7 ms·

When I worked front desk, it was made known that I was indispensable. We had a storm with law enforcement urging folks to stay home, and I took two buses then s

When I worked front desk, it was made known that I was indispensable. We had a storm with law enforcement urging folks to stay home, and I took two buses then slogged through a flood to get into work. I caught a cold, and my supervisor said to come in unless I was running a fever, and I'd need a doctor's note for more. When I announced I had bed bugs, they were OK with an open-ended leave though! Now a doctor's note seems to be a reasonable ask, but have you ever tried to get one? Start with limited transportation and insurance, then get into the doctor's office and ask. I think I've made 3-4 requests and at least two, I was refused any excuse. I got 24 hours off in another case. Your mileage may vary: "I work at a buffet and my typhoid may be unwelcome" could be a compelling case. But you still took two buses and showed up at the doctor's office. Don't even think about a telemed alternative. They'll render their letter worthless with disclaimers, because the HCP didn't meet or examine you in any meaningful way.

genocidicbunny 3y ago
My PCP hated these sorts of policies, so if you needed a 'doctors note' from him, he would put down whatever you wanted. No work for a week and then no heavy lifting for a month after? Sure. Need to sleep in and start work no earlier than 11am? Sure! He'd write these out as a prescription too, which was helpful in shutting up HR after.
- alistairSH 3y ago
  I’ve seen the same. That’s the way to do it, IMO. Employer doesn’t trust employees to use sick leave appropriately, they should pay the price. Or we could just legislate some sanity. 10 days sick and 15 days holiday minimum nationally. But that would make too much sense.
  - cameronh90 3y ago
    Sick days shouldn't be countable except in extreme cases. If someone is unfortunate enough to get something that requires extended time off work, losing income shouldn't be a worry. What is needed is a national insurance scheme that pays your salary when sick beyond some minimum that your employer has to cover.
    - alistairSH 3y ago
      Totally agree. I was just thinking baby steps towards something reasonable.
      - arcbyte 3y ago
        How could it possibly be reasonable?
        alistairSH 3y ago
        How could codified leave be reasonable? I’m not sure what you’re asking?
    - hgsgm 3y ago
      I think if you are out 2 weeks, requiring some official documentation is reasonable.
      - genocidicbunny 3y ago
        I think in most circumstances, 2 weeks illness would qualify as some level of 'extreme' -- that's rarely something not serious. So you and the parent are probably in agreement.
        genewitch 3y ago
        "The Crud", which is a southern US ailment that lasts weeks, it makes you cough and snotty, and generally lethargic. It isn't awful, but when you feel it coming on you're in for at least 2-3 weeks. It isn't serious, at all. It's just similar to or a cold that generally presents in the warm months. Some jobs coughing and whatnot is frowned upon.
        bandyaboot 3y ago
        I live in the northern part of the US and it’s not uncommon for people to refer to common viral infections as crud or “feeling cruddy” regardless of what time of year it occurs. But, it’s not taken to mean anything more than another way of saying you have a cold. Though I kind of understand because the combination of hot weather and cold symptoms just makes it feel worse.
- batch12 3y ago
  I have seen companies, that when confronted by this, that will send the employee to a physician vetted by the company to confirm the need for accommodation.
  - nickpeterson 3y ago
    In the end it isn’t about the loss of money, it’s the loss of power. An agreeable doctor giving you reasonable time off to mend feels like letting employees claw back power. It’s the same with work from home policies, they’re not interested in performance, it’s control.
    - kortilla 3y ago
      It’s really not. It’s money. A lost employee that you still have to pay for is a huge expense. Most companies costs are dominated by labor costs so anything that could be gamed there that would drive up that cost is scrutinized significantly.
      - djbusby 3y ago
        So? Aren't these companies "good at business"? They should be able to plan around it - if they are in fact good at business. Many of these fast food places have executives whos monthly compensation exceeds the YEARLY compensation of these front-line employees. Its for sure not a money problem - it's an allocation problem.
        dietr1ch 3y ago
        Being good at business means that they know where they can easily push and get away with it to get more money in the long run. Making it unreasonable hard to take time off will end up in fewer time off over time, and it only takes a couple words from management.
        kortilla 3y ago
        Being good at business means ensuring you’re not being ripped off on labor costs. We’ve come full circle.
hotpotamus 3y ago
I had a friend who ran into this from time to time. I was able to help him because I own a printer.
haldujai 3y ago
I loathed these visits when I had to do primary care. I understand the patient's position and don't hold that against them but can we just decide as a society to let people take occasional sick days and stop wasting everyone's time with short-term sick notes, especially as these requirements disproportionately affect low SES individuals. I'm sure someone's studied it but I would confidently bet this song and dance costs society more than the supposed malingering it is preventing. > Now a doctor's note seems to be a reasonable ask, but have you ever tried to get one? Start with limited transportation and insurance, then get into the doctor's office and ask. I think I've made 3-4 requests and at least two, I was refused any excuse. Is this common? I perform procedures sometimes and most of the things I do require no time off / limitations so I don't get asked a lot but I've been noticing patients seem increasingly awkward when asking for a sick note and go into a long story trying to justify the request. Haven't been sure why as I sure as shit wouldn't want to work the day after I had a biopsy but your experience provides some context. Personally, I have an extremely low threshold to write a 2-3 day note if someone wants one which is how I was taught in medical school, I assumed this was how most physicians practiced. Unless someone is a frequent flier asking for sick notes every week (without an appropriate reason) I wonder where the physician hesitancy is coming from, it's incredibly easy to medicolegally justify a short leave < 7 days. Edit: Checked Cochrane out of curiosity and was surprised to see they had a review on this topic with (unsurprisingly) "very low certainty" evidence. For self-certification < 3 days 2 studies reported an increase in work time lost of 0.54 and 1.38 days/person-year. On the other hand increasing self-certification to 50 days or 1 year had decreased impact on time off (granted it seems they only counted days off due to longer absences). Even if these numbers are accurate for < 3 days (ignoring all the methodological flaws pointed out in the Cochrane review) this is already such a minuscule effect before factoring in the increased spread of illness, economic impact and burden on the system it's barely worth discussing. Honestly, even assuming the worst that this is malingering for 1 day/year I feel like we're better off as a society just calling it a "wellness day" and moving on. https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD013098.pub2/abstract https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD...
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  >can we just decide as a society to let people take occasional sick days and stop wasting everyone's time with short-term sick notes, I see it as the few arseholes ruining the system for everyone. That is to say, there's that arsehole who takes leave by lying about having a flu or typhoid or dysentery or whatever else and he ends up costing the company too much in wasted time and pay. So now everyone has to get a note from someone who will insure their reason for taking leave. Which is to say, don't blame the doctors nor the honest patients and workers. Blame the few arseholes that ruin everything for the rest of us.
plagiarist 3y ago
A doctor's note is not a reasonable ask, actually. It is actually unreasonable that work has so few days off available and that you need to take further of your own time to see a medical professional to give you permission to stay at home while you are ill.
- grugagag 3y ago
  Also getting a doctors note while sick is hard if you’re feeling really unwell plus a doctors visit will cost you money if you don’t have insurance, and it will cost time too. For serios illness that requires a visit to the doctor is okay, probably not hard to obtain if already seeing a doctor.
  - genocidicbunny 3y ago
    Not to mention that often, the illness is something where just some bed rest and relaxation for a day or two is all that's needed, so not much the doctor can really do, but by coming in you've potentially exposed a lot of other people to your disease.
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  Furthermore, what's a doctor going to do for my cold or flu? I'd rather take the opportunity to drop by the pharmacy for some cough drops, fruit juice, and replace the battery in my thermometer. Lest we forget, though, Mary Mallon was an asymptomatic carrier who didn't feel sick, needed to work, and wasn't about to call in sick. In fact she defied forcible and controversial quarantine measures. So what's an asymptomatic carrier to do in 2023? Wear a mask?
egberts1 3y ago
This is the part where you SHOULD see a company nurse (or even HR) in-person to bypass the doctor's note, given the extreme transportation usage. This way, you made due diligence and cannot be legally fired.
dragonwriter 3y ago
> Now a doctor's note seems to be a reasonable ask, but have you ever tried to get one? Yes. Just needed one, and got it via a telemedicine visit (also got advised to take more time off than I would have if I didn’t have to get a doctor's note for how long I had already been off.) Whether this is an option depends, of course, on whether either your insurance or your primary care medical group offers telemedicine visits. > Don't even think about a telemed alternative. They'll render their letter worthless with disclaimers, because the HCP didn't meet or examine you in any meaningful way. I literally just did this (as described above), the note doesn’t have any disclaimers at all except that the return to work was contingent on both the specified time elapsing and symptoms being gone.
- edrxty 3y ago
  I deeply love that doctors, tired with this bullshit wasting their time and exposing them to all manner of unnecessary pathogens, have arrived at the solution of making it well known that they will demand excessive time off if you require your employees to get notes. I always get a lot of enjoyment out of people finding creative ways of weaponizing corporate fear of liability in order to make them behave.
thatfrenchguy 3y ago
> Now a doctor's note seems to be a reasonable ask Trust is a reasonable ask. Shocked me at first when my employer in the US, coming from France where doctor's notes are mandatory, didn't give a fuck because they trusted me.
- Leherenn 3y ago
  I guess the difference is that in the US you can just fire someone if you suspect them of breaking your trust, whereas in France you would need a long process and paper trail with medium confidence of actually being able to go through.
WirelessGigabit 3y ago
Belgium still has policies in place. Now, you do get paid for sick days, but still, my PCP in Belgium did one thing from 9am to 2pm. Write doctor's notes for overzealous employers.
kgwxd 3y ago
If work ever asked me for a doctors note I’d just risk calling their bluff. Not worth it. Schools do it too, never a consequence for anyone I’ve known that just simply didn’t get one, students and workers alike.
hedora 3y ago
This complaint is so strange. I guess an HCP is some terrible American insurance thing I haven't heard of yet? (I believe you, I just haven't encountered this.) Out here in California, I can't set foot near a doctor's office or conclude a telemedicine without being offered a machine-generated note. Worst case, I could probably just print out the follow up emails from my provider's web page documenting the visit, and my employer would accept that.

genocidicbunny 3y ago

My PCP hated these sorts of policies, so if you needed a 'doctors note' from him, he would put down whatever you wanted. No work for a week and then no heavy lifting for a month after? Sure. Need to sleep in and start work no earlier than 11am? Sure! He'd write these out as a prescription too, which was helpful in shutting up HR after.

alistairSH 3y ago
I’ve seen the same. That’s the way to do it, IMO. Employer doesn’t trust employees to use sick leave appropriately, they should pay the price. Or we could just legislate some sanity. 10 days sick and 15 days holiday minimum nationally. But that would make too much sense.
- cameronh90 3y ago
  Sick days shouldn't be countable except in extreme cases. If someone is unfortunate enough to get something that requires extended time off work, losing income shouldn't be a worry. What is needed is a national insurance scheme that pays your salary when sick beyond some minimum that your employer has to cover.
  - alistairSH 3y ago
    Totally agree. I was just thinking baby steps towards something reasonable.
    - arcbyte 3y ago
      How could it possibly be reasonable?
      - alistairSH 3y ago
        How could codified leave be reasonable? I’m not sure what you’re asking?
  - hgsgm 3y ago
    I think if you are out 2 weeks, requiring some official documentation is reasonable.
    - genocidicbunny 3y ago
      I think in most circumstances, 2 weeks illness would qualify as some level of 'extreme' -- that's rarely something not serious. So you and the parent are probably in agreement.
      - genewitch 3y ago
        "The Crud", which is a southern US ailment that lasts weeks, it makes you cough and snotty, and generally lethargic. It isn't awful, but when you feel it coming on you're in for at least 2-3 weeks. It isn't serious, at all. It's just similar to or a cold that generally presents in the warm months. Some jobs coughing and whatnot is frowned upon.
        bandyaboot 3y ago
        I live in the northern part of the US and it’s not uncommon for people to refer to common viral infections as crud or “feeling cruddy” regardless of what time of year it occurs. But, it’s not taken to mean anything more than another way of saying you have a cold. Though I kind of understand because the combination of hot weather and cold symptoms just makes it feel worse.
batch12 3y ago
I have seen companies, that when confronted by this, that will send the employee to a physician vetted by the company to confirm the need for accommodation.
- nickpeterson 3y ago
  In the end it isn’t about the loss of money, it’s the loss of power. An agreeable doctor giving you reasonable time off to mend feels like letting employees claw back power. It’s the same with work from home policies, they’re not interested in performance, it’s control.
  - kortilla 3y ago
    It’s really not. It’s money. A lost employee that you still have to pay for is a huge expense. Most companies costs are dominated by labor costs so anything that could be gamed there that would drive up that cost is scrutinized significantly.
    - djbusby 3y ago
      So? Aren't these companies "good at business"? They should be able to plan around it - if they are in fact good at business. Many of these fast food places have executives whos monthly compensation exceeds the YEARLY compensation of these front-line employees. Its for sure not a money problem - it's an allocation problem.
      - dietr1ch 3y ago
        Being good at business means that they know where they can easily push and get away with it to get more money in the long run. Making it unreasonable hard to take time off will end up in fewer time off over time, and it only takes a couple words from management.
      - kortilla 3y ago
        Being good at business means ensuring you’re not being ripped off on labor costs. We’ve come full circle.

hotpotamus 3y ago

I had a friend who ran into this from time to time. I was able to help him because I own a printer.

haldujai 3y ago

I loathed these visits when I had to do primary care. I understand the patient's position and don't hold that against them but can we just decide as a society to let people take occasional sick days and stop wasting everyone's time with short-term sick notes, especially as these requirements disproportionately affect low SES individuals. I'm sure someone's studied it but I would confidently bet this song and dance costs society more than the supposed malingering it is preventing. > Now a doctor's note seems to be a reasonable ask, but have you ever tried to get one? Start with limited transportation and insurance, then get into the doctor's office and ask. I think I've made 3-4 requests and at least two, I was refused any excuse. Is this common? I perform procedures sometimes and most of the things I do require no time off / limitations so I don't get asked a lot but I've been noticing patients seem increasingly awkward when asking for a sick note and go into a long story trying to justify the request. Haven't been sure why as I sure as shit wouldn't want to work the day after I had a biopsy but your experience provides some context. Personally, I have an extremely low threshold to write a 2-3 day note if someone wants one which is how I was taught in medical school, I assumed this was how most physicians practiced. Unless someone is a frequent flier asking for sick notes every week (without an appropriate reason) I wonder where the physician hesitancy is coming from, it's incredibly easy to medicolegally justify a short leave < 7 days. Edit: Checked Cochrane out of curiosity and was surprised to see they had a review on this topic with (unsurprisingly) "very low certainty" evidence. For self-certification < 3 days 2 studies reported an increase in work time lost of 0.54 and 1.38 days/person-year. On the other hand increasing self-certification to 50 days or 1 year had decreased impact on time off (granted it seems they only counted days off due to longer absences). Even if these numbers are accurate for < 3 days (ignoring all the methodological flaws pointed out in the Cochrane review) this is already such a minuscule effect before factoring in the increased spread of illness, economic impact and burden on the system it's barely worth discussing. Honestly, even assuming the worst that this is malingering for 1 day/year I feel like we're better off as a society just calling it a "wellness day" and moving on. https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD013098.pub2/abstract https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD...

Dalewyn 3y ago
>can we just decide as a society to let people take occasional sick days and stop wasting everyone's time with short-term sick notes, I see it as the few arseholes ruining the system for everyone. That is to say, there's that arsehole who takes leave by lying about having a flu or typhoid or dysentery or whatever else and he ends up costing the company too much in wasted time and pay. So now everyone has to get a note from someone who will insure their reason for taking leave. Which is to say, don't blame the doctors nor the honest patients and workers. Blame the few arseholes that ruin everything for the rest of us.

plagiarist 3y ago

A doctor's note is not a reasonable ask, actually. It is actually unreasonable that work has so few days off available and that you need to take further of your own time to see a medical professional to give you permission to stay at home while you are ill.

grugagag 3y ago
Also getting a doctors note while sick is hard if you’re feeling really unwell plus a doctors visit will cost you money if you don’t have insurance, and it will cost time too. For serios illness that requires a visit to the doctor is okay, probably not hard to obtain if already seeing a doctor.
- genocidicbunny 3y ago
  Not to mention that often, the illness is something where just some bed rest and relaxation for a day or two is all that's needed, so not much the doctor can really do, but by coming in you've potentially exposed a lot of other people to your disease.
NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
Furthermore, what's a doctor going to do for my cold or flu? I'd rather take the opportunity to drop by the pharmacy for some cough drops, fruit juice, and replace the battery in my thermometer. Lest we forget, though, Mary Mallon was an asymptomatic carrier who didn't feel sick, needed to work, and wasn't about to call in sick. In fact she defied forcible and controversial quarantine measures. So what's an asymptomatic carrier to do in 2023? Wear a mask?

egberts1 3y ago

This is the part where you SHOULD see a company nurse (or even HR) in-person to bypass the doctor's note, given the extreme transportation usage. This way, you made due diligence and cannot be legally fired.

dragonwriter 3y ago

> Now a doctor's note seems to be a reasonable ask, but have you ever tried to get one? Yes. Just needed one, and got it via a telemedicine visit (also got advised to take more time off than I would have if I didn’t have to get a doctor's note for how long I had already been off.) Whether this is an option depends, of course, on whether either your insurance or your primary care medical group offers telemedicine visits. > Don't even think about a telemed alternative. They'll render their letter worthless with disclaimers, because the HCP didn't meet or examine you in any meaningful way. I literally just did this (as described above), the note doesn’t have any disclaimers at all except that the return to work was contingent on both the specified time elapsing and symptoms being gone.

edrxty 3y ago
I deeply love that doctors, tired with this bullshit wasting their time and exposing them to all manner of unnecessary pathogens, have arrived at the solution of making it well known that they will demand excessive time off if you require your employees to get notes. I always get a lot of enjoyment out of people finding creative ways of weaponizing corporate fear of liability in order to make them behave.

thatfrenchguy 3y ago

> Now a doctor's note seems to be a reasonable ask Trust is a reasonable ask. Shocked me at first when my employer in the US, coming from France where doctor's notes are mandatory, didn't give a fuck because they trusted me.

Leherenn 3y ago
I guess the difference is that in the US you can just fire someone if you suspect them of breaking your trust, whereas in France you would need a long process and paper trail with medium confidence of actually being able to go through.

WirelessGigabit 3y ago

Belgium still has policies in place. Now, you do get paid for sick days, but still, my PCP in Belgium did one thing from 9am to 2pm. Write doctor's notes for overzealous employers.

kgwxd 3y ago

If work ever asked me for a doctors note I’d just risk calling their bluff. Not worth it. Schools do it too, never a consequence for anyone I’ve known that just simply didn’t get one, students and workers alike.

hedora 3y ago

This complaint is so strange. I guess an HCP is some terrible American insurance thing I haven't heard of yet? (I believe you, I just haven't encountered this.) Out here in California, I can't set foot near a doctor's office or conclude a telemedicine without being offered a machine-generated note. Worst case, I could probably just print out the follow up emails from my provider's web page documenting the visit, and my employer would accept that.