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I moved to Germany and regret it
- Zetobal 3y agoI wonder how the experience would be with a German speaking very little English in a flyover state. Korea is really small so you can always find a community you "belong" to in a 100 miles radius. If you are in Ottenberg you are in the middle of a national park with no big cities around.
- jleyank 3y agoAsk somebody from the west coast or north of Maryland how they were treated in the (deep) south, particularly if they’re not of Northern European extraction and you might get similar stories. People dislike difference, and some are just more open about it. Ask Okinawan’s about the us military presence.
- b3orn 3y agoOtterberg, not Ottenberg, it's 5km north of Kaiserslautern which has a population of 100k. In a 100 mile radius, 160km, you find Frankfurt am Main, Stuttgart, Luxembourg and Strasbourg, hardly the middle of nowhere.
- mereum 3y agoTotally relate to their experience as an expat in Germany. The microaggressions can really pile up and cause frustration. In last year's oktoberfest, a random drunk German dude (with his gang) was shouting racial slurs at us (group of Indians) to get out of our seat and bus. we just switched places to the front seat of the bus. The other passengers were totally unbothered by this and remained silent. I don't expect them to defend us or fight a random drunk dude for us but atleast say something in solidarity to us. It felt really powerless and shitty to be a victim of such blatant racism.
- FranzFerdiNaN 3y agoThey most likely didn't say anything out of fear of becoming the target of the group. What happened to you sucked, but groups of men that are shouting racist things and are obviously drunk are just a huge risk for anyone.
- mereum 3y agoI totally understand, which is why I expected them to say something comforting TO us (after we switched seats), not the aggressors
- jleyank 3y agoCalifornian misses California, wants things to be like California. I can see how this would cause heartburn in smaller-town Germany, particularly if there’s not a reservoir of good will towards the military presence there. But I suspect it would cause similar heartburn in a smaller town in the Deep South or New England. And being removed from family and social ties can be crippling if you’re used to strong connections. Going “elsewhere” is hard if you can’t or won’t embrace the differences. People can tell when somebody’s not comfortable which makes they less hospitable. And “you look/sound different”, unfortunately, occurs everywhere. Odd the military doesn’t have spouse/family programs as they’ve been moving people all over the world for decades and facing similar problems. There’s a whole lot of rules and restrictions to live as an expat and that’s also where the military should help out. Can’t retain if the family’s dissatisfied.
- abofh 3y agoSo I've been living in Europe for the last few years after leaving SF and haven't experienced any of this. Are there frustrations when moving to a new country? Absolutely. If you go in expecting every local government agent to be grateful for your USD shekels, you'll be sorely disappointed when you find out they'll make 10x as much effort to speak English as you do to speak their language - but 0 x 10 is still zero. But if you're polite, persistent, and committed to integrating - I've never failed to find a welcoming community in at least three different countries now. In truth, my least favorite people to meet now are "American Expats" or instagram influencers - at least fresh ones. You've been abroad for ten years? Let's talk, you probably have some perspective. You're still trying to figure out where Trader Joe's is? You're probably not that interesting. If you're traveling - enjoy, be polite, you'll be fine. If you're _moving_, it's on you to make the effort and be a part of the community, not the communities job to acclimate to you. Join a few meetups, facebook groups or whatever the latest trend is - meet people with like minded interests, and it works fine. If you're surprised to find occasional micro-aggressions in small towns, well... bless your heart.
- ElfinTrousers 3y ago> If you're surprised to find occasional micro-aggressions in small towns, well... bless your heart. There's reasons plenty of people prefer cities over large towns. At least in the city, people will have the decency to just directly tell you to go fuck yourself. Saves time.
- dougmwne 3y agoBizarre. What a very California thing to write. What was this person expecting exactly? A red carpet? A personal guide? Gift wrapped tax forms? And honestly, how is California so much more easy and welcoming? When I tried to move to SF, it felt pretty damn unwelcoming to me with multiple people telling me the city was “full,” even old friends. News flash, moving to a new country takes curiosity, patience, flexibility and hard work.
- beardyw 3y agoThanks, you saved me the trouble writing that. It's like Trip Advisor "They don't sell hot dogs".
- busssard 3y agoThe author could have written about churros "I bought a churro, i didnt like it, not even the cinnamon flavor could change my mind"
- lumiukko 3y agoShe is also writing from an incredibly privileged point of view. Taking language courses for 500USD and more is not something most people can afford and is really the exception. There are many courses for foreigners, some are even free or subsidized by the government.
- dontupvoteme 3y agoAs someone who learned German, forgot it and re-learned it, it's also a terrible method to learn a foreign language, unless you're really motivated by speaking with other newbies. The best approach with the most evidence for sucess is Comprehensible Input[-1], which requires nothing more than access to content you want to consume in the language of your choice Ironically this was the most helpful youtube and twitch ever were for me, since I find mainstream German TV to be pretty bad (I find the same, or worse, with American TV to be fair)
- ahartmetz 3y ago
- FranzFerdiNaN 3y agoThis is the most American thing i've read in a long while. Seems that she wants a small German town to be a large American town and is shocked that it isnt.
- raverbashing 3y agoSounds like 1/3 of it being unprepared (and a bit unwilling to change), 1/3 being a small town and 1/3 being just Germany > Each course in the sanctioned six-course program can cost upwards of $500 apiece and requires almost as much time as a full-time job. Why are you doing a 'sanctioned' course if you don't intend on staying? Just go with Duolingo? But if it has a high number of hours per week then $500 sounds ok > In-person shopping takes forever because there aren't big-box stores > certain products, such as electronics, cost considerably more than in the US. That's... weird. I never got the 'considerably more' unless you're importing something directly maybe, or maybe it is the kind of Walmart knicknack
- xienze 3y ago> That's... weird. I never got the 'considerably more' unless you're importing something directly maybe You're kidding, right? Just look at literally every time a new Apple product is announced on HN, people complain about how much more expensive it is in than in the US. For example, the base model Macbook Air M2 is $1299+tax (on the HIGH end, that tax could be 10%, so $1429) and 1599 Euros in Germany, which is $1730. $300 difference, that's pretty significant. And Apple isn't the only company that prices things that way.
- plantroon 3y agoIn EU the store provides 2 years warranty by law. And you can return any product bought online within 14 days. They cannot sell it as new again. That's the reason for the cost. Now when you consider that eastern Europe has these prices too, where salaries barely crossed 1k euros per month (that's gross, in both senses of the word). And generally reading how people make 200k and similar salaries seems just unfathomable to me xD it's not like we have cheaper stuff here, there are cases when groceries are cheaper in Germany and Switzerland than in eastern Europe. Same goes for rent, at least outside big cities.
- raverbashing 3y agoTaxes and other factors aside, Apple is happy to price their products in a more profit-oriented way (let's put it like this)
- teekert 3y agoI totally get that she feels unwelcome in a small village. I think even Germans from a large city may feel it? I'm from the Netherlands and recently moved from a middle to large city in the Netherlands (here that's about 120K inhabitants) to a village of 2000 inhabitants. People here generally don't speak any English, and are much more conservative in their opinions (i.e. blackface must be black, you outsiders uncomfortable with our 100 years old traditions should just stay away from here), imagine her moving here... I think there are probably towns in the US where she will feel the same btw. Is it really about Germany as the title suggests? Feels like a generalization.
- dontupvoteme 3y agoIs Zwarte Piet still common there?
- foo_foo_can_do 3y agoLast i saw the government would no longer subsidize any sinterklaas (NL version of xmas) event or parade where the traditional Piet costume was used. They now dress as "Soot Piet" and instead of blackface it's more of a coal-worker-after-a-long-day look.
- teekert 3y agoDefinitely he or she is still very black here. In many places zwarte piet now has charcoal smudges over the face, because she or he climbs in and out of chimneys to deliver presents to kids. Strange fact, on Curacao zwarte Piet is painted extra black and Sinterklaas is painted white [0], at least on some occasions. [0] https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=curacao+zwarte+piet&iax=images&ia=images&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fimages0.persgroep.net%2Frcs%2FckuWo3OgnwE3DEqa2mz9cPHXwSw%2Fdiocontent%2F72925122%2F_crop%2F0%2F749%2F1580%2F893%2F_fitwidth%2F763%3FappId%3De9b4e2a1869038ffcaf318a6d1463b0b%26quality%3D0.8 https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=curacao+zwarte+piet&iax=ima... Original black face will go away (which makes me happy), but not over night.
- piva00 3y agoNot only a small village in Germany, which would by itself be already pretty hard to feel welcomed if you don't speak the language, but a village that has the nuisance of a foreign military base nearby. The villagers probably have been dealing with all sorts of issues from that, then comes a new American, same as all the old ones, wanting to chit-chat and talk about the weather... Newsflash: Germans might not be into that kind of small talk.
- jxidjhdhdhdhfhf 3y agoNot a fan of the whiny tone. It's not anyone else's job to make you feel welcome. The same goes for immigrants anywhere, including America.
- yaky 3y agoAs an immigrant to the US myself, it took me close to 10 years to “Americanize” and get adjusted to the US cultures and norms. And this was while I was living in a diverse city. Expecting to adjust to a new country in 18 months in a small conservative town is unrealistic at best.
- dontupvoteme 3y agoI'm an American in Germany and most of what she says I find invalid, sorry. California's still there if you want that.
- stevage 3y agoAre you of Asian appearance though?
- dontupvoteme 3y agoNo, unless you count slavic as Asian. Mostly commonly I am thought (after they hear the accent) to be Irish - I'm a mutt of every country which can't get a tan. Anecdotally but I have a lot of expat friends here (large city which isn't Berlin) and the only ones who spoke of racism from Germans were the Turks (which is quite ironic, since the people they look down upon are more kurds than turks.. but this is another can of worms)
- luguenth 3y agoCan you elaborate on what you mean by that "the people they look down upon are more kurds than turks"?
- dontupvoteme 3y agoYes, but I will be wrong, so I will attempt to be brief. Turkey was built upon coerced secular westernization of a dying empire, to turn the sick man of Europe into a Progressive and Modern state, by any means Necessary. It is a country forged in War and in Peace by Atatürk, a man who even the most staunch western racists still often pay respects to. This is a nation which, in its infancy gave women the right to vote before most western countries (it took the swiss until 91..), which banned the wearing of the veil on women in public spaces, whose very word for Secularism is taken directly from French (Laïcité), which is an extreme form of secularism even in the West. They have swung the full gamut of political beliefs, even to the point that eastern devout muslim farmers started voting communist But in very rough generality -- The Kurdish people have most always been on the, "backward, islamic", etc side which the west looks down upon when painting with a wide brush, whereas I find more of the ideas of Tolerance and Egalitarianism, etc in some of my Turkish friends from the west coast cities than in native Europeans. Obviously there are issues like Cyprus, and the refugee crisis really polluted the thought pool here, but this is just my 2c.
- wrp 3y agoThis was so snowflake-y, it really made me cringe. Please don't think she is typical of Americans abroad or even military families. I've lived in Korea over many years and have known several Koreans who studied or worked in Germany. They all told me they absolutely loved it there and were sorry to leave. While Germany doesn't run as smoothly as Korea (almost no place does), the general quality of life is comparable.
- richbell 3y agoThe article should really be called I moved to small German town and regret it.
- manish_gill 3y agoNot really. Everything she described - the feeling of being unwelcome, comments about your language skills (even when you're learning and trying), being stared at, the utterly ridiculous bureaucracy - all of these experiences are true. Even in a big, supposed modern city like Berlin. Even when interacting with young people. Source: Been living in Berlin since '19
- dontupvoteme 3y agoI have not experienced any of these in HH. Even the bureaucracy wasn't that bad honestly.
- sillyfluke 3y agoNote to Germans: Do not even attempt to defend your country's hospitality industry. It is goddamn atrocious and often times worthy of a Little Britain skit.
- dontupvoteme 3y agoWould you kindly elaborate?
- McEngineer 3y agoI'm german. Berlin is the worst place that you can land in germany. Germans who come to berlin get a complete culture shock. There is "Berliner Schnauze", it describes that people just hurl slurs around on the first occasion. Someone from berlin told me that it is "Not holding back your emotions and being truthful" - he phrased it very positively. Berlin is one of the few citys in germany where a large organized crime scene exists and is considered massively unsafe by german standarts. Young people are even worse since they have normalized all of this. Try going to Karlsruhe, Göttingen or other univerity cities. They are the big modern cities of germany and you will feel accepted there as an obvious foreigner. ("big city" by german standarts). In addition, being obese is a good way to make a bad impression on germans. Since one of the biggest national virues here is (self) discipline. Hope that this helped some people form a better understanding.
- throwaway22032 3y agoThis is a super weird article. She looks like a typical American tourist in the photo, even if we ignore the camera etc she's the largest person in the picture. Of course people look at her, she's novel to them. "Microaggression" is an attempt to reframe this as being an issue with Germans, not her. As the outsider it's on you to belong, not the other way around. Basically all of her complaints are classic "American on tour". Genuinely difficult to distinguish from satire.
- oofnik 3y agoWow, it's rare to have American hubris summed up in one article so succinctly. The total absence of self-awareness almost convinced me that this was satire.
- dontupvoteme 3y agoThis is more of a west coast phenomenon. (we employ the pejorative coastie where i am from) Us flyovers would span the gamut more from "Wow It's so clean" to people who might just be massive neo-nazis..
- dkmn 3y agoYes, this sort of solipsism thrives on the coasts where people are So Very Sure how Very Smart and Very Correct they are. Not that all US coastal people and cultures are like that, far from it, but the level of population and prosperity that breeds the resulting insularity comes along with it.
- stevage 3y agoThere was probably a good article in there somewhere, but the way this one was written seemed almost intended to incite derision.
- 20wenty 3y agoThat's Insider for you. They're often more concerned with doing exactly that than doing good journalism.
- fpanzer 3y agoWell then, good bye!
- tejohnso 3y ago> I'm half Korean and half white, and I'm unfortunately treated differently based on my looks > I can't wait to feel welcome again in my home country She's talking about being treated differently based on looks and then suggesting that The United States of America is a better option. Maybe that's her personal experience, but it sounds completely absurd as part of a critique of another country.
- FounderBurr 3y agoThe only thing more crime than this whining existing is someone paid her to write it. barf
- CrzyLngPwd 3y agoI'm English, and a few years ago I spent a LOT of time in Germany (2 weeks out of every 5 in Leipzig, for almost 3 years) and I always felt enormously welcomed. My German was terrible but I tried, however many people also wanted to try speaking English with me so often we had a broken English/German exchange. I loved shopping, it was a great time to learn new words and experience people. Playing table tennis, and sharing beers, with the locals, and going to the lakes and parks, also helped a lot. The cheap beer combined with the deposit scheme, oh lordy.
- dontupvoteme 3y ago>The cheap beer combined with the deposit scheme, oh lordy. Not to mention no legal closing hours and cornern... always a hoot.
- Fervicus 3y agoHow is this journalism?
- ElfinTrousers 3y agoIt's not, it's Business Insider. It's journalism-flavored entertainment.
- Fervicus 3y agoSadly also true for most MSM outlets today.
- ajsnigrutin 3y agoSo wait... she moved to germany, a country that speaks well.. german... moved to a small village... been there for a year and a half... and still hasn't learned english well enough to be able to normally communicate?! I live in a smaller chicken-shaped country two countries down from germany, and the situation here is the same, especially with americans. While some older generations have issues with our language due to.. well... yugoslavia issues, young people (new..ish immigrants) usually at least try to learn the language as fast as possible (with maybe one group excluded). But americans? Five, six, ten years here, and unable to order a beer in any other language than english. Yes, I know all waiters in the touristy city center know english, but come on, you came here, at least try to adapt.
- oneTbrain23 3y ago[flagged]
- dontupvoteme 3y ago>a country that speaks well.. german... moved to a small village... Beyond that, many of the older peoples, especially in villages, speak their dialect of german. for them "German" may even be a SECOND language (albeit very similar to their dialect for the vast majority..) Languages are dying every day, but these are some of the last bastions of a Sprachbund.
- csa 3y agoHmmm… maybe there are some details she is leaving out, but it seems like she decided to be a military spouse abroad on hard mode: - There are typically base services that support spouses in ways that she griped about — taxes, language instruction, health insurance, cheap gas, big box stores (PX, AAFES), etc. - She and her husband get a substantial stipend for housing near the base — that is, they don’t pay rent for what will likely be a very nice place by local standards. Plus they can buy stuff at US prices at the base stores. Complaining about prices seems odd. - She seems to have a shitty attitude. It’s not a surprise that folks aren’t responding well to her. - Side note: I wonder if she’s actually having marriage problems, and she’s projecting it onto Germany. Her husband does not seem to be helping her much with being a military spouse (e.g., by telling her about base services), and that’s a culture shock of its own.
- wrp 3y agoI was looking for a service member to point out the official support. Some of her complaints did sound quite strange.
- pella 3y agoIn principle, many problems arise from cultural differences alone .. "The Culture Map: How to Navigate Foreign Cultures in Business" https://ahalbert.com/reviews/2023/06/04/the_culture_map.html https://ahalbert.com/reviews/2023/06/04/the_culture_map.html HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36190015 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36190015 "In this chapter she starts with a merger between an American and German financial company. The Americans described the Germans as too hierarchical, with a focus on titles and chain of command. The Germansin turn thought the Americans were too hierarchical - the boss said turn left and everyone turned in unison. This disagreement happened Germany is more Consensual (Big D) in decision-making - decisions are made by groups in unanimous agreement. Once consensus is reached, it is final. In contrast, the US is a Top-Down (Little d) decision-making culture. Decisions are made by individuals and propagated downwards, but they are not final - decisions are flexible and may be changed."
- ElfinTrousers 3y agoBREAKING NEWS: Small town Germans not effusively welcoming to representative of foreign military, yuppie wife who expects place to work like California.
- prmoustache 3y agoWhat does half korean, half white even mean? It doesn't look like people in South Korea have high melanin level on average.
- pm3003 3y agoIntegrating into small German towns can be hard even for Germans... And big German cities are affordable with a US military salary, but you'll probably have a flat and not a McMansion with a front and back yard. But not working (no relationships with locals) and not having an expat community to fall back to is rapidly depressing.
- freediverx 3y ago[flagged]
- oh_sigh 3y agoPeople calling her a snowflake should consider that she lived as an ex pat in South Korea as well and had a better experience. It's not like she never stepped foot out of California until she went to small town Germany and is complaining. She's directly comparing her experience in some cases to her experience in south Korea.
- akmarinov 3y agoLove it when it's an "expat" when from the US or the UK, but an immigrant for all other countries.
- jleyank 3y agoIt’s an expat from and an immigrant to. In the case of the us, these government works hard to keep track of their expats for tax reasons. You can state your point of view with the use of either term.
- calyth2018 3y agoBoohoo... Not belonging is very much the experience any immigrant faces. Immigrants into the US are no exception. And if she's complaining about not belonging for her looks, ask how Muslim Americans and Muslim Canadians feel in the early 2000s, or how a lot of Asian Americans and Canadians feel currently with the geopolitics riling up the racists.
- artbender 3y ago[flagged]
- erdos4d 3y agoI also moved to Germany and bailed after 6 months. Unlike this article, I didn't care about the people or language, I was there to make some money and move on, so it wasn't a place I wanted to integrate into to begin with. The people in Germany, on average, don't like foreigners and don't want them around. That's true in Europe in general and definitely true for Germany, so I'm not sure what the article's author is really surprised at. That said, what made me move after such a short time though is that I'm 100% sure the same bunch of old money that supported the Nazis is still there today running things. Once you meet a few of the rich ones and see how arrogant and stupid they are, you realize immediately that their society is structured so that these people will remain on top no matter what. And from this fact you know all you need to about who you are really working for, and by extension, who their grandparents supported.
- dkmn 3y agoSeems very entitled to me. I wonder if the author ever considered how people who have lived in a small town feel about someone who insists on showing up, being catered to, and not assimilating? Realize there is some level of resentment of servicemen as well. I was a dependent in the 80s abroad. I am also an American and so sensitive to small unfriendlinesses, but I find them no worse in visiting a far city like Chicago than in most countries. Have not been to Germany in a while. It used to feel quite straightforward to me and much friendlier than I expected with a modicum of effort. Perhaps more jaded now in the post internet era but who knows. Still this feels like the snowflake version of the Ugly American viewpoint.
- 2-718-281-828 3y agothe entire piece seems like something from the onion.
- jacknews 3y agoSo residents of a small german town that has a large US military base, made her, a US serviceman's wife feel unwelcome? I think it's pretty much the same story worldwide, and not only for US bases; anywhere there's a large imposed foreign presence, local residents will not entirely embrace it's members.
- thefz 3y agoWhy is this ragebait on HN?
- ajcp 3y agoThis article is incredibly disingenuous (if it's not totally satirical) in portraying her actual perceived status in Germany society and how that effects her experiences in Germany. She is not just an expat; she is not living an expats life in Germany. As the dependent of a US servicemember stationed in/around K-Town she is not at all exposed to what would be considered the traditional, expat experience. Looking beyond even the Status of Forces Agreement that provides her with the ability to be in the country "visa free", hold a job, and even provide her certain civil protections, there's the access to DoD resources and community, as well as the monetary subsidization she receives for living "on the economy". Her husband gets a substantial OHA (~$1,700 - $2,000+ per month in that area [1]), but even beyond that: they are stationed *across the country* from the places she says she can't afford to live...that's not how that works. That's not how any of this works. 1. https://www.travel.dod.mil/Allowances/Overseas-Housing-Allowance/OHA-Rate-Lookup/ https://www.travel.dod.mil/Allowances/Overseas-Housing-Allow...
- ghusto 3y agoThis is likely merely cultural misunderstanding. I've noticed that when Americans come here to the Netherlands, they take offence at the things that natives don't. Dutch people don't take offence at those things because there's no need for pretence around caring for people, it's genuine, and a given. Without the _show_ though, it looks like rudeness to Americans.