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Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)
- prometheus76 3y agoMimetic Theory, developed by Rene Girard, is a good entry point for modern people to get some insight into why this practice was (and still is in some places) so common.
- AllegedAlec 3y agoTurns out that Cato the Censor was right.
- jwestbury 3y agoCarthago delenda est!
- miroljub 3y ago[flagged]
- mihaic 3y agoVery strange to see US-style political discourse applied to the ancients. It really is true that as we do one thing we do all things.
- miroljub 3y agoThe destruction of Cartagena is the first known example of purposeful destruction of the whole civilization. The USA and the annihilation of native american civilizations came many centuries later.
- ffgjgf1 3y agoNo it’s not. It’s a bit more documented than some previous examples but we have written evidence for this occurring in the middle east and archeological evidence that would suggest it in many other places..
- AlbertCory 3y agoMaybe read a book on Genghis Khan
- AlgorithmicTime 3y agoJust off the top of my head... Assyria.
- csomar 3y agoThere are still significant artifacts from Carthage and the city rose back very quickly. My guess is that the same-same of war happened: The elite were killed but the rest of the population was spared. Rome probably spread this rhetoric to embolden its image. Let's just say this was a different time.
- AllegedAlec 3y ago> No, Cato was not right. He was a racist, war criminal and very corrupt politician. Even if he was all of that, which I'd dispute or at least question, that doesn't mean he wasn't right
- ffgjgf1 3y ago> which I'd dispute or at least question, He wanted to destroy and almost exterminate/enslave a massive city for much more practical reasons than stopping child sacrifice (which was a side note at best..). How could you question that?
- AllegedAlec 3y agoHe's accused of being three things and give evidence of one of his policies as a reason. For which of those, and how that policy make him that?
- ffgjgf1 3y agoIm sorry? For instance Plutarch and Livy described one of the campaigns he lead in Spain. Every successful military commander in ancient Rome was a war criminal by modern standards. That not a particularly interesting statement considering how obvious it is but it’s not like anyone could disagree with it. To be fair Cato might have been excessively cruel even by Roman standards since because he did coin this phrase https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellum_se_ipsum_alet https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellum_se_ipsum_alet But let’s not go that far…
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- ffgjgf1 3y ago> Eradicating the whole civilization because of some obscure practice that most of the civilizations at the time practised to some extent? That wasn’t even close to the to being the reason or even one of the reasons why they did that. > He was a racist, war criminal and very corrupt politician. Weren’t they all? You couldn’t be a military leader without being a war criminal or a politician without being corrupt by modern standards. That wasn’t really possible in the ancient world.. Feigning shock or disgust at ancient practices might be fun but it’s pretty futile..
- xdennis 3y agoWhy was he a racist? The Carthaginians weren't very different from the Romans.
- csomar 3y agoRome declared war on Carthage when it tried to expand West (Modern day Algeria). Carthage was warned about this but decided to try its' hand. Let's just say that the Roman at the time were not Chamberlain.
- eropple 3y agoAbout what? Romans practiced ritual human killing, too. They acted very haughty about others doing it, but they buried people under a temple when Hannibal whomped them at Cannae and they very happily and publicly performed ritual killings of prisoners of war during triumphs. Cato thought that was fine--why then, not, Roma delenda est? Another example that comes to mind: the xōchiyāōyōtl in Mexico did involve human sacrifice, and it even was a nontrivial ramp-up in the act from pre-Mexica societies. Such acts then used in part to legitimate oppressive activity by European colonizers. They needed, after all, to be civilized. But contemporaneously Christopher Columbus himself, the guy who's got pictures in American government buildings, instituted "bring us impossible amounts of gold every year or we chop off your hands" and "test your swords' sharpness by hacking off children's legs" when lording over the Taino. This is not an incongruity that can be reconciled, it must be understood and accepted, and the idea of "taking sides" in this flippant way for a conflict two thousand years old is deeply, deeply foolish.
- LatteLazy 3y agoI am surprised this is a big deal, I thought it was well accepted. (Other) Phoenicians did it, Romans practised human (not sure about child) sacrifice and I thought the Carthaginians themselves recorded doing it? Humans are pretty crazy and we shouldn't pretend otherwise...
- AmericanChopper 3y agoNot much of anything the Carthaginians recorded survived. Their civilisation was destroyed as thoroughly as possible, and the only proper accounts of it are Roman and Greek. So nearly everything about Carthaginian history is naturally controversial for that reason.
- George83728 3y ago> Their civilisation was destroyed as thoroughly as possible Ehh, we still remember they exist. How many other civilizations have been so thoroughly eradicated that we don't even remember them at all?
- mistrial9 3y agomany! mostly nature-friendly ones lacking concrete perhaps?
- ffgjgf1 3y ago> was destroyed as thoroughly as possible, and the only proper accounts of it are Roman and Greek. Physical destruction/genocide wasn’t really necessarily for that. Texts written on papyrus just don’t last very long. Nothing survives from the Etruscans either and the Roman never actively suppressed their culture as far as we know. People just stopped speaking the language and texts were no longer copied. We know so much about many middle eastern civilizations exclusively because they were using clay tablets and liked making inscriptions on rocks. Had they used more perishable materials we’d know significantly less about them than the Carthaginians.
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- cal85 3y agoCan anyone see a date on this post? Is it recent? This 2014 Guardian article seems to report a very similar revelation: https://amp.theguardian.com/science/2014/jan/21/carthaginians-sacrificed-own-children-study https://amp.theguardian.com/science/2014/jan/21/carthaginian...
- oofnik 3y agoChild sacrifice hooks into some very deep and dark aspects of human psychology that we have yet to unpack. There is a reason that this practice crops up in various civilizations seemingly independently, and it is not a pretty one - at least not by contemporary moral sensibilities. It is impossible to understand the biblical narrative of the binding of Isaac, for example, without addressing the context in which such a narrative was popularized and eventually codified into a sacred text.
- ffgjgf1 3y agoAbandoning/exposing infants (especially girls) was very widespread in the ancient word. It’s possible that ‘sacrifice’ was just a way to justify it through some ritual. This didn’t really change untill the chirch started equating it with murder.
- bombolo 3y agoAnd until they started to take care of the unwanted ones.
- c00lio 3y agoDisgust against child sacrifice and most human sacrifice was a Roman sensibility, long before there was any church or christianity.
- ffgjgf1 3y agoYeah, I’m talking about infanticide specifically in that case.
- AlbertCory 3y agoCarthāgō dēlenda est https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthago_delenda_est https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthago_delenda_est
- baryphonic 3y agoThe Romans claimed this about themselves, but I'm not sure they're completely credible, at least about human sacrifice. The Roman Triumphal parade, for instance, included marching captured prisoners of war (often numbering in thousands), who would be led through the triumphal route up to the Temple of Jupiter Optimus Maximus. There, the prisoners would be executed. The Romans may have claimed that they weren't committing human sacrifice, but this seems hard to believe, given that the soldiers were killed on the grounds of the temple of their chief god, literally honored with the title "best and greatest." On the whole, the Romans were quite enlightened compared to the other brutal civilizations of the ancient world, being governed more by law than superstition, but they still had these quirks that wouldn't be eradicated till Christianity replaced the state religion.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- dumpsterdiver 3y ago[flagged]
- thworp 3y ago> It is interesting that civilizations have engaged in ritual sacrifice. The question is why? A few thoughts: - Sacrifice and civilization are closely related. To live in a society you have to sacrifice some autonomy, some of your (and your family's) goals and some resources. Further, to prepare for the future you have to make a sacrifice in the present. Many people even sacrifice their present selves for their future (not born yet) offspring. It is only logical (if a bit esoteric) then, to think that making a bigger sacrifice will transmute into bigger positives. - Christianity (not that familiar with Judaism or Islam) was revolutionary because Jesus already made the ultimate sacrifice, essentially freeing everyone from the obligation. - If one takes a sober view, the history of ritual sacrifices has not ended (and probably never will). Mao was willing to sacrifice millions to bring about Communism (read: Paradise / heaven on earth). Similarly for the Bolsheviks, Nazis, Red Khmer, Robespierre etc. They all explicitly stated in their own writing that the deaths were a worthwhile sacrifice. That is the psychopathic variant of ritual sacrifice, slaughtering a goat to Zeus looks a lot more tame and rational in comparison, no?
- dumpsterdiver 3y agoIt leaves a bad taste in my mouth bringing it back around to politics (I wish I lived in a world where I didn't have anything to say about it), but cancel culture has shown that people still love to gather 'round for a good old fashioned sacrifice.
- aaomidi 3y agoWe sacrifice millions every year because we 1. Don’t want to change our reliance on cars 2. Don’t want to address hunger and houselessness. 3. We are doing basically nothing about global warming. A lot of countries COVID strategy was effectively human sacrifice too. This practice never ended.
- gettodachoppa 3y ago[flagged]
- the_mitsuhiko 3y ago> My growing distrust of soft sciences over the past few years means that this article did not move the needle in me to believe Carthage practiced child sacrifice, not one millimeter. There is a trove of independent historic stories and tales about child sacrifice in Carthage from Plutarch, Plato and even the Bible. In some sense I think it would more obvious than not to assume that child sacrifice did take place.
- lelanthran 3y ago> There is a trove of independent historic stories and tales about child sacrifice in Carthage from Plutarch, Plato and even the Bible. So? Historic stories and tales from a time when those things weren't written down but handed orally from generation to generation are generally far removed from the truth. After all, even in an age where almost everything is written down we still battle to separate baseless accusations from substantiated facts.
- dan-robertson 3y agoThe bible was initially an oral tradition but I’m pretty sure Plutarch and Plato were written down from the start.
- fastball 3y agoYes, but Plato and Plutarch weren't eyewitnesses, they were recording the claims of others, i.e. still rooted in oral histories.
- ffgjgf1 3y agoOr texts written by others. I’m sure there were way more punic or greek sources written down by eyewitness than we have now (by several magnitudes)
- antman 3y agoI remember reading an analysis of a script written during the wars of Carthage with Rome which had this incredible meaning: "Stop adopting slave children to sacrifice them so that we have a favorable outcome, it needs to be your actual children". Most if not all Mediterranean civilizations practiced child sacrifice, for Minoans the keywords for those with access to scientific papers is "The Southern House of Knossos" and ofcourse the 14 youths being sent each year to the Minotaur Most Ministries of culture of the respective countries have not financed further research to this arguably interesting topic
- tamarru 3y agoGiven the paucity of Punic texts that we possess, I'd be surprised to learn that this script of which you speak is in any language other than Latin. Most, if not all civilizations, practice child sacrifice to this day. It's called war, and it's practiced to such a ritualistic, feverish pitch that it may as well be a public festival glorifying death and national identity. The "proof" that the Carthaginians, Canaanites, and Bronze Age Minoans practiced child sacrifice begs a misanthropic perspective from the start. While our modern society may think nothing of animals, and even reject the notion that they possess a soul, this was certainly not the case for the Etruscans or Canaanites. We have ample evidence, in the case of Etruria, that children who died prematurely were embalmed and buried with the remains of household pets, in the hope that the souls of both the animals and the children would be enticed to reincarnate in the presence of their living loved ones again. Being as close to residential districts as they were, these Carthaginian "tophets" served the same purpose--directing the souls of those who perished to return in new forms. The concept that these children were murdered to appease barbarous, foreign gods exposes a level of ignorance and anti-Semiticism that is unfortunately altogether too familiar in the modern-day. As for the "Southern House of Knossos", the keyword here is "excarnation" and is an alternative method of mummification.
- florinutz 3y ago[dead]
- celtoid 3y agoChild sacrifice was part of Semitic culture. The story of Issac and Jacob (Ishmael and Jacob in the Arab scriptures) teaching against the practice of child sacrifice is pretty good evidence that it was an old practice and that Hebrew and Arab cultures were trying to move on from it. Phoenicians, also Semitic, never moved on from the practice. I don't understand why it's so controversial.
- vintermann 3y agoI think you do understand why "our ancestors practiced child sacrifice" is controversial when you think about it
- atlantic 3y ago[flagged]
- jonathanlb 3y agoI'm drawing a blank here, but what do you mean "state-sanctioned castration"? Do you have examples? The only thing I can think of is the chemical castration that is done to sex offenders or to treat cancer, but for the most part, this is done to adults, and not children. Or are you referring to something else that would affect children of both sexes?
- apocalypstyx 3y agoThey are disingenuously referencing trans affirmative care.
- handsaway 3y agoAs the other poster mentioned they're referencing treatment of trans children. They are also factually incorrect as surgical intervention is not and has never been part of the recommended treatment for children. As such their intentions are either misinformed or malicious.
- druidish 3y agoMore controversially, note that Phoenicia invented the alphabet, had the first maritime global trade empire, colonized Europe in the 13th century BC, and Punic dynasties eventually sat on the Roman throne despite losing the Punic wars ostensibly, with one such Severan emperor dismantling the Pantheon of Jupiter. You can also trace Byzantine dynasties back eastward and later empires too have this connection through dynasties like the Komnenos. So those conspiracy theories claiming Jewish world domination are all rather quaint when you consider that Israel was just a backwater in the classical era and antiquity and it was actually Phoenician merchants who were kingmakers in Babylon and Egypt (due to their control of the Cedars of the Gods which were crucial lumber products for shipbuilding) and would later snowball with their holdings and power as time progressed, or maybe they conveniently fell into obscurity :^)
- csomar 3y ago> So those conspiracy theories claiming Jewish world domination are all rather quaint when you consider that Israel was just a backwater You realize Phoenicia and Israel are neighbors and two very small countries? The distance from Tel Aviv to Beirut is only 200Km. They are practically the same people except at some point in history they diverged in religion and became hostile to one another. Maybe if they kept sacrificing their children then... okay, I'll see myself out.
- justrealist 3y ago> The distance from Tel Aviv to Beirut is only 200Km There have been genetically and culturally distinct populations that maintained their segregation over far smaller distances than this.
- justrealist 3y agoGuys the Ashkenazim maintained about 90% genetic isolation for about 1,000 years and they literally lived in cities a couple dozen meters from other Europeans. I'm not wrong.
- druidish 3y ago
- ragazzina 3y agoThis was the base for Isaac Asimov's short story The Dead Past.
- goda90 3y agoI want to make a plug for the Fall of Civilizations podcast. Last month was the Carthage episode. Here's the audio version(video version hasn't been released yet): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mqX9twdyYo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mqX9twdyYo
- Tagbert 3y agoThat is such a well done podcast and give a detailed look at a series of cultures as they grew, prospered, and faded. Fascinating stuff.
- janandonly 3y agoI love that podcast. Too bad there are only a few episodes, but I get it, if you make everything yourself, you can only be this fast.
- Eumenes 3y agoDan Carlin has an excellent podcast on Carthage as well: https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-punic-nightmares-series/ https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-punic-nig...
- debacle 3y agoHumans are funny. We pretend (a lot) to be more civilized than we are. Even the best of us falls far short of the ideal. We like to believe we're very far from human sacrifice, tyranny, the Triumphs of Rome, etc. We're very much not.
- cseleborg 3y agoIn many cases, we should look at a civilization's institutions rather than at its individuals to judge its degree of "advancement". Institutions are often much closer to the ideals of a society than its people. For example, in many countries, people are quick to suspect someone, whereas the judicial system sees a defendant as innocent until proven guilty. (Imperfectly, of course, but better than what people do.) (Edit: typo)
- Animats 3y agoWas this for religious reasons, or for quality control?
- transducers 3y agoTypically the gods did not look favorably on inferior product being placed on the alter. Even King Kong demands the hottest young babe in the tribe, does he not? Did anyone ever “sacrifice” hoary old men or women to gods? (Only in passage of kingship did humans ritually kille the elder males.) So “religious” thinking would tend to demand something dear. This is inline with an inherent bug in human psyche — a false thought - that God wants something from us and is prone to making unreasonable demands from humanity.
- justin66 3y ago> Typically the gods did not look favorably on inferior product being placed on the alter. I bet "the gods" were especially apt to take that attitude in the cultures where people ate the sacrifice afterwards.
- EdwardDiego 3y ago“Strictly speaking, you see, it’s prayers that go up to the gods,” said the priest doubtfully. “As I understand it,” said Moist, “the gift of sausages are offered to Offler by being fried, yes? And the spirit of the sausages ascends unto Offler by means of the smell? And then you eat the sausages?” “Ah, no. Not exactly. Not at all,” said the young priest, who knew this one. “It might look like that to the uninitiated, but, as you say, the true sausagidity goes straight to Offler. He, of course, eats the spirit of the sausages. We eat the mere earthly shell, which believe me turns to dust and ashes in our mouths.” “That would explain why the smell of sausages is always better than the actual sausage, then?” said Moist. “I’ve often noticed that.” The priest was impressed. “Are you a theologian, sir?”
- transducers 3y agoSome may discern the taint of dualism in this (very amusing) dialogue. https://radhesiam.com/bhagavadgita-quotes/bhagavad-gita-9-24/ https://radhesiam.com/bhagavadgita-quotes/bhagavad-gita-9-24... There is this possibility to consider. Another Muslim Saint, Junaid (R), said “Water takes the color of the cup it is poured in”. The Prophet (SAWS) said “There is no I but Allah”. You can always fashion a new cup to suit your contingent condition. But the spirit of Sacrifice, and the Enjoying of the pleasures is eternal and immutable. Is it possible that ritual sacrifice, however distorted by the understanding of ancient people, is an intrinsic impetus of the conscious knowing, feeling, desiring (and at times afflicted) being known as Human, guiding us to detachment so that we may too enjoy without attachment, like God.
- amelius 3y agoWhich is more likely: ancient people sacificing their children, or ancient writers wanting to mess with future historians or simply writing horror?
- getmeinrn 3y agoThey mention it was documented by the Greeks & Romans, but was dismissed at the time as politically motivated slander. Those records plus physical evidence give it more weight, so I say the former is more likely.
- MagicMoonlight 3y agoThe same people who wrote about mythical creatures, mythical cities, mythical wars and all kinds of propaganda and made up stories...
- getmeinrn 3y agoYes that's why it being supported by physical evidence, which it appears to be, is so important.
- oneshtein 3y ago[flagged]
- cultofmetatron 3y agogotta give baal his due! /s
- Ginden 3y agoHistory as social science was basically invented between 19th and 20th century. Ancient writers generally had agenda and they happily filled missing pieces with ideologically-fueled speculation.
- mistrial9 3y ago
- pkphilip 3y agoChild and human sacrifices were surprisingly common across the world. Many countries had to pass special laws to ban these practices - but it hasn't yet been rooted out.
- _a_a_a_ 3y agoPerhaps you could give some examples of where it still occurs, having not been rooted out. I'd be very interested as I'm not aware of any.
- ayoisaiah 3y agoStill happens quite a lot here in Nigeria and many parts of Africa
- segoooonds 3y agoAlso hasn't been completely rooted out in India. For example: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-39176570 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-39176570
- pkphilip 3y agoThis is only from India but you can see such instances in Africa as well: 10-Year-Old Boy Killed By His Own Family in a Human Sacrifice Ritual There has been over 103 such ritualistic sacrifices in the 2014-2021 period: https://www.vice.com/en/article/7kx9pe/10-year-old-boy-human-sacrifice-india https://www.vice.com/en/article/7kx9pe/10-year-old-boy-human... https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/kolkata/baby-sacrifice-bid-at-kamakhya-foiled/articleshow/22471.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/kolkata/baby-sacrif... There is also adult human sacrifices: There are actually temnples in India dedicated to human sacrifice. Kamakhya temple in Assam, India is infamous for that: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1908706.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1908706.stm There was a case from 2019 where a woman was sacrificed in this temple: https://news.abplive.com/crime/assam-human-sacrifice-kamakhya-temple-most-shocking-crime-india-murder-headless-body-1594247 https://news.abplive.com/crime/assam-human-sacrifice-kamakhy... This is from April 2023. Five arrested over human sacrifice at Indian temple https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/05/indian-police-arrest-five-men-accused-of-human-sacrifice https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/05/indian-police-... https://www.deccanherald.com/national/interactive-human-sacrifices-in-india-over-the-years-1154106.html https://www.deccanherald.com/national/interactive-human-sacr...
- MagicMoonlight 3y agoThere's absolutely no way this is true. In a time where most of your children die of disease, you aren't going to just kill your healthy children for the comedy value. People do a lot of fucked up shit but nobody kills their own children. Other people's children sure. Giving children to the temple so that they'll become exhaulted priests sure. But they would never beat their own children to death because someone said it's a fun idea. This is one of those moments like when historians say the royal poo wiper is the most prestigious role in court. If historians found modern texts they would think "ass kissing" is the highest ranking role in the country and that people who get selected to that role have all the power and influence.
- Detrytus 3y ago> In a time where most of your children die of disease, you aren't going to just kill your healthy children for the comedy value. On the other hand, in a time when there is no contraception available you kind of expect to have up to a dozen children over your lifetime. Sacrificing one of them seems easier that if they were the only child.
- local_crmdgeon 3y agoOne of the great gifts of the Abrahamic religions was the end of human sacrifice. Here's a fantastic graph of sacrifice over time: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjEVivqXwAAr3kj https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjEVivqXwAAr3kj
- thunkle 3y ago404
- black_13 3y ago[dead]
- kornhole 3y agoGreat timing on empires who sacrifice children. Today this article about Instagram facilitating child sex trafficking was released. https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/instagram-facilitates-vast-pedophile-network-on-its-platform-bombshell-report-finds/ https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/instagram-facilitates-vast... Mel Gibson is about to release a four part documentary about child sex trafficking and sacrifice. I expect to see a bunch of reminders of how Mel is antisemitic and such to gatekeep people from watching it.
- nh23423fefe 3y agosomething something groomers?
- chestertn 3y agoThat part about Gibson doing a documentary is not true. Just Google it.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]