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Is this any wonder? Lower paid work often has ridiculous rules about being off sick, if it even offers paid sick time. This is the inevitable conclusion of the

Is this any wonder? Lower paid work often has ridiculous rules about being off sick, if it even offers paid sick time. This is the inevitable conclusion of the race to the bottom in the US over the last 43 years.

jeffbee 3y ago
> 43 years Surprisingly specific.
- devonkim 3y ago
  It’s usually political in nature I’ve noticed when being that specific and that would be Reagan’s first time. I go much further back than that to even prior to the Southern Strategy. It’s a tad of a red herring to look at a presidential term when it’s usually a lagging indicator.
  - jeffbee 3y ago
    If it is political it bothers me that it is off-by-one.
- pstrateman 3y ago
  People like to blame Reagan but the separation between GDP and worker compensation happens around 1971. I'm sure it's just a coincidence this happened at the same time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smithsonian_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smithsonian_Agreement
  - cma 3y ago
    Women heavily started entering the workforce around then increasing the labor pool (increased supply of labor, downwards pressure on wages.
    - inetknght 3y ago
      > downwards pressure on wages I would believe that if it weren't for the fact that top-level pay has significantly widened from the bottom-level pay.
      - ToValueFunfetti 3y ago
        I don't know whether the claim is true, but I think this effect supports it. Women are underrepresented at the top, so you'd expect the wage pressure to be lower there.
      - nemo44x 3y ago
        There’s also many more people (in percentage terms and actual) that are making top level pay. The upper middle class has expanded greatly. Once the domain of lawyers, doctors, and execs, the upper middle class has been opened to a wider range of professionals. 50 years ago this class of people was <5% of people. Today it approaches 30%. The lower class has also shrunk. So this has come at an expense to the middle class. It isn’t that the middle class is poorer but rather are closer to the lower class than upper middle. Before the middle class was much larger and more people were similar and people compared themselves that way. This is why housing in some markets seems insane to people in other markets. And why middle class people are locked out when living in an upper middle area.
    - Retric 3y ago
      Changes to the workforce size don’t correlate well with the downward wage pressure. Similarly female participation in the workforce don’t line up well with wage stagnation. https://www.investors.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/wLFPrate021320.jpg https://www.investors.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/wLFPrat...
      - golemiprague 3y ago
        [dead]
      - cma 3y ago
        https://imageio.forbes.com/blogs-images/timworstall/files/2016/10/wagescompensation-1200x1093.jpg?height=647&width=711&fit=bounds https://imageio.forbes.com/blogs-images/timworstall/files/20... Lines up well at parts. It isn't the full explanation.
  - Lammy 3y ago
    Try 1971's “An Interim Report to the President and the Congress from the Commission on Population Growth and the American Future”, chaired by John D. Rockefeller Ⅲ https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED050960.pdf#page=10 https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED050960.pdf#page=10 (copy and paste to avoid HTTP Referer check)
  - HideousKojima 3y ago
    Related to your link is also the Bretton Woods II agreement which got us off the gold standard completely.
  - josu 3y ago
    Many indicators started diverging in 1971: https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/ https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/
leononame 3y ago
I'm still baffled every now and then about the US. That paid sick time is even a thing to discuss and that the workplace sets those rules is another of those moments. Can anyone chime in in defense of this? Is there a side to this I'm not seeing?
- droopyEyelids 3y ago
  The USA is extremely hostile to unions, and labor has virtually no ability to negotiate with capital. For example, last Thursday the Supreme Court just ruled that unions can be sued for losses caused by striking https://archive.is/0bYhe https://archive.is/0bYhe But that is just the last pieces of labor's power getting washed away in the USA. Already things like sympathy strikes, which give labor actual power in Europe, are completely illegal.
  - twoodfin 3y ago
    “Losses caused by striking” is a funny way to describe the holding of the case, which was about cement truck drivers deliberately timing their strike to maximize the risk of damage to the trucks and at a minimum spoil their loads. The decision was 8-1.
    - hgsgm 3y ago
      Or management deliberately times the cement mixing to block the strike. Everyone seems to miss that the Court did not rule on the merits of the case. They rules on a procedural question. They ruled that the suit can go forward because intentional damage was within the realm of possibility. Jackson dissented because she believed that NLRB has priority jurisdiction before other lawsuit venues. No one on HN knows who is "right".
  - fnordpiglet 3y ago
    The context is : Instead, the employer contended in a lawsuit, “the drivers prompted the creation of the perishable product” and then waited until the concrete was inside the trucks before walking off the job. The bar being set is intentionality in destroying property even through spoilage by setting up a situation to cause the spoilage intentionally. It’s a fairly minor erosion if it is at all.
cj 3y ago
I’m not sure higher pay would fix the problem. Money rarely fixes any social problem. I hear about workers not showing up for work from a cousin who manages a restaurant. They’ll hire someone, tell them they start Monday, and then Monday comes and the person doesn’t show up. Or a chef who has a drug/drinking problem (extremely common in the industry) calling in “sick” last minute. Obviously there are exceptions but I’m not convinced that lower pay = less reliable employee. Very possible it’s a correlation rather than causation.
- djbusby 3y ago
  Don't even need higher pay. Just don't be an asshole boss when folk need to be sick. Else, the burden is transferred to the clients! Would all be easier with better health-care options and assurances of an improved social-saftey-net.
  - cj 3y ago
    I’m not convinced social safety nets would fix worker reliability (people skipping work when they’re not sick) Work ethic, reliability, trustworthiness, etc are character traits that aren’t easily changed by a better HR policy or safety nets. Unreliable workers will still be unreliable regardless of how much they’re paid.
    - throw_m239339 3y ago
      > Work ethic, reliability, trustworthiness, Aren't character traits that are encouraged by slave wages either. You care about these values? Employees care about money, "values" don't fill stomachs or pay the rent. this is about getting paid. If I need money I'll show up to work even if I'm sick otherwise I don't get any money, I don't care about the rest, just like the employer doesn't care about me when I'm sick. You really think that these food processing companies/restaurants pay employees enough to get some some of allegiance from them or something? that's absurd.
    - fnordpiglet 3y ago
      I thought the issue being discussed overall was presenteeism in food industry jobs causing customers to get sick. Work ethic isn’t created by not allowing humans to isolate when they’re ill either. It’s a public health issue. Will people take off sick when they’re not? Of course. I don’t think that has a social stratum. I take off when I’m not sick using my sick leave as a “mental health day,” and I’m in the upper end of the upper end of the labor force.

jeffbee 3y ago

> 43 years Surprisingly specific.

devonkim 3y ago
It’s usually political in nature I’ve noticed when being that specific and that would be Reagan’s first time. I go much further back than that to even prior to the Southern Strategy. It’s a tad of a red herring to look at a presidential term when it’s usually a lagging indicator.
- jeffbee 3y ago
  If it is political it bothers me that it is off-by-one.
pstrateman 3y ago
People like to blame Reagan but the separation between GDP and worker compensation happens around 1971. I'm sure it's just a coincidence this happened at the same time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smithsonian_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smithsonian_Agreement
- cma 3y ago
  Women heavily started entering the workforce around then increasing the labor pool (increased supply of labor, downwards pressure on wages.
  - inetknght 3y ago
    > downwards pressure on wages I would believe that if it weren't for the fact that top-level pay has significantly widened from the bottom-level pay.
    - ToValueFunfetti 3y ago
      I don't know whether the claim is true, but I think this effect supports it. Women are underrepresented at the top, so you'd expect the wage pressure to be lower there.
    - nemo44x 3y ago
      There’s also many more people (in percentage terms and actual) that are making top level pay. The upper middle class has expanded greatly. Once the domain of lawyers, doctors, and execs, the upper middle class has been opened to a wider range of professionals. 50 years ago this class of people was <5% of people. Today it approaches 30%. The lower class has also shrunk. So this has come at an expense to the middle class. It isn’t that the middle class is poorer but rather are closer to the lower class than upper middle. Before the middle class was much larger and more people were similar and people compared themselves that way. This is why housing in some markets seems insane to people in other markets. And why middle class people are locked out when living in an upper middle area.
  - Retric 3y ago
    Changes to the workforce size don’t correlate well with the downward wage pressure. Similarly female participation in the workforce don’t line up well with wage stagnation. https://www.investors.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/wLFPrate021320.jpg https://www.investors.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/wLFPrat...
    - golemiprague 3y ago
      [dead]
    - cma 3y ago
      https://imageio.forbes.com/blogs-images/timworstall/files/2016/10/wagescompensation-1200x1093.jpg?height=647&width=711&fit=bounds https://imageio.forbes.com/blogs-images/timworstall/files/20... Lines up well at parts. It isn't the full explanation.
- Lammy 3y ago
  Try 1971's “An Interim Report to the President and the Congress from the Commission on Population Growth and the American Future”, chaired by John D. Rockefeller Ⅲ https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED050960.pdf#page=10 https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED050960.pdf#page=10 (copy and paste to avoid HTTP Referer check)
- HideousKojima 3y ago
  Related to your link is also the Bretton Woods II agreement which got us off the gold standard completely.
- josu 3y ago
  Many indicators started diverging in 1971: https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/ https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/

leononame 3y ago

I'm still baffled every now and then about the US. That paid sick time is even a thing to discuss and that the workplace sets those rules is another of those moments. Can anyone chime in in defense of this? Is there a side to this I'm not seeing?

droopyEyelids 3y ago
The USA is extremely hostile to unions, and labor has virtually no ability to negotiate with capital. For example, last Thursday the Supreme Court just ruled that unions can be sued for losses caused by striking https://archive.is/0bYhe https://archive.is/0bYhe But that is just the last pieces of labor's power getting washed away in the USA. Already things like sympathy strikes, which give labor actual power in Europe, are completely illegal.
- twoodfin 3y ago
  “Losses caused by striking” is a funny way to describe the holding of the case, which was about cement truck drivers deliberately timing their strike to maximize the risk of damage to the trucks and at a minimum spoil their loads. The decision was 8-1.
  - hgsgm 3y ago
    Or management deliberately times the cement mixing to block the strike. Everyone seems to miss that the Court did not rule on the merits of the case. They rules on a procedural question. They ruled that the suit can go forward because intentional damage was within the realm of possibility. Jackson dissented because she believed that NLRB has priority jurisdiction before other lawsuit venues. No one on HN knows who is "right".
- fnordpiglet 3y ago
  The context is : Instead, the employer contended in a lawsuit, “the drivers prompted the creation of the perishable product” and then waited until the concrete was inside the trucks before walking off the job. The bar being set is intentionality in destroying property even through spoilage by setting up a situation to cause the spoilage intentionally. It’s a fairly minor erosion if it is at all.

cj 3y ago

I’m not sure higher pay would fix the problem. Money rarely fixes any social problem. I hear about workers not showing up for work from a cousin who manages a restaurant. They’ll hire someone, tell them they start Monday, and then Monday comes and the person doesn’t show up. Or a chef who has a drug/drinking problem (extremely common in the industry) calling in “sick” last minute. Obviously there are exceptions but I’m not convinced that lower pay = less reliable employee. Very possible it’s a correlation rather than causation.

djbusby 3y ago
Don't even need higher pay. Just don't be an asshole boss when folk need to be sick. Else, the burden is transferred to the clients! Would all be easier with better health-care options and assurances of an improved social-saftey-net.
- cj 3y ago
  I’m not convinced social safety nets would fix worker reliability (people skipping work when they’re not sick) Work ethic, reliability, trustworthiness, etc are character traits that aren’t easily changed by a better HR policy or safety nets. Unreliable workers will still be unreliable regardless of how much they’re paid.
  - throw_m239339 3y ago
    > Work ethic, reliability, trustworthiness, Aren't character traits that are encouraged by slave wages either. You care about these values? Employees care about money, "values" don't fill stomachs or pay the rent. this is about getting paid. If I need money I'll show up to work even if I'm sick otherwise I don't get any money, I don't care about the rest, just like the employer doesn't care about me when I'm sick. You really think that these food processing companies/restaurants pay employees enough to get some some of allegiance from them or something? that's absurd.
  - fnordpiglet 3y ago
    I thought the issue being discussed overall was presenteeism in food industry jobs causing customers to get sick. Work ethic isn’t created by not allowing humans to isolate when they’re ill either. It’s a public health issue. Will people take off sick when they’re not? Of course. I don’t think that has a social stratum. I take off when I’m not sick using my sick leave as a “mental health day,” and I’m in the upper end of the upper end of the labor force.