8 ms·

Tipping in the United States has gotten out of control

66 points by blueridge 3y ago

3littlefish 3y ago
For those of us outside of the US, this seems crazy! Tipping 25+% adds such a lot to the final bill. In Spain, we just leave a couple of Euros, maybe more if service was exceptional. There simply isn't the same pressure for diners to tip, as all waiting staff earn a living wage. Tips here are simply an incentive/reward for good service, rather than absolutely expected in order to supplement the wages of underpaid staff.
- j_walter 3y ago
  What is considered a living wage to you? I'm honestly asking because that term is thrown around in the US, but no one can ever define a number. In many large cities in the US the starting wage for a fast food worker can be $18+/hr. For someone working in an upscale restaurant can easily get hundreds per day in tips.
  - Symbiote 3y ago
    Since the purpose is to be a minimum wage to live in, it means a wage expected for low-skill jobs. $18/hr is also a typical American salary for a new teacher [1], or $25+ with more experience, and I don't think working in an upscale restaurant should pay better. [1] Many hits on Google.
  - 3littlefish 3y ago
    The average wage in Spain is 2268 EUR per month (very low compared to many places), though people in the service industry will earn less than that of course. In the villages a coffee is about EUR 1.50-1.80 and a set 3-course lunch is around EUR 11-13 (but more in the big cities). There are a lot of cultural differences (obviously) but the cost of living is generally less overall. Cafes and restaurants here are often staffed by either younger people still studying (and usually living at home), or older people. It isn't a route to riches by any stretch, but people get a set minimum wage which should be enough to afford rent/shopping without needing to be supplemented with tips. That said - life is hard and the cost of living is definitely going up here. You wouldn't earn hundreds of Euros in tips even in the best Spanish restaurants though.
    - j_walter 3y ago
      Would you believe that most restaurants in the US have a minimum 18% tip if you have more than 6 people in your party? The norms here are very different and part of the problem is lifestyle expectations. Minimum wage isn't expected to be glamorous, but some people think that having roommates is not a reasonable expectation for anyone.
      - 3littlefish 3y ago
        Similar in the UK to be fair. Tables of 6+ often have a tip (10-15%) added as standard, though this is still "discretionary."
        j_walter 3y ago
        It is not discretionary most places here...it is mandatory.
  - m_0x 3y ago
    > I'm honestly asking because that term is thrown around in the US, but no one can ever define a number. There is no definition because it is impossible to define. Everyone will say a number based on their very specific circumstances, problems and expected quality of life (Which will also vary from person to person) The elephant in the room is that besides trying to define a number for a livable wage there is nothing else but an extreme status quo replacement.
    - j_walter 3y ago
      Kind of my point, should we be setting wages for people based on their lifestyle...or the other way around?
      - m_0x 3y ago
        I think it's a fool's errand to define it either way. An endless task. Even if we eliminate corporate/billionaires greed.
- xxs 3y ago
  Tipping in quite a few countries in the EU is effectively illegal when done in cash. When added to the bill, the tip is taxed with VAT, then it as to be added to the salary, the latter is a subject of income and social tax. It's a form of tax evasion, yet I have never heard to have been an issue (prosecuted)
  - 3littlefish 3y ago
    I don't know about that - I've never heard that issue with leaving a cash tip in Europe, especially as the amount overall is fairly neglible. Most of mainland Europe doesn't even give the option to add a tip to a card payment when you get the bill as tips are discretionary.
- paulmd 3y ago
  the US has a culture where regulations and general social interactions are so pro-business that people blindly accept false advertising in the form of fees and taxes being tacked on after-the-fact rather than impose on businesses by asking them to name an all-in number. it's not just tipping but also sales tax, restaurant "courtesy fees", airline fees, fuel surcharges, resort fees, electric surcharges (I pay more in fees than I do for the actual electricity!), auto sales bills, etc. The US is allergic to the concept of having to advertise an out-the-door number, because that wouldn't make for compelling advertising, and that's the focus in the US.
j_walter 3y ago
Tipping no longer seems to be about rewarding good service. Tipping at starbucks, panda express or any other fast food joint didn't used to happen outside of a dollar or two into a tip jar. 15% was pretty normal for a sit down dinner where tables were bused, drinks were refilled and service was had...now the expecation is 15% or more when getting drive thru fast food which in some niche places can be as much as a sit down meal (Burgerville near me is an example where meals can easily exceed $15/person).
- rngname22 3y ago
  Can I ask what makes you think tipping at fast food is expected? Has anyone in your life told you they think it's rude not to tip there or have you had any bad interactions with a worker when you tried to skip tipping?
  - j_walter 3y ago
    When the person taking my credit card at the drive thru hands me the little machine and tells me which button to push for 15, 18 or 20% tip...and watching me until I hand it back...yeah its expected. In case you didn't see this story... https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/tipping-culture-etiquette-ice-cream-tiktok-b2343669.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/tipping-culture-eti... ...there is an attitude spreading that tipping is necessary. https://viewfromthewing.com/austin-airport-shop-demands-tip-when-buying-a-bottle-of-water-to-go/ https://viewfromthewing.com/austin-airport-shop-demands-tip-... Oh...and the Burgerville union demanding that tips be pushed in the drive thru... https://www.coworker.org/petitions/we-demand-tips-in-the-drive-thru https://www.coworker.org/petitions/we-demand-tips-in-the-dri... Another article about it... https://thinkingoregon.org/2022/04/23/heres-a-tip-to-businesses-stop-demanding-tips/comment-page-1/ https://thinkingoregon.org/2022/04/23/heres-a-tip-to-busines...
    - Simulacra 3y ago
      ..and the change in their face when you press ZERO.
    - 3y ago
gainda 3y ago
I generally tip no more than 15%. Seeing suggested tips come up when I pick up take out is too common. In the past I would robotically tap the lowest option but now I am trying to be more deliberate and discerning about it. I really can't afford to tip everyone for everything!
- dotnet00 3y ago
  Plus, delivery services like Uber often have large discounts but tips seem to be priced based on the undiscounted value. Leading to cases of it proposing a $5 tip on an order I'm paying ~$15 for.
  - zerocrates 3y ago
    Everything's controversial in the land of tipping but it's pretty normal to tip on undiscounted price.
    - dotnet00 3y ago
      Huh, I wasn't aware of that.
      - ppx11 3y ago
        yep i always go by pre-discount total
rngname22 3y ago
Tipping screens on touchscreen checkout/payment systems are an unfortunate tax on people who are afraid of social judgment or social conflict. As tipping screens have become more common in retail/counter service through wider and wider usage of iPads as payment, and as suggested tipping amounts on the pre-selected options have increased, I have not started tipping any more at all than I ever did (20% on services where wait staff served our table but nothing for normal behind-a-counter transactions). I just learned to hunt down the zero percent button or the 'enter your own amount' button very quickly.
- blueridge 3y ago
  https://www.instagram.com/reel/CsUhBLiO4P2/?igshid=NzJjY2FjNWJiZg%3D%3D https://www.instagram.com/reel/CsUhBLiO4P2/?igshid=NzJjY2FjN...
dieselgate 3y ago
It was mentioned in the article but probably a part of this is “standardization” of POS software and devices. Have seen up to 30% suggested tips before which is laughable. Receipts often have tip sections by default it seems. My biggest qualm is when tax is included into the pre-defined tip denominations because it’s absurd but also messes with my mental math. Edit word
- RajT88 3y ago
  When I remember to, I blank out the tip section and fill in the total. Sometimes, people will use the opportunity to give themselves a tip. (I haven't caught it happening, but I know/have read about people who have) Those POS devices don't prompt for a tip by default. The amounts they offer for the denominations are configurable as well. Companies offering to add a tip to picking up your coffee chose to do so. Why is this desirable for employers? One: It doesn't cost them anything and improves employee retention (or: they don't have to pay their employees as much). Two: They get control over that tip money, and can distribute it (or not) how they like. Yes, I've heard about this too, where tip money is equally distributed among all shift employees, or as well as a disciplinary step employers have kept all the tip money for that day. Three: If it's a self-owned business, they may get free money from someone who feels pressured to tip. Yes, some of that may be legal, but it goes on anyways.
- cmh89 3y ago
  >t was mentioned in the article but probably a part of this is “standardization” of POS software and devices. Have seen up to 30% suggested tips before which is laughable. Receipts often have tip sections by default it seems. My favorite is when they have the screen set-up so the largest tip is furthest to the left where you'd expect the smallest to be.
  - dieselgate 3y ago
    haha yep and that's how it was configured when I saw the 30%!
- cge 3y ago
  Yet surely these are configurable? I've had numerous instances in Europe, particularly in Ireland and the UK, of shops, grocers, cafes, etc with touchscreen POS devices that ask customers for a tip percentage with every sale, only for the staff to quickly reach over on every sale and press "no tip". It seems like a rather inefficient way of not having tips. I don't know, however, whether it comes from owners trying to establish tipping and staff disagreeing, or an inability, administratively or technically, to figure out the configuration.
anikom15 3y ago
15% waiting, haircuts 0% for non-services like taking my order at the counter and having to pick up a call-in 10% for everything else I don’t care if you screw up or move the earth for me, that’s what you get. That’s what everyone gets. It’s made my life so much simpler.
throwaway22032 3y ago
I don't get tipping in the US. To me the idea of a tip is basically as some sort of recognition of status. It feels like an aristocratic tradition of sorts - a recognition that the money is not much to the giver but is to the recipient. At least in proportion to the service rendered. And it only makes sense for like, kind of personal favours with some sort of emotional connection where the person goes above and beyond. When it comes to just like, literally giving money for everything ever, like buying a coffee, it just seems bizarre. If you're on the same level as someone else then tipping just seems weird.
- masklinn 3y ago
  Problematically the concept of “tipped wage” (and consequently tipped workers) is a legal one in the US.
- JoshTriplett 3y ago
  That's exactly what people are typically complaining about they complain about tipping culture. People don't complain about having the option of tipping for above-and-beyond service; people complain about having a universal expectation of tipping for all service.
- meepmorp 3y ago
  The US generally allows waitstaff in restaurants to be paid below minimum wage, with the expectation that they'll earn the balance in tips.
  - zerocrates 3y ago
    The way this works, assuming everyone is following the law, is weird. Generally how it works is that the employee must make at least the normal minimum wage when including tips, and if they don't the employer has to make up the shortfall. So all tips that represent the difference between an employee's base wage and the minimum, those are basically going into the employer's pocket first, and only represent actually increased compensation for the employee once they get over the minimum.
blueridge 3y ago
My goodwill for this stuff is rapidly running out. You've got the already inflated cost of the goods or services, then taxes, then whatever "local fees" are required, then the venue or restaurant adds on "service fees" on top of that...and then you're asked to tip, or to donate to a good cause, etc. Lots of small businesses in our area have kept the "fair wage and wellness fee" they added during COVID times and there's a long paragraph of text on the bill that explains why it's important and how it's helping them pay staff, yadda yadda. Seems like the entire cost of running the business and keeping people employed has been passed on to the customer. I enjoy a good meal and a good show, and I am happy to support local businesses. But a $5.25 latte and a $24 pizza and $14 for a salad that is only three pieces of lettuce or a $100 ticket that becomes $175 after fees...I'm starting to opt-out entirely.
- salad-tycoon 3y ago
  We’ve opted out and couldn’t be happier. Just do things at home, better quality, less money and no pressure.
- EliRivers 3y ago
  Seems like the entire cost of running the business and keeping people employed has been passed on to the customer. Is that not the only way it can work? Unless a business is being subsidised by someone as a hobby or Softbank is pouring money into it for it to be set on fire (more charitably in some kind of growth phase where they can stomach taking a loss for years), then the income from the customers surely has to cover the costs.
  - frumper 3y ago
    Just price it in. The reaction to all the point of sale fees are transparent pricing laws which will just make the business have to calculate and track all of these silly fees, add them up and then display the final price to the consumer before they choose to buy it.
    - JohnFen 3y ago
EscapeFromNY 3y ago
Tip culture became popular in the American South during the slavery era, as a way for former slaveowners to "employ" former slaves without having to pay them directly. https://time.com/5404475/history-tipping-american-restaurants-civil-war/ https://time.com/5404475/history-tipping-american-restaurant... The sooner the US can move past that era of its history, the better. EDIT: I didn't expect "let's move past slavery" to be such an unpopular opinion on HN. Yikes.
confidantlake 3y ago
I no longer eat out because of this.
- latchkey 3y ago
  Agreed. My weight is down, my general health is up and my wallet is fatter.
- chrismorgan 3y ago
  I’ve been to the US a few times (from Australia). I will actively avoid places I get the impression tipping might be expected, because I find the practice so distasteful and anxiety-inducing.
riley_dog 3y ago
Tipping is stupid, and it now exists (in the US) solely to offset shitty wages. When I waited tables in college, I treated it as compensation for my work above and beyond the status quo. Now it's simply an expectation, regardless of the quality of work or experience.
- Fervicus 3y ago
  Canada too.
Simulacra 3y ago
I think the point of sales systems are to blame. I think gratuity should be banned from debit and credit cards, and only allowed as cash. Unworkable I know, but how else would you get rid of the prompt to tip?
lostNFound 3y ago
My only contact with tipping in the US as a foreigner, was my only trip to the US. Florida theme parks back when I was a child, a decade ago. In particular, I remember going to Hollywood Planet, inside the Disneyworld Downtown. The waiter kept making us eat “fast” by asking “dessert now?” unasked as we were still eating entrees. When we paid he stayed there completely still, and my father asked “…so?”. And he said the tip was too little. Dad said “I tip what I want and your service was horrible anyway”. He threw a literal tantrum and furiously ran into the kitchen, to never be seen again. We walked out after that. It left a mark on me as the symbol of US tipping culture, due to the impact actually being on a situation causes vs reading about it. Never has any of the sort happened anywhere else in my life.
- jdminhbg 3y ago
  The Planet Hollywood inside Disney World has about as much to do with the US as a whole as a restaurant outside the Vatican with menus in 12 languages has to do with Italy.
  - lostNFound 3y ago
    I get the admittedly similar comparison, but do you think it’s truly accurate? You’re comparing a country and seat of a world religion to a theme park. And, even so (even if it was in Italy, that is), is it not an italian restaurant just because it’s touristic and not “for locals”? That just sounds like a No True Scotsman.
    - jdminhbg 3y ago
      > You’re comparing a country and seat of a world religion to a theme park. Well, you'll notice I didn't say inside the Vatican, which is in fact a serious place with serious art treasures. > And, even so (even if it was in Italy, that is), is it not an italian restaurant just because it’s touristic and not “for locals”? I didn't say it wouldn't be Italian, and I didn't say Planet Hollywood isn't American. I did say they are both extreme outliers. Bill Gates is American, but his life and mine have almost nothing in common apart from language and what our passports look like. You don't learn much about American lives from looking at Bill Gates.
asdajksah2123 3y ago
I've always been a good tipper (> 20% even before the pandemic), but I'm increasingly unwilling to do so. My argument is fairly simple. Tipping is a tax on decency. Decent people tip well. Assholes don't tip. And it's the decent people who get screwed. I'd much rather a restaurant tack on a 20% or even 25% service fee that everyone, including the assholes, must pay rather than asking for tips and depending on my decency to compensate for the restaurant underpaying its employees, while allowing assholes to get away with contributing nothing.
- babyshake 3y ago
  One thing to add to this is tipping with POS systems at fast food restaurants, coffee shops, etc. is always done before you receive your items. I much prefer to tip after I have received everything, since the tip is supposed to reflect your satisfaction with service and is a useful incentive for good, quick service.
  - scelerat 3y ago
    > is a useful incentive for good, quick service This is frequently said, but has anyone done any work to show that it's actually true? That tips work as an incentive for measurably better or improved service? Or to what degree it is true? Just wondering. I have a lot of friends in the service industry and, like people in many other careers, beyond a particular baseline of compensation and satisfaction, it seems that good performance is as much about intrinsic motivations as it is about extrinsic factors. The best people often simply want to do a good job. If the tips or overall comp isn't satisfactory, they either find a different place to work or take additional shifts at another bar or restaurant.
    - achates 3y ago
      I've never seen a study but Planet Money interviewed some waiters back in the day and they all said the trick to making a lot in tips is turning over tables as fast as possible.
      - 3y ago
ary 3y ago
As usual of "reporting" in the United States this is devoid of anything beyond informing the reader that something happened. Tipping in this country should be called what it is: customer subsidization of service worker wages. Restaurants are allowed to pay their workers below minimum wage because of the expectation for tips. The answer has been clear for a while now. Require full minimum wage (not that it's enough) for all service workers regardless of their role and require that all tips be pooled for everyone working a given shift. As others have mentioned the tipping culture in the U.S. has its roots in the abuses of the antebellum South. Tipping is paternalistic and many people treat it as a way to exercise power over service workers. It needs to be abolished, but as with most things we'll probably have to do it in phases.
ugh123 3y ago
Also remember that the union representing Apple store employees is pushing for tipping: https://www.entrepreneur.com/business-news/apple-store-proposes-tipping-system-for-customers/451920#:~:text=%22Apple%20will%20integrate%20a%20tipping,well%20done%20without%20any%20obligations https://www.entrepreneur.com/business-news/apple-store-propo....
kashunstva 3y ago
Maybe the net effect of default tip screens on POS terminals is positive from the vendor’s perspective; but for me it’s negative. I tip less now than ever because the whole system is opaque to me. I have no idea who’s getting how much. I don’t know how the cost of the goods and services I’m purchasing relate to actual cost of provision. Why am I voluntarily putting in more than the asking price when I have no idea who is operating behind the scenes to extract value from the transaction. I’m sympathetic toward worker’s rights but the solution is in collective and political action, not in hiding it behind these one-off transactions.
- monnok 3y ago
  I lived about 40 years under a sort of social truce with tipping culture. Tipping is inherently too transactional and too patronizing for my comfort. But the social construct, including laws, around server wages and tips was so well established I was able to establish a sort of loose personal policy. This truce allowed me to tip consistently and generously transaction after transaction. Yet, it allowed me to still somewhat abstract each tip from its transactional and patronizing character. Not only is that social truce now violated, it is violated specifically within our new global environment of every-transaction-of-any-kind-is-a-novel-attempt-at-customer-exploitation. Every supposed price is already a mystery, and every voluntary tip screen is a mystery with an ethical puzzle and a face to face confrontation. I’ve drastically scaled back my use of services because it is emotionally taxing for me to confront the utter pettiness of trying to guess how much I should be paying for hot noodles from day to day.
rhplus 3y ago
A perennial gripe about tipping is that it’s usually based on value of goods, rather than value of service. Pouring a $7 glass of wine takes exactly the same effort as a $14 glass of wine, but one earns the wait staff double the tip.
codegeek 3y ago
TIP = To Insure Promptness. That is where it comes from. Nowadays, everyone expects a Tip and restaurants are getting cuter by adding those screens on payment devices. I love to tip if I actually got a great service at a traditional sit down restaurant where a waiter actually takes care of my order and pays attention. But getting tired of every food place trying to force us to pay Tips. Don't forget delivery charge if you order delivery AND then you still gotta pay that drive a Tip (expected to).
- swozey 3y ago
  > TIP = To Insure Promptness. TIL. I'd never even thought about the possibility of it being an acronym.. Edit: Nevermind snopes says that isn't true https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/tip-sheet/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/tip-sheet/
darkwizard42 3y ago
I guess my question is what do I do in a region where the minimum wage is quite high (CA) and there is no longer a tip-included-below-minimum-wage minimum wage? Do I continue to tip even thought I now know my servers make a fair wage (and the bill often includes healthcare mandates etc.)?
darth_avocado 3y ago
While most of the conversation is focused on “ohh restaurants pay less than minimum wage, therefore we should tip”. I think more of the conversation needs to happen on the side of “why do more people expect tips for just doing their bare minimum?”. Tips are showing up for things where employees are not paid less than minimum wage like bakeries, flower shops, clothing stores, fast food, ice cream shops etc. The weirdest one was a bicycle shop where they charged me $120 before taxes for a “tune up” on a $500 bicycle and then presented me with the 20, 25 and 30% menu. I almost laughed out loud on this one.
Fervicus 3y ago
I went to a hole in the wall place the other day, the kind with no seating. The machine shows me tipping options of: 20%, 25%, and 30%. I have also seen restaurants add a gratuity of 20% for parties of 4 or more automatically and then ask you for tip on top of that. This kind of thing is sadly getting more and more common.
supertofu 3y ago
I haven't gone to a sit-down restaurant since the pandemic began. What with compulsory tipping, inflation, and a huge reduction in quality, I'm finding it hard to justify the cost. I still enjoy food trucks and takeout... but restaurants are a pass.
shockeychap 3y ago
My biggest problem is the use of "dark patterns" in the UX of POS systems. Firstly, a tip should be something that is asked for AFTER the service has been provided, as it's meant to both reward and incentivize good service. Modern POS systems have broken this construct by prompting for a tip at places like Panera, Five Guys, Starbucks, and others before any service has been received. Secondly, a tip should be directed to those who provided the service. Yet, in the POS systems described above, there's no way to know who is receiving the tip. Oftentimes even the manager doesn't know. Lastly, IF the above is going to be violated, then, at the very least, a customer should be assured that the staff behind the counter will not see the tip amount right away. As it is, I'm made to worry that if I don't tip well, the staff will see it and adjust the service I get. The whole process is guided by dark patterns that seek to leverage guilt and the threat of being perceived as a bad customer to extract higher tips in lieu of raising wages and adjusting prices to match.
- gnulinux 3y ago
  The worst dark pattern I see in big cities I frequent in (Boston and NYC) is that these POS systems have absolutely ridiculous default settings. I've seen coffee shops that show "25%, 30%, 35%" on the tipping screen. Look, before COVID I would never even tip a barista for coffee, due to COVID we said "sure" but I've never tipped anyone 25% in my entire life. How dare a coffee shop defaults to 25% as the "lowest" option?! When I see these I immediately click "Skip". It's absolutely a psychological scam, they just hope you'll impulsively click the lowest setting.
willio58 3y ago
I've been wondering what the true solution is. I see more and more restaurants removing tips from the equation and just charging more and supposedly paying their employees better. But that's still a tiny portion of all restaurants. I wonder if one day we'll see a state ban tipping (or at least asking for tips) and institute some type of pay restructure so tipped employees don't get screwed. But what that looks like, I have no idea. Tipping has really gone from a nice gesture to workers to a whole other beast where customers are massively subsidizing the pay for workers. It's a lose-lose for anyone but the businesses.
jgb1984 3y ago
As a European, this whole concept is mind boggling. Just show me a price for a service or an item, and I'll pay it. The listed prices for us already include any taxes and charges. If you're having a nice meal and you're satisfied with the service delivered you can leave a little extra. But there's no pressure or expectation to do so. I remember visiting NYC and being baffled by how the hamburger listed at $ 5 ends up costing $ 12 in the end.
kazbars 3y ago
Why do we tip? If for a fare wage, does the server deserve less because I ordered a salad instead of a steak? If for service, what is 'good service'? Can you quantify it? Do you even want it to begin with? Perhaps the next time you're about to sit down at a restaurant you should request the 'zero tip' experience. This should give you a lower bound from which to judge off of, if indeed you value the 'service' enough at all.
HALtheWise 3y ago
My current rules for tipping is that I'll tip when all three of the following are true: - The quality of the service I came to get is significantly impacted by a single employee - That employee is the one receiving the tip - I am only asked for the tip after I have been able to judge the quality of the service When those things are true (waiters, haircuts, Uber drivers) then I'll tip generously and with high variance. When they aren't (fast food, Starbucks, etc) then I try not to tip, although fighting the peer pressure is definitely hard. The goal is that the best hairstylists/waiters/drivers make enough in tips to have it be a high-paying job they love, and the worst are incentivised to move to an industry where their skills are a better fit. If the general quality of the service is good for reasons not related to a specific employee, I'll do all the normal things (rating highly on Google Maps, returning frequently, recommending to friends), so tipping is only arguably useful when it's directed feedback to a single person. I do wish restaurants allowed a separate tip line for "tip the waiter" and "tip the chef" though.
activiation 3y ago
Tipping should be illegal in a lot of cases, if not all. They need to pay their employees a living wage.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  I don't think it should be illegal. I should be able to give a monetary gift to people if I choose. But it has to stop being effectively mandatory, and employers should not be factoring tips in when they're determining what they pay their employees.
theshrike79 3y ago
It's hilarious how giving and requesting a "tips" is socially acceptable. But if a company would change the name to anything else, there would be a huge revolt.
greenyoda 3y ago
Big discussion a week ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36213929 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36213929

66 points by blueridge 3y ago

For those of us outside of the US, this seems crazy! Tipping 25+% adds such a lot to the final bill. In Spain, we just leave a couple of Euros, maybe more if service was exceptional. There simply isn't the same pressure for diners to tip, as all waiting staff earn a living wage. Tips here are simply an incentive/reward for good service, rather than absolutely expected in order to supplement the wages of underpaid staff.

j_walter 3y ago
What is considered a living wage to you? I'm honestly asking because that term is thrown around in the US, but no one can ever define a number. In many large cities in the US the starting wage for a fast food worker can be $18+/hr. For someone working in an upscale restaurant can easily get hundreds per day in tips.
- Symbiote 3y ago
  Since the purpose is to be a minimum wage to live in, it means a wage expected for low-skill jobs. $18/hr is also a typical American salary for a new teacher [1], or $25+ with more experience, and I don't think working in an upscale restaurant should pay better. [1] Many hits on Google.
- 3littlefish 3y ago
  The average wage in Spain is 2268 EUR per month (very low compared to many places), though people in the service industry will earn less than that of course. In the villages a coffee is about EUR 1.50-1.80 and a set 3-course lunch is around EUR 11-13 (but more in the big cities). There are a lot of cultural differences (obviously) but the cost of living is generally less overall. Cafes and restaurants here are often staffed by either younger people still studying (and usually living at home), or older people. It isn't a route to riches by any stretch, but people get a set minimum wage which should be enough to afford rent/shopping without needing to be supplemented with tips. That said - life is hard and the cost of living is definitely going up here. You wouldn't earn hundreds of Euros in tips even in the best Spanish restaurants though.
  - j_walter 3y ago
    Would you believe that most restaurants in the US have a minimum 18% tip if you have more than 6 people in your party? The norms here are very different and part of the problem is lifestyle expectations. Minimum wage isn't expected to be glamorous, but some people think that having roommates is not a reasonable expectation for anyone.
    - 3littlefish 3y ago
      Similar in the UK to be fair. Tables of 6+ often have a tip (10-15%) added as standard, though this is still "discretionary."
      - j_walter 3y ago
        It is not discretionary most places here...it is mandatory.
- m_0x 3y ago
  > I'm honestly asking because that term is thrown around in the US, but no one can ever define a number. There is no definition because it is impossible to define. Everyone will say a number based on their very specific circumstances, problems and expected quality of life (Which will also vary from person to person) The elephant in the room is that besides trying to define a number for a livable wage there is nothing else but an extreme status quo replacement.
  - j_walter 3y ago
    Kind of my point, should we be setting wages for people based on their lifestyle...or the other way around?
    - m_0x 3y ago
      I think it's a fool's errand to define it either way. An endless task. Even if we eliminate corporate/billionaires greed.
xxs 3y ago
Tipping in quite a few countries in the EU is effectively illegal when done in cash. When added to the bill, the tip is taxed with VAT, then it as to be added to the salary, the latter is a subject of income and social tax. It's a form of tax evasion, yet I have never heard to have been an issue (prosecuted)
- 3littlefish 3y ago
  I don't know about that - I've never heard that issue with leaving a cash tip in Europe, especially as the amount overall is fairly neglible. Most of mainland Europe doesn't even give the option to add a tip to a card payment when you get the bill as tips are discretionary.
paulmd 3y ago
the US has a culture where regulations and general social interactions are so pro-business that people blindly accept false advertising in the form of fees and taxes being tacked on after-the-fact rather than impose on businesses by asking them to name an all-in number. it's not just tipping but also sales tax, restaurant "courtesy fees", airline fees, fuel surcharges, resort fees, electric surcharges (I pay more in fees than I do for the actual electricity!), auto sales bills, etc. The US is allergic to the concept of having to advertise an out-the-door number, because that wouldn't make for compelling advertising, and that's the focus in the US.

j_walter 3y ago

Tipping no longer seems to be about rewarding good service. Tipping at starbucks, panda express or any other fast food joint didn't used to happen outside of a dollar or two into a tip jar. 15% was pretty normal for a sit down dinner where tables were bused, drinks were refilled and service was had...now the expecation is 15% or more when getting drive thru fast food which in some niche places can be as much as a sit down meal (Burgerville near me is an example where meals can easily exceed $15/person).

rngname22 3y ago
Can I ask what makes you think tipping at fast food is expected? Has anyone in your life told you they think it's rude not to tip there or have you had any bad interactions with a worker when you tried to skip tipping?
- j_walter 3y ago
  When the person taking my credit card at the drive thru hands me the little machine and tells me which button to push for 15, 18 or 20% tip...and watching me until I hand it back...yeah its expected. In case you didn't see this story... https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/tipping-culture-etiquette-ice-cream-tiktok-b2343669.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/tipping-culture-eti... ...there is an attitude spreading that tipping is necessary. https://viewfromthewing.com/austin-airport-shop-demands-tip-when-buying-a-bottle-of-water-to-go/ https://viewfromthewing.com/austin-airport-shop-demands-tip-... Oh...and the Burgerville union demanding that tips be pushed in the drive thru... https://www.coworker.org/petitions/we-demand-tips-in-the-drive-thru https://www.coworker.org/petitions/we-demand-tips-in-the-dri... Another article about it... https://thinkingoregon.org/2022/04/23/heres-a-tip-to-businesses-stop-demanding-tips/comment-page-1/ https://thinkingoregon.org/2022/04/23/heres-a-tip-to-busines...
  - Simulacra 3y ago
    ..and the change in their face when you press ZERO.
  - 3y ago

gainda 3y ago

I generally tip no more than 15%. Seeing suggested tips come up when I pick up take out is too common. In the past I would robotically tap the lowest option but now I am trying to be more deliberate and discerning about it. I really can't afford to tip everyone for everything!

dotnet00 3y ago
Plus, delivery services like Uber often have large discounts but tips seem to be priced based on the undiscounted value. Leading to cases of it proposing a $5 tip on an order I'm paying ~$15 for.
- zerocrates 3y ago
  Everything's controversial in the land of tipping but it's pretty normal to tip on undiscounted price.
  - dotnet00 3y ago
    Huh, I wasn't aware of that.
    - ppx11 3y ago
      yep i always go by pre-discount total

rngname22 3y ago

Tipping screens on touchscreen checkout/payment systems are an unfortunate tax on people who are afraid of social judgment or social conflict. As tipping screens have become more common in retail/counter service through wider and wider usage of iPads as payment, and as suggested tipping amounts on the pre-selected options have increased, I have not started tipping any more at all than I ever did (20% on services where wait staff served our table but nothing for normal behind-a-counter transactions). I just learned to hunt down the zero percent button or the 'enter your own amount' button very quickly.

blueridge 3y ago
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CsUhBLiO4P2/?igshid=NzJjY2FjNWJiZg%3D%3D https://www.instagram.com/reel/CsUhBLiO4P2/?igshid=NzJjY2FjN...

dieselgate 3y ago

It was mentioned in the article but probably a part of this is “standardization” of POS software and devices. Have seen up to 30% suggested tips before which is laughable. Receipts often have tip sections by default it seems. My biggest qualm is when tax is included into the pre-defined tip denominations because it’s absurd but also messes with my mental math. Edit word

RajT88 3y ago
When I remember to, I blank out the tip section and fill in the total. Sometimes, people will use the opportunity to give themselves a tip. (I haven't caught it happening, but I know/have read about people who have) Those POS devices don't prompt for a tip by default. The amounts they offer for the denominations are configurable as well. Companies offering to add a tip to picking up your coffee chose to do so. Why is this desirable for employers? One: It doesn't cost them anything and improves employee retention (or: they don't have to pay their employees as much). Two: They get control over that tip money, and can distribute it (or not) how they like. Yes, I've heard about this too, where tip money is equally distributed among all shift employees, or as well as a disciplinary step employers have kept all the tip money for that day. Three: If it's a self-owned business, they may get free money from someone who feels pressured to tip. Yes, some of that may be legal, but it goes on anyways.
cmh89 3y ago
>t was mentioned in the article but probably a part of this is “standardization” of POS software and devices. Have seen up to 30% suggested tips before which is laughable. Receipts often have tip sections by default it seems. My favorite is when they have the screen set-up so the largest tip is furthest to the left where you'd expect the smallest to be.
- dieselgate 3y ago
  haha yep and that's how it was configured when I saw the 30%!
cge 3y ago
Yet surely these are configurable? I've had numerous instances in Europe, particularly in Ireland and the UK, of shops, grocers, cafes, etc with touchscreen POS devices that ask customers for a tip percentage with every sale, only for the staff to quickly reach over on every sale and press "no tip". It seems like a rather inefficient way of not having tips. I don't know, however, whether it comes from owners trying to establish tipping and staff disagreeing, or an inability, administratively or technically, to figure out the configuration.

anikom15 3y ago

15% waiting, haircuts 0% for non-services like taking my order at the counter and having to pick up a call-in 10% for everything else I don’t care if you screw up or move the earth for me, that’s what you get. That’s what everyone gets. It’s made my life so much simpler.

throwaway22032 3y ago

I don't get tipping in the US. To me the idea of a tip is basically as some sort of recognition of status. It feels like an aristocratic tradition of sorts - a recognition that the money is not much to the giver but is to the recipient. At least in proportion to the service rendered. And it only makes sense for like, kind of personal favours with some sort of emotional connection where the person goes above and beyond. When it comes to just like, literally giving money for everything ever, like buying a coffee, it just seems bizarre. If you're on the same level as someone else then tipping just seems weird.

masklinn 3y ago
Problematically the concept of “tipped wage” (and consequently tipped workers) is a legal one in the US.
JoshTriplett 3y ago
That's exactly what people are typically complaining about they complain about tipping culture. People don't complain about having the option of tipping for above-and-beyond service; people complain about having a universal expectation of tipping for all service.
meepmorp 3y ago
The US generally allows waitstaff in restaurants to be paid below minimum wage, with the expectation that they'll earn the balance in tips.
- zerocrates 3y ago
  The way this works, assuming everyone is following the law, is weird. Generally how it works is that the employee must make at least the normal minimum wage when including tips, and if they don't the employer has to make up the shortfall. So all tips that represent the difference between an employee's base wage and the minimum, those are basically going into the employer's pocket first, and only represent actually increased compensation for the employee once they get over the minimum.

blueridge 3y ago

My goodwill for this stuff is rapidly running out. You've got the already inflated cost of the goods or services, then taxes, then whatever "local fees" are required, then the venue or restaurant adds on "service fees" on top of that...and then you're asked to tip, or to donate to a good cause, etc. Lots of small businesses in our area have kept the "fair wage and wellness fee" they added during COVID times and there's a long paragraph of text on the bill that explains why it's important and how it's helping them pay staff, yadda yadda. Seems like the entire cost of running the business and keeping people employed has been passed on to the customer. I enjoy a good meal and a good show, and I am happy to support local businesses. But a $5.25 latte and a $24 pizza and $14 for a salad that is only three pieces of lettuce or a $100 ticket that becomes $175 after fees...I'm starting to opt-out entirely.

salad-tycoon 3y ago
We’ve opted out and couldn’t be happier. Just do things at home, better quality, less money and no pressure.
EliRivers 3y ago
Seems like the entire cost of running the business and keeping people employed has been passed on to the customer. Is that not the only way it can work? Unless a business is being subsidised by someone as a hobby or Softbank is pouring money into it for it to be set on fire (more charitably in some kind of growth phase where they can stomach taking a loss for years), then the income from the customers surely has to cover the costs.
- frumper 3y ago
  Just price it in. The reaction to all the point of sale fees are transparent pricing laws which will just make the business have to calculate and track all of these silly fees, add them up and then display the final price to the consumer before they choose to buy it.
  - JohnFen 3y ago

EscapeFromNY 3y ago

Tip culture became popular in the American South during the slavery era, as a way for former slaveowners to "employ" former slaves without having to pay them directly. https://time.com/5404475/history-tipping-american-restaurants-civil-war/ https://time.com/5404475/history-tipping-american-restaurant... The sooner the US can move past that era of its history, the better. EDIT: I didn't expect "let's move past slavery" to be such an unpopular opinion on HN. Yikes.

confidantlake 3y ago

I no longer eat out because of this.

latchkey 3y ago
Agreed. My weight is down, my general health is up and my wallet is fatter.
chrismorgan 3y ago
I’ve been to the US a few times (from Australia). I will actively avoid places I get the impression tipping might be expected, because I find the practice so distasteful and anxiety-inducing.

riley_dog 3y ago

Tipping is stupid, and it now exists (in the US) solely to offset shitty wages. When I waited tables in college, I treated it as compensation for my work above and beyond the status quo. Now it's simply an expectation, regardless of the quality of work or experience.

Fervicus 3y ago
Canada too.

Simulacra 3y ago

I think the point of sales systems are to blame. I think gratuity should be banned from debit and credit cards, and only allowed as cash. Unworkable I know, but how else would you get rid of the prompt to tip?

lostNFound 3y ago

My only contact with tipping in the US as a foreigner, was my only trip to the US. Florida theme parks back when I was a child, a decade ago. In particular, I remember going to Hollywood Planet, inside the Disneyworld Downtown. The waiter kept making us eat “fast” by asking “dessert now?” unasked as we were still eating entrees. When we paid he stayed there completely still, and my father asked “…so?”. And he said the tip was too little. Dad said “I tip what I want and your service was horrible anyway”. He threw a literal tantrum and furiously ran into the kitchen, to never be seen again. We walked out after that. It left a mark on me as the symbol of US tipping culture, due to the impact actually being on a situation causes vs reading about it. Never has any of the sort happened anywhere else in my life.

jdminhbg 3y ago
The Planet Hollywood inside Disney World has about as much to do with the US as a whole as a restaurant outside the Vatican with menus in 12 languages has to do with Italy.
- lostNFound 3y ago
  I get the admittedly similar comparison, but do you think it’s truly accurate? You’re comparing a country and seat of a world religion to a theme park. And, even so (even if it was in Italy, that is), is it not an italian restaurant just because it’s touristic and not “for locals”? That just sounds like a No True Scotsman.
  - jdminhbg 3y ago
    > You’re comparing a country and seat of a world religion to a theme park. Well, you'll notice I didn't say inside the Vatican, which is in fact a serious place with serious art treasures. > And, even so (even if it was in Italy, that is), is it not an italian restaurant just because it’s touristic and not “for locals”? I didn't say it wouldn't be Italian, and I didn't say Planet Hollywood isn't American. I did say they are both extreme outliers. Bill Gates is American, but his life and mine have almost nothing in common apart from language and what our passports look like. You don't learn much about American lives from looking at Bill Gates.

asdajksah2123 3y ago

I've always been a good tipper (> 20% even before the pandemic), but I'm increasingly unwilling to do so. My argument is fairly simple. Tipping is a tax on decency. Decent people tip well. Assholes don't tip. And it's the decent people who get screwed. I'd much rather a restaurant tack on a 20% or even 25% service fee that everyone, including the assholes, must pay rather than asking for tips and depending on my decency to compensate for the restaurant underpaying its employees, while allowing assholes to get away with contributing nothing.

babyshake 3y ago
One thing to add to this is tipping with POS systems at fast food restaurants, coffee shops, etc. is always done before you receive your items. I much prefer to tip after I have received everything, since the tip is supposed to reflect your satisfaction with service and is a useful incentive for good, quick service.
- scelerat 3y ago
  > is a useful incentive for good, quick service This is frequently said, but has anyone done any work to show that it's actually true? That tips work as an incentive for measurably better or improved service? Or to what degree it is true? Just wondering. I have a lot of friends in the service industry and, like people in many other careers, beyond a particular baseline of compensation and satisfaction, it seems that good performance is as much about intrinsic motivations as it is about extrinsic factors. The best people often simply want to do a good job. If the tips or overall comp isn't satisfactory, they either find a different place to work or take additional shifts at another bar or restaurant.
  - achates 3y ago
    I've never seen a study but Planet Money interviewed some waiters back in the day and they all said the trick to making a lot in tips is turning over tables as fast as possible.
    - 3y ago

ary 3y ago

As usual of "reporting" in the United States this is devoid of anything beyond informing the reader that something happened. Tipping in this country should be called what it is: customer subsidization of service worker wages. Restaurants are allowed to pay their workers below minimum wage because of the expectation for tips. The answer has been clear for a while now. Require full minimum wage (not that it's enough) for all service workers regardless of their role and require that all tips be pooled for everyone working a given shift. As others have mentioned the tipping culture in the U.S. has its roots in the abuses of the antebellum South. Tipping is paternalistic and many people treat it as a way to exercise power over service workers. It needs to be abolished, but as with most things we'll probably have to do it in phases.

ugh123 3y ago

Also remember that the union representing Apple store employees is pushing for tipping: https://www.entrepreneur.com/business-news/apple-store-proposes-tipping-system-for-customers/451920#:~:text=%22Apple%20will%20integrate%20a%20tipping,well%20done%20without%20any%20obligations https://www.entrepreneur.com/business-news/apple-store-propo....

kashunstva 3y ago

Maybe the net effect of default tip screens on POS terminals is positive from the vendor’s perspective; but for me it’s negative. I tip less now than ever because the whole system is opaque to me. I have no idea who’s getting how much. I don’t know how the cost of the goods and services I’m purchasing relate to actual cost of provision. Why am I voluntarily putting in more than the asking price when I have no idea who is operating behind the scenes to extract value from the transaction. I’m sympathetic toward worker’s rights but the solution is in collective and political action, not in hiding it behind these one-off transactions.

monnok 3y ago
I lived about 40 years under a sort of social truce with tipping culture. Tipping is inherently too transactional and too patronizing for my comfort. But the social construct, including laws, around server wages and tips was so well established I was able to establish a sort of loose personal policy. This truce allowed me to tip consistently and generously transaction after transaction. Yet, it allowed me to still somewhat abstract each tip from its transactional and patronizing character. Not only is that social truce now violated, it is violated specifically within our new global environment of every-transaction-of-any-kind-is-a-novel-attempt-at-customer-exploitation. Every supposed price is already a mystery, and every voluntary tip screen is a mystery with an ethical puzzle and a face to face confrontation. I’ve drastically scaled back my use of services because it is emotionally taxing for me to confront the utter pettiness of trying to guess how much I should be paying for hot noodles from day to day.

rhplus 3y ago

A perennial gripe about tipping is that it’s usually based on value of goods, rather than value of service. Pouring a $7 glass of wine takes exactly the same effort as a $14 glass of wine, but one earns the wait staff double the tip.

codegeek 3y ago

TIP = To Insure Promptness. That is where it comes from. Nowadays, everyone expects a Tip and restaurants are getting cuter by adding those screens on payment devices. I love to tip if I actually got a great service at a traditional sit down restaurant where a waiter actually takes care of my order and pays attention. But getting tired of every food place trying to force us to pay Tips. Don't forget delivery charge if you order delivery AND then you still gotta pay that drive a Tip (expected to).

swozey 3y ago
> TIP = To Insure Promptness. TIL. I'd never even thought about the possibility of it being an acronym.. Edit: Nevermind snopes says that isn't true https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/tip-sheet/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/tip-sheet/

darkwizard42 3y ago

I guess my question is what do I do in a region where the minimum wage is quite high (CA) and there is no longer a tip-included-below-minimum-wage minimum wage? Do I continue to tip even thought I now know my servers make a fair wage (and the bill often includes healthcare mandates etc.)?

darth_avocado 3y ago

While most of the conversation is focused on “ohh restaurants pay less than minimum wage, therefore we should tip”. I think more of the conversation needs to happen on the side of “why do more people expect tips for just doing their bare minimum?”. Tips are showing up for things where employees are not paid less than minimum wage like bakeries, flower shops, clothing stores, fast food, ice cream shops etc. The weirdest one was a bicycle shop where they charged me $120 before taxes for a “tune up” on a $500 bicycle and then presented me with the 20, 25 and 30% menu. I almost laughed out loud on this one.

Fervicus 3y ago

I went to a hole in the wall place the other day, the kind with no seating. The machine shows me tipping options of: 20%, 25%, and 30%. I have also seen restaurants add a gratuity of 20% for parties of 4 or more automatically and then ask you for tip on top of that. This kind of thing is sadly getting more and more common.

supertofu 3y ago

I haven't gone to a sit-down restaurant since the pandemic began. What with compulsory tipping, inflation, and a huge reduction in quality, I'm finding it hard to justify the cost. I still enjoy food trucks and takeout... but restaurants are a pass.

shockeychap 3y ago

My biggest problem is the use of "dark patterns" in the UX of POS systems. Firstly, a tip should be something that is asked for AFTER the service has been provided, as it's meant to both reward and incentivize good service. Modern POS systems have broken this construct by prompting for a tip at places like Panera, Five Guys, Starbucks, and others before any service has been received. Secondly, a tip should be directed to those who provided the service. Yet, in the POS systems described above, there's no way to know who is receiving the tip. Oftentimes even the manager doesn't know. Lastly, IF the above is going to be violated, then, at the very least, a customer should be assured that the staff behind the counter will not see the tip amount right away. As it is, I'm made to worry that if I don't tip well, the staff will see it and adjust the service I get. The whole process is guided by dark patterns that seek to leverage guilt and the threat of being perceived as a bad customer to extract higher tips in lieu of raising wages and adjusting prices to match.

gnulinux 3y ago
The worst dark pattern I see in big cities I frequent in (Boston and NYC) is that these POS systems have absolutely ridiculous default settings. I've seen coffee shops that show "25%, 30%, 35%" on the tipping screen. Look, before COVID I would never even tip a barista for coffee, due to COVID we said "sure" but I've never tipped anyone 25% in my entire life. How dare a coffee shop defaults to 25% as the "lowest" option?! When I see these I immediately click "Skip". It's absolutely a psychological scam, they just hope you'll impulsively click the lowest setting.

willio58 3y ago

I've been wondering what the true solution is. I see more and more restaurants removing tips from the equation and just charging more and supposedly paying their employees better. But that's still a tiny portion of all restaurants. I wonder if one day we'll see a state ban tipping (or at least asking for tips) and institute some type of pay restructure so tipped employees don't get screwed. But what that looks like, I have no idea. Tipping has really gone from a nice gesture to workers to a whole other beast where customers are massively subsidizing the pay for workers. It's a lose-lose for anyone but the businesses.

jgb1984 3y ago

As a European, this whole concept is mind boggling. Just show me a price for a service or an item, and I'll pay it. The listed prices for us already include any taxes and charges. If you're having a nice meal and you're satisfied with the service delivered you can leave a little extra. But there's no pressure or expectation to do so. I remember visiting NYC and being baffled by how the hamburger listed at $ 5 ends up costing $ 12 in the end.

kazbars 3y ago

Why do we tip? If for a fare wage, does the server deserve less because I ordered a salad instead of a steak? If for service, what is 'good service'? Can you quantify it? Do you even want it to begin with? Perhaps the next time you're about to sit down at a restaurant you should request the 'zero tip' experience. This should give you a lower bound from which to judge off of, if indeed you value the 'service' enough at all.

HALtheWise 3y ago

My current rules for tipping is that I'll tip when all three of the following are true: - The quality of the service I came to get is significantly impacted by a single employee - That employee is the one receiving the tip - I am only asked for the tip after I have been able to judge the quality of the service When those things are true (waiters, haircuts, Uber drivers) then I'll tip generously and with high variance. When they aren't (fast food, Starbucks, etc) then I try not to tip, although fighting the peer pressure is definitely hard. The goal is that the best hairstylists/waiters/drivers make enough in tips to have it be a high-paying job they love, and the worst are incentivised to move to an industry where their skills are a better fit. If the general quality of the service is good for reasons not related to a specific employee, I'll do all the normal things (rating highly on Google Maps, returning frequently, recommending to friends), so tipping is only arguably useful when it's directed feedback to a single person. I do wish restaurants allowed a separate tip line for "tip the waiter" and "tip the chef" though.

activiation 3y ago

Tipping should be illegal in a lot of cases, if not all. They need to pay their employees a living wage.

JohnFen 3y ago
I don't think it should be illegal. I should be able to give a monetary gift to people if I choose. But it has to stop being effectively mandatory, and employers should not be factoring tips in when they're determining what they pay their employees.

theshrike79 3y ago

It's hilarious how giving and requesting a "tips" is socially acceptable. But if a company would change the name to anything else, there would be a huge revolt.

greenyoda 3y ago

Big discussion a week ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36213929 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36213929