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> Steve: "Apollo threatened us, said they’ll “make it easy” if Reddit gave them $10 million." Steve: "This guy behind the scenes is coercing us. He's threatenin

> Steve: "Apollo threatened us, said they’ll “make it easy” if Reddit gave them $10 million." Steve: "This guy behind the scenes is coercing us. He's threatening us." I can't believe that CEO of Reddit was telling internal people that Apollo tried to blackmail Reddit for a $10 million payout when that didn't happen.

goles 3y ago
Isn’t this the same guy who went and edited comments of users who were critical of him on Reddit? If someone shows you who they are believe them…
- proxiful-wash 3y ago
  Its the same guy who has let the entire platform be exploited for years at the expense of the people just wanting to connect about subjects online.
  - SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
    He’s also got a pretty sweet panic bunker, guns, food, and fuel supplies stashed away so when the division and panic he directly benefits from comes to a flash point he can ride it out safely. Steve Huffman is not a good person.
    - fknorangesite 3y ago
      But hey - he's "a pretty good leader. [Who] will probably be in charge, or at least not a slave, when push comes to shove." https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/01/30/doomsday-prep-for-the-super-rich https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/01/30/doomsday-prep-...
      - SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
        Amazing the tone and treatment difference because he is very liberal.
favorited 3y ago
I wonder how the employees will feel when they realize they were lied to, now that Christian has released an audio recording of the call.
- nkjnlknlk 3y ago
  Unless there is another job offering with similar compensation/benefits/etc. I'm not sure most employees will be able to do anything. "Leaders" and bold-faced lies are a duo as old as time. Macroeconomic conditions have many chained to their shitty bosses.
  - favorited 3y ago
    It's less about what they can do, and more about whether they'll trust whatever their CEO says next time.
    - feliscat 3y ago
      I don't think that most people trust what the CEO of their company says generally. I know I don't.
      - Aeolun 3y ago
        Hmm, I think I trust that my CEO isn’t lying to me. It’s just that he isn’t ultimately in control. If he says something and the board changes their minds the day after, he’s stuck.
- esskay 3y ago
  given Spez has a long history of lying they probably dont care, they're just as complicit as he is.
kstrauser 3y ago
The same CEO that explicitly confessed to editing users' comments? I can totally believe that.
soneil 3y ago
They also made the same claim in r/partnercommunities too, not just internally. https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/143sho8/admins_claim_apollo_threatened_them_whats_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/143sho8/admins_c...
- Defman 3y ago
  From the linked post: > We are open to postponing the API timeline to launch mod tooling, if mods agree to keep their subreddits open. We will discuss this in the Council and Partner call tomorrow Is that a threat, lol?
  - flutas 3y ago
    Even funnier to me, there's a not even thinly veiled threat right below it. >Blackout > We respect your right to protest – that’s part of democracy. >This situation is a bit different, with some mods leading the charge, some users pressuring mods. We’re trying to work through all of the unique situations. >Big picture: We are tolerant, but also a duty to keep Reddit online. >If people want to do this out of anger, we want to make sure they’re mad for accurate reasons, not over things that are untrue. That’s a loss for everyone. AKA: If you protest we will remove you from the mod team for that sub, and force the sub back to public.
    - Defman 3y ago
      Not the first time they are doing it, from what I know. There was some AMA controversy that led to a similar blackout and mod replacements.
      - johnnyanmac 3y ago
        Yeah, IIRC r/pics (a "default sub" back when that was still a concept) tried to do a blackout but came back on with similar accusations that the admins intervened.
    - ThatMedicIsASpy 3y ago
dtech 3y ago
To be honest it sounded like that to me too. It's very hard to differentiate between some honest clumsy phrasing and fishing for a payout, and the "clarification" doesn't help with that since it could also be an excuse to save face.
- Panoramix 3y ago
  Maybe with text snippets, but I don't see how somebody can listen to the conversation and come away with the idea that the dev was blackmailing anyone. https://christianselig.com/apollo-end/reddit-third-call-may-31-end.m4a https://christianselig.com/apollo-end/reddit-third-call-may-...
  - xNeil 3y ago
    I mean, even in the text snippets you can see that they seem to understand after a bit as to what Christian was talking about.
    - dtech 3y ago
      in both the text snippet and the audio it sounds to me like 2 people politely pretending that the offer wasn't made. Notice how the CEO basically immediately cuts off the call after the "clarification"
  - dbbk 3y ago
    I don't really buy the phrase "go quiet" in terms of API usage, it does sound like the developer was backtracking when called out on it
    - crypot 3y ago
      Definitely. It just makes no sense otherwise.
    - roflyear 3y ago
      Why misquote? He said "have Apollo quiet down" not "go quiet" he only said "go quiet" after the Reddit rep said that, in response. At least have your facts straight.
foota 3y ago
The author doesn't want to look at it this way, but this is a really weird thing to say. My interpretation was that they'd make an offer to sell the app to reddit, but the specific phrasing there really is not that. edit: I still think it was the wrong way to approach the situation. Consider this from reddit's perspective, it would only make sense for Reddit to pay for the traffic if they think they would lose it if it Apollo went away, but then it's not opportunity cost. It doesn't make the change any better of a look for reddit, and you can certainly question whether it's true that Apollo users would just use reddit, but if you accept that then I don't think you can claim the moral high ground if you offer to accept payment to "make it go away". The developer should have approached this from the perspective of the value that Apollo offers users and reddit instead of the cost to make the problem go away. I imagine the dev doesn't accept that Apollo users would just switch over, but they shouldn't have made their statement in those terms then, and I think that was a mistake.
TechBro8615 3y ago
Not only do the receipts contradict the Reddit CEO, but even if they didn't, the Apollo dev is well within his rights to offer an ultimatum that either Reddit acquires his app, or he shuts it down. If he has enough leverage in that situation for Reddit to feel as if that's "blackmail," then it actually means that Reddit is the one blackmailing him with the pricing changes. On one hand they claim they need to increase pricing to cover their costs, but on the other hand, if he offers (or threatens, according to Reddit) to remove all those costs, they consider it "blackmail" - meaning they're losing something if Apollo shuts down. So why can't they either buy the app or provide discounted API rates or some specialized payment schedule that derisks Apollo's costs instead of forcing a $50,000 bill on them in thirty days?
- Malp 3y ago
  DARVO
- thepasswordis 3y ago
  It was certainly telling when Apollo guy offered what seemed like a pretty lighthearted open in a potential negotiation, and reddit claimed this as "blackmail". When I negotiate the price on a piece of real estate, I often will include things that I want the owner to fix before closing (this is very common). The implication is "fix this or I won't buy the property". Is that "blackmail"? Apparently according to Spez it is.
- DangitBobby 3y ago
  It was the "go quiet" part, as in if they don't just buy him out he'll scream and cry to the public so they get really negative publicity on the API updates. To be clear, I don't think that's what he meant, but I think that's what the Reddit person thought was being said.
  - nicce 3y ago
    It was more about joking. Reddit claimed that Apollo made them lose money 20 million per year, so they had to add API prices. Joke was to offer the app for half the price if the pricing was legitimate, and keep the users.
Pyxl101 3y ago
I've listened to the voice call [1] linked in [2] and I interpret it the same way that Reddit staff apparently did -- as a veiled threat. Here's why: Christian is saying during the call that if Reddit wants Apollo to "quiet down", then to "make it easier" on everyone, Reddit should pay Christian $10 million dollars. I agree that there is ambiguity to the conversation, but if you listen to the exchange in context ... it sure sounds like Christian's offer is for Apollo to "go away quietly", as in he personally won't make noise about it. I'm not honestly sure that there's another sound way to interpret this. Listen to the audio yourselves and consider: what exactly is Christian offering in exchange for $10m? It's not the cessation of API requests, because Reddit already has it own their power to make that happen unilaterally. Therefore it must be something else. This 'clarification' that Christian provides afterwards, stating that he means API utilization will "go quiet", doesn't make sense, because Reddit doesn't need to pay for that. Again, he must be referring to something else. What is Reddit buying for $10m? The answer that "Christian will shut down the app and go quietly" is the only answer that makes sense in context. We should also keep in mind that actual, intended threats aren't necessarily going to be communicated explicitly. If you imagine a lobbyist threatening, say, a congressperson, would they say explicitly: "Vote for our initiative or else we'll stop funding you and fund your opposition"? No, almost certainly not. They'd say something that communicates the threat but requires reading between the lines -- as is the case here. Even without the need for threats, Christian has a reason to be unhappy with the API change, and voice his criticism of it publicly. It might be what he was planning to do anyway. So perhaps he's offering for Reddit to buy him out in exchange for ceasing his public criticism. It's not precisely a threat because regardless of the offer he might have been planning to criticize Reddit publicly. But it sure would feel like a threat to Reddit. "Buy me out or else I'm going to cause even more public fuss about this". The way that it's communicated, it lands as a threat from my perspective, because the payment will not be for anything besides his silence. [1] http://christianselig.com/apollo-end/reddit-third-call-may-31-end.m4a http://christianselig.com/apollo-end/reddit-third-call-may-3... [2] https://old.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/apollo_will_close_down_on_june_30th_reddits/ https://old.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/apollo_w...
- DHPersonal 3y ago
  Is it really a threat to offer to sell Apollo rather than face the public backlash that will happen by forcing it to shut down?
sillysaurusx 3y ago
I know I'm stretching really far with this, but is it at all possible that the mods made that up, or somehow misheard Steve? Maybe I'm missing it, but that claim seems unverified. Did Christian post a transcript somewhere of exactly what Steve said to the mods? It seems like this could all be a big misunderstanding... Basically, the whole post hinges on the claim that spez was telling internal employees that Christian was making threats. But neither the calls nor the transcript seems to give any details about what exactly spez said. I'm inclined to take Christian's word, but we should all be aware that we are in fact taking him at his word, rather than the claim being proven. It seems really hard to believe that spez would apologize for misunderstanding him and then immediately tell employees that he was threatening Reddit. This feels like a misunderstanding rather than malicious intent. > Then yesterday, moderators told me they were on a call with CEO Steve Huffman (spez), and he said the following per their transcript: > Steve: "Apollo threatened us, said they’ll “make it easy” if Reddit gave them $10 million." Steve: "This guy behind the scenes is coercing us. He's threatening us." This doesn't sound like a transcript. I don't know what it is, but that's not how anyone in a work call would behave. Supposing Apollo did threaten Reddit, why would spez even mention that to the mods? Something's weird.
- Kalium 3y ago
  > Maybe I'm missing it, but that claim seems unverified. Did Christian post a transcript somewhere of exactly what Steve said to the mods? It seems like this could all be a big misunderstanding... He posted a transcript of what Steve told moderators. He posted a transcript - and recording - of the exact conversation with Steve in which this part of the conversation takes place. Both are in the OP reddit thread here. Just search for "transcript" in the page. It's the sort of thing you'd say to mods if you think it will get them off your back.
  - sillysaurusx 3y ago
    > He posted a transcript of what Steve told moderators. The part I pasted, right? > Steve: "Apollo threatened us, said they’ll “make it easy” if Reddit gave them $10 million." Steve: "This guy behind the scenes is coercing us. He's threatening us." That's not a transcript. That's a sentence devoid of context. We're now two steps removed -- not only do we need to believe Christian, but Christian needs to believe whatever mod sent that to him. Who's the mod? Why is the mod telling Christian anything? Why was Steve talking to mods about Apollo's threat? None of this makes any sense. I don't think anyone has malicious intent here –– bet you $50 that it turns out to be some weird miscommunication. After all, there's zero benefit for Steve to be doing any of those things, and a whole lot of downside. Ins't a miscomm the more plausible theory? Ironically, if Christian's claims are unsubstantiated, then he's slandering Steve. But Steve slandering Christian to internal employees is precisely what Christian's so angry about. But why would internal employees break ranks and go tell Christian? There's something more going on here. I'm not sure what. > He posted a transcript - and recording - of the exact conversation with Steve in which this part of the conversation takes place. That's the point -- all that he's posted is a transcript where Steve says mea culpa. Then he posted some other person's two-sentence "transcript" of Steve badmouthing him. But it's not a transcript; it's weird.
Zetice 3y ago
And you know he's reading these. Steve, come on. Maybe Apollo shuts down, maybe you figure something out, but this whole thing becomes a lot easier to judge as an outsider if one group starts throwing mud like this. You should know better.
gigel82 3y ago
They probably thought it'll be a "he said/she said" situation and people will err on the side of the big co vs. the little guy. It's extremely funny that the conversation was recorded, so satisfying to catch them in a lie so open-faced...
jonas21 3y ago
It sounds to me like the conversation went in a way that it could be interpreted as a threat. This is from the Apollo developer's own telling of the story: > As said, a common suggestion across the many threads on this topic was "If third-party apps are costing Reddit so much money, why don't they just buy them out like they did Alien Blue?" That was the point I brought up. If running Apollo as it stands now would cost you $20 million yearly as you quote, I suggested you cut a check to me to end Apollo. I said I'd even do it for half that or six months worth: $10 million, what a deal! If someone said that to me, i.e. "hey, just give me $10 million and I'll stop making things difficult for you," I would interpret that as a threat, even if they denied that it was.
- rocky_raccoon 3y ago
  You should listen to the audio transcript that was posted in the original link. I believe it will dispel that notion.
  - dbbk 3y ago
    It doesn't dispel it
  - haberman 3y ago
    I listened and I'm still confused. I would love to see someone state clearly: 1. What was Christian actually offering to do in exchange for $10M? 2. What did the Reddit person think that Christian was offering to do in exchange for $10M? 3. How are (1) and (2) different?
    - aniforprez 3y ago
      I can only surmise from all the posts and interviews that Christian has done post that call but it simply seems like he tried calling their bluff on the $20 million number and/or was fishing for a buyout. He found the number ridiculous, the reddit admin told him that this number wasn't server costs but opportunity costs for lost revenue, Christian decided to poke the bear and ask if instead of him paying them 20 million dollars a year, they could buy him for 6 months of that "lost revenue" and then make that revenue for themselves. He was offering to be acquihired and was simultaneously calling their bluff about the API pricing The reddit person seems to have thought that Christian was threatening them in some way??? I genuinely don't know what Christian could even have threatened them with. It seems to me they didn't understand the power dynamic at all of a small solo app developer talking to a massive corporation. Maybe they thought he was threatening simply shut his app down for that amount without telling anyone which might have avoided this ruckus? I'm sorry but I genuinely cannot fathom what they thought was going on 1 and 2 are different in that clearly the admin thought Christian was making a threat to their business whereas he was merely calling their bluff and possibly opening himself to business negotiations if reddit actually thought his app was worth that much. Through all this it feels like Christian did not communicate what he wanted effectively (though this seems to have been a throwaway line in a much longer call that got misconstrued gravely) and the admin was simply not equipped at all to handle negotiations
hackernewds 3y ago
If you listen to the audio recording, it does appear the founder of Apollo heavily and directly proposed a buyout of $10M to go quiet.
not_a_shill 3y ago
To be fair, buying 3rd party apps out makes absolutely zero sense when they can just ban them and improve their own client if that aligns with their business priorities. I stopped reading at that point. I probably would have laughed at the suggestion instead of taking it as blackmail though.
- anton000 3y ago
  have you tried using reddit's own app? they couldve bought Apollo for $10m and made that the official app. lol
  - not_a_shill 3y ago
    Didn't they do that with AlienBlue? I never used it so I have no idea how much of it is left or what they gimped. Regardless, if they wanted to create a better app they'd do it. They don't want to.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

goles 3y ago

Isn’t this the same guy who went and edited comments of users who were critical of him on Reddit? If someone shows you who they are believe them…

proxiful-wash 3y ago
Its the same guy who has let the entire platform be exploited for years at the expense of the people just wanting to connect about subjects online.
- SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
  He’s also got a pretty sweet panic bunker, guns, food, and fuel supplies stashed away so when the division and panic he directly benefits from comes to a flash point he can ride it out safely. Steve Huffman is not a good person.
  - fknorangesite 3y ago
    But hey - he's "a pretty good leader. [Who] will probably be in charge, or at least not a slave, when push comes to shove." https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/01/30/doomsday-prep-for-the-super-rich https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/01/30/doomsday-prep-...
    - SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
      Amazing the tone and treatment difference because he is very liberal.

favorited 3y ago

I wonder how the employees will feel when they realize they were lied to, now that Christian has released an audio recording of the call.

nkjnlknlk 3y ago
Unless there is another job offering with similar compensation/benefits/etc. I'm not sure most employees will be able to do anything. "Leaders" and bold-faced lies are a duo as old as time. Macroeconomic conditions have many chained to their shitty bosses.
- favorited 3y ago
  It's less about what they can do, and more about whether they'll trust whatever their CEO says next time.
  - feliscat 3y ago
    I don't think that most people trust what the CEO of their company says generally. I know I don't.
    - Aeolun 3y ago
      Hmm, I think I trust that my CEO isn’t lying to me. It’s just that he isn’t ultimately in control. If he says something and the board changes their minds the day after, he’s stuck.
esskay 3y ago
given Spez has a long history of lying they probably dont care, they're just as complicit as he is.

kstrauser 3y ago

The same CEO that explicitly confessed to editing users' comments? I can totally believe that.

soneil 3y ago

They also made the same claim in r/partnercommunities too, not just internally. https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/143sho8/admins_claim_apollo_threatened_them_whats_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/143sho8/admins_c...

Defman 3y ago
From the linked post: > We are open to postponing the API timeline to launch mod tooling, if mods agree to keep their subreddits open. We will discuss this in the Council and Partner call tomorrow Is that a threat, lol?
- flutas 3y ago
  Even funnier to me, there's a not even thinly veiled threat right below it. >Blackout > We respect your right to protest – that’s part of democracy. >This situation is a bit different, with some mods leading the charge, some users pressuring mods. We’re trying to work through all of the unique situations. >Big picture: We are tolerant, but also a duty to keep Reddit online. >If people want to do this out of anger, we want to make sure they’re mad for accurate reasons, not over things that are untrue. That’s a loss for everyone. AKA: If you protest we will remove you from the mod team for that sub, and force the sub back to public.
  - Defman 3y ago
    Not the first time they are doing it, from what I know. There was some AMA controversy that led to a similar blackout and mod replacements.
    - johnnyanmac 3y ago
      Yeah, IIRC r/pics (a "default sub" back when that was still a concept) tried to do a blackout but came back on with similar accusations that the admins intervened.
  - ThatMedicIsASpy 3y ago

dtech 3y ago

To be honest it sounded like that to me too. It's very hard to differentiate between some honest clumsy phrasing and fishing for a payout, and the "clarification" doesn't help with that since it could also be an excuse to save face.

Panoramix 3y ago
Maybe with text snippets, but I don't see how somebody can listen to the conversation and come away with the idea that the dev was blackmailing anyone. https://christianselig.com/apollo-end/reddit-third-call-may-31-end.m4a https://christianselig.com/apollo-end/reddit-third-call-may-...
- xNeil 3y ago
  I mean, even in the text snippets you can see that they seem to understand after a bit as to what Christian was talking about.
  - dtech 3y ago
    in both the text snippet and the audio it sounds to me like 2 people politely pretending that the offer wasn't made. Notice how the CEO basically immediately cuts off the call after the "clarification"
- dbbk 3y ago
  I don't really buy the phrase "go quiet" in terms of API usage, it does sound like the developer was backtracking when called out on it
  - crypot 3y ago
    Definitely. It just makes no sense otherwise.
  - roflyear 3y ago
    Why misquote? He said "have Apollo quiet down" not "go quiet" he only said "go quiet" after the Reddit rep said that, in response. At least have your facts straight.

foota 3y ago

The author doesn't want to look at it this way, but this is a really weird thing to say. My interpretation was that they'd make an offer to sell the app to reddit, but the specific phrasing there really is not that. edit: I still think it was the wrong way to approach the situation. Consider this from reddit's perspective, it would only make sense for Reddit to pay for the traffic if they think they would lose it if it Apollo went away, but then it's not opportunity cost. It doesn't make the change any better of a look for reddit, and you can certainly question whether it's true that Apollo users would just use reddit, but if you accept that then I don't think you can claim the moral high ground if you offer to accept payment to "make it go away". The developer should have approached this from the perspective of the value that Apollo offers users and reddit instead of the cost to make the problem go away. I imagine the dev doesn't accept that Apollo users would just switch over, but they shouldn't have made their statement in those terms then, and I think that was a mistake.

TechBro8615 3y ago

Not only do the receipts contradict the Reddit CEO, but even if they didn't, the Apollo dev is well within his rights to offer an ultimatum that either Reddit acquires his app, or he shuts it down. If he has enough leverage in that situation for Reddit to feel as if that's "blackmail," then it actually means that Reddit is the one blackmailing him with the pricing changes. On one hand they claim they need to increase pricing to cover their costs, but on the other hand, if he offers (or threatens, according to Reddit) to remove all those costs, they consider it "blackmail" - meaning they're losing something if Apollo shuts down. So why can't they either buy the app or provide discounted API rates or some specialized payment schedule that derisks Apollo's costs instead of forcing a $50,000 bill on them in thirty days?

Malp 3y ago
DARVO
thepasswordis 3y ago
It was certainly telling when Apollo guy offered what seemed like a pretty lighthearted open in a potential negotiation, and reddit claimed this as "blackmail". When I negotiate the price on a piece of real estate, I often will include things that I want the owner to fix before closing (this is very common). The implication is "fix this or I won't buy the property". Is that "blackmail"? Apparently according to Spez it is.
DangitBobby 3y ago
It was the "go quiet" part, as in if they don't just buy him out he'll scream and cry to the public so they get really negative publicity on the API updates. To be clear, I don't think that's what he meant, but I think that's what the Reddit person thought was being said.
- nicce 3y ago
  It was more about joking. Reddit claimed that Apollo made them lose money 20 million per year, so they had to add API prices. Joke was to offer the app for half the price if the pricing was legitimate, and keep the users.

Pyxl101 3y ago

I've listened to the voice call [1] linked in [2] and I interpret it the same way that Reddit staff apparently did -- as a veiled threat. Here's why: Christian is saying during the call that if Reddit wants Apollo to "quiet down", then to "make it easier" on everyone, Reddit should pay Christian $10 million dollars. I agree that there is ambiguity to the conversation, but if you listen to the exchange in context ... it sure sounds like Christian's offer is for Apollo to "go away quietly", as in he personally won't make noise about it. I'm not honestly sure that there's another sound way to interpret this. Listen to the audio yourselves and consider: what exactly is Christian offering in exchange for $10m? It's not the cessation of API requests, because Reddit already has it own their power to make that happen unilaterally. Therefore it must be something else. This 'clarification' that Christian provides afterwards, stating that he means API utilization will "go quiet", doesn't make sense, because Reddit doesn't need to pay for that. Again, he must be referring to something else. What is Reddit buying for $10m? The answer that "Christian will shut down the app and go quietly" is the only answer that makes sense in context. We should also keep in mind that actual, intended threats aren't necessarily going to be communicated explicitly. If you imagine a lobbyist threatening, say, a congressperson, would they say explicitly: "Vote for our initiative or else we'll stop funding you and fund your opposition"? No, almost certainly not. They'd say something that communicates the threat but requires reading between the lines -- as is the case here. Even without the need for threats, Christian has a reason to be unhappy with the API change, and voice his criticism of it publicly. It might be what he was planning to do anyway. So perhaps he's offering for Reddit to buy him out in exchange for ceasing his public criticism. It's not precisely a threat because regardless of the offer he might have been planning to criticize Reddit publicly. But it sure would feel like a threat to Reddit. "Buy me out or else I'm going to cause even more public fuss about this". The way that it's communicated, it lands as a threat from my perspective, because the payment will not be for anything besides his silence. [1] http://christianselig.com/apollo-end/reddit-third-call-may-31-end.m4a http://christianselig.com/apollo-end/reddit-third-call-may-3... [2] https://old.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/apollo_will_close_down_on_june_30th_reddits/ https://old.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/apollo_w...

DHPersonal 3y ago
Is it really a threat to offer to sell Apollo rather than face the public backlash that will happen by forcing it to shut down?

sillysaurusx 3y ago

I know I'm stretching really far with this, but is it at all possible that the mods made that up, or somehow misheard Steve? Maybe I'm missing it, but that claim seems unverified. Did Christian post a transcript somewhere of exactly what Steve said to the mods? It seems like this could all be a big misunderstanding... Basically, the whole post hinges on the claim that spez was telling internal employees that Christian was making threats. But neither the calls nor the transcript seems to give any details about what exactly spez said. I'm inclined to take Christian's word, but we should all be aware that we are in fact taking him at his word, rather than the claim being proven. It seems really hard to believe that spez would apologize for misunderstanding him and then immediately tell employees that he was threatening Reddit. This feels like a misunderstanding rather than malicious intent. > Then yesterday, moderators told me they were on a call with CEO Steve Huffman (spez), and he said the following per their transcript: > Steve: "Apollo threatened us, said they’ll “make it easy” if Reddit gave them $10 million." Steve: "This guy behind the scenes is coercing us. He's threatening us." This doesn't sound like a transcript. I don't know what it is, but that's not how anyone in a work call would behave. Supposing Apollo did threaten Reddit, why would spez even mention that to the mods? Something's weird.

Kalium 3y ago
> Maybe I'm missing it, but that claim seems unverified. Did Christian post a transcript somewhere of exactly what Steve said to the mods? It seems like this could all be a big misunderstanding... He posted a transcript of what Steve told moderators. He posted a transcript - and recording - of the exact conversation with Steve in which this part of the conversation takes place. Both are in the OP reddit thread here. Just search for "transcript" in the page. It's the sort of thing you'd say to mods if you think it will get them off your back.
- sillysaurusx 3y ago
  > He posted a transcript of what Steve told moderators. The part I pasted, right? > Steve: "Apollo threatened us, said they’ll “make it easy” if Reddit gave them $10 million." Steve: "This guy behind the scenes is coercing us. He's threatening us." That's not a transcript. That's a sentence devoid of context. We're now two steps removed -- not only do we need to believe Christian, but Christian needs to believe whatever mod sent that to him. Who's the mod? Why is the mod telling Christian anything? Why was Steve talking to mods about Apollo's threat? None of this makes any sense. I don't think anyone has malicious intent here –– bet you $50 that it turns out to be some weird miscommunication. After all, there's zero benefit for Steve to be doing any of those things, and a whole lot of downside. Ins't a miscomm the more plausible theory? Ironically, if Christian's claims are unsubstantiated, then he's slandering Steve. But Steve slandering Christian to internal employees is precisely what Christian's so angry about. But why would internal employees break ranks and go tell Christian? There's something more going on here. I'm not sure what. > He posted a transcript - and recording - of the exact conversation with Steve in which this part of the conversation takes place. That's the point -- all that he's posted is a transcript where Steve says mea culpa. Then he posted some other person's two-sentence "transcript" of Steve badmouthing him. But it's not a transcript; it's weird.

Zetice 3y ago

And you know he's reading these. Steve, come on. Maybe Apollo shuts down, maybe you figure something out, but this whole thing becomes a lot easier to judge as an outsider if one group starts throwing mud like this. You should know better.

gigel82 3y ago

They probably thought it'll be a "he said/she said" situation and people will err on the side of the big co vs. the little guy. It's extremely funny that the conversation was recorded, so satisfying to catch them in a lie so open-faced...

jonas21 3y ago

It sounds to me like the conversation went in a way that it could be interpreted as a threat. This is from the Apollo developer's own telling of the story: > As said, a common suggestion across the many threads on this topic was "If third-party apps are costing Reddit so much money, why don't they just buy them out like they did Alien Blue?" That was the point I brought up. If running Apollo as it stands now would cost you $20 million yearly as you quote, I suggested you cut a check to me to end Apollo. I said I'd even do it for half that or six months worth: $10 million, what a deal! If someone said that to me, i.e. "hey, just give me $10 million and I'll stop making things difficult for you," I would interpret that as a threat, even if they denied that it was.

rocky_raccoon 3y ago
You should listen to the audio transcript that was posted in the original link. I believe it will dispel that notion.
- dbbk 3y ago
  It doesn't dispel it
- haberman 3y ago
  I listened and I'm still confused. I would love to see someone state clearly: 1. What was Christian actually offering to do in exchange for $10M? 2. What did the Reddit person think that Christian was offering to do in exchange for $10M? 3. How are (1) and (2) different?
  - aniforprez 3y ago
    I can only surmise from all the posts and interviews that Christian has done post that call but it simply seems like he tried calling their bluff on the $20 million number and/or was fishing for a buyout. He found the number ridiculous, the reddit admin told him that this number wasn't server costs but opportunity costs for lost revenue, Christian decided to poke the bear and ask if instead of him paying them 20 million dollars a year, they could buy him for 6 months of that "lost revenue" and then make that revenue for themselves. He was offering to be acquihired and was simultaneously calling their bluff about the API pricing The reddit person seems to have thought that Christian was threatening them in some way??? I genuinely don't know what Christian could even have threatened them with. It seems to me they didn't understand the power dynamic at all of a small solo app developer talking to a massive corporation. Maybe they thought he was threatening simply shut his app down for that amount without telling anyone which might have avoided this ruckus? I'm sorry but I genuinely cannot fathom what they thought was going on 1 and 2 are different in that clearly the admin thought Christian was making a threat to their business whereas he was merely calling their bluff and possibly opening himself to business negotiations if reddit actually thought his app was worth that much. Through all this it feels like Christian did not communicate what he wanted effectively (though this seems to have been a throwaway line in a much longer call that got misconstrued gravely) and the admin was simply not equipped at all to handle negotiations

hackernewds 3y ago

If you listen to the audio recording, it does appear the founder of Apollo heavily and directly proposed a buyout of $10M to go quiet.

not_a_shill 3y ago

To be fair, buying 3rd party apps out makes absolutely zero sense when they can just ban them and improve their own client if that aligns with their business priorities. I stopped reading at that point. I probably would have laughed at the suggestion instead of taking it as blackmail though.

anton000 3y ago
have you tried using reddit's own app? they couldve bought Apollo for $10m and made that the official app. lol
- not_a_shill 3y ago
  Didn't they do that with AlienBlue? I never used it so I have no idea how much of it is left or what they gimped. Regardless, if they wanted to create a better app they'd do it. They don't want to.
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