5 ms·

Brain fog after Covid-19 has similarities to ‘chemo brain’ in humans and mice

169 points by amichail 3y ago

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
belltaco 3y ago
> Because other viral infections can cause brain inflammation, the researchers studied brain changes in mice after mild respiratory infection with H1N1 influenza, the viral strain that caused the 2009 “swine flu” and 1918 “Spanish flu” pandemics. The goal was to compare cognition-linked molecular changes after H1N1 to those seen after COVID-19. One week after infection, the H1N1 flu and SARS-CoV-2 infections caused similar patterns of cytokine elevation in the central nervous system, microglial reactivity and loss of oligodendrocytes in white matter. But seven weeks after infection, although the cytokine profiles had some overlap, including increased inflammatory chemokine CCL11, they differed. Effects on the hippocampus were similar in the two types of infections, but microglial reactivity and oligodendrocyte loss in white matter were not present after seven weeks following H1N1 infection. So it's not just a flu.
- nradov 3y ago
  It would be more interesting to compare SARS-CoV-2 with endemic common cold coronaviruses. In particular HCoV-OC43 appears to be quite similar in terms of genetics and typical symptoms. https://doi.org/10.1111/1751-7915.13889 https://doi.org/10.1111/1751-7915.13889
- oilchange 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - ragequittah 3y ago
    I'd ask the same question to you. What's your angle? Why minimize when there's so much evidence of various harms? Why attack someone trying to point out that people underreacting/comparing it to less problematic viruses were probably wrong? My thing is that I have a heart condition that is highly exacerbated by covid, so people treating it with no caution (sneezing in my face these days, no care at all anymore) is very worrying for people like me. A flu, however, I'm totally fine with catching.
    - oilchange 3y ago
      [dead]
- Gibbon1 3y ago
  When I was trying to dig through the chaff eventually I found the magic phrase viral tropism. It's complicated. You have the ability of the virus to infect particular tissues. Sometimes viruses have a primary and secondary attack. What the viruses life cycle is in the host. Chicken pox's isn't influenza's. There is the ability of the virus to evade and suppress the immune response. And finally you have the point that viruses can trigger autoimmune responses. I saw lots of back and forth about neurological stuff. Best response was from someone that studies neurology that pointed out that 'the brain' is made up of dozens of cell types. Viral damage or an autoimmune attack on any of those can be very ungood. Also I think about 50-60 years ago the medical profession lost interest in respiratory viruses. So much information is absent, out dated, or the result of 50 years of telephone.
  - trenchgun 3y ago
    > Also I think about 50-60 years ago the medical profession lost interest in respiratory viruses. So much information is absent, out dated, or the result of 50 years of telephone. Wait what? Really?
    - Gibbon1 3y ago
      You do a literature search which I did years before the pandemic and there is almost nothing.
bookofjoe 3y ago
>Could fused neurons explain COVID-19’s ‘brain fog’? https://www.science.org/content/article/could-fused-neurons-explain-covid-19-s-brain-fog https://www.science.org/content/article/could-fused-neurons-...
sparrish 3y ago
I always thought "chemo brain" was just a cop out until my mother had her bout with breast cancer. She was a very opinionated and capable woman. Now she can't carry a conversation or remember where she put her socks. It's been nearly 4 years and she still ain't firing on all cylinders. It killed the cancer but the cognitive cost was great.
- cs02rm0 3y ago
  Sorry to hear that. My mum's had noticeable cognitive decline from breast cancer chemo too, physically more frail from it too. Fortunately, sort of, she mostly thinks it's my dad who's lost a few marbles and doesn't seem to realise it's her, or at least is still too stubborn to admit it. And her grandchildren not only still have their grandmother but they don't yet see (or understand) the decline which is perhaps the best blessing of all. But it's still sad to have to see.
- belltaco 3y ago
  > I always thought "chemo brain" was just a cop out until my mother had her bout with breast cancer Why would you or anyone think it was a cop out?
  - klyrs 3y ago
    Our culture puts such a strong emphasis on self-reliance that people who experience conditions that are "in their head," or even just poorly understood, are broadly perceived as lazy and dishonest. It's often only when it hits close to home that people are able to overcome this bias.
    - FractalHQ 3y ago
      Sounds a lot like my experience with severe ADHD.
hnuser847 3y ago
The problem with the concept of covid-induced brain fog is that the symptoms of brain fog are indistinguishable from general anxiety. I'm still not convinced that brain fog is a legitimate, medical outcome of having covid, as opposed to a culturally-conditioned response that's dependent on one's perception of the severity of covid. Anecdotally, among the people I know in real life, the only ones that have complained about post-covid brain fog are those that already tend to be hypochondriacs or doomers.
- hilbertseries 3y ago
  Long covid is very real and is not anxiety. There have been studies linking post covid fatigue and conditions to viral persistence and micro clotting. This type of post covid is just anxiety discourse is incredibly harmful.
  - Llamamoe 3y ago
    This kind of discourse has been par for the course for as long as "mental illness" has existed. I don't know a single chronically ill person who hasn't gone through being undermined and treated this way.
  - nradov 3y ago
    Post viral syndrome has been been recognized for decades and linked to a wide variety of different viruses. So although the exact mechanisms aren't clearly understood there's no reason to think that SARS-CoV-2 couldn't cause similar effects. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1710789/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1710789/ But in terms of specific symptoms, a recent study found only a weak correlation between confirmed COVID-19 and brain fog. Other persistent symptoms such as anosmia are much more common. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41591-022-01909-w https://doi.org/10.1038/s41591-022-01909-w
    - Madmallard 3y ago
      This is just a case where the tools we have for examination are lacking and subjective symptom description barring specific indicators is pretty useless from a research standpoint.
glonq 3y ago
Today that "chemo brain" is a thing. Unfortunatey, last week I learned that I'm starting chemo in a few weeks. I had hoped to WFH during rads & chemo in a slightly diminished capacity. Should I expect very dimished?
- jabroni_salad 3y ago
  You are going to be so tired, you won't even be able to sleep.
- tapland 3y ago
  Not necessarily but you should be prepared for it.
- MyneOutside 3y ago
  It depends. I had Hodgkin's Lymphoma and had chemo for about 5 months over a year ago. Everyone reacts differently as some have various symptoms that can be worse or better than others. Some people are miserable in bed while others it not so bad and tolerable. It can also vary on the type of chemo treatment you are receiving. Hang in there!
- mgr86 3y ago
  My father developed a bad rash approximately a year ago that won't go away. He also developed his first ever bloodclot. The rash could be from the eliquis, but his Dr thinks its from chemo. His lung cancer is successfully in remission for now, but the stage 4 COPD doesn't care. Anyhow, I learned recently that a rash is one of the more common side effects. Good luck with your treatment.
- astura 3y ago
  You won't know - Everyone reacts differently and there's different chemos. I do know someone who had very few side effects from chemo and worked full time the entire time at an active job without any real issues - logics/scheduling was the biggest problem for him.
- joe5150 3y ago
  While you're undergoing cancer treatment, you're going to be too fatigued to worry much about your cognitive performance. I wouldn't expect to be able to distinguish lower productivity as a result of "chemo brain" from lower productivity as a result of all the non-cognitive side effects until several weeks after your active treatment is done. Taking off as much time as you're able to rest on and after treatment days will go a long way to helping you feel better the rest of the time.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
b800h 3y ago
"In mice"
- dang 3y ago
  Inmiced. Thanks!
  - 2301421898 3y ago
    Btw, the study looked at both human and mice brains.
    - dang 3y ago
      Ok, we've put humans in there too. Thanks!
- pieresqi 3y ago
  [dead]
- 2301421898 3y ago
  > relied on studies of mice with mild SARS-CoV-2 infection and postmortem human brain tissue collected early in the pandemic. The study looked at both mice and human brains, and observed similar effects in both.
antisthenes 3y ago
I wonder how this compares to damage from impact brain trauma? And I wonder if there will be some kind of long-term disability assistance for people who suffer from these syndromes.
- giraffe_lady 3y ago
  nah but canada is expanding MAID to cover the homelessness you'll end up in due to not being able to work. kinda surprised they beat the US to that one but I'm sure we'll catch up.
Mobil1 3y ago
[flagged]
nocsi 3y ago
Not to be confused w/ "pregnancy brain" that occurs during and up to 1 year after pregnancy in women. https://www.nature.com/articles/nn.4458 https://www.nature.com/articles/nn.4458
caycep 3y ago
I wonder if parallels to the HSVrelated viral infections and association w/ Alzheimer's and other dementias...leaky BBB?
- nick_ 3y ago
  Yes it's possible https://content.iospress.com/articles/journal-of-alzheimers-disease/jad200986 https://content.iospress.com/articles/journal-of-alzheimers-...

169 points by amichail 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

> Because other viral infections can cause brain inflammation, the researchers studied brain changes in mice after mild respiratory infection with H1N1 influenza, the viral strain that caused the 2009 “swine flu” and 1918 “Spanish flu” pandemics. The goal was to compare cognition-linked molecular changes after H1N1 to those seen after COVID-19. One week after infection, the H1N1 flu and SARS-CoV-2 infections caused similar patterns of cytokine elevation in the central nervous system, microglial reactivity and loss of oligodendrocytes in white matter. But seven weeks after infection, although the cytokine profiles had some overlap, including increased inflammatory chemokine CCL11, they differed. Effects on the hippocampus were similar in the two types of infections, but microglial reactivity and oligodendrocyte loss in white matter were not present after seven weeks following H1N1 infection. So it's not just a flu.

nradov 3y ago
It would be more interesting to compare SARS-CoV-2 with endemic common cold coronaviruses. In particular HCoV-OC43 appears to be quite similar in terms of genetics and typical symptoms. https://doi.org/10.1111/1751-7915.13889 https://doi.org/10.1111/1751-7915.13889
oilchange 3y ago
[flagged]
- ragequittah 3y ago
  I'd ask the same question to you. What's your angle? Why minimize when there's so much evidence of various harms? Why attack someone trying to point out that people underreacting/comparing it to less problematic viruses were probably wrong? My thing is that I have a heart condition that is highly exacerbated by covid, so people treating it with no caution (sneezing in my face these days, no care at all anymore) is very worrying for people like me. A flu, however, I'm totally fine with catching.
  - oilchange 3y ago
    [dead]
Gibbon1 3y ago
When I was trying to dig through the chaff eventually I found the magic phrase viral tropism. It's complicated. You have the ability of the virus to infect particular tissues. Sometimes viruses have a primary and secondary attack. What the viruses life cycle is in the host. Chicken pox's isn't influenza's. There is the ability of the virus to evade and suppress the immune response. And finally you have the point that viruses can trigger autoimmune responses. I saw lots of back and forth about neurological stuff. Best response was from someone that studies neurology that pointed out that 'the brain' is made up of dozens of cell types. Viral damage or an autoimmune attack on any of those can be very ungood. Also I think about 50-60 years ago the medical profession lost interest in respiratory viruses. So much information is absent, out dated, or the result of 50 years of telephone.
- trenchgun 3y ago
  > Also I think about 50-60 years ago the medical profession lost interest in respiratory viruses. So much information is absent, out dated, or the result of 50 years of telephone. Wait what? Really?
  - Gibbon1 3y ago
    You do a literature search which I did years before the pandemic and there is almost nothing.

bookofjoe 3y ago

>Could fused neurons explain COVID-19’s ‘brain fog’? https://www.science.org/content/article/could-fused-neurons-explain-covid-19-s-brain-fog https://www.science.org/content/article/could-fused-neurons-...

sparrish 3y ago

I always thought "chemo brain" was just a cop out until my mother had her bout with breast cancer. She was a very opinionated and capable woman. Now she can't carry a conversation or remember where she put her socks. It's been nearly 4 years and she still ain't firing on all cylinders. It killed the cancer but the cognitive cost was great.

cs02rm0 3y ago
Sorry to hear that. My mum's had noticeable cognitive decline from breast cancer chemo too, physically more frail from it too. Fortunately, sort of, she mostly thinks it's my dad who's lost a few marbles and doesn't seem to realise it's her, or at least is still too stubborn to admit it. And her grandchildren not only still have their grandmother but they don't yet see (or understand) the decline which is perhaps the best blessing of all. But it's still sad to have to see.
belltaco 3y ago
> I always thought "chemo brain" was just a cop out until my mother had her bout with breast cancer Why would you or anyone think it was a cop out?
- klyrs 3y ago
  Our culture puts such a strong emphasis on self-reliance that people who experience conditions that are "in their head," or even just poorly understood, are broadly perceived as lazy and dishonest. It's often only when it hits close to home that people are able to overcome this bias.
  - FractalHQ 3y ago
    Sounds a lot like my experience with severe ADHD.

hnuser847 3y ago

The problem with the concept of covid-induced brain fog is that the symptoms of brain fog are indistinguishable from general anxiety. I'm still not convinced that brain fog is a legitimate, medical outcome of having covid, as opposed to a culturally-conditioned response that's dependent on one's perception of the severity of covid. Anecdotally, among the people I know in real life, the only ones that have complained about post-covid brain fog are those that already tend to be hypochondriacs or doomers.

hilbertseries 3y ago
Long covid is very real and is not anxiety. There have been studies linking post covid fatigue and conditions to viral persistence and micro clotting. This type of post covid is just anxiety discourse is incredibly harmful.
- Llamamoe 3y ago
  This kind of discourse has been par for the course for as long as "mental illness" has existed. I don't know a single chronically ill person who hasn't gone through being undermined and treated this way.
- nradov 3y ago
  Post viral syndrome has been been recognized for decades and linked to a wide variety of different viruses. So although the exact mechanisms aren't clearly understood there's no reason to think that SARS-CoV-2 couldn't cause similar effects. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1710789/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1710789/ But in terms of specific symptoms, a recent study found only a weak correlation between confirmed COVID-19 and brain fog. Other persistent symptoms such as anosmia are much more common. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41591-022-01909-w https://doi.org/10.1038/s41591-022-01909-w
  - Madmallard 3y ago
    This is just a case where the tools we have for examination are lacking and subjective symptom description barring specific indicators is pretty useless from a research standpoint.

glonq 3y ago

Today that "chemo brain" is a thing. Unfortunatey, last week I learned that I'm starting chemo in a few weeks. I had hoped to WFH during rads & chemo in a slightly diminished capacity. Should I expect very dimished?

jabroni_salad 3y ago
You are going to be so tired, you won't even be able to sleep.
tapland 3y ago
Not necessarily but you should be prepared for it.
MyneOutside 3y ago
It depends. I had Hodgkin's Lymphoma and had chemo for about 5 months over a year ago. Everyone reacts differently as some have various symptoms that can be worse or better than others. Some people are miserable in bed while others it not so bad and tolerable. It can also vary on the type of chemo treatment you are receiving. Hang in there!
mgr86 3y ago
My father developed a bad rash approximately a year ago that won't go away. He also developed his first ever bloodclot. The rash could be from the eliquis, but his Dr thinks its from chemo. His lung cancer is successfully in remission for now, but the stage 4 COPD doesn't care. Anyhow, I learned recently that a rash is one of the more common side effects. Good luck with your treatment.
astura 3y ago
You won't know - Everyone reacts differently and there's different chemos. I do know someone who had very few side effects from chemo and worked full time the entire time at an active job without any real issues - logics/scheduling was the biggest problem for him.
joe5150 3y ago
While you're undergoing cancer treatment, you're going to be too fatigued to worry much about your cognitive performance. I wouldn't expect to be able to distinguish lower productivity as a result of "chemo brain" from lower productivity as a result of all the non-cognitive side effects until several weeks after your active treatment is done. Taking off as much time as you're able to rest on and after treatment days will go a long way to helping you feel better the rest of the time.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

b800h 3y ago

"In mice"

dang 3y ago
Inmiced. Thanks!
- 2301421898 3y ago
  Btw, the study looked at both human and mice brains.
  - dang 3y ago
    Ok, we've put humans in there too. Thanks!
pieresqi 3y ago
[dead]
2301421898 3y ago
> relied on studies of mice with mild SARS-CoV-2 infection and postmortem human brain tissue collected early in the pandemic. The study looked at both mice and human brains, and observed similar effects in both.

antisthenes 3y ago

I wonder how this compares to damage from impact brain trauma? And I wonder if there will be some kind of long-term disability assistance for people who suffer from these syndromes.

giraffe_lady 3y ago
nah but canada is expanding MAID to cover the homelessness you'll end up in due to not being able to work. kinda surprised they beat the US to that one but I'm sure we'll catch up.

Mobil1 3y ago

[flagged]

nocsi 3y ago

Not to be confused w/ "pregnancy brain" that occurs during and up to 1 year after pregnancy in women. https://www.nature.com/articles/nn.4458 https://www.nature.com/articles/nn.4458

caycep 3y ago

I wonder if parallels to the HSVrelated viral infections and association w/ Alzheimer's and other dementias...leaky BBB?

nick_ 3y ago
Yes it's possible https://content.iospress.com/articles/journal-of-alzheimers-disease/jad200986 https://content.iospress.com/articles/journal-of-alzheimers-...