5 ms·

No disrespect to Peter Zijlstra, I'm sure he has been a lot more impactful on the open source community than I will ever be but his immmediate reply caught my a

by eknkc 3y ago

No disrespect to Peter Zijlstra, I'm sure he has been a lot more impactful on the open source community than I will ever be but his immmediate reply caught my attention: >> [Being tracked in this bug which contains much more detail: >> https://gitlab.com/qemu-project/qemu/-/issues/1696 https://gitlab.com/qemu-project/qemu/-/issues/1696 ] > Can I please just get the detail in mail instead of having to go look at random websites? Maybe it's me but if I did boot boot linux 292.612 times to find a bug, you might as well click a link to a repository of a major open source project on a major git hosting service. Is it really that weird to ask people online to check a website? Maybe I don't know the etiquette of these mail lists so this is a geniune question. I guess it is better to keep all conversation in a single place, would that be the intention?

CommitSyn 3y ago
I am only guessing here, but I assume it's so the content of the mailing list archive remains. If a linked website goes down or changes at any time in the future, then that archive is no longer fulfilling its purpose of archiving important information.
- zxexz 3y ago
  I'm pretty much 100% sure that's the reason, and a good one at that. Mailing lists are the lifeblood of a lot of big open source projects.
- sidfthec 3y ago
  The irony being that he presumably wants more information on the mailing list to keep a good archive, while not giving enough information for people to understand that and follow the advice later.
- kevincox 3y ago
  If that was the reason it would have been best to state that in the request. > Can I please just get the detail in mail so that it is archived with the list? Of course you can't expect every email written to be perfect, it is generally treated as an informal medium in these settings. But stating the reason helps people understand your motives and serve them better.
  - enedil 3y ago
    I think that hardcode kernel devs already know the reasons, and there is no point in raising it again. For you it might seem like a random requirement, but it's because of lack of familiarity.
    - Szpadel 3y ago
      i think in that case explaination is needed even more, if you are hardcore dev, then no one need to remind you about such rule, on the other hand if you are not so familiar with those rules yet, explanation would be very helpful
  - hedora 3y ago
    It was completely obvious to me, and I'm not a Linux committer. Any bug of the form: Hi, I'm sending this via official channels, but see [external thing]. Is going to immediately bitrot. For instance, in stack overflow, for something like 10% of answers, you'll see people saying to explain what a link says instead of just linking.
    - bonzini 3y ago
      That's why you preserve everything that's useful in the commit message for the fix.
- cjsawyer 3y ago
  This is the same logic in avoiding link-only answers on Stack Overflow. They’re both good rules.
- e12e 3y ago
  Not only the link itself - but if the email body /attachments contains the details - it is also easier to write a good reply by selectively quoting from the mail. So it isn't just for the first mail, but for the follow-up discussion thread(s).
actionfromafar 3y ago
Maybe it’s so the mail threads keep the full records.
aidenn0 3y ago
My suspicion is that it's not about reading the bug info once, but having the information in the mailing-list, which is the archive of record for kernel bugs.
dale_glass 3y ago
It's LKML. The volume of that list is insane, and technical discussion is very much the point, so they'd expect you to explain the problem right there, where people can quote parts of it, and comment on each part separately.
- nroets 3y ago
  Many of the participants may also be reading it in a terminal emulator with no web browser nearby.
  - rblatz 3y ago
    Are they on a PDP-11 or a dumb terminal?
    - treeman79 3y ago
      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynx_(web_browser) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynx_(web_browser) Used this daily for many years. Was great when connecting to the internet was only practical via a shell.
      - Dylan16807 3y ago
        Did you try it on this site? All of the comments/updates on the bug report are loaded by javascript and don't work for me in lynx or elinks.
        aabbcc1241 3y ago
        Do you mean hacker news as "this site"? HN seems to be server side rendered, so it should display well without Javascript.
        jwilk 3y ago
        I think they meant <https://gitlab.com/qemu-project/qemu/-/issues/1696 https://gitlab.com/qemu-project/qemu/-/issues/1696>.
rwmj 3y ago
I was a bit short in the original description, but luckily we've since reached an understanding on how to try to reproduce this bug. Unfortunately he's not been able to reproduce it, even though I can reproduce it on several machines here (and it's been independently reproduced by other people at Red Hat). We do know that it happens much less frequently on Intel hardware than AMD hardware (likely just because of subtle timing differences), and he's of course working at Intel.
dezgeg 3y ago
Many kernel people really are stuck in their ways like that. They don't want to leave their Mutt (e-mail client) at any cost. I recall some are even to this day running using a text console (ie. no X11 or Wayland).
- donalhunt 3y ago
  Don't blame them. I'm fed up of browsers using gigs of ram to display kb of data. :(
sigzero 3y ago
Yes, he should have just went and looked there. Github is not a "random website".
- mulmen 3y ago
  The link is to gitlab, not github. But any website is inappropriate in this context because it’s not permanent. The email list is, at least as far as the project is concerned.
mulmen 3y ago
Asking to click a link in an email is unreasonable in this context. The email list is the official channel and project participants are expected to use it. They are not expected to have a web browser. The popularity of the linked site is irrelevant. Part of filing good bug reports is understanding a project’s communication style. A link to supplementary information is fine. But like a Stack Overflow answer the email should stand on its own.

by eknkc 3y ago

CommitSyn 3y ago

I am only guessing here, but I assume it's so the content of the mailing list archive remains. If a linked website goes down or changes at any time in the future, then that archive is no longer fulfilling its purpose of archiving important information.

zxexz 3y ago
I'm pretty much 100% sure that's the reason, and a good one at that. Mailing lists are the lifeblood of a lot of big open source projects.
sidfthec 3y ago
The irony being that he presumably wants more information on the mailing list to keep a good archive, while not giving enough information for people to understand that and follow the advice later.
kevincox 3y ago
If that was the reason it would have been best to state that in the request. > Can I please just get the detail in mail so that it is archived with the list? Of course you can't expect every email written to be perfect, it is generally treated as an informal medium in these settings. But stating the reason helps people understand your motives and serve them better.
- enedil 3y ago
  I think that hardcode kernel devs already know the reasons, and there is no point in raising it again. For you it might seem like a random requirement, but it's because of lack of familiarity.
  - Szpadel 3y ago
    i think in that case explaination is needed even more, if you are hardcore dev, then no one need to remind you about such rule, on the other hand if you are not so familiar with those rules yet, explanation would be very helpful
- hedora 3y ago
  It was completely obvious to me, and I'm not a Linux committer. Any bug of the form: Hi, I'm sending this via official channels, but see [external thing]. Is going to immediately bitrot. For instance, in stack overflow, for something like 10% of answers, you'll see people saying to explain what a link says instead of just linking.
  - bonzini 3y ago
    That's why you preserve everything that's useful in the commit message for the fix.
cjsawyer 3y ago
This is the same logic in avoiding link-only answers on Stack Overflow. They’re both good rules.
e12e 3y ago
Not only the link itself - but if the email body /attachments contains the details - it is also easier to write a good reply by selectively quoting from the mail. So it isn't just for the first mail, but for the follow-up discussion thread(s).

actionfromafar 3y ago

Maybe it’s so the mail threads keep the full records.

aidenn0 3y ago

My suspicion is that it's not about reading the bug info once, but having the information in the mailing-list, which is the archive of record for kernel bugs.

dale_glass 3y ago

It's LKML. The volume of that list is insane, and technical discussion is very much the point, so they'd expect you to explain the problem right there, where people can quote parts of it, and comment on each part separately.

nroets 3y ago
Many of the participants may also be reading it in a terminal emulator with no web browser nearby.
- rblatz 3y ago
  Are they on a PDP-11 or a dumb terminal?
  - treeman79 3y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynx_(web_browser) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynx_(web_browser) Used this daily for many years. Was great when connecting to the internet was only practical via a shell.
    - Dylan16807 3y ago
      Did you try it on this site? All of the comments/updates on the bug report are loaded by javascript and don't work for me in lynx or elinks.
      - aabbcc1241 3y ago
        Do you mean hacker news as "this site"? HN seems to be server side rendered, so it should display well without Javascript.
        jwilk 3y ago
        I think they meant <https://gitlab.com/qemu-project/qemu/-/issues/1696 https://gitlab.com/qemu-project/qemu/-/issues/1696>.

rwmj 3y ago

I was a bit short in the original description, but luckily we've since reached an understanding on how to try to reproduce this bug. Unfortunately he's not been able to reproduce it, even though I can reproduce it on several machines here (and it's been independently reproduced by other people at Red Hat). We do know that it happens much less frequently on Intel hardware than AMD hardware (likely just because of subtle timing differences), and he's of course working at Intel.

dezgeg 3y ago

Many kernel people really are stuck in their ways like that. They don't want to leave their Mutt (e-mail client) at any cost. I recall some are even to this day running using a text console (ie. no X11 or Wayland).

donalhunt 3y ago
Don't blame them. I'm fed up of browsers using gigs of ram to display kb of data. :(

sigzero 3y ago

Yes, he should have just went and looked there. Github is not a "random website".

mulmen 3y ago
The link is to gitlab, not github. But any website is inappropriate in this context because it’s not permanent. The email list is, at least as far as the project is concerned.

mulmen 3y ago

Asking to click a link in an email is unreasonable in this context. The email list is the official channel and project participants are expected to use it. They are not expected to have a web browser. The popularity of the linked site is irrelevant. Part of filing good bug reports is understanding a project’s communication style. A link to supplementary information is fine. But like a Stack Overflow answer the email should stand on its own.