6 ms·

That begs the question if the invasion of Ukraine was also partially motivated by adding more Russian speaking people to Russia population.

by seren 3y ago

Qiu_Zhanxuan 3y ago
Considering the number of people who died and the number of babies that haven't been born due to the conflict, I'd argue that would have been a counter-argument against engaging into this whole mess. The longer this goes on, the dire the prospects are for the Russian speaking world.
- nostrademons 3y ago
  Peter Zeihan had an interesting take on this, that the Russians moved on Ukraine because their demographic decline means that if they don't invade now, they will forever lose the ability to wage war and hence defend their homeland. The Soviet-era population is rapidly aging out of military service age, and the post-Soviet generation is tiny, and so they will not be able to field a meaningful army if they wait. Basically Ukraine is a last-ditch attempt to save the Russian state. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-r7z0lM5_k&t=42s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-r7z0lM5_k&t=42s Interestingly, he predicted the Ukraine war 5 years before it happened: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkuhWA9GdCo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkuhWA9GdCo
  - hardware2win 3y ago
    >Interestingly, he predicted the Ukraine war 5 years before it happened: But isnt the war ongoing since 2014?
    - nostrademons 3y ago
      In 2014 Russia annexed Crimea, and the world shrugged. The prediction was more stark, that Russia would attempt to march straight across Ukraine and invade Poland and Moldova. So far that appears to be their intent, though they got hung up in eastern Ukraine (see: Russia's demographic decline being too advanced to field an effective army).
      - iamacyborg 3y ago
        I’m not sure you can call the political and economic response to the annexation of Crimea and the shooting down of a civilian craft a shrug.
        George83728 3y ago
        It was basically a shrug; for instance the 2014 invasion wasn't enough to cancel NS-2. Lots of people, Europeans particularly, continued to do business with Russia. In doing so, they were funding the full scale invasion that followed. Only after Feb 2022 did the international community get a bit more serious about sanctioning Russia. Also the shrug at 2014 wasn't unprecedented. The world also shrugged when Russia invaded Georgia 6 years before that in 2008.
        red-iron-pine 3y ago
        Georgia is not in the EU or NATO, and has no real impact on anything in the 1st world. To paraphrase a US President "no dog in that fight"
        cmurf 3y ago
        Georgia and Russia are UN signatories. Invasion is still expressly illegal. If we make excuses, that aggressive wars of conquest to expand borders and subjugate people is sometimes OK - inevitably leads to "the world does not deserve peace". It really is throw the baby out with the bathwater, because the document everyone agreed to while bodies were still rotting, says aggression must be stopped so it doesn't spread. Apparently the past does not effectively speak to the present, that people still think its OK to negotiate with tyranny. Cutting a deal that involves giving up on millions of people just to save your own skin is what damns humanity, and should damn it, straight to hell. Humans volunteering other humans are scum. It's unconscionable to me the degree of apathy involved. The willingness to try to bribe tyranny with other people's land, lives, their fucking children. The potentially fatal flaw of the UN charter isn't the obligation of all members to stop any aggression. It was never even slightly imagined that a founding member, and permanent member of the Security Council, would conduct a war of conquest. And so now the Security Council is rendered useless. Poland has an article 51 right to aid Ukraine in collective defense. They can send ground troops. They can send and launch long range weapons. Moscow is a legitimate military target. We are here because of every inaction that came before.
  - Guthur 3y ago
    Peter has such an obvious bias, and desire to sell his books. He looked positively unhinged on the Joe Rogan podcast. The over simplification of the Ukrainian situation is unreal, it's like we all collectively forgot the last 8-9 years of open civil war.
    - phatfish 3y ago
      Most guests are on the Rogan podcast to sell a book, or shill something. Unless they are one of his inner circle. This guy seems unusual however, probably one of the few used as plausible deniability to prove he doesn't exclusively have right wing conspiracy theorists on, to keep the Spotify money flowing.
      - Guthur 3y ago
        Oh Peter was definitely selling his new book at the time, but his mannerism came across as quite manic. I actually bought one of Peter's books and found it quite enlightening at the time, but then found out that some of it didn't quite like up with reality and he seemed unwilling to adjust some of those view points.
  - Eupraxias 3y ago
    Yes, but I think Peter's point is that they moved because their demographic decline means they have less and less chance of achieving the main goal - securing the eight access points along the Russian border. Ukraine is just "on the way to two of them". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA-jOLF2T4c&t=221 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA-jOLF2T4c&t=221
  - Tommstein 3y ago
    It doesn't take that many people to launch the nukes.
scotty79 3y ago
Well, they don't exactly hide that they are stealing Ukrainian children.
- mcv 3y ago
  They're stealing Ukrainian children, but there have also been plenty of reports of adults going to "filter camps" where apparently they're selected to be turned into Russians and relocated to live somewhere deep in Russia. Stalin did the same, by the way: he loved to displace populations, especially of conquered or rebellious areas, and replace them with Russians. Crimean Tatars, for example, were moved to Siberia so he could Russify Crimea.
  - scotty79 3y ago
    The tragic thing was that Putin, instead of attacking Ukraine could have just opened his country for any Ukrainian citizen that feels Russian enough to want to relocate. He could probably get more people, if that's the goal, than with all this bloodshed and pointless destruction.
    - mcv 3y ago
      I'm not sure that many ethnic Russians who tasted life in other countries, really want to live in Russia. It's not a healthy country. Everything I read about life there sounds incredibly depressing.
      - scotty79 3y ago
        The standard of life in eastern Ukraine wasn't that far off the one in Russia. There were many pro-Russian people there (probably way less now) and given that western Ukraine chose their man and party to run the whole country I can imagine plenty would migrate to Russia given the right push with open laws and some advertisement/propaganda.
        chrysler 3y ago
forinti 3y ago
It would have been better to offer them land and money to cross over the border and live in Russia.
- George83728 3y ago
  They tried that, they are/were giving away tracts of Siberia for free to anybody willing to live on that land, but I doubt there were many takers.
  - mszcz 3y ago
    I wouldn't take it even if they payed me. In a country that does the things it does, even if you could stomach living there, I'm sure if you built something worthwhile there it would certainly be taken from you.
badpun 3y ago
Looks like it, given that Russians army started kidnap Ukrainian children by the thousands from the very beginning of the invasion. These children are then adopted by families deep in Russia, and gradually turned into Russians.

That begs the question if the invasion of Ukraine was also partially motivated by adding more Russian speaking people to Russia population.

by seren 3y ago

That begs the question if the invasion of Ukraine was also partially motivated by adding more Russian speaking people to Russia population.

Qiu_Zhanxuan 3y ago

Considering the number of people who died and the number of babies that haven't been born due to the conflict, I'd argue that would have been a counter-argument against engaging into this whole mess. The longer this goes on, the dire the prospects are for the Russian speaking world.

nostrademons 3y ago
Peter Zeihan had an interesting take on this, that the Russians moved on Ukraine because their demographic decline means that if they don't invade now, they will forever lose the ability to wage war and hence defend their homeland. The Soviet-era population is rapidly aging out of military service age, and the post-Soviet generation is tiny, and so they will not be able to field a meaningful army if they wait. Basically Ukraine is a last-ditch attempt to save the Russian state. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-r7z0lM5_k&t=42s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-r7z0lM5_k&t=42s Interestingly, he predicted the Ukraine war 5 years before it happened: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkuhWA9GdCo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkuhWA9GdCo
- hardware2win 3y ago
  >Interestingly, he predicted the Ukraine war 5 years before it happened: But isnt the war ongoing since 2014?
  - nostrademons 3y ago
    In 2014 Russia annexed Crimea, and the world shrugged. The prediction was more stark, that Russia would attempt to march straight across Ukraine and invade Poland and Moldova. So far that appears to be their intent, though they got hung up in eastern Ukraine (see: Russia's demographic decline being too advanced to field an effective army).
    - iamacyborg 3y ago
      I’m not sure you can call the political and economic response to the annexation of Crimea and the shooting down of a civilian craft a shrug.
      - George83728 3y ago
        It was basically a shrug; for instance the 2014 invasion wasn't enough to cancel NS-2. Lots of people, Europeans particularly, continued to do business with Russia. In doing so, they were funding the full scale invasion that followed. Only after Feb 2022 did the international community get a bit more serious about sanctioning Russia. Also the shrug at 2014 wasn't unprecedented. The world also shrugged when Russia invaded Georgia 6 years before that in 2008.
        red-iron-pine 3y ago
        Georgia is not in the EU or NATO, and has no real impact on anything in the 1st world. To paraphrase a US President "no dog in that fight"
        cmurf 3y ago
        Georgia and Russia are UN signatories. Invasion is still expressly illegal. If we make excuses, that aggressive wars of conquest to expand borders and subjugate people is sometimes OK - inevitably leads to "the world does not deserve peace". It really is throw the baby out with the bathwater, because the document everyone agreed to while bodies were still rotting, says aggression must be stopped so it doesn't spread. Apparently the past does not effectively speak to the present, that people still think its OK to negotiate with tyranny. Cutting a deal that involves giving up on millions of people just to save your own skin is what damns humanity, and should damn it, straight to hell. Humans volunteering other humans are scum. It's unconscionable to me the degree of apathy involved. The willingness to try to bribe tyranny with other people's land, lives, their fucking children. The potentially fatal flaw of the UN charter isn't the obligation of all members to stop any aggression. It was never even slightly imagined that a founding member, and permanent member of the Security Council, would conduct a war of conquest. And so now the Security Council is rendered useless. Poland has an article 51 right to aid Ukraine in collective defense. They can send ground troops. They can send and launch long range weapons. Moscow is a legitimate military target. We are here because of every inaction that came before.
- Guthur 3y ago
  Peter has such an obvious bias, and desire to sell his books. He looked positively unhinged on the Joe Rogan podcast. The over simplification of the Ukrainian situation is unreal, it's like we all collectively forgot the last 8-9 years of open civil war.
  - phatfish 3y ago
    Most guests are on the Rogan podcast to sell a book, or shill something. Unless they are one of his inner circle. This guy seems unusual however, probably one of the few used as plausible deniability to prove he doesn't exclusively have right wing conspiracy theorists on, to keep the Spotify money flowing.
    - Guthur 3y ago
      Oh Peter was definitely selling his new book at the time, but his mannerism came across as quite manic. I actually bought one of Peter's books and found it quite enlightening at the time, but then found out that some of it didn't quite like up with reality and he seemed unwilling to adjust some of those view points.
- Eupraxias 3y ago
  Yes, but I think Peter's point is that they moved because their demographic decline means they have less and less chance of achieving the main goal - securing the eight access points along the Russian border. Ukraine is just "on the way to two of them". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA-jOLF2T4c&t=221 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA-jOLF2T4c&t=221
- Tommstein 3y ago
  It doesn't take that many people to launch the nukes.

scotty79 3y ago

Well, they don't exactly hide that they are stealing Ukrainian children.

mcv 3y ago
They're stealing Ukrainian children, but there have also been plenty of reports of adults going to "filter camps" where apparently they're selected to be turned into Russians and relocated to live somewhere deep in Russia. Stalin did the same, by the way: he loved to displace populations, especially of conquered or rebellious areas, and replace them with Russians. Crimean Tatars, for example, were moved to Siberia so he could Russify Crimea.
- scotty79 3y ago
  The tragic thing was that Putin, instead of attacking Ukraine could have just opened his country for any Ukrainian citizen that feels Russian enough to want to relocate. He could probably get more people, if that's the goal, than with all this bloodshed and pointless destruction.
  - mcv 3y ago
    I'm not sure that many ethnic Russians who tasted life in other countries, really want to live in Russia. It's not a healthy country. Everything I read about life there sounds incredibly depressing.
    - scotty79 3y ago
      The standard of life in eastern Ukraine wasn't that far off the one in Russia. There were many pro-Russian people there (probably way less now) and given that western Ukraine chose their man and party to run the whole country I can imagine plenty would migrate to Russia given the right push with open laws and some advertisement/propaganda.
      - chrysler 3y ago

forinti 3y ago

It would have been better to offer them land and money to cross over the border and live in Russia.

George83728 3y ago
They tried that, they are/were giving away tracts of Siberia for free to anybody willing to live on that land, but I doubt there were many takers.
- mszcz 3y ago
  I wouldn't take it even if they payed me. In a country that does the things it does, even if you could stomach living there, I'm sure if you built something worthwhile there it would certainly be taken from you.

badpun 3y ago

Looks like it, given that Russians army started kidnap Ukrainian children by the thousands from the very beginning of the invasion. These children are then adopted by families deep in Russia, and gradually turned into Russians.