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My issue as an EU citizen is how "lobby permeable" the regulations are. US tech is lobbying the EU too now. Proposals start out strong and become PR operations

My issue as an EU citizen is how "lobby permeable" the regulations are. US tech is lobbying the EU too now. Proposals start out strong and become PR operations after the watering down. - Implement net neutrality but give data exemptions to mobile data operators if the traffic is from Facebook or Whatsapp. - Implement ban on single use plastics but add so many exemptions that Nestle, Coca-Cola, Unilever, continue business as usual - Implement Green New Deal but add a metric tonne of taxpayers money to support Hidrogen because Shell says so - Start a Ban on ICEs but then push it back another 15 years because Exxon says so Etc.

nolok 3y ago
I don't disagree with you but an insufficient regulation is still better than none though.
- DoingIsLearning 3y ago
  Indeed but for all the plutocracy criticism we make of the US system we are pretty toothless at addressing conflict of interest and quid pro quos at EC level.
- monopoliessuck 3y ago
  This isn't necessarily true. Regulations that create exceptions for key big players entrench them further and their poor business practices against competitors that wish to usurp their market dominance. New entrants have to play by the rules, but established ones get preferential treatment.
Topfi 3y ago
That is a fair point, regulation often gets watered down as it undergoes revision after revision, though in fairness, most cases can not be solely blamed on US tech. The stricter timetable for an ICE ban, to use something mentioned, was mainly changed due to pressure from European business interests, including in part Poland, Germany, Austria, etc. Essentially countries with a significant Auto industry that hasn't pivoted to EVs in the same way as e.g. France. I did not hear of Exxon lobbying to that extent in this case, but maybe I just missed that. Basically, whilst US concerns definitely have their lobbying efforts in Brussels and Strasbourg, we need to be aware that European business is just as able and willing to engage in the same. The lack of interest in European politics compared to the national level tends to make this more frictionless and effective too, though that is a bit of a chicken/egg problem. People won't engage much with EU politics if the EU is seen as overly bureaucratic and lead by lobbyists, but there is little incentive to change without public interest. Still feel that regulators can do tremendous good if motivated. The US has shown their abilities during Dieselgate, the EU in data protection. We, the public, need to tune in. Writing letters and calling does make a difference, as hard as that can be to believe.
sofixa 3y ago
> - Implement Green New Deal but add a metric tonne of taxpayers money to support Hidrogen because Shell says so Hydrogen is pretty much the main hope for truly carbon neutral replacement of industry use of natural gas (huge in Germany for instance). Long range transportation could also probably use it - modern day batteries are simply impossible to use on e.g. medium and up range aircraft. It's not simply a "because Shell said so thing". France is also investing massively in hydrogen, in multiple local companies Shell has nothing to do with. > - Start a Ban on ICEs but then push it back another 15 years because Exxon says so I'm fairly sure the ban on new ICEs is for so out in the future because it's simply impossible to replace all automobile manufacturing capacity much quicker; and if anyone is lobbying against it (do Exxon even do business in the EU??), it's existing EU-based manufacturers that have to retool their entire supply chains to produce EVs. Most are on their way, but EVs are still a small part of their portfolio and manufacturing capacity. Not to mention the drastic loss of employment that will come. It's just not something you can do with short notice.
- MagnumOpus 3y ago
  > do Exxon even do business in the EU Not sure if you are joking... Even if you don't have an Esso petrol pump within a few minutes' drive unlike the majority of Europeans, in their own words "We are one of Europe’s largest oil and gas producers, a major refiner of crude oil for fuels and lubricants, and one of Europe’s leading petrochemical companies"
  - tough 3y ago
    They have a pretty big shop on rotterdam https://www.exxonmobil.be/en-be/company/locations/netherlands https://www.exxonmobil.be/en-be/company/locations/netherland...
  - NikkiA 3y ago
    And in the bits where there's no Esso, you'll likely find them hiding as Mobil.
- scns 3y ago
  > Hydrogen is pretty much the main hope for truly carbon neutral replacement of industry use of natural gas (huge in Germany for instance). Long range transportation could also probably use it In Switzerland the three big wholesalers got together and switched their whole truck fleet to hydrogen. They have the foresight to invest their money well.
rjzzleep 3y ago
It's a matter of competence. EU is a massive technocrat apparatus with countless incompetent unelected failed teachers, political scientists, and MBA's. How does anyone think they could possibly create sound legislation? It happens sometimes, but it's more of a mistake than a feature. It's because sometimes the lobbyists intentions align with ours, not because most of the MPs are working in our interests. I am certain that most of them do think that they are actually working for the betterment of our societies though. Most societies at various times that built future proof infrastructure had a healthy amount of engineers at the higher levels. Germany, France, the US, China(whatever you make think of their society they are clearly at the forefront of hard tech and infrastructure investments right now), Taiwan(or R.O.C.). If you listen to older folks in Taiwan they will tell you that a lot of infrastructure including the heavy investment in semiconductors and other infrastructure early on was very much related to the amount of engineers they had in senior leadership.
- nolok 3y ago
  > It's a matter of competence. EU is a massive technocrat apparatus with countless incompetent unelected failed teachers, political scientists, and MBA's. With that level of "knowledge" about the EU and how it works and is composed, you should probably educate yourself a little bit on the matter before making such affirmative comments.
  - rjzzleep 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - nolok 3y ago
      > So you decided to personally attack and gaslight people because you have some irrational belief in something that is fundamentally undemocratic and corrupt. No, I decided that if someone's answer is false enough that it sounds exagerated on purpose, then I prefer to assume that person is genuinely uninformed because the other possibility isn't worth spening my time on. As for your point of view, the minister / cabinet members / ... Of your governement are not directly elected either, they're named by the people you elected to handle that part of their governement, it's the same principle. Again if you don't understand this principle then this is not a conversation worth having without you first learning about how representative democracies work, and if you understand it but disagree with it that's your point of view you're allowed it but that's another dicussion entirely.
mola 3y ago
These companies are exploring bad business behavior all over the world. US is exporting wholesale anything that is detrimental for democracy. It's nuts
otikik 3y ago
Isn’t this a word wide problem, though? Since we live in a capitalist society, if Big Money wants something, they use Big Money Lobby to get it. That’s true in Europe, US, China, India or Africa.
- tough 3y ago
  Lobbying is just legalised corruption

nolok 3y ago

I don't disagree with you but an insufficient regulation is still better than none though.

DoingIsLearning 3y ago
Indeed but for all the plutocracy criticism we make of the US system we are pretty toothless at addressing conflict of interest and quid pro quos at EC level.
monopoliessuck 3y ago
This isn't necessarily true. Regulations that create exceptions for key big players entrench them further and their poor business practices against competitors that wish to usurp their market dominance. New entrants have to play by the rules, but established ones get preferential treatment.

Topfi 3y ago

That is a fair point, regulation often gets watered down as it undergoes revision after revision, though in fairness, most cases can not be solely blamed on US tech. The stricter timetable for an ICE ban, to use something mentioned, was mainly changed due to pressure from European business interests, including in part Poland, Germany, Austria, etc. Essentially countries with a significant Auto industry that hasn't pivoted to EVs in the same way as e.g. France. I did not hear of Exxon lobbying to that extent in this case, but maybe I just missed that. Basically, whilst US concerns definitely have their lobbying efforts in Brussels and Strasbourg, we need to be aware that European business is just as able and willing to engage in the same. The lack of interest in European politics compared to the national level tends to make this more frictionless and effective too, though that is a bit of a chicken/egg problem. People won't engage much with EU politics if the EU is seen as overly bureaucratic and lead by lobbyists, but there is little incentive to change without public interest. Still feel that regulators can do tremendous good if motivated. The US has shown their abilities during Dieselgate, the EU in data protection. We, the public, need to tune in. Writing letters and calling does make a difference, as hard as that can be to believe.

sofixa 3y ago

> - Implement Green New Deal but add a metric tonne of taxpayers money to support Hidrogen because Shell says so Hydrogen is pretty much the main hope for truly carbon neutral replacement of industry use of natural gas (huge in Germany for instance). Long range transportation could also probably use it - modern day batteries are simply impossible to use on e.g. medium and up range aircraft. It's not simply a "because Shell said so thing". France is also investing massively in hydrogen, in multiple local companies Shell has nothing to do with. > - Start a Ban on ICEs but then push it back another 15 years because Exxon says so I'm fairly sure the ban on new ICEs is for so out in the future because it's simply impossible to replace all automobile manufacturing capacity much quicker; and if anyone is lobbying against it (do Exxon even do business in the EU??), it's existing EU-based manufacturers that have to retool their entire supply chains to produce EVs. Most are on their way, but EVs are still a small part of their portfolio and manufacturing capacity. Not to mention the drastic loss of employment that will come. It's just not something you can do with short notice.

MagnumOpus 3y ago
> do Exxon even do business in the EU Not sure if you are joking... Even if you don't have an Esso petrol pump within a few minutes' drive unlike the majority of Europeans, in their own words "We are one of Europe’s largest oil and gas producers, a major refiner of crude oil for fuels and lubricants, and one of Europe’s leading petrochemical companies"
- tough 3y ago
  They have a pretty big shop on rotterdam https://www.exxonmobil.be/en-be/company/locations/netherlands https://www.exxonmobil.be/en-be/company/locations/netherland...
- NikkiA 3y ago
  And in the bits where there's no Esso, you'll likely find them hiding as Mobil.
scns 3y ago
> Hydrogen is pretty much the main hope for truly carbon neutral replacement of industry use of natural gas (huge in Germany for instance). Long range transportation could also probably use it In Switzerland the three big wholesalers got together and switched their whole truck fleet to hydrogen. They have the foresight to invest their money well.

rjzzleep 3y ago

It's a matter of competence. EU is a massive technocrat apparatus with countless incompetent unelected failed teachers, political scientists, and MBA's. How does anyone think they could possibly create sound legislation? It happens sometimes, but it's more of a mistake than a feature. It's because sometimes the lobbyists intentions align with ours, not because most of the MPs are working in our interests. I am certain that most of them do think that they are actually working for the betterment of our societies though. Most societies at various times that built future proof infrastructure had a healthy amount of engineers at the higher levels. Germany, France, the US, China(whatever you make think of their society they are clearly at the forefront of hard tech and infrastructure investments right now), Taiwan(or R.O.C.). If you listen to older folks in Taiwan they will tell you that a lot of infrastructure including the heavy investment in semiconductors and other infrastructure early on was very much related to the amount of engineers they had in senior leadership.

nolok 3y ago
> It's a matter of competence. EU is a massive technocrat apparatus with countless incompetent unelected failed teachers, political scientists, and MBA's. With that level of "knowledge" about the EU and how it works and is composed, you should probably educate yourself a little bit on the matter before making such affirmative comments.
- rjzzleep 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - nolok 3y ago
    > So you decided to personally attack and gaslight people because you have some irrational belief in something that is fundamentally undemocratic and corrupt. No, I decided that if someone's answer is false enough that it sounds exagerated on purpose, then I prefer to assume that person is genuinely uninformed because the other possibility isn't worth spening my time on. As for your point of view, the minister / cabinet members / ... Of your governement are not directly elected either, they're named by the people you elected to handle that part of their governement, it's the same principle. Again if you don't understand this principle then this is not a conversation worth having without you first learning about how representative democracies work, and if you understand it but disagree with it that's your point of view you're allowed it but that's another dicussion entirely.

mola 3y ago

These companies are exploring bad business behavior all over the world. US is exporting wholesale anything that is detrimental for democracy. It's nuts

otikik 3y ago

Isn’t this a word wide problem, though? Since we live in a capitalist society, if Big Money wants something, they use Big Money Lobby to get it. That’s true in Europe, US, China, India or Africa.

tough 3y ago
Lobbying is just legalised corruption