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Stack Overflow has absolutely been destroyed by the moderators, so I couldn't care less about their "strike." I was (and still am) in the top ~%0.80 of users[1]

by dvt 3y ago

Stack Overflow has absolutely been destroyed by the moderators, so I couldn't care less about their "strike." I was (and still am) in the top ~%0.80 of users[1] but no longer contribute to the site (I stopped ~6 years ago) because of the moderators (a few in particular, but I won't name any names as some of them are here on HN). It has been an absolute shitshow of closing questions that shouldn't be closed, anally-retentive nitpicks which intimidate new users, the essential nuking of the community wiki (even prior to the official deprecation), bad answers being upvoted, good answers being deleted, and so on. The whole "community moderator" thing ended up being a popularity contest where typical nitwitted social climbers ended up injecting themselves in every single minor conflict on the site just to score visibility points come community voting time. On top of this, SO is also dying as it has no real viable way of cleaning up or deprecating old answers, and if new ones are asked, they are closed in favor of the old (outdated) ones. Slowly, reddit and language forums/mailing lists are becoming more and more valuable as Stack Overflow becomes more and more of a trash heap. It sucks because I really really loved Stack Overflow, but it just broke my heart one too many times. [1] https://stackoverflow.com/users/243613/david-titarenco https://stackoverflow.com/users/243613/david-titarenco

muppetman 3y ago
I'll say. I'm too scared to use it because every legit question I've seen is shut down by a mod with bonkers reasoning
- _nalply 3y ago
  No need. ChatGPT to the rescue. The answer quality is about the same but for different reasons. It's a hit or miss for both. But! With ChatGPT there is no social pressure exerted by humans. It's only you and the machine. It's liberating.
  - joebiden2 3y ago
    Don't know why this gets downvoted. It is simply true. In most cases, ChatGPT4 gets it right. You have to check anyway.
    - chrisallenlane 3y ago
      I agree. Also, I've had good luck asking GPT-4 to cite sources with its replies. It speeds up the process of fact-checking, and makes "hallucination" detection trivial. (Does the link 404?) Obviously it's not perfect, but it's no worse than asking human coworkers, which are also sometimes wrong. (I'd prefer not to interrupt my human coworkers with questions with searchable answers anyway.)
  - yrro 3y ago
    When I ask ChatGPT about stuff I actually know about, it always gives glib, misleading and completely wrong answers. I therefore don't trust it to answer questions about stuff that I don't know much about.
  - matsemann 3y ago
    ChatGPT would be useless for programming questions without SO, though. If SO dies, ChatGPT will be stuck with a 2023 knowledge of many languages and libraries.
- Solvency 3y ago
  I always hear this but have never experienced it. What kind of bonkers reasoning?
  - dvt 3y ago
    Literally the first one in my moderation queue[1]. Perfectly valid question with almost enough votes to get closed... [1] https://imgur.com/a/pnTLwcU https://imgur.com/a/pnTLwcU
    - minitech 3y ago
      … as a result of two votes to close from members of the community, which is not an example of “shut down by a mod” (GP) or how “Stack Overflow has been absolutely destroyed by the moderators” (GGP). Closing questions isn’t really a primary purpose of elected moderators to begin with, because it doesn’t need more privileges than the rep-based privilege system already grants. Meanwhile, the spam/abuse deletion, removal of illegitimate votes, conflict resolution, and so on that having mods is actually valuable for happen behind the scenes.
      - dvt 3y ago
        [flagged]
        minitech 3y ago
        Is pointing out that you’re not supporting your point with the correct evidence lashing out? For what it’s worth, I don’t feel the need to defend the site, and think it does a pretty terrible job of delivering useful questions and correct answers most of the time – just for pretty much the opposite reasons.
        fzeroracer 3y ago
        So rather than address the fact that you were wrong, you chose to change your argument entirely, attack the person's character and then lash out at them? You have access to the moderator queue and have been according to your history a person with relatively influential ability. Why don't you work towards changing the culture yourself?
Guest9081239812 3y ago
I remember I stumbled on a StackOverflow question about my API. I wrote a comment to tell the user a part of the API they were using was being depreciated, and they should change one line to avoid their code failing in the following weeks. I received a couple of ugly replies saying that my post wasn't relevant to the original question and it should be removed. I mean, I agree it wasn't the original question, but I wrote the API and I was trying to help that user and any future users coming to the page. Not the kind of place where I want to spend my time.
emodendroket 3y ago
That's funny, I would have said that a lack of moderation in favor of being more "welcoming" was a big part of what ails the site. Seems like it's been overrun with "write my regex for me" kind of questions.
- dvt 3y ago
  I've had enough reputation to see the moderation queue for years now. Imo, the site is anything but welcoming, as it shuts down newbie questions all the time with zero guidance.
  - emodendroket 3y ago
    In spite of this it seems like most of the activity is for what I'd consider very low-value questions.
    - bombolo 3y ago
      Already when I was a student working on my thesis, my issues were too advanced to ask questions on SO. I asked but I got no replies. At the time I would answer to others. Now I don't really bother. I often see a wrong answer being marked as correct, because it came before an actually good answer. For me SO now is at most a website where to copy boilerplate stuff like "how to create a unix server socket".
  - scatters 3y ago
    Welcoming and newbie-friendly are not the same thing.
  - Pinegulf 3y ago
    QFT. There should be mandatory 'why this question was closed' in cases there was and (misinformed) effort. Currently it's -10 closed, no comments.
    - emodendroket 3y ago
      There is?
gettodachoppa 3y ago
I'm not a heavy user like you, I've only asked about 15 SO questions in the past 3 years (ranging from C++, gcc, Linux, software architecture), none of them have been deleted, and there's always people answering. You don't have to, but can you give some examples of good answers being deleted or good questions being closed? I'm just surprised I always see some people on HN furious at SO, and wonder why their experience is so different from mine. Btw, regarding old questions, I always make sure I search SO before I post my question, and if any similar questions exist, I link them in my new question and say "I found this [url1] but it doesn't apply to my situation because of circumstances XYZ". This is simply good practice to show you respect the community's time.
- kqr 3y ago
  This is my experience as well. It's not that SO is inconsistent or anything, it's just that it's a very specific place on the internet that is appropriate for a narrow sliver of material. Sometimes your personal idea of quality material aligns with SO's, in which case great! Otherwise, frustration.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
  Examples are pointless. For those that must feel compelled to maintain the status quo, whether they are invested or just cretinish volunteers, they would inevitably have to argue against the examples. Even if he can put his finger on one so absurdly pathological that it can't be taken out of context, they'd do an "oops, so we got one wrong, it happens once in awhile". He's not the only one who has this impression that it happens constantly. And there are enough such people that they can't easily be dismissed as malcontents and troublemakers. I still ask questions once in awhile... if you're desperate, there's a chance that it slips past their asshole guards and gets noticed by someone willing to help. But it's certainly unusual at this point. Once a culture of moderation develops, moderators have to moderate just to feel like they're useful/important. They do this even if moderation isn't needed. Instead of just keeping a watch out for the uncommon problem question, they're inspecting many/most of them and looking for reasons to close/delete. It's too high of a bar, the purpose of the site is to help those who don't necessarily know enough to ask brilliant questions. Or maybe it isn't anymore. We've cultivated an entire society of busybodies out there measure lawns with rulers, so to speak. It would take decades to roll this back to something sane.
politician 3y ago
We need a competitor that accepts any question, uses GPT to create answers, offers the public the ability to vote and discuss these answers, and uses GPT to rate and prune the discussions. Eliminate the community moderators.
- emodendroket 3y ago
  Maybe we do but mostly as a cautionary tale for people who think LLMs are going to solve all their problems.
- fzeroracer 3y ago
  No, we don't. If you think you don't need moderators then you have never run a community site. But please go ahead and create it; it would be destroyed in a matter of weeks by trolls, racists etc that make your site look bad.
  - throwaway675309 3y ago
    That doesn't appear to be happening to chat GPT, the moderation endpoints seem to do a pretty good job even if they're unfortunately overzealous. Moderation combines summarization and sentiment analysis - two things that large language models excel at. https://platform.openai.com/docs/guides/moderation https://platform.openai.com/docs/guides/moderation You're naïve if you don't think that the job of moderation is going to be replaced with AI by large social communities.
linhns 3y ago
Agree. Before generative AI came along, I once had to scroll down all to way to the bottom for the only valid answer, which got deleted the next day...
bandrami 3y ago
The outdated answer problem is infuriating, particularly on Server Fault. We have answers about the Linux login process that predate systemd still out there and being used to delete new questions that have similar wording but need completely different answers now.
shrimp_emoji 3y ago
Plug for the upstart smol doge alternative: https://codidact.com/ https://codidact.com/

by dvt 3y ago

muppetman 3y ago

I'll say. I'm too scared to use it because every legit question I've seen is shut down by a mod with bonkers reasoning

_nalply 3y ago
No need. ChatGPT to the rescue. The answer quality is about the same but for different reasons. It's a hit or miss for both. But! With ChatGPT there is no social pressure exerted by humans. It's only you and the machine. It's liberating.
- joebiden2 3y ago
  Don't know why this gets downvoted. It is simply true. In most cases, ChatGPT4 gets it right. You have to check anyway.
  - chrisallenlane 3y ago
    I agree. Also, I've had good luck asking GPT-4 to cite sources with its replies. It speeds up the process of fact-checking, and makes "hallucination" detection trivial. (Does the link 404?) Obviously it's not perfect, but it's no worse than asking human coworkers, which are also sometimes wrong. (I'd prefer not to interrupt my human coworkers with questions with searchable answers anyway.)
- yrro 3y ago
  When I ask ChatGPT about stuff I actually know about, it always gives glib, misleading and completely wrong answers. I therefore don't trust it to answer questions about stuff that I don't know much about.
- matsemann 3y ago
  ChatGPT would be useless for programming questions without SO, though. If SO dies, ChatGPT will be stuck with a 2023 knowledge of many languages and libraries.
Solvency 3y ago
I always hear this but have never experienced it. What kind of bonkers reasoning?
- dvt 3y ago
  Literally the first one in my moderation queue[1]. Perfectly valid question with almost enough votes to get closed... [1] https://imgur.com/a/pnTLwcU https://imgur.com/a/pnTLwcU
  - minitech 3y ago
    … as a result of two votes to close from members of the community, which is not an example of “shut down by a mod” (GP) or how “Stack Overflow has been absolutely destroyed by the moderators” (GGP). Closing questions isn’t really a primary purpose of elected moderators to begin with, because it doesn’t need more privileges than the rep-based privilege system already grants. Meanwhile, the spam/abuse deletion, removal of illegitimate votes, conflict resolution, and so on that having mods is actually valuable for happen behind the scenes.
    - dvt 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - minitech 3y ago
        Is pointing out that you’re not supporting your point with the correct evidence lashing out? For what it’s worth, I don’t feel the need to defend the site, and think it does a pretty terrible job of delivering useful questions and correct answers most of the time – just for pretty much the opposite reasons.
      - fzeroracer 3y ago
        So rather than address the fact that you were wrong, you chose to change your argument entirely, attack the person's character and then lash out at them? You have access to the moderator queue and have been according to your history a person with relatively influential ability. Why don't you work towards changing the culture yourself?

Guest9081239812 3y ago

I remember I stumbled on a StackOverflow question about my API. I wrote a comment to tell the user a part of the API they were using was being depreciated, and they should change one line to avoid their code failing in the following weeks. I received a couple of ugly replies saying that my post wasn't relevant to the original question and it should be removed. I mean, I agree it wasn't the original question, but I wrote the API and I was trying to help that user and any future users coming to the page. Not the kind of place where I want to spend my time.

emodendroket 3y ago

That's funny, I would have said that a lack of moderation in favor of being more "welcoming" was a big part of what ails the site. Seems like it's been overrun with "write my regex for me" kind of questions.

dvt 3y ago
I've had enough reputation to see the moderation queue for years now. Imo, the site is anything but welcoming, as it shuts down newbie questions all the time with zero guidance.
- emodendroket 3y ago
  In spite of this it seems like most of the activity is for what I'd consider very low-value questions.
  - bombolo 3y ago
    Already when I was a student working on my thesis, my issues were too advanced to ask questions on SO. I asked but I got no replies. At the time I would answer to others. Now I don't really bother. I often see a wrong answer being marked as correct, because it came before an actually good answer. For me SO now is at most a website where to copy boilerplate stuff like "how to create a unix server socket".
- scatters 3y ago
  Welcoming and newbie-friendly are not the same thing.
- Pinegulf 3y ago
  QFT. There should be mandatory 'why this question was closed' in cases there was and (misinformed) effort. Currently it's -10 closed, no comments.
  - emodendroket 3y ago
    There is?

gettodachoppa 3y ago

I'm not a heavy user like you, I've only asked about 15 SO questions in the past 3 years (ranging from C++, gcc, Linux, software architecture), none of them have been deleted, and there's always people answering. You don't have to, but can you give some examples of good answers being deleted or good questions being closed? I'm just surprised I always see some people on HN furious at SO, and wonder why their experience is so different from mine. Btw, regarding old questions, I always make sure I search SO before I post my question, and if any similar questions exist, I link them in my new question and say "I found this [url1] but it doesn't apply to my situation because of circumstances XYZ". This is simply good practice to show you respect the community's time.

kqr 3y ago
This is my experience as well. It's not that SO is inconsistent or anything, it's just that it's a very specific place on the internet that is appropriate for a narrow sliver of material. Sometimes your personal idea of quality material aligns with SO's, in which case great! Otherwise, frustration.
NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
Examples are pointless. For those that must feel compelled to maintain the status quo, whether they are invested or just cretinish volunteers, they would inevitably have to argue against the examples. Even if he can put his finger on one so absurdly pathological that it can't be taken out of context, they'd do an "oops, so we got one wrong, it happens once in awhile". He's not the only one who has this impression that it happens constantly. And there are enough such people that they can't easily be dismissed as malcontents and troublemakers. I still ask questions once in awhile... if you're desperate, there's a chance that it slips past their asshole guards and gets noticed by someone willing to help. But it's certainly unusual at this point. Once a culture of moderation develops, moderators have to moderate just to feel like they're useful/important. They do this even if moderation isn't needed. Instead of just keeping a watch out for the uncommon problem question, they're inspecting many/most of them and looking for reasons to close/delete. It's too high of a bar, the purpose of the site is to help those who don't necessarily know enough to ask brilliant questions. Or maybe it isn't anymore. We've cultivated an entire society of busybodies out there measure lawns with rulers, so to speak. It would take decades to roll this back to something sane.

politician 3y ago

We need a competitor that accepts any question, uses GPT to create answers, offers the public the ability to vote and discuss these answers, and uses GPT to rate and prune the discussions. Eliminate the community moderators.

emodendroket 3y ago
Maybe we do but mostly as a cautionary tale for people who think LLMs are going to solve all their problems.
fzeroracer 3y ago
No, we don't. If you think you don't need moderators then you have never run a community site. But please go ahead and create it; it would be destroyed in a matter of weeks by trolls, racists etc that make your site look bad.
- throwaway675309 3y ago
  That doesn't appear to be happening to chat GPT, the moderation endpoints seem to do a pretty good job even if they're unfortunately overzealous. Moderation combines summarization and sentiment analysis - two things that large language models excel at. https://platform.openai.com/docs/guides/moderation https://platform.openai.com/docs/guides/moderation You're naïve if you don't think that the job of moderation is going to be replaced with AI by large social communities.

linhns 3y ago

Agree. Before generative AI came along, I once had to scroll down all to way to the bottom for the only valid answer, which got deleted the next day...

bandrami 3y ago

The outdated answer problem is infuriating, particularly on Server Fault. We have answers about the Linux login process that predate systemd still out there and being used to delete new questions that have similar wording but need completely different answers now.

shrimp_emoji 3y ago

Plug for the upstart smol doge alternative: https://codidact.com/ https://codidact.com/