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As John Siracusa discussed on this week's ATP[0], it's incredible how much effort Apple puts into this considering the result. Apple built it's own little paral

• DCKing 3y ago
  > Apple built it's own little parallel gaming stack world that works really well on their hardware I think saying "its own parallel gaming stack" probably gives them too much credit [1]. Yes - they put in significant effort, but their gaming stack is neither "parallel" to the rest of the world, nor "their own" in any real sense. They seem to have adapted the open source efforts of Codeweavers, Valve, Wine and the broader Linux community put in Proton and achieving Windows games compatibility on Linux with Vulkan. Adapting that for Metal is no small feat [2] but an investment a giant like Apple can easily make without much risks. Don't forget that Wine has always been developed for Linux and macOS (and the BSDs) in parallel too - it was right there for the taking. [1]: I'm assuming this is a quote sourced from someone who just isn't aware of all the effort being made at the Linux side of thing in the last five years. [2]: At a technical level Metal and Vulkan are actually similar enough, but there's just a lot of surface to cover and edge cases to get right.
  • yreg 3y ago
    Metal itself is the parallel stack, no? Granted, Metal is to a degree useful for the casual iOS games where alone Apple probably makes more money than anyone else in the gaming industry. >I'm assuming this is a quote sourced from someone who just isn't aware of all the effort being made at the Linux side of thing The podcaster does acknowledge that as well, I just didn't quote that part. The whole "rant" has about 4 minutes. But thanks for providing context, it is important.
    • DCKing 3y ago
      > Metal itself is the parallel stack, no? Ah perhaps I interpreted the quote in the wrong way then. At first it read to me as if Apple did their own bespoke compatibility work, but it's a comment about the mostly artificial Apple Silicon GPU / Metal stack that is only available on Apple devices.
      • cormacrelf 3y ago
        Worth noting that Apple poured a lot of resources into making WebGPU happen. WebGPU is, in a great many ways, Metal but cross-platform. The way this pays off is if game developers start targeting WebGPU instead of Vulkan or DX12. That could happen since WebGPU is a meant to be a lot easier to code against than Vulkan. This effort to port DX12 can probably be seen as more of a hedge than anything else. They know that some publishers will stick to what they know for some time, but they wish for it to be easier to see the upside of a cross platform investment by publishers by delivering an easier win. If it doesn’t work perfectly but gets close, that still helps them a lot. Because Metal is no longer some parallel stack they’re promoting and wanting people to build Apple-exclusive games for, it’s a means to an end, and the end is WebGPU and cross-platform.
        • nightski 3y ago
          Game developers are not going to start mass adopting a JavaScript API.
          • vore 3y ago
            WebGPU is not JavaScript only: https://eliemichel.github.io/LearnWebGPU/ https://eliemichel.github.io/LearnWebGPU/
            • astrange 3y ago
              Does it really work well for other use cases? Obviously you can call it, but typically a web API has many more security issues to handle than a native API, so I'd expect there to be a lot of compromises a game developer wouldn't want to deal with.
  • spookie 3y ago
    Wine/Proton is great. I still hit the "oh I need to set this env var" from time to time (mostly due to my Nvidia card). But, it's fantastic. When you use Bottles to wrap it for ease of use/setup, you catch a glimpse of a future where no program is tied to Windows anymore. Hope the same can happen with MacOS! And vice-versa.
• chrisco255 3y ago
  Personally, I appreciate this effort, not for AAA games, because I never bought a MacBook expecting it to be able to...but for much more casual or lower poly games that are available on Steam for Windows users only, because it's too hard to port. There's tons of sub-AAA games that could easily be ported and enjoyed on a modern M1/M2 Mac.
  • ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
    Speaking only for myself, I use Macs to get work done. The lack of games is actually a plus, as I can get compulsive with games. It's funny, when people denigrate the worst gaming platform in the world as a "toy computer." People get Macs, that want to get work done. As noted previously, there's really nothing that can beat a well-built PC gaming rig. I don't really think Apple has ever cared about the Mac as a gaming platform, and the low-key hype around these technologies shows that. These almost seem like "developer 20% projects," compared to the big stuff, like visionOS. That said, I think that Apple wants iOS/iPadOS/visionOS to be gaming platforms, so they do dedicate a lot of resources to that.
    • heyoni 3y ago
      I don’t know, you say that but there are plenty of triple A games in the App Store and Apple did put in the effort into getting their game subscription to work on their desktops. Let’s be real, we might all be getting more work done as a result but that’s because Apple dropped the ball, hard. They came out with the metal api but refused to support any others, even letting open GL fester. The fact that they couldn’t keep Blizzard of all companies developing games for the mac is all you need to know.
      • flashback2199 3y ago
        I'm curious if Apple dropped the ball or if there is still something of an anti-gaming culture inside Apple since I know that the company was de facto anti-gaming in the late 90s going forward. In that era they actively killed off relationships with gaming companies, e.g. the game that eventually became Halo was originally a Macintosh exclusive. More recent things like the legal theatrics with Epic Games gives one a picture of a company that is still not necessarily super keen on fully embracing the gaming scene.
• wslh 3y ago
  Don't you think that Apple could tackle the performance issues in GPUs in the following years? The core issue here, business wise, is the price tag. People of all social classes use gaming consoles and it is difficult to think Apple can be relevant in this market even if they tackle all other issues.
  • yreg 3y ago
    Nevermind the low end (it will always be an uphill battle to compete with the consoles on price), the issue is that Apple doesn't even cater to the high end.
• senttoschool 3y ago
  >Like how does all this Metal, compile-your-shaders, port-your-games stuff even get budgeted, when it's eventually dead on arrival? iOS gaming is the biggest and most profitable in the world. In fact, iOS is bigger than PS5, Xbox, and PC gaming. iOS uses Metal. Apple Silicon is mostly just a scaled up iPhone SoC. Macs basically get most things funded by iOS. The Game Porting Toolkit is the first Mac-only gaming tool Apple made in a long time. It shows that Apple wants AAA games on Macs. >But then Apple doesn't ship devices with actually powerful GPUs, so it can never compete with the gaming PCs which are far less expensive and far more powerfull graphics-wise. But Apple does ship powerful GPUs. In fact, the M2 Max is probably the most or second most powerful GPU on laptops. But games aren't optimized for Metal nor ARM, so they run slower than Nvidia laptop GPUs.
  • _piif 3y ago
    > But Apple does ship powerful GPUs. In fact, the M2 Max is probably the most or second most powerful GPU on laptops. But games aren't optimized for Metal nor ARM, so they run slower than Nvidia laptop GPUs. The most powerful iGPU likely. It still won't come anywhere close to high-end dedicated laptop GPUs in the vast majority of benchmarks regardless of how much optimization you throw at it - that's just falling for marketing / hype.
    • aurareturn 3y ago
      >The most powerful iGPU likely. It still won't come anywhere close to high-end dedicated laptop GPUs in the vast majority of benchmarks regardless of how much optimization you throw at it - that's just falling for marketing / hype. In applications that actually use Metal natively, Apple Silicon GPUs do compare favorably to Nvidia laptop GPUs while using drastically less power. So no. It isn't just hype/marketing. Even if you look at the raw technical specs of the M2 Max GPU, it's comparable to Nvidia laptop GPUs - with the exception of ray tracing.
      • dahauns 3y ago
        >In applications that actually use Metal natively, Apple Silicon GPUs do compare favorably to Nvidia laptop GPUs while using drastically less power. Is that really the case? I'm not being facetious here, I'd really like to see more useful datapoints. There aren't many benchmark comparisons out there that strive for actual useful comparison, especially outside synthetic stuff with questionable applicability like 3dMark. And for the "drastically less power" claim...it really doesn't help that most benchmarks are with decked-out "Gamer" machines using the highest available TDP configuration, despite most GPUs having their sweet spot significantly below - especially Ada Lovelace seem to scale down really well (from what I've gathered, still 60-70% performance at 60W compared to 150W with 4080 Mobile, for example). >Even if you look at the raw technical specs of the M2 Max GPU, it's comparable to Nvidia laptop GPUs - with the exception of ray tracing. The specs put it roughly between GA106-GA104/AD107-AD106 respectively, and I'd expect it to land there in the general, adequately optimized case.
• throwaway6734 3y ago
  Could it all be research for the new vr headset?
• Const-me 3y ago
  These GPUs aren’t too bad. Theoretically, M2 Max peaks at 14.4 teraflops, and 400 GB/s memory bandwidth. M2 Ultra is too new, but Apple says it’s GPU is 30% faster (probably 18.7 teraflops then?), and that it has 800 GB/s memory bandwidth. The numbers for M2 Ultra are comparable to some powerful GPUs. The theoretical TFlops number is close to Radeon 6900 XT and GeForce 3070, theoretical memory bandwidth is close to Radeon 7900 XT and GeForce 4080. However, good point on the pricing. Apparently, Mac Pro starts at $7k, which is way too expensive for most gamers.
  • madeofpalk 3y ago
    Apple's best GPU is close to a mid-range previous gen nvidia GPU? I'm sure it'll run a 4 year old game on medium settings great! But that's kind of the point, that it doesn't stand a chance against the rest of the industry. Who's supposed to be impressed by getting middling performance on Death Stranding 4 years after it came out? Literal definition of "also ran".
    • hajile 3y ago
      The most used GPU according to Steam survey is the 1650 -- a low-midrange card from 2019.
      • nightski 3y ago
        Yeah and those people aren't going to pay significantly more money for a Mac M2 Max.
        • hedora 3y ago
          I think you'd be surprised. I just checked, and my desktop gaming GPU is only 31% faster than that nvidia, and I'm typing this on a MacBook Pro M2 Max. I bought the laptop and the video card because they are quiet and their price/performance is better than the high end stuff anyway. I just tried running steam on the macbook, and was very disappointed. My Linux gaming desktop will live on for another few years, I guess. edit: I think I got the GPU in ~ 2019, though it was released in 2015.
• dmix 3y ago
  > But then Apple doesn't ship devices with actually powerful GPUs, so it can never compete with the gaming PCs which are far less expensive and far more powerfull graphics-wise. It is still expensive to have to use Windows just so you can game. Or put all the effort into dual booting Linux. Most people just use a Macbook and then get an Xbox/Ps5/Switch/Quest2. For games I can't use on those you can get Shadow PC which let's you play any Windows game ever using better GPUs than I could afford (or more accurately would care to spend) otherwise. https://shadow.tech/ https://shadow.tech/
• afavour 3y ago
  > it can never compete with the gaming PCs which are far less expensive and far more powerfull graphics-wise I don't think Apple is chasing the "dedicated gaming machine" crowd here. They want casual gamers to be able to load up a couple of games on the machine they're buying for non-gaming reasons. I'm exactly one of those people: I rarely play video games these days but when the pandemic hit I ended up installing Boot Camp to play COD:Warzone with friends. It was great (it performed... okay). I've since upgraded to a Silicon-based Mac so the door has closed on that. This toolkit is the means to reopen it. I'm not, and likely won't ever be, in the market for a gaming PC. I can't justify the purchase. > And Apple also doesn't know how to keep relationships with the AAA developers The App Store would beg to differ. I agree that historically they haven't been great at relationships with game developers but they're clearly able to maintain relationships with third party developers when they have the incentive.
  • BryantD 3y ago
    Mobile gaming and PC gaming are somewhat different markets. In particular, mobile game development companies don't have any choice but to work with Apple and Google, whereas AAA PC gaming companies have another outlet already. I like Apple and I like their products but I think if you talk to any sizable mobile developer they'd be able to tell you stories about the difficulties of working with Apple.
    • ericmay 3y ago
      Don't PC gaming companies have only one real outlet (Microsoft) to work with? Not to be confused with distribution channels such as Steam.
      • newaccount74 3y ago
        Are there still games that only come out on PC? I thought most big titles are released on Xbox and Playstation as well?
        • anta40 3y ago
• clint 3y ago
  The high-end gaming market is infintessimal when compared to the casual gaming market. Apple knows this and they are perfectly positioned for high-quality casual games.
• sylens 3y ago
  I thought this was very insightful on his part - yeah this all sounds great, but so what? The Mac Pro is an empty box besides for Apple Silicon and a few fans. What are you going to put in there exactly?
  • EricE 3y ago
    Audio, Video and networking I/O cards - exactly as they outlined in the keynote. Massive bandwidth - that's what the Pro tower unlocks.
• ranger_danger 3y ago
  > how much effort Apple puts into this how much did they actually put into it? as far as I know this is mostly just WINE with an Apple logo on it.
• andsoitis 3y ago
  > Like how does all this Metal, compile-your-shaders, port-your-games stuff even get budgeted, when it's eventually dead on arrival? their Survivor bias of the “control the whole stack” philosophy.
• johnklos 3y ago
  I think this is an example of how ideas about what people really consider important are skewed by marketing. The gaming market is HUGE. How big is the premium, chasing-that-last-quarter-percent-by-spending-twice-the-money market comparatively?
• doctorpangloss 3y ago
  Here's another POV: > Like how does all this Vulkan, compile-your-shaders, port-your-games stuff even get budgeted, when it's eventually dead on arrival? Vulkan today sucks. Nobody writes Vulkan native engines. It's not optimized anywhere. Google has twice tried and failed to make Vulkan a thing - first on Android, where nobody cares to target it, even on the Quest, and the GPUs suck anyway; and second on Stadia, which besides the up front product development cost, it was 3-20x worse performance compared to DirectX for the games that were ports anyway. But I'd rather have Vulkan around and succeed, even if it sucks today. Because having only DirectX, or only DirectX and middlewares for the Switch, iOS and PlayStation, is worse.
• mzs 3y ago
  And every 2-3 years they throw-out whatever that huge investment was for a new incompatible project.
• musicale 3y ago
  > Like how does all this Metal, compile-your-shaders, port-your-games stuff even get budgeted, when it's eventually dead on arrival? I imagine Apple may be testing the waters. They're a trillion-dollar company, with many customers who play games, and they want to see if they can expand Mac gaming beyond iOS ports. Consider that there are a large number of games which could run fine on this sort of technology (including much of my Steam game library that currently only runs on Windows) as well as existing macOS ports whose performance can be improved. For example Final Fantasy XIV already runs on a Crossover/WINE type middleware layer, but at about half the frame rate of the Windows version on comparable hardware. Metal conversion is likely to greatly improve the frame rate, improving the experience for FFXIV players on macOS. If it helps Square Enix deliver a better FFXIV experience on Mac, perhaps they will be more likely to consider Mac ports of some newer games that are currently slated for Windows or consoles. Moreover it's worth noting that Apple did claim that the M1 had comparable raw GPU performance to the PS5 (and Macs also use fast flash storage like the PS5.) So as the M-series evolves (and the PS5 ages) it may become more feasible to port PS5 games to Mac with decent performance. Solid ports of console games could greatly improve the Mac gaming landscape. Also we don't know Apple's product plans. It's likely that they have some GPU improvements in the works. Unified memory architecture may also pay off as more games adopt ray-tracing and procedural textures and geometry.
• deleted 3y ago
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