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So rich people (who really do not care about few dollars) will be able to drive to downtown just for fun. while poor people who truly need to come to downtown b

by tlogan 3y ago

So rich people (who really do not care about few dollars) will be able to drive to downtown just for fun. while poor people who truly need to come to downtown by car will struggle. This is an unfortunate reality of life: wealth equates to more available time.

krasin 3y ago
> So rich people (who really do not care about few dollars) will be able to drive to downtown just for run while poor ones which need it will suffer. The first part is true, the second part not necessarily so, if combined with improved subway. Theoretically, it should be even possible to setup the system, where these taxes on cars to downtown directly fund subway expansion and modernization.
aqme28 3y ago
Public transit has always been the cheaper option. This just makes the difference a little larger.
- tharne 3y ago
  > Public transit has always been the cheaper option. Only if don't value your time.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - throw__away7391 3y ago
    [flagged]
mgbmtl 3y ago
There are also rich and poor people using the subway. Improving it will improve the situation for everyone. I'm (sincerely) curious though, who are the poor people affected? Parking downtown is crazy expensive, and there are already expensive tolls around Manhattan. There are easy solutions though: charge by the weight/size of the car (the weight should already be on the car registration).
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  > There are also rich and poor people using the subway. Improving it will improve the situation for everyone. Exactly. Just like more parking would improve it for everyone.
  - mgbmtl 3y ago
    Parking doesn't scale well. It would just improve the situation for a few people, temporarily.
okennedy 3y ago
NYC, and Manhattan specifically, is one of the rare places in the country where having a car is almost virtually unnecessary. In downtown, cars are already playthings of the rich: Just parking the car during peak hours can run you hundreds dollars of per month. The core of NYC has walkable infrastructure and an amazing public transportation infrastructure (at least compared to much of the rest of the country). For those commuting in from suburbs, park-and-rides are already a far more cost-efficient option.
- pclmulqdq 3y ago
  It is now over a thousand per month for a dedicated space in Manhattan, and that seems to be about the right price.
  - _rs 3y ago
    There are plenty of garages in Manhattan with monthly rates around 500. It really depends on neighborhood
  - jcranmer 3y ago
    A parking space takes up about 200 ft² (not counting things like the width of the travel lane between parking spaces), and office rent in Manhattan runs about $7-8/ft² each month. Chances are, even at well over $1000/month, the parking infrastructure is still effectively below the cost of the space it takes up.
    - NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
      On the other hand, a parking space is a bare concrete slab, or even a lift holding several cars over a bare concrete slab; and an office building is ... not.
      - tmnvix 3y ago
        As I understand it, parking buildings are actually more expensive to construct due to the engineering requirements
lotsofpulp 3y ago
This “poor people will be affected more” is a tired refrain. That is always obviously true, given the consequences of being poor. Not every solution can or has to solve the wealth/income gap. Solve congestion with one solution, solve wealth redistribution with another.
- rileymat2 3y ago
  Rationing by payment is only one strategy though. Choosing that strategy brings in wealth disparities. So it is fair to bring it up when that is the chosen strategy.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    Everything brings in wealth disparities, except for redistributing wealth. That’s an inherent part of one person having more wealth than another, it allows them to buy more. It is a waste of time to bring it up every single time. We know being poor sucks, but that is its own issue with its own solution separate from solving too many vehicles in certain parts of Manhattan at certain times.
    - nonethewiser 3y ago
      How does increasing free parking bring in a wealth disparity? Or increasing capacity or lowering the price of public transit?
      - lotsofpulp 3y ago
        > How does increasing free parking bring in a wealth disparity? Increases distances between destinations, which means more energy and time to travel between them, which means higher cost. > Or increasing capacity or lowering the price of public transit? This would qualify as redistributing wealth.
  - grumpy_coder 3y ago
    The actual dollar amount also matters. London's charge has tripled since it was introduced. The unforeseen consequence of this type of charge is it becomes a lever to reduce traffic by forcing poorer people off the roads everyone pays for.
sigstoat 3y ago
if you’re rich enough you just pay somebody else to run the errand or drive you around in an even larger vehicle. stop freaking out about rich people being able to get something nice. they can already afford nice things. look at the overall costs/benefit analysis of the policy.
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  You bring up a good point. It makes door dash even more expensive and even more a luxury for well off people. Also, the argument was never that rich people cant afford nice things. So while concluding they can is easy and correct, its not accomplishing anything.
dragontamer 3y ago
Every time I go to NYC, I say F### the traffic, I'm taking the subway. Traffic is horrible, subway is more than usable. Just walk.
paulcole 3y ago
Yes, rich people do things for fun. Poor people struggle. It’s not a particularly deep or useful insight. What do you think should happen here instead since you’re so disappointed with the current plan? No charge for drivers going downtown? A dynamic charge based on social status/wealth?
- BoorishBears 3y ago
  > A dynamic charge based on social status/wealth? That's one I like actually, maybe something like the blue book value of the car? I recently moved out of NYC but I remember looking forward to the congestion charge because I loved taking my greyhound to the union square dog run, which was driving distance for me. 20$ wasn't enough to affect my plans to do that, and less traffic would actually make my life way easier when I took him there. There were plenty of people like that: totally unaffected by whatever a reasonable toll is, and actually more likely to drive if they enact it. - At the end of the day I don't buy that in a city like NYC we'll see the type of effect congestion pricing has had in other less connected cities. Here owning a car is already expensive, parking already cost more than people pay in rent in some places, etc. It's like stacking a regressive tax on a regressive tax, it doesn't really have the same effect.
  - wcarron 3y ago
    > That's one I like actually, maybe something like the blue book value of the car? Suppose two people make the same amount of money. One chooses to buy a cheaper car and pays higher rent for a nicer apt. The other, the opposite. Under your pricing scheme, you're unjustifiably charging two persons of equal means different rates. You can adjust this many ways. One person gets a cheaper car but spends more on luxury vacations or invests more aggressively or spends large sums eating at nice restaurants often or buys expensive clothes or or or etc. Edit: Lastly, why should we be charging expensive cars more? A BMW M4 is, by all measures, much less irritating to have to share the road with than a large SUV or Ford F-250 (god forbid it's also lifted). Tolls should scale with vehicle size and weight and when vehicles have poor fuel efficiency, not the sticker price.
    - 3y ago
bradleyjg 3y ago
Where are these poor people who truly need to come downtown by car parking?
- MengerSponge 3y ago
  I imagine there are literally thousands of them (/s)
jupp0r 3y ago
Not sure how familiar you are with the realities of driving a car in Lower Manhattan, but as somebody who has visited the place a few times, I can assure you that poor people cannot afford parking there on a regular basis already.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  Midtown when I was there had free street parking (maybe it still does?), and it made more sense financially for my girlfriend at the time to drive rather than grab a train from Harlem to Hawthorne (north of white plains, the office wasn’t near the train station so that last link wasn’t really covered). I was honestly surprised driving was…so convenient in that part of NYC at least, but midtown is definitely not Manhattan, and also a reverse commute.
  - rafram 3y ago
    > I was honestly surprised driving was…so convenient in that part of NYC at least, but midtown is definitely not Manhattan, and also a reverse commute. Midtown Manhattan isn’t Manhattan?
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      I’m not sure why I knew it as midtown then, but the area I’m talking about is the north side of Central Park where Columbia university is. Harlem is the closest train stop to get to Westchester county. According to wiki it’s called the upper west side of Manhattan. It could have been by girlfriend’s apartment was actually in midtown and I’m misremembering it’s proximity from the university? But even the more northern point is considered Manhattan, so I was mistaken on that count (even if it was on the border with Harlem).
      - rafram 3y ago
        Harlem is also a neighborhood of Manhattan. Manhattan is the entirety of Manhattan Island plus Marble Hill (a tiny neighborhood on the mainland to the north).
m3kw9 3y ago
If you are so poor with a car but can afford gas that a few dollar toll will wreck you, you really should just take public transportation. There will be rare legit cases but when was the last time they made everyone happy with decisions?
kepler1 3y ago
What's your point? Everything with a price is unkind to poor people. So you can't do anything that affects poor people? What rule/principle are you suggesting then, to get anything done?
nonethewiser 3y ago
It is literally this. Decongesting the streets for rich people.
sacnoradhq 3y ago
This is the problem of toll roads and express lanes and creating a pseudo private system that monetizes the public commonwealth. Public-private partnerships are another cash grab.

by tlogan 3y ago

krasin 3y ago

> So rich people (who really do not care about few dollars) will be able to drive to downtown just for run while poor ones which need it will suffer. The first part is true, the second part not necessarily so, if combined with improved subway. Theoretically, it should be even possible to setup the system, where these taxes on cars to downtown directly fund subway expansion and modernization.

aqme28 3y ago

Public transit has always been the cheaper option. This just makes the difference a little larger.

tharne 3y ago
> Public transit has always been the cheaper option. Only if don't value your time.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- throw__away7391 3y ago
  [flagged]

mgbmtl 3y ago

There are also rich and poor people using the subway. Improving it will improve the situation for everyone. I'm (sincerely) curious though, who are the poor people affected? Parking downtown is crazy expensive, and there are already expensive tolls around Manhattan. There are easy solutions though: charge by the weight/size of the car (the weight should already be on the car registration).

nonethewiser 3y ago
> There are also rich and poor people using the subway. Improving it will improve the situation for everyone. Exactly. Just like more parking would improve it for everyone.
- mgbmtl 3y ago
  Parking doesn't scale well. It would just improve the situation for a few people, temporarily.

okennedy 3y ago

NYC, and Manhattan specifically, is one of the rare places in the country where having a car is almost virtually unnecessary. In downtown, cars are already playthings of the rich: Just parking the car during peak hours can run you hundreds dollars of per month. The core of NYC has walkable infrastructure and an amazing public transportation infrastructure (at least compared to much of the rest of the country). For those commuting in from suburbs, park-and-rides are already a far more cost-efficient option.

pclmulqdq 3y ago
It is now over a thousand per month for a dedicated space in Manhattan, and that seems to be about the right price.
- _rs 3y ago
  There are plenty of garages in Manhattan with monthly rates around 500. It really depends on neighborhood
- jcranmer 3y ago
  A parking space takes up about 200 ft² (not counting things like the width of the travel lane between parking spaces), and office rent in Manhattan runs about $7-8/ft² each month. Chances are, even at well over $1000/month, the parking infrastructure is still effectively below the cost of the space it takes up.
  - NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
    On the other hand, a parking space is a bare concrete slab, or even a lift holding several cars over a bare concrete slab; and an office building is ... not.
    - tmnvix 3y ago
      As I understand it, parking buildings are actually more expensive to construct due to the engineering requirements

lotsofpulp 3y ago

This “poor people will be affected more” is a tired refrain. That is always obviously true, given the consequences of being poor. Not every solution can or has to solve the wealth/income gap. Solve congestion with one solution, solve wealth redistribution with another.

rileymat2 3y ago
Rationing by payment is only one strategy though. Choosing that strategy brings in wealth disparities. So it is fair to bring it up when that is the chosen strategy.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  Everything brings in wealth disparities, except for redistributing wealth. That’s an inherent part of one person having more wealth than another, it allows them to buy more. It is a waste of time to bring it up every single time. We know being poor sucks, but that is its own issue with its own solution separate from solving too many vehicles in certain parts of Manhattan at certain times.
  - nonethewiser 3y ago
    How does increasing free parking bring in a wealth disparity? Or increasing capacity or lowering the price of public transit?
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      > How does increasing free parking bring in a wealth disparity? Increases distances between destinations, which means more energy and time to travel between them, which means higher cost. > Or increasing capacity or lowering the price of public transit? This would qualify as redistributing wealth.
- grumpy_coder 3y ago
  The actual dollar amount also matters. London's charge has tripled since it was introduced. The unforeseen consequence of this type of charge is it becomes a lever to reduce traffic by forcing poorer people off the roads everyone pays for.

sigstoat 3y ago

if you’re rich enough you just pay somebody else to run the errand or drive you around in an even larger vehicle. stop freaking out about rich people being able to get something nice. they can already afford nice things. look at the overall costs/benefit analysis of the policy.

nonethewiser 3y ago
You bring up a good point. It makes door dash even more expensive and even more a luxury for well off people. Also, the argument was never that rich people cant afford nice things. So while concluding they can is easy and correct, its not accomplishing anything.

dragontamer 3y ago

Every time I go to NYC, I say F### the traffic, I'm taking the subway. Traffic is horrible, subway is more than usable. Just walk.

paulcole 3y ago

Yes, rich people do things for fun. Poor people struggle. It’s not a particularly deep or useful insight. What do you think should happen here instead since you’re so disappointed with the current plan? No charge for drivers going downtown? A dynamic charge based on social status/wealth?

BoorishBears 3y ago
> A dynamic charge based on social status/wealth? That's one I like actually, maybe something like the blue book value of the car? I recently moved out of NYC but I remember looking forward to the congestion charge because I loved taking my greyhound to the union square dog run, which was driving distance for me. 20$ wasn't enough to affect my plans to do that, and less traffic would actually make my life way easier when I took him there. There were plenty of people like that: totally unaffected by whatever a reasonable toll is, and actually more likely to drive if they enact it. - At the end of the day I don't buy that in a city like NYC we'll see the type of effect congestion pricing has had in other less connected cities. Here owning a car is already expensive, parking already cost more than people pay in rent in some places, etc. It's like stacking a regressive tax on a regressive tax, it doesn't really have the same effect.
- wcarron 3y ago
  > That's one I like actually, maybe something like the blue book value of the car? Suppose two people make the same amount of money. One chooses to buy a cheaper car and pays higher rent for a nicer apt. The other, the opposite. Under your pricing scheme, you're unjustifiably charging two persons of equal means different rates. You can adjust this many ways. One person gets a cheaper car but spends more on luxury vacations or invests more aggressively or spends large sums eating at nice restaurants often or buys expensive clothes or or or etc. Edit: Lastly, why should we be charging expensive cars more? A BMW M4 is, by all measures, much less irritating to have to share the road with than a large SUV or Ford F-250 (god forbid it's also lifted). Tolls should scale with vehicle size and weight and when vehicles have poor fuel efficiency, not the sticker price.
  - 3y ago

bradleyjg 3y ago

Where are these poor people who truly need to come downtown by car parking?

MengerSponge 3y ago
I imagine there are literally thousands of them (/s)

jupp0r 3y ago

Not sure how familiar you are with the realities of driving a car in Lower Manhattan, but as somebody who has visited the place a few times, I can assure you that poor people cannot afford parking there on a regular basis already.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago
Midtown when I was there had free street parking (maybe it still does?), and it made more sense financially for my girlfriend at the time to drive rather than grab a train from Harlem to Hawthorne (north of white plains, the office wasn’t near the train station so that last link wasn’t really covered). I was honestly surprised driving was…so convenient in that part of NYC at least, but midtown is definitely not Manhattan, and also a reverse commute.
- rafram 3y ago
  > I was honestly surprised driving was…so convenient in that part of NYC at least, but midtown is definitely not Manhattan, and also a reverse commute. Midtown Manhattan isn’t Manhattan?
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    I’m not sure why I knew it as midtown then, but the area I’m talking about is the north side of Central Park where Columbia university is. Harlem is the closest train stop to get to Westchester county. According to wiki it’s called the upper west side of Manhattan. It could have been by girlfriend’s apartment was actually in midtown and I’m misremembering it’s proximity from the university? But even the more northern point is considered Manhattan, so I was mistaken on that count (even if it was on the border with Harlem).
    - rafram 3y ago
      Harlem is also a neighborhood of Manhattan. Manhattan is the entirety of Manhattan Island plus Marble Hill (a tiny neighborhood on the mainland to the north).

m3kw9 3y ago

If you are so poor with a car but can afford gas that a few dollar toll will wreck you, you really should just take public transportation. There will be rare legit cases but when was the last time they made everyone happy with decisions?

kepler1 3y ago

What's your point? Everything with a price is unkind to poor people. So you can't do anything that affects poor people? What rule/principle are you suggesting then, to get anything done?

nonethewiser 3y ago

It is literally this. Decongesting the streets for rich people.

sacnoradhq 3y ago

This is the problem of toll roads and express lanes and creating a pseudo private system that monetizes the public commonwealth. Public-private partnerships are another cash grab.