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> In short, my brain has crossed a Rubicon and now feels like experiences constrained to small, rectangular screens are lesser experiences. I left Apple 1.5 ye

> In short, my brain has crossed a Rubicon and now feels like experiences constrained to small, rectangular screens are lesser experiences. I left Apple 1.5 years ago but was working on the Vision Pro while I was there. I have spend many hours working in the headset and I know exactly the feeling he's describing! Leaving felt like going back in time to using clunky technology and I've been waiting for outside world to catch up (and will still be waiting until it comes out at least). For the past week I've been trying to explain to people how certain I am that doing work in headsets will become mainstream but am (understandably) met with doubt, and I think you'd need to try it on to fully understand.

macintux 3y ago
From your experience with it, what do you think about the fatigue factor, either visually or just neck strain? From all accounts it’s quite heavy.
- jondwillis 3y ago
  Unironically it might be smart to start 3d printing and testing some iNeckBrace designs.
  - Vecr 3y ago
    Or a bump helmet and hook the whole thing to the Night Vision Goggle mount on the front (like the new IVAS design), and put counterweights on the back to prevent it from shifting down. That could take a lot of pressure off your face and make the whole headborne system more balanced.
    - kitsunesoba 3y ago
      Counterweights are already a pretty common thing for existing VR headsets. Some people will strap a battery pack to the back strap of their headsets, and there's enough tethered players looking for plain counterweights that's there's a small cottage industry around custom made heavy metal counterweights. Here's the one that I bought to use with my "frankenquest" (Vive Deluxe Audio Strap on a Quest 2) setup: https://www.studioformcreative.com/product-page/vive-das-200-gram-7-oz-curved-counter-weight https://www.studioformcreative.com/product-page/vive-das-200...
  - daemonk 3y ago
    I actually would not mind a ceiling mounted design where the headset is counterweighted so it is essentially "floating" and you pull it down to put on your head. I know it will take away from the mobility of the headset, but I am okay with being stuck to a 6ft radius while working. It could also charge through the ceiling.
- ladberg 3y ago
  For reference I was already pretty used to gaming in VR on inferior headsets before working on the Vision Pro, so I might be more forgiving of issues than your average person. I'd say that eye strain wasn't really an issue at all for me. When you take off the headset after a while inside of it you kinda get a jarring transition back to normal vision instead of passthrough, but passthrough doesn't have any noticeable issues when you're inside of it. It's almost like waking up from a dream where stuff feels different and you can't exactly place why. As for physical weight, it's lighter than other VR headsets I'm used to but obviously more than a pair of ski goggles. I'll echo MKBHD's thoughts that the most noticeable strain was on my nose because my lightseal (like the WWDC demos) wasn't as personalized as the version you'd get as a customer, so I fully expect that to be a non-issue.
  - robert_tweed 3y ago
    How is it in terms of heat & condensation build-up? Is there a certain amount of time after which it starts getting uncomfortable? Also, is passthrough good enough for things like typing, so you don't get an uncanny valley sense of the keys being just slightly off visually compared to your proprioception & touch?
    - ladberg 3y ago
      Heat and condensation build up is a complete non-issue due to the built in fans! I've never once felt hot or stuffy inside the Vision Pro, and I totally do on other VR headsets. I don't really look at my keyboard while typing so that's also a non-issue. For stuff where you really need hand-eye coordination it's totally fine at normal arms-length but gets worse as you get closer to your face. Finding a key on the keyboard with your eyes is not a big deal but if you try to drink from a glass of water you'll likely spill it on yourself the first time (and then eventually get used to it).
      - MBCook 3y ago
        Is that because the ‘warping’/offset used to try to hide the cameras not being right where your eyes actually are starts to lose its effectiveness? I wondered about that. Great to hear about heat. That was always an issue for me in other headsets.
highwaylights 3y ago
I don’t want to be nosey but given that it sounds like you feel like it’s a paradigm shifting device, and you’ve actually worked on and with the device, I’d be interested to read about your motivations for moving on from Apple/the project when you did if you ever feel like writing about it. So many questions I’d love to ask you about this, but again, none of my business. Just wanted to let you know I’d upvote that blog post to the moon should you ever decide to write it.
- ladberg 3y ago
  Thanks! My motivations were mostly comp based (I'm in HFT now), I loved the product and the team I was on! Feel free to ask any questions here and I'll answer anything I can (e.g. no unreleased info, but maybe go into more detail about the kind of stuff that was shown to devs at WWDC). No blog right now but maybe in the future :)
  - CrazyStat 3y ago
    A major limitation for using VR devices as "virtual monitors" has been the screen resolution. Vision Pro appears to have significantly higher resolution than anything available on the market right now; in your experience, was the resolution high enough for the pixels to disappear and not be a distraction, especially when e.g. reading text? Have you used other VR headsets to compare it to?
    - ladberg 3y ago
      I've used other VR headsets and it's significantly better than everything I've tried. You'll be able to put up virtual monitors at the same density as real life and read stuff fine, I couldn't really discern pixels at all. Reading physical monitors through passthrough is a bit harder (I increased text size a few points when I needed to do this) but isn't really something you'd do for actual work.
      - jedberg 3y ago
        Lol this comment made a fun image pop into my head. Being in a work meeting with my Vision Pro on looking at the presentation through passthrough while browsing HN on my virtual screen. :) The idea of looking at real screens in passthrough didn't even occur to me.
Dudester230602 3y ago
> ...doing work in headsets... Is it possible to use Vision Pro to build and publish a Vision Pro app? Because it seems to be another Apple device separating producers and consumers just like iPad and iPhone.
- htag 3y ago
  They said it runs xcode, so I'd assume so
- senttoschool 3y ago
  This is a valid question and should not be downvoted. Are we going to be able to create a large software project using it without carrying around a MacBook as well? It’d be nice to be able to run macOS when I travel and not have to bring my MacBook.
  - bun_at_work 3y ago
    This seems more than a little likely, as Vision Pro has an M2 chip for processing, and the R1 for vision processing. If your work needs a fully-capable GPU, that's probably a different story, although most graphics work (like photo editing/video editing) should run well on the M2.
    - MBCook 3y ago
      On the other hand, the iPad Pros have M1s (M2s?) but so far Apple keeps them constrained.
  - IggleSniggle 3y ago
    From the ad, it looked to me like you get a iPad-esque computing device when standalone, but that it tethers and can act as a display for macOS. Just speculative of course, but in the ad they said something like, “connect to your MacBook to extend all your MacBook apps onto the Vision Pro.” I suspect that, like the iPad, there will be ways to force it to function as a standalone device, but that the happy path will be heavily optimized towards you buying as much Apple hardware as possible.
derefr 3y ago
You sound like you're measuring this leap as the Vision Pro vs. not using a headset at all. How much of a leap is it if you're already using e.g. an XREAL Air for display mirroring — and you're planning to mostly use the Vision Pro for that same use-case?
- ladberg 3y ago
  I haven't used the XREAL AIR personally but I've used similar devices and it's pretty night-and-day I think: - Sensors: It looks like the XREAL AIR doesn't have any sensors so just displays the monitor in a fixed position on screen, which is pretty different than loading up monitors in a fixed point in space and being able to look away at other stuff. Also eye tracking is a pretty killer feature that totally changes the game in my opinion, I wouldn't personally buy a headset without it after having experienced it. - VR vs AR display: As I'm sure you're aware, with AR sunglasses you can't really have anything darker than the actual light passing through so you're limited to only rendering stuff brighter than the surroundings. Maybe for text it's fine but not for images or video in my opinion. I can't find any footage taken through the XREAL AIR lens (and their website doesn't faithfully show this effect) so idk exactly how big the difference will be for you. - FOV: I'm not actually sure what the FOV is of the Vision Pro but it's significantly higher than 46°. And because usable area increases with the square, you'd be able to fit a few times more displays and other stuff in. - Resolution: XREAL AIR looks to be 1080p, Vision Pro is way better than that (per-degree too), so you can have better looking and smaller text.
king_magic 3y ago
I guess the big question I have is... what's the point of an extremely expensive headset when it looks like Quest 3 at 7x less the price is going to deliver a roughly similar experience, quality-wise?
- k2enemy 3y ago
  I think the simple answer is that the Quest 3 will not deliver a roughly similar experience, quality-wise.
  - king_magic 3y ago
    I mean maybe? My gut feeling is Quest 3 will be more than good enough for most people/use cases, and people will be more than happy to pay 7x less for what is - at the end of the day - basically the same experience. Vision Pro looks like a better version of HoloLens of yesteryear. Doesn’t really seem all that groundbreaking to me, just more refined.
- MBCook 3y ago
  We don’t know anything about the Quest 3, other than “better than 2”. I seriously doubt it comes close to what Apple is doing. The price just isn’t anywhere near high enough.
  - spywaregorilla 3y ago
    As we all know, Apple would never offer products at an elevated price
    - sleepybrett 3y ago
      you think meta is offering oculus devices at cost or as a loss leader? Fact is there is a laptop chip stuffed into this headset, there is a mobile soc in the oculus line.
      - spywaregorilla 3y ago
doctorpangloss 3y ago
How did it compare to the Varjo XR-3?
- ladberg 3y ago
  Unfortunately I haven't tried that one! $6,500 is a bit out of my personal price range haha and I didn't get a chance to try all the competitors while I was at Apple.
  - yread 3y ago
    So, 6500 is outrageously expensive but 3500 is alright?
    - _aavaa_ 3y ago
      Both are expensive, but afaik that 6,500 only gets you a headset, you still need a computer to power it.
    - ladberg 3y ago
      I'm not saying 3500 is "alright", it's definitely still expensive! I would say 6500 is too much for a better version of something I already have that doesn't really enable any additional usecases. The Vision Pro would be used pretty differently than my Vive (which is just the occasional gaming session right now). I'd think of it as more competing with iPads, external monitors, and laptops than a Varjo right now.
    - prawn 3y ago
      They were given and working on Vision Pro for work. So it’s free vs $6500.
- judge2020 3y ago
  Supposedly same/better passthrough, which is great for a headset at nearly half the price. http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https://www.reddit.com/r/virtualreality/comments/141weu5/apple_vision_pro_has_better_pass_through_than_the/ http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https:/...
sanderjd 3y ago
I'm not very skeptical on the "doing work" side of the question. (Though I do wonder about the price point.) But I am skeptical on the "doing life" side.
- ladberg 3y ago
  Yeah I don't think I'll be using one at dinner or hanging out in-person with friends any time soon, but there are a lot of non-work things I'd happily use it for. Gaming, TV, casual internet browsing, stationary exercise, socializing with people remotely (e.g. VRChat instead of Zoom/FaceTime), passing time on trains+planes, etc.
  - sanderjd 3y ago
    At this point in my life, I do all that stuff with my family around me, and can't imagine being stuck inside a headset.
animatethrow 3y ago
> I've been trying to explain to people how certain I am that doing work in headsets will become mainstream but am (understandably) met with doubt Tech enthusiasts underestimate how much the general public hates having gear strapped to their faces and over their hair, especially more than half of women who put considerable effort into their face makeup and hair.
- sleepybrett 3y ago
  I think this 1.0 is problematic and it will take several more leaps to get to where we need to be. Something more like swimming goggles (without the suction), visualized in the bladerunner sequel on the face of 'love' when she's calling in artillery on K in the 'junkyard'.
- _urvc 3y ago
  Every headset I have seen looks really unfashionable. Even the Vision Pro looks kind of bad. It is too bulky for the relaxing atmosphere Apple was going for in its adverts. And too rounded to appear more edgy. It is not commiting to anything, kind of like the new Macbook Pro design. This stands in contrast to Airpods (small but bold shape) and the Apple Watch (practical and elegant).
  - amelius 3y ago
    This is what the Airpods look like to me: https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-37306404 https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-37306404
  - throwaway675309 3y ago
    I must be one of the only people in existence who absolutely hates the aesthetic look of AirPods, for lack of a better word, they're abnormally "long" looking when they're hanging from one's ears.
    - hbn 3y ago
      The stems make them easy to orient in your ears without looking, and it brings the mics closer to your mouth.
hebrox 3y ago
Did team members actually use it to develop it?
- ladberg 3y ago
  I was developing stuff to be shown inside the headset that wouldn't have worked in the simulator, so I was frequently using the headset regardless. It was often easier to just leave it on and develop than constantly put it on and take it off to test things out. As for development of non-VR stuff I personally didn't because I already had a fully-featured desk setup and the OS at the time was buggy enough to not want to deal with it (as every OS is years before release, not a ding on Vision Pro at all). With a good OS (which it will be upon release) and more native apps (like Termius on iPad) I definitely would though!
  - wincy 3y ago
    Do you think it’ll allow Xcode for development? When you say you were wearing it while doing dev work were you pairing it with a MacBook? From what I understand the OS is more similar to iPadOS (no Xcode, ability to compile binaries) vs MacOS.
    - ladberg 3y ago
      I honestly don't know that will be supported on the final version, but what I was referring to was developing on a Mac through the Vision Pro and deploying to the Vision Pro. FWIW the iPad supports dumbed down app development through Swift Playgrounds and presumably the Vision Pro will at the very least support that if it supports all iPad apps, but that's pure speculation.
jakemoshenko 3y ago
I've had a question that I haven't seen anyone else ask that you might be able to shed some light on: is there an internal battery to facilitate switching power sources without an instant loss of continuity?
losvedir 3y ago
> For the past week I've been trying to explain to people how certain I am that doing work in headsets will become mainstream This gets at my main question about this: does it feel to you like it will be great for "doing work", which generally happens at discrete places, or something which will apply to life generally, which is the kind of (some would say dystopian) ideal of "augmented reality"? Or put another way, I felt a huge increase in immersion and interest going from the original Oculus's three degrees of freedom to the "room scale" six degrees of freedom in Quest. I know this is "spatial computing" and you can put monitors in fixed positions in the environment, but is "desk scale" where you can kind of look around and pivot your head, or "room scale" where you can get up and move around the room, or "life scale" where you can leave the room entirely to check on the screens you left in the kitchen before coming back to sit down in front of the ones in your office?
- manuelflara 3y ago
  > or "life scale" where you can leave the room entirely to check on the screens you left in the kitchen before coming back to sit down in front of the ones in your office? according to the videos they show, people move around a lot in a room with these things on, grab things (e.g. their phone, cup of coffee). and makes sense, if you see basically what you have in front of you, then there's no "boundaries" you should stay in not to bump into things.
- ladberg 3y ago
  I think it'll be great for "doing work", but I'm not entirely sure if it'll immediately outclass my in-office setup that my employer has already spent thousands on. However, I don't have a wfh setup in my small apartment because I didn't want to dedicate space for that purpose, so when I occasionally need to wfh I just use a laptop on my couch or dining table and I would love it to replace that. I think if an employer were speccing out a new office it would definitely be a viable option to have a small laptop + Vision Pro instead of desktop (or bigger laptop) + multiple external monitors. I also don't expect it to be super dystopian or replace real life in general, but it could definitely replace the parts where you're already looking at a screen regardless. It is technically capable of being "life scale" in the way that you describe: it tries to keep a consistent coordinate system across multiple reboots and from room to room and real life objects can occlude virtual objects, but to be honest I have no clue what the average use case will be or how the OS will enforce it.
ren_engineer 3y ago
any opinion on why Apple isn't dogfooding this by allowing their software and non-hardware teams to work remotely? Seems like that would be one way to prove it is legit
- prawn 3y ago
  They only just announced it and had many details well hidden prior to launch. I think over the next few months, they’ll definitely have Apple staff using it around a controlled office and then later from home. At this point, I doubt they’d be letting them off campus.
- dwaite 3y ago
  Up until now, they most likely didn't allow it outside the building.
schaefer 3y ago
Hi Ladberg, When you worked with Vision Pro, did it have a device native terminal and/or a device native ssh client? What I mean by that is a terminal running under VisionOS, as opposed to getting terminal access by first connecting to a remote computer.
- joeman1000 3y ago
  Maybe for Apple development, but given that it’s positioned as an iOS-type device, the public will never get a native terminal on this thing. It would be unprecedented.
  - drcode 3y ago
    I very much hope they allow sandboxed terminal access (like WSL on windows) but I expect they won't.
    - joeman1000 3y ago
      Yea no way. Unless you jailbreak. I would love it, though. The iPhone, iPad and now this thing would be great if there we could just opt to jailbreak without risks. I don’t jailbreak my phone because it’s risky and I don’t mind having it stock. The iPad would be great if I could run anything properly on it. The Vision Pro would be phenomenal. I’m thinking of all the game ports that could happen if the OS wasn’t locked down. I see their rationale in doing it, to retain control over the quality of the user-experience. But for those users who want to experiment, it just hampers their experience instead.
8f2ab37a-ed6c 3y ago
Based on your experience with the device, do you feel like the first version will be good enough to replace a multi-monitor setup for software developers, and allow them instead to fully switch to using the Vision Pro instead? Or is that monitor-less future for developers still a few iterations away?
- ladberg 3y ago
  Depends what you mean by "fully switch". I think it's good enough to replace a few monitors but at the same time there are use cases for monitors that it can't replace, like showing something on your screen to someone next to you. I'm sure some developers will switch over on the first generation, some will wait until it gets lighter/cheaper/more immersive (disclosure: I have no clue what's coming in the future), and some might never switch if they just plain don't like having something on their head.
  - 8f2ab37a-ed6c 3y ago
    Great insight, thank you!
  - zaptrem 3y ago
    What was the upper limit on number of virtual monitors you could stream from a Mac when you were working on it? The demo videos only ever show one which doesn't seem all that useful. Optimally you'd be able to just drag the actual MacOS windows out into space and the cursor would just hop to them when you look at them.
tikimcfee 3y ago
I feel like I’ve been spamming this everywhere and any time I get the chance, but I really want people to join in and help define this experience with me for developers. https://github.com/tikimcfee/LookAtThat https://github.com/tikimcfee/LookAtThat AR VR for iOS and macOS. Millions of glyphs. Instant control. There’s magic here. If this excites you, work with me and help make this a reality! I don’t have all of it in me. I wish I did. I don’t. I don’t have all the time and energy. But there are people here that if they spent just a little time to work on this, we would be in the future of a 3D code space in days, and not weeks or months. I owe a new readme for the project. If any of this makes you feel any feelies, get in contact with me star it, make noise, whatever! Lotta love to yall. Thanks for letting me vomit words.
- theaussiestew 3y ago
  I've been wanting to make this kind of thing for a while now. Basically canvas and 3D view for code. This looks super cool, but I was more thinking for a general platform like VSCode, rather than something limited to the MacOS eco-system. What's the best way to get in touch with you?
  - tikimcfee 3y ago
    Totally feel ya there. If I had a different sorta history, I would have like to have started with something like d3 or even Unity… alas, poor me, heh. I’d love to chat! My email’s fairly public, so feel free to ping me at thelugos @pm.me (no space).
no_wizard 3y ago
would you recommend buying 2 and replacing your TVs with it? I'm legit thinking about this, because the home theater setup I'm looking at will cost nearly the same, but two of these + a great audio system would be amazing. The real question is, can you make two devices sync to each other simultaneously. Probably not I'm imagining
- PettingRabbits 3y ago
  I hope it kickstarts more development in surround sound headphones. I live in a small condo and have a big 4K projector set up. But I can't reasonably do surround sound or turn up the volume. Apple Vision. + surround headphones would be awesome, or projector + many pairs of surround headphones for group experiences.
- ladberg 3y ago
  The problem is that it puts a hard cap on how many people can enjoy your home theater, so that might be an issue. If you already have a space carved out for a home theater and were thinking of entertaining >2 people then I'm not entirely sure what the value add of the headset would be. In my opinion the benefit comes in getting a home-theater-like experience that you can bring anywhere and not have to dedicate space in your home for. Third party developers will definitely be capable of adding a sync feature like you're describing but I have no clue if they will.
- zmmmmm 3y ago
  Shared space interaction was notably missing from the keynote. I'm very curious what the vision for the platform for it will be. Meta has put a lot of focus on it so there are a bunch of Quest apps and games where people inhabit the same phyiscal space and all the virtual objects are shared. I feel like it's essential for a platform like this to ultimately succeed, and curious that Apple appears behind Meta on this front.
  - dwaite 3y ago
    Whether it has capabilities here or not, it seems like it would be challenging at a $3500 price point to say "and here's features you get if you buy one for each member of your family". Within an app, the challenge would be identifying they occupy the same space and mapping into the same coordinate system. Easier for VR mode than AR mode, where your mapping can be pretty arbitrary to the available bounds.
amelius 3y ago
Just wait until you get messages of "in-app purchases" and advertisements and they keep following you around. Then the real world will feel like paradise.
- alphabettsy 3y ago
  iOS doesn’t operate this way. Why would it be different here?
  - amelius 3y ago
    Because they appear as giant billboards instead of on a screen of a few square inches.
alpinemeadow 3y ago
would you buy it when it becomes available?
- ladberg 3y ago
  I'm confident I'll buy a version of the headset at some point, but I don't know yet if I'll buy it right at release. I'm not saying that because I have any additional knowledge of future products (I don't), just that, like the rest of you, I want to see the ecosystem get fleshed out and not have to pay the early adopter tax. I think it will be great for work but who knows when a great remote code editor and terminal will show up on the App Store, right? It's also not novel to me because I've spent a while using it already, so I'm not exactly in a rush to test it out just to see all the features.
  - alpinemeadow 3y ago
    I can agree with many of your points. For me, probably many, the price needs to be in line to a laptop replacement to be considered an option.
steveBK123 3y ago
I see the productivity use case more useful than the entertainment ones, and without the social stigma of hanging around on your sofa weirding out spouse/kids. However most of the previews I read do point to some amount of weight/comfort ergonomics that I think play against the productivity use case. Basically my work compute needs to be ergonomic enough to use for 8-12 hours/day. I have a hard time believing we can live in this headset for anything north of 2-3 hours at best.
- sroussey 3y ago
  Being able to watch movies in bed and let your spouse sleep without a lot of light is definitely a use case.
  - Reimersholme 3y ago
    [dead]
  - jml78 3y ago
    There are now definitive studies that sleeping with a blackout mask greatly improves sleep quality. I just got my spouse onboard with wearing one and she says it is night and day difference for her. I have to wear a cpap so I haven’t found an eyemask that works with my cpap headgear.
  - MaxikCZ 3y ago
    I dont know, but I dont think this wull really allow to watch movies in bed. I have trouble even using small in-ear headphones in any other position than laying on my back, because just the pillow pressure acting on the headphone piece is so anoying. This headset has a strap around the head that will add unfamiliar pressure from basically every direction you would rest your head on.
mmlkrx 3y ago
Thank you for answering all these little questions, hope I'm not too late :) 1. Could I take a disconnected cable keyboard and "anchor" the virtual keyboard to overlay the real one to get the haptical feedback when typing on the virtual keyboard? 2. I'm very excited about "hanging out in VR" but initial impressions of Persona avatars seem to be mixed. Do you think people will eventually get used to Personas after using them for longer or are we not quite there yet? 3. What is the focal distance for the eyes? 4. What are you most excited for using the Vision Pro again once it comes out :)? I definitely can't wait to upgrade from my original HTC Vive!
- ladberg 3y ago
  1. I don't really know of any feature like this but can't say for certain. I'd highly recommend investing in a bluetooth keyboard for work in the headset (or keep your cable keyboard plugged into your computer and mirror the screen into the headset). 2. Honestly no clue how the public will react to Apple's avatars, but keep in mind that third party apps are free to create experiences like that and I'm sure you'll see a dozen VRChat clones taking off. 3. Not sure! I never ran into any issues but I also don't need glasses. 4. I personally am a VR gaming enthusiast and despite gaming not being the core use case of the Vision Pro, I'm very excited to see what people do with it. If you've played Half Life Alyx you know how fun gravity gloves are, so imagine having games that have graphics and physics that can seamlessly blend with real life. Use your hands to toss around virtual objects that bounce off walls in the real environment! The cool thing is that this is all super easy to develop for now: all the scene understanding, rendering, hand tracking, physics, etc. is all handled by the device so you can probably whip up a gravity gloves prototype in a few lines of code.
  - TheRealNGenius 3y ago
    [dead]
  - mmlkrx 3y ago
    Awesome, thanks for answering! And yes, question one was also partly motivated by gaming :) I understand it doesn't ship with controllers, but I was wondering if the cameras/depth sensors/software are good enough to recognize and track for example a ping pong paddle. Apart from that, I really hope Apple will work with more game engines in the future. I rented an HTC Vive Pro 2 last year just to play through Half Life Alyx and everything about this experience was so, so good (especially Jeff). Would be incredible if it ran on the Vision Pro eventually but I guess Source 2 is probably not on the engine list :) One last question I actually had if you don't mind. How do you think gestures will evolve once the headset releases? I understand there are a few basic gestures defined already, like clicking, dragging, zooming, but what about cmd + Z or deleting something. I'm sure eventually people will expect the same gestures for those actions across apps but I didn't see any mention on them so far. Any thoughts on how those might emerge?
archagon 3y ago
I fear Apple’s effort will be limited to an iPad-like content consumption experience without the platform opening up to a Mac-like degree. And that no other company has the chops to “cross the Rubicon” in such a comprehensive way, dooming AR/VR to a niche of limited usefulness.
- donmcronald 3y ago
  This is the main issue for me. At a minimum, the screens and virtual computers need to be completely open. I can’t live 100% in the Apple world for productivity.
- boppo1 3y ago
  Yep. Browser-excel isn't good enough, I need the full version.
machdiamonds 3y ago
Hi, curious about the foveated rendering on this headset. Theoretically, it should offer a 10x+ performance boost, but headsets like Quest Pro and PSVR haven’t achieved much with it. How does this compare?
NotMichaelBay 3y ago
[flagged]

macintux 3y ago

From your experience with it, what do you think about the fatigue factor, either visually or just neck strain? From all accounts it’s quite heavy.

jondwillis 3y ago
Unironically it might be smart to start 3d printing and testing some iNeckBrace designs.
- Vecr 3y ago
  Or a bump helmet and hook the whole thing to the Night Vision Goggle mount on the front (like the new IVAS design), and put counterweights on the back to prevent it from shifting down. That could take a lot of pressure off your face and make the whole headborne system more balanced.
  - kitsunesoba 3y ago
    Counterweights are already a pretty common thing for existing VR headsets. Some people will strap a battery pack to the back strap of their headsets, and there's enough tethered players looking for plain counterweights that's there's a small cottage industry around custom made heavy metal counterweights. Here's the one that I bought to use with my "frankenquest" (Vive Deluxe Audio Strap on a Quest 2) setup: https://www.studioformcreative.com/product-page/vive-das-200-gram-7-oz-curved-counter-weight https://www.studioformcreative.com/product-page/vive-das-200...
- daemonk 3y ago
  I actually would not mind a ceiling mounted design where the headset is counterweighted so it is essentially "floating" and you pull it down to put on your head. I know it will take away from the mobility of the headset, but I am okay with being stuck to a 6ft radius while working. It could also charge through the ceiling.
ladberg 3y ago
For reference I was already pretty used to gaming in VR on inferior headsets before working on the Vision Pro, so I might be more forgiving of issues than your average person. I'd say that eye strain wasn't really an issue at all for me. When you take off the headset after a while inside of it you kinda get a jarring transition back to normal vision instead of passthrough, but passthrough doesn't have any noticeable issues when you're inside of it. It's almost like waking up from a dream where stuff feels different and you can't exactly place why. As for physical weight, it's lighter than other VR headsets I'm used to but obviously more than a pair of ski goggles. I'll echo MKBHD's thoughts that the most noticeable strain was on my nose because my lightseal (like the WWDC demos) wasn't as personalized as the version you'd get as a customer, so I fully expect that to be a non-issue.
- robert_tweed 3y ago
  How is it in terms of heat & condensation build-up? Is there a certain amount of time after which it starts getting uncomfortable? Also, is passthrough good enough for things like typing, so you don't get an uncanny valley sense of the keys being just slightly off visually compared to your proprioception & touch?
  - ladberg 3y ago
    Heat and condensation build up is a complete non-issue due to the built in fans! I've never once felt hot or stuffy inside the Vision Pro, and I totally do on other VR headsets. I don't really look at my keyboard while typing so that's also a non-issue. For stuff where you really need hand-eye coordination it's totally fine at normal arms-length but gets worse as you get closer to your face. Finding a key on the keyboard with your eyes is not a big deal but if you try to drink from a glass of water you'll likely spill it on yourself the first time (and then eventually get used to it).
    - MBCook 3y ago
      Is that because the ‘warping’/offset used to try to hide the cameras not being right where your eyes actually are starts to lose its effectiveness? I wondered about that. Great to hear about heat. That was always an issue for me in other headsets.

highwaylights 3y ago

I don’t want to be nosey but given that it sounds like you feel like it’s a paradigm shifting device, and you’ve actually worked on and with the device, I’d be interested to read about your motivations for moving on from Apple/the project when you did if you ever feel like writing about it. So many questions I’d love to ask you about this, but again, none of my business. Just wanted to let you know I’d upvote that blog post to the moon should you ever decide to write it.

ladberg 3y ago
Thanks! My motivations were mostly comp based (I'm in HFT now), I loved the product and the team I was on! Feel free to ask any questions here and I'll answer anything I can (e.g. no unreleased info, but maybe go into more detail about the kind of stuff that was shown to devs at WWDC). No blog right now but maybe in the future :)
- CrazyStat 3y ago
  A major limitation for using VR devices as "virtual monitors" has been the screen resolution. Vision Pro appears to have significantly higher resolution than anything available on the market right now; in your experience, was the resolution high enough for the pixels to disappear and not be a distraction, especially when e.g. reading text? Have you used other VR headsets to compare it to?
  - ladberg 3y ago
    I've used other VR headsets and it's significantly better than everything I've tried. You'll be able to put up virtual monitors at the same density as real life and read stuff fine, I couldn't really discern pixels at all. Reading physical monitors through passthrough is a bit harder (I increased text size a few points when I needed to do this) but isn't really something you'd do for actual work.
    - jedberg 3y ago
      Lol this comment made a fun image pop into my head. Being in a work meeting with my Vision Pro on looking at the presentation through passthrough while browsing HN on my virtual screen. :) The idea of looking at real screens in passthrough didn't even occur to me.

Dudester230602 3y ago

> ...doing work in headsets... Is it possible to use Vision Pro to build and publish a Vision Pro app? Because it seems to be another Apple device separating producers and consumers just like iPad and iPhone.

htag 3y ago
They said it runs xcode, so I'd assume so
senttoschool 3y ago
This is a valid question and should not be downvoted. Are we going to be able to create a large software project using it without carrying around a MacBook as well? It’d be nice to be able to run macOS when I travel and not have to bring my MacBook.
- bun_at_work 3y ago
  This seems more than a little likely, as Vision Pro has an M2 chip for processing, and the R1 for vision processing. If your work needs a fully-capable GPU, that's probably a different story, although most graphics work (like photo editing/video editing) should run well on the M2.
  - MBCook 3y ago
    On the other hand, the iPad Pros have M1s (M2s?) but so far Apple keeps them constrained.
- IggleSniggle 3y ago
  From the ad, it looked to me like you get a iPad-esque computing device when standalone, but that it tethers and can act as a display for macOS. Just speculative of course, but in the ad they said something like, “connect to your MacBook to extend all your MacBook apps onto the Vision Pro.” I suspect that, like the iPad, there will be ways to force it to function as a standalone device, but that the happy path will be heavily optimized towards you buying as much Apple hardware as possible.

derefr 3y ago

You sound like you're measuring this leap as the Vision Pro vs. not using a headset at all. How much of a leap is it if you're already using e.g. an XREAL Air for display mirroring — and you're planning to mostly use the Vision Pro for that same use-case?

ladberg 3y ago
I haven't used the XREAL AIR personally but I've used similar devices and it's pretty night-and-day I think: - Sensors: It looks like the XREAL AIR doesn't have any sensors so just displays the monitor in a fixed position on screen, which is pretty different than loading up monitors in a fixed point in space and being able to look away at other stuff. Also eye tracking is a pretty killer feature that totally changes the game in my opinion, I wouldn't personally buy a headset without it after having experienced it. - VR vs AR display: As I'm sure you're aware, with AR sunglasses you can't really have anything darker than the actual light passing through so you're limited to only rendering stuff brighter than the surroundings. Maybe for text it's fine but not for images or video in my opinion. I can't find any footage taken through the XREAL AIR lens (and their website doesn't faithfully show this effect) so idk exactly how big the difference will be for you. - FOV: I'm not actually sure what the FOV is of the Vision Pro but it's significantly higher than 46°. And because usable area increases with the square, you'd be able to fit a few times more displays and other stuff in. - Resolution: XREAL AIR looks to be 1080p, Vision Pro is way better than that (per-degree too), so you can have better looking and smaller text.

king_magic 3y ago

I guess the big question I have is... what's the point of an extremely expensive headset when it looks like Quest 3 at 7x less the price is going to deliver a roughly similar experience, quality-wise?

k2enemy 3y ago
I think the simple answer is that the Quest 3 will not deliver a roughly similar experience, quality-wise.
- king_magic 3y ago
  I mean maybe? My gut feeling is Quest 3 will be more than good enough for most people/use cases, and people will be more than happy to pay 7x less for what is - at the end of the day - basically the same experience. Vision Pro looks like a better version of HoloLens of yesteryear. Doesn’t really seem all that groundbreaking to me, just more refined.
MBCook 3y ago
We don’t know anything about the Quest 3, other than “better than 2”. I seriously doubt it comes close to what Apple is doing. The price just isn’t anywhere near high enough.
- spywaregorilla 3y ago
  As we all know, Apple would never offer products at an elevated price
  - sleepybrett 3y ago
    you think meta is offering oculus devices at cost or as a loss leader? Fact is there is a laptop chip stuffed into this headset, there is a mobile soc in the oculus line.
    - spywaregorilla 3y ago

doctorpangloss 3y ago

How did it compare to the Varjo XR-3?

ladberg 3y ago
Unfortunately I haven't tried that one! $6,500 is a bit out of my personal price range haha and I didn't get a chance to try all the competitors while I was at Apple.
- yread 3y ago
  So, 6500 is outrageously expensive but 3500 is alright?
  - _aavaa_ 3y ago
    Both are expensive, but afaik that 6,500 only gets you a headset, you still need a computer to power it.
  - ladberg 3y ago
    I'm not saying 3500 is "alright", it's definitely still expensive! I would say 6500 is too much for a better version of something I already have that doesn't really enable any additional usecases. The Vision Pro would be used pretty differently than my Vive (which is just the occasional gaming session right now). I'd think of it as more competing with iPads, external monitors, and laptops than a Varjo right now.
  - prawn 3y ago
    They were given and working on Vision Pro for work. So it’s free vs $6500.
judge2020 3y ago
Supposedly same/better passthrough, which is great for a headset at nearly half the price. http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https://www.reddit.com/r/virtualreality/comments/141weu5/apple_vision_pro_has_better_pass_through_than_the/ http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https:/...

sanderjd 3y ago

I'm not very skeptical on the "doing work" side of the question. (Though I do wonder about the price point.) But I am skeptical on the "doing life" side.

ladberg 3y ago
Yeah I don't think I'll be using one at dinner or hanging out in-person with friends any time soon, but there are a lot of non-work things I'd happily use it for. Gaming, TV, casual internet browsing, stationary exercise, socializing with people remotely (e.g. VRChat instead of Zoom/FaceTime), passing time on trains+planes, etc.
- sanderjd 3y ago
  At this point in my life, I do all that stuff with my family around me, and can't imagine being stuck inside a headset.

animatethrow 3y ago

> I've been trying to explain to people how certain I am that doing work in headsets will become mainstream but am (understandably) met with doubt Tech enthusiasts underestimate how much the general public hates having gear strapped to their faces and over their hair, especially more than half of women who put considerable effort into their face makeup and hair.

sleepybrett 3y ago
I think this 1.0 is problematic and it will take several more leaps to get to where we need to be. Something more like swimming goggles (without the suction), visualized in the bladerunner sequel on the face of 'love' when she's calling in artillery on K in the 'junkyard'.
_urvc 3y ago
Every headset I have seen looks really unfashionable. Even the Vision Pro looks kind of bad. It is too bulky for the relaxing atmosphere Apple was going for in its adverts. And too rounded to appear more edgy. It is not commiting to anything, kind of like the new Macbook Pro design. This stands in contrast to Airpods (small but bold shape) and the Apple Watch (practical and elegant).
- amelius 3y ago
  This is what the Airpods look like to me: https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-37306404 https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-37306404
- throwaway675309 3y ago
  I must be one of the only people in existence who absolutely hates the aesthetic look of AirPods, for lack of a better word, they're abnormally "long" looking when they're hanging from one's ears.
  - hbn 3y ago
    The stems make them easy to orient in your ears without looking, and it brings the mics closer to your mouth.

hebrox 3y ago

Did team members actually use it to develop it?

ladberg 3y ago
I was developing stuff to be shown inside the headset that wouldn't have worked in the simulator, so I was frequently using the headset regardless. It was often easier to just leave it on and develop than constantly put it on and take it off to test things out. As for development of non-VR stuff I personally didn't because I already had a fully-featured desk setup and the OS at the time was buggy enough to not want to deal with it (as every OS is years before release, not a ding on Vision Pro at all). With a good OS (which it will be upon release) and more native apps (like Termius on iPad) I definitely would though!
- wincy 3y ago
  Do you think it’ll allow Xcode for development? When you say you were wearing it while doing dev work were you pairing it with a MacBook? From what I understand the OS is more similar to iPadOS (no Xcode, ability to compile binaries) vs MacOS.
  - ladberg 3y ago
    I honestly don't know that will be supported on the final version, but what I was referring to was developing on a Mac through the Vision Pro and deploying to the Vision Pro. FWIW the iPad supports dumbed down app development through Swift Playgrounds and presumably the Vision Pro will at the very least support that if it supports all iPad apps, but that's pure speculation.

jakemoshenko 3y ago

I've had a question that I haven't seen anyone else ask that you might be able to shed some light on: is there an internal battery to facilitate switching power sources without an instant loss of continuity?

losvedir 3y ago

> For the past week I've been trying to explain to people how certain I am that doing work in headsets will become mainstream This gets at my main question about this: does it feel to you like it will be great for "doing work", which generally happens at discrete places, or something which will apply to life generally, which is the kind of (some would say dystopian) ideal of "augmented reality"? Or put another way, I felt a huge increase in immersion and interest going from the original Oculus's three degrees of freedom to the "room scale" six degrees of freedom in Quest. I know this is "spatial computing" and you can put monitors in fixed positions in the environment, but is "desk scale" where you can kind of look around and pivot your head, or "room scale" where you can get up and move around the room, or "life scale" where you can leave the room entirely to check on the screens you left in the kitchen before coming back to sit down in front of the ones in your office?

manuelflara 3y ago
> or "life scale" where you can leave the room entirely to check on the screens you left in the kitchen before coming back to sit down in front of the ones in your office? according to the videos they show, people move around a lot in a room with these things on, grab things (e.g. their phone, cup of coffee). and makes sense, if you see basically what you have in front of you, then there's no "boundaries" you should stay in not to bump into things.
ladberg 3y ago
I think it'll be great for "doing work", but I'm not entirely sure if it'll immediately outclass my in-office setup that my employer has already spent thousands on. However, I don't have a wfh setup in my small apartment because I didn't want to dedicate space for that purpose, so when I occasionally need to wfh I just use a laptop on my couch or dining table and I would love it to replace that. I think if an employer were speccing out a new office it would definitely be a viable option to have a small laptop + Vision Pro instead of desktop (or bigger laptop) + multiple external monitors. I also don't expect it to be super dystopian or replace real life in general, but it could definitely replace the parts where you're already looking at a screen regardless. It is technically capable of being "life scale" in the way that you describe: it tries to keep a consistent coordinate system across multiple reboots and from room to room and real life objects can occlude virtual objects, but to be honest I have no clue what the average use case will be or how the OS will enforce it.

ren_engineer 3y ago

any opinion on why Apple isn't dogfooding this by allowing their software and non-hardware teams to work remotely? Seems like that would be one way to prove it is legit

prawn 3y ago
They only just announced it and had many details well hidden prior to launch. I think over the next few months, they’ll definitely have Apple staff using it around a controlled office and then later from home. At this point, I doubt they’d be letting them off campus.
dwaite 3y ago
Up until now, they most likely didn't allow it outside the building.

schaefer 3y ago

Hi Ladberg, When you worked with Vision Pro, did it have a device native terminal and/or a device native ssh client? What I mean by that is a terminal running under VisionOS, as opposed to getting terminal access by first connecting to a remote computer.

joeman1000 3y ago
Maybe for Apple development, but given that it’s positioned as an iOS-type device, the public will never get a native terminal on this thing. It would be unprecedented.
- drcode 3y ago
  I very much hope they allow sandboxed terminal access (like WSL on windows) but I expect they won't.
  - joeman1000 3y ago
    Yea no way. Unless you jailbreak. I would love it, though. The iPhone, iPad and now this thing would be great if there we could just opt to jailbreak without risks. I don’t jailbreak my phone because it’s risky and I don’t mind having it stock. The iPad would be great if I could run anything properly on it. The Vision Pro would be phenomenal. I’m thinking of all the game ports that could happen if the OS wasn’t locked down. I see their rationale in doing it, to retain control over the quality of the user-experience. But for those users who want to experiment, it just hampers their experience instead.

8f2ab37a-ed6c 3y ago

Based on your experience with the device, do you feel like the first version will be good enough to replace a multi-monitor setup for software developers, and allow them instead to fully switch to using the Vision Pro instead? Or is that monitor-less future for developers still a few iterations away?

ladberg 3y ago
Depends what you mean by "fully switch". I think it's good enough to replace a few monitors but at the same time there are use cases for monitors that it can't replace, like showing something on your screen to someone next to you. I'm sure some developers will switch over on the first generation, some will wait until it gets lighter/cheaper/more immersive (disclosure: I have no clue what's coming in the future), and some might never switch if they just plain don't like having something on their head.
- 8f2ab37a-ed6c 3y ago
  Great insight, thank you!
- zaptrem 3y ago
  What was the upper limit on number of virtual monitors you could stream from a Mac when you were working on it? The demo videos only ever show one which doesn't seem all that useful. Optimally you'd be able to just drag the actual MacOS windows out into space and the cursor would just hop to them when you look at them.

tikimcfee 3y ago

I feel like I’ve been spamming this everywhere and any time I get the chance, but I really want people to join in and help define this experience with me for developers. https://github.com/tikimcfee/LookAtThat https://github.com/tikimcfee/LookAtThat AR VR for iOS and macOS. Millions of glyphs. Instant control. There’s magic here. If this excites you, work with me and help make this a reality! I don’t have all of it in me. I wish I did. I don’t. I don’t have all the time and energy. But there are people here that if they spent just a little time to work on this, we would be in the future of a 3D code space in days, and not weeks or months. I owe a new readme for the project. If any of this makes you feel any feelies, get in contact with me star it, make noise, whatever! Lotta love to yall. Thanks for letting me vomit words.

theaussiestew 3y ago
I've been wanting to make this kind of thing for a while now. Basically canvas and 3D view for code. This looks super cool, but I was more thinking for a general platform like VSCode, rather than something limited to the MacOS eco-system. What's the best way to get in touch with you?
- tikimcfee 3y ago
  Totally feel ya there. If I had a different sorta history, I would have like to have started with something like d3 or even Unity… alas, poor me, heh. I’d love to chat! My email’s fairly public, so feel free to ping me at thelugos @pm.me (no space).

no_wizard 3y ago

would you recommend buying 2 and replacing your TVs with it? I'm legit thinking about this, because the home theater setup I'm looking at will cost nearly the same, but two of these + a great audio system would be amazing. The real question is, can you make two devices sync to each other simultaneously. Probably not I'm imagining

PettingRabbits 3y ago
I hope it kickstarts more development in surround sound headphones. I live in a small condo and have a big 4K projector set up. But I can't reasonably do surround sound or turn up the volume. Apple Vision. + surround headphones would be awesome, or projector + many pairs of surround headphones for group experiences.
ladberg 3y ago
The problem is that it puts a hard cap on how many people can enjoy your home theater, so that might be an issue. If you already have a space carved out for a home theater and were thinking of entertaining >2 people then I'm not entirely sure what the value add of the headset would be. In my opinion the benefit comes in getting a home-theater-like experience that you can bring anywhere and not have to dedicate space in your home for. Third party developers will definitely be capable of adding a sync feature like you're describing but I have no clue if they will.
zmmmmm 3y ago
Shared space interaction was notably missing from the keynote. I'm very curious what the vision for the platform for it will be. Meta has put a lot of focus on it so there are a bunch of Quest apps and games where people inhabit the same phyiscal space and all the virtual objects are shared. I feel like it's essential for a platform like this to ultimately succeed, and curious that Apple appears behind Meta on this front.
- dwaite 3y ago
  Whether it has capabilities here or not, it seems like it would be challenging at a $3500 price point to say "and here's features you get if you buy one for each member of your family". Within an app, the challenge would be identifying they occupy the same space and mapping into the same coordinate system. Easier for VR mode than AR mode, where your mapping can be pretty arbitrary to the available bounds.

amelius 3y ago

Just wait until you get messages of "in-app purchases" and advertisements and they keep following you around. Then the real world will feel like paradise.

alphabettsy 3y ago
iOS doesn’t operate this way. Why would it be different here?
- amelius 3y ago
  Because they appear as giant billboards instead of on a screen of a few square inches.

alpinemeadow 3y ago

would you buy it when it becomes available?

ladberg 3y ago
I'm confident I'll buy a version of the headset at some point, but I don't know yet if I'll buy it right at release. I'm not saying that because I have any additional knowledge of future products (I don't), just that, like the rest of you, I want to see the ecosystem get fleshed out and not have to pay the early adopter tax. I think it will be great for work but who knows when a great remote code editor and terminal will show up on the App Store, right? It's also not novel to me because I've spent a while using it already, so I'm not exactly in a rush to test it out just to see all the features.
- alpinemeadow 3y ago
  I can agree with many of your points. For me, probably many, the price needs to be in line to a laptop replacement to be considered an option.

steveBK123 3y ago

I see the productivity use case more useful than the entertainment ones, and without the social stigma of hanging around on your sofa weirding out spouse/kids. However most of the previews I read do point to some amount of weight/comfort ergonomics that I think play against the productivity use case. Basically my work compute needs to be ergonomic enough to use for 8-12 hours/day. I have a hard time believing we can live in this headset for anything north of 2-3 hours at best.

sroussey 3y ago
Being able to watch movies in bed and let your spouse sleep without a lot of light is definitely a use case.
- Reimersholme 3y ago
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- jml78 3y ago
  There are now definitive studies that sleeping with a blackout mask greatly improves sleep quality. I just got my spouse onboard with wearing one and she says it is night and day difference for her. I have to wear a cpap so I haven’t found an eyemask that works with my cpap headgear.
- MaxikCZ 3y ago
  I dont know, but I dont think this wull really allow to watch movies in bed. I have trouble even using small in-ear headphones in any other position than laying on my back, because just the pillow pressure acting on the headphone piece is so anoying. This headset has a strap around the head that will add unfamiliar pressure from basically every direction you would rest your head on.

mmlkrx 3y ago

Thank you for answering all these little questions, hope I'm not too late :) 1. Could I take a disconnected cable keyboard and "anchor" the virtual keyboard to overlay the real one to get the haptical feedback when typing on the virtual keyboard? 2. I'm very excited about "hanging out in VR" but initial impressions of Persona avatars seem to be mixed. Do you think people will eventually get used to Personas after using them for longer or are we not quite there yet? 3. What is the focal distance for the eyes? 4. What are you most excited for using the Vision Pro again once it comes out :)? I definitely can't wait to upgrade from my original HTC Vive!

ladberg 3y ago
1. I don't really know of any feature like this but can't say for certain. I'd highly recommend investing in a bluetooth keyboard for work in the headset (or keep your cable keyboard plugged into your computer and mirror the screen into the headset). 2. Honestly no clue how the public will react to Apple's avatars, but keep in mind that third party apps are free to create experiences like that and I'm sure you'll see a dozen VRChat clones taking off. 3. Not sure! I never ran into any issues but I also don't need glasses. 4. I personally am a VR gaming enthusiast and despite gaming not being the core use case of the Vision Pro, I'm very excited to see what people do with it. If you've played Half Life Alyx you know how fun gravity gloves are, so imagine having games that have graphics and physics that can seamlessly blend with real life. Use your hands to toss around virtual objects that bounce off walls in the real environment! The cool thing is that this is all super easy to develop for now: all the scene understanding, rendering, hand tracking, physics, etc. is all handled by the device so you can probably whip up a gravity gloves prototype in a few lines of code.
- TheRealNGenius 3y ago
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- mmlkrx 3y ago
  Awesome, thanks for answering! And yes, question one was also partly motivated by gaming :) I understand it doesn't ship with controllers, but I was wondering if the cameras/depth sensors/software are good enough to recognize and track for example a ping pong paddle. Apart from that, I really hope Apple will work with more game engines in the future. I rented an HTC Vive Pro 2 last year just to play through Half Life Alyx and everything about this experience was so, so good (especially Jeff). Would be incredible if it ran on the Vision Pro eventually but I guess Source 2 is probably not on the engine list :) One last question I actually had if you don't mind. How do you think gestures will evolve once the headset releases? I understand there are a few basic gestures defined already, like clicking, dragging, zooming, but what about cmd + Z or deleting something. I'm sure eventually people will expect the same gestures for those actions across apps but I didn't see any mention on them so far. Any thoughts on how those might emerge?

archagon 3y ago

I fear Apple’s effort will be limited to an iPad-like content consumption experience without the platform opening up to a Mac-like degree. And that no other company has the chops to “cross the Rubicon” in such a comprehensive way, dooming AR/VR to a niche of limited usefulness.

donmcronald 3y ago
This is the main issue for me. At a minimum, the screens and virtual computers need to be completely open. I can’t live 100% in the Apple world for productivity.
boppo1 3y ago
Yep. Browser-excel isn't good enough, I need the full version.

machdiamonds 3y ago

Hi, curious about the foveated rendering on this headset. Theoretically, it should offer a 10x+ performance boost, but headsets like Quest Pro and PSVR haven’t achieved much with it. How does this compare?

NotMichaelBay 3y ago

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