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Mercedes accepts legal liability for collisions if the system is used under these stringent conditions. Tesla doesn't do this. It also doesn't mean it doesn't

Mercedes accepts legal liability for collisions if the system is used under these stringent conditions. Tesla doesn't do this. It also doesn't mean it doesn't have the technical capability to drive through the streets of LA for 60 minutes. https://www.thatcham.org/mercedes-to-accept-liability-for-accidents-when-automated-driving-system-engaged/ https://www.thatcham.org/mercedes-to-accept-liability-for-ac...

BoorishBears 3y ago
Working in the AV space, it's really frustrating how confidently people who have no idea about what's hard and what isn't go off about Tesla right now. Mercedes has soundly beaten the last decade of Tesla efforts by reaching L3. I've personally watched FSD go off the rails and into a crash situation within 60 seconds of being turned on three times this month (I have a friend who loves to try it in San Francisco) Had it crashed it'd be on my friend, not Tesla. The fact Mercedes is taking responsibility puts it in an entirely different level of effectiveness. - People also don't seem to understand Mercedes has a separate L2 system that works above 45 mph that already scores better than AP by consumer reports
- DaiPlusPlus 3y ago
  > People also don't seem to understand Mercedes has a separate L2 system that works above 45 mph that already scores better than AP by consumer reports Isn't Mercedes' L2 system non-upgradable, though? i.e. people with Merc's L2 system today won't be able to upgrade to L3+ later on, they'll need to buy a whole new car - right? I bring this up only because I bought my X in 2018 with FSD prepaid - it's 5 years old now, and thanks to the gratis retrofitted computer upgrades it has the same level of FSD functionality as a factory-new Model Y purchased today - and I value that level of commitment to their carbuyers - whereas all the other carmakers I've ever dealt-with are the type that gladly charg $lots just for annual updates to the navigation maps SD card. (I don't want to be seen defending Tesla, let alone Elon Musk here, but Tesla has avoided plenty of the worst practices of traditional automakers (okayokay, excepting the heated-seats thing).
  - threeseed 3y ago
    Drive Pilot uses their MB.OS which is updatable so assume it also will be. Unless you have some source that suggests otherwise. And it uses LiDAR which in my opinion is mandatory for FSD.
  - BoorishBears 3y ago
    According to Elon HW V2/2.5 was going to be FSD solved in 2016. Now HW V4 will be FSD solved. There've been multiple paid upgrades along that path that depending on exactly how Elon convinced a given buyer to pay for FSD previously. The fact that you're going to claim that Tesla, the company that famously discounts vehicles wholesale before unannounced upgrades, silently downgraded their CPO program to a used car program, removed ultrasonic sensors and didn't tell buyers if they'd be missing basic features like Summon temporarily (read: 4+ months) until their vehicles were delivered... is showing a commitment to their car buyers... really says something.
    - kiratp 3y ago
      People who paid for the FSD package have been given the upgrades for free.
    - valval 3y ago
      It’s painful to see your matter-of-fact tone regarding things you have absolutely no clue about. You seem to know next to nothing about the auto space in general. Every carmaker raises and lowers their prices according to supply and demand. And no, there is no driver assistance system among any of the big manufacturers that come anywhere near Tesla’s system. And yes, exploring a problem space that hasn’t been explored before will face setbacks and require many iterations. Those iterations are free for the customers, however. Elon makes a lot of “promises”, you’re right in that. Although, he really doesn’t. He makes educated guesses that you take for promises. Once Tesla’s own website and news outlets deliver those “promises”, should you start taking them for actual ones.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
- bboygravity 3y ago
  This FUD is insane. You make it sounds like Tesla's with FSD on are crashing all the time. This makes no sense at all, because... they aren't?
  - l33t233372 3y ago
    FUD is an interesting term. Why do you use it here? Are you implying GP’s message is part of a broader campaign?
    - natch 3y ago
      Not op but there are several groups that are independent but essentially aligned on anti-Tesla motivation that have reasons to support campaigns against Tesla: TSLAQ, union supporters, oil producers, legacy auto, to name just a few. There are more. And FUD is well known and easy enough that even individuals can practice it, so I wouldn’t read too much into that.
      - l33t233372 3y ago
        I’m not convinced FUD is a real thing.
        natch 3y ago
        Right, I fear there is doubt and uncertainty, I see what you did there.
      - amelius 3y ago
        I can understand anti-Tesla motivation considering that Tesla doesn't act in a responsible way: they call their system "Autopilot" when it really isn't that; and they don't take responsibility in case of a crash. Both of these things should imho be illegal but somehow they get away with it.
        natch 3y ago
        There you go. With people believing this stuff of course they face some opposition.
- jgalt212 3y ago
  > go off about Tesla right now. People don't go off on Tesla because of its lack of technical prowess. People go off on Tesla because their marketing department is a bunch of pathological liars.
  - idlewords 3y ago
    It will be poetic justice if the marketing department is the first thing at Tesla to be completely automated.
  - belter 3y ago
    That is so unkind to the Tesla marketing department...:-) Where do they get their orders from? https://youtu.be/zhr6fHmCJ6k https://youtu.be/zhr6fHmCJ6k https://youtu.be/5cFTlx68itk https://youtu.be/5cFTlx68itk
- roenxi 3y ago
  Working in the space appears to be misleading you. It is quite obvious that Teslas can already drive themselves - the thread ancestor literally linked a video. Your comment has complaints about an academic engineering definition/legal standard that, realistically, is probably going to be paid for in lives by delaying the roll-out and development of self driving vehicles. We know from the march of AI in other fields that the potential for cars to drive to superhuman safety standards is just on the cusp of technologically achievable and will likely be achieved with some sort of evolutionary approach of trying a bunch of things and seeing what works. This is exactly the wrong time to be making automakers liable for experimenting. If anything, we should be lowering the standards automakers are held to to push through the last technical barriers and break into the oasis where less people kill themselves on the road. I've already lost too many tired friends to car accidents; we should be sparing no effort to get humans away from the driver's wheel. In a fair world, people advocating raising standards should be held liable for the lives they are throwing away on net. Nobody is being forced to drive a car with autopilot if they aren't comfortable. The risks are obvious and understood. Personal liability is fine.
  - Kbelicius 3y ago
    > Nobody is being forced to drive a car with autopilot if they aren't comfortable. The risks are obvious and understood. Personal liability is fine. What about all the others participants on the road? Should pedestrian and cyclist also take personal responsibility for getting hit by a self driving car?
    - roenxi 3y ago
      > Should pedestrian and cyclist also take personal responsibility for getting hit by a self driving car? No. Personal liability is fine.
      - Kbelicius 3y ago
        Whose? Drivers, cyclists or the person that made the self driving that ran in to the cyclist?

BoorishBears 3y ago

Working in the AV space, it's really frustrating how confidently people who have no idea about what's hard and what isn't go off about Tesla right now. Mercedes has soundly beaten the last decade of Tesla efforts by reaching L3. I've personally watched FSD go off the rails and into a crash situation within 60 seconds of being turned on three times this month (I have a friend who loves to try it in San Francisco) Had it crashed it'd be on my friend, not Tesla. The fact Mercedes is taking responsibility puts it in an entirely different level of effectiveness. - People also don't seem to understand Mercedes has a separate L2 system that works above 45 mph that already scores better than AP by consumer reports

DaiPlusPlus 3y ago
> People also don't seem to understand Mercedes has a separate L2 system that works above 45 mph that already scores better than AP by consumer reports Isn't Mercedes' L2 system non-upgradable, though? i.e. people with Merc's L2 system today won't be able to upgrade to L3+ later on, they'll need to buy a whole new car - right? I bring this up only because I bought my X in 2018 with FSD prepaid - it's 5 years old now, and thanks to the gratis retrofitted computer upgrades it has the same level of FSD functionality as a factory-new Model Y purchased today - and I value that level of commitment to their carbuyers - whereas all the other carmakers I've ever dealt-with are the type that gladly charg $lots just for annual updates to the navigation maps SD card. (I don't want to be seen defending Tesla, let alone Elon Musk here, but Tesla has avoided plenty of the worst practices of traditional automakers (okayokay, excepting the heated-seats thing).
- threeseed 3y ago
  Drive Pilot uses their MB.OS which is updatable so assume it also will be. Unless you have some source that suggests otherwise. And it uses LiDAR which in my opinion is mandatory for FSD.
- BoorishBears 3y ago
  According to Elon HW V2/2.5 was going to be FSD solved in 2016. Now HW V4 will be FSD solved. There've been multiple paid upgrades along that path that depending on exactly how Elon convinced a given buyer to pay for FSD previously. The fact that you're going to claim that Tesla, the company that famously discounts vehicles wholesale before unannounced upgrades, silently downgraded their CPO program to a used car program, removed ultrasonic sensors and didn't tell buyers if they'd be missing basic features like Summon temporarily (read: 4+ months) until their vehicles were delivered... is showing a commitment to their car buyers... really says something.
  - kiratp 3y ago
    People who paid for the FSD package have been given the upgrades for free.
  - valval 3y ago
    It’s painful to see your matter-of-fact tone regarding things you have absolutely no clue about. You seem to know next to nothing about the auto space in general. Every carmaker raises and lowers their prices according to supply and demand. And no, there is no driver assistance system among any of the big manufacturers that come anywhere near Tesla’s system. And yes, exploring a problem space that hasn’t been explored before will face setbacks and require many iterations. Those iterations are free for the customers, however. Elon makes a lot of “promises”, you’re right in that. Although, he really doesn’t. He makes educated guesses that you take for promises. Once Tesla’s own website and news outlets deliver those “promises”, should you start taking them for actual ones.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
bboygravity 3y ago
This FUD is insane. You make it sounds like Tesla's with FSD on are crashing all the time. This makes no sense at all, because... they aren't?
- l33t233372 3y ago
  FUD is an interesting term. Why do you use it here? Are you implying GP’s message is part of a broader campaign?
  - natch 3y ago
    Not op but there are several groups that are independent but essentially aligned on anti-Tesla motivation that have reasons to support campaigns against Tesla: TSLAQ, union supporters, oil producers, legacy auto, to name just a few. There are more. And FUD is well known and easy enough that even individuals can practice it, so I wouldn’t read too much into that.
    - l33t233372 3y ago
      I’m not convinced FUD is a real thing.
      - natch 3y ago
        Right, I fear there is doubt and uncertainty, I see what you did there.
    - amelius 3y ago
      I can understand anti-Tesla motivation considering that Tesla doesn't act in a responsible way: they call their system "Autopilot" when it really isn't that; and they don't take responsibility in case of a crash. Both of these things should imho be illegal but somehow they get away with it.
      - natch 3y ago
        There you go. With people believing this stuff of course they face some opposition.
jgalt212 3y ago
> go off about Tesla right now. People don't go off on Tesla because of its lack of technical prowess. People go off on Tesla because their marketing department is a bunch of pathological liars.
- idlewords 3y ago
  It will be poetic justice if the marketing department is the first thing at Tesla to be completely automated.
- belter 3y ago
  That is so unkind to the Tesla marketing department...:-) Where do they get their orders from? https://youtu.be/zhr6fHmCJ6k https://youtu.be/zhr6fHmCJ6k https://youtu.be/5cFTlx68itk https://youtu.be/5cFTlx68itk
roenxi 3y ago
Working in the space appears to be misleading you. It is quite obvious that Teslas can already drive themselves - the thread ancestor literally linked a video. Your comment has complaints about an academic engineering definition/legal standard that, realistically, is probably going to be paid for in lives by delaying the roll-out and development of self driving vehicles. We know from the march of AI in other fields that the potential for cars to drive to superhuman safety standards is just on the cusp of technologically achievable and will likely be achieved with some sort of evolutionary approach of trying a bunch of things and seeing what works. This is exactly the wrong time to be making automakers liable for experimenting. If anything, we should be lowering the standards automakers are held to to push through the last technical barriers and break into the oasis where less people kill themselves on the road. I've already lost too many tired friends to car accidents; we should be sparing no effort to get humans away from the driver's wheel. In a fair world, people advocating raising standards should be held liable for the lives they are throwing away on net. Nobody is being forced to drive a car with autopilot if they aren't comfortable. The risks are obvious and understood. Personal liability is fine.
- Kbelicius 3y ago
  > Nobody is being forced to drive a car with autopilot if they aren't comfortable. The risks are obvious and understood. Personal liability is fine. What about all the others participants on the road? Should pedestrian and cyclist also take personal responsibility for getting hit by a self driving car?
  - roenxi 3y ago
    > Should pedestrian and cyclist also take personal responsibility for getting hit by a self driving car? No. Personal liability is fine.
    - Kbelicius 3y ago
      Whose? Drivers, cyclists or the person that made the self driving that ran in to the cyclist?