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I have a hard time believing that a handful of digital nomads are responsible for rent increases and the other changes mentioned in the article. In the US, you

I have a hard time believing that a handful of digital nomads are responsible for rent increases and the other changes mentioned in the article. In the US, you can find people from nearly every state who believe that Californians are responsible for driving up home prices. This article feels like an international version of that same myth. As for digital nomads, my experience hiring or working with digital nomads has been universally negative for many years. All anecdotes, of course, but every one of them treated the job like a side project that they’d get to whenever they had some free time during a permanent vacation lifestyle. Some of them produced good work if you could micromanage them enough to make sure they were actually working, but the rest of the time felt like a game of chicken where they were constantly trying to push the limits of how little work they could do or how many meetings (rare but important at the time) they could miss or have their “camera broken” while they obviously tried to half listen in from some vacation spot. I’m sure there are good digital nomads out there, but I’ve been burned enough time that I prefer not to work with them unless it’s on a well-defined contract basis with clear project-based fees.

survirtual 3y ago
Agreed on the fact that digital nomads are not the prime contributors -- that can be largely attributed to corporate rental orgs, foreign investment safe havens, airbnb, and a small class of wealthy people using homes / land as wealth stores. As for your other point... It is easy to blame people as a class for their inability to meet your expectations, but I would encourage more self-reflection and not axing a whole group of workers because of some bad experiences. Here is an alternative view, because I think that it's important to acknowledge the evolving work-lifestyle balance that many individuals, especially digital nomads, are adopting today. Instead of prioritizing work over life, they choose to intertwine the two, enhancing their experiences and broadening their perspectives. In engaging with digital nomads, they have largely come to a better understanding about work and life. They are not letting work get in the way of their living. The work you’re offering becomes a part of their life, rather than the defining factor. They tend to prefer environments where rigid structures and unproductive meetings make way for flexibility, creativity, and efficient communication. Working with digital nomads requires a shift in traditional managerial approaches. Here are some recommendations: - Effective Communication: Ensure meetings are purposeful and time-efficient. Adopt asynchronous communication, which respects the nomad’s flexible schedule and promotes a healthy work-life balance. - Clear Goals: Communicate your vision, objectives, and deadlines clearly. This ensures expectations align and facilitates the digital nomad’s proactive role in the project. - Flexible Schedules: Embrace flexibility in terms of work schedules. Trust your team to meet the agreed-upon deadlines, focusing more on the quality of outcomes rather than hours logged. - Measurable Benchmarks: Establish clear, achievable benchmarks. This helps in maintaining a project’s momentum and provides a clear gauge of progress. - Clarity in Tasks: Digital nomads value their time, hence it’s crucial that tasks are defined precisely. Ambiguity may lead to delays and misunderstandings. - Realistic Expectations: Understand the work scope and timelines. Overestimating or underestimating these aspects can lead to frustration and tension in the professional relationship. In order to foster a healthier work dynamic, consider the following: - Trust-Based Relationships: Build trust by focusing on outcomes, not micromanaging. This fosters a sense of responsibility and ownership in the nomad. - Meaningful Work: Provide stimulating and meaningful work. This encourages engagement and can lead to higher productivity. - Experiential Opportunities: If possible, integrate opportunities for travel and new experiences into your work offerings. This aligns with the nomad’s lifestyle and enhances their work satisfaction. In essence, it’s not about confining individuals to boxes, but adapting to their style of work and making the most of the unique skills and perspectives they bring to the table. When work and life coexist harmoniously, the results can be rewarding for both the individual and the employer. If you can find a way to merge experience with work in an authentic way, you will have a better experience with these sorts.
- incone123 3y ago
  These all seem to apply to management in general. Most people do better when given engaging tasks and clear objectives. Being respectful of time rather depends on the nature of the job. I'm remote but there are meetings where my expertise is needed and others that I chair - if I don't attend then I'm not doing my job.
- analog31 3y ago
  Just those few things. Do them perfectly, and everything will be great. The managers are hopelessly outgunned. For years they (we) bumbled along, and cut our employees a lot of slack. At least I did. At the same time, they cut us some slack too, for instance by figuring out the precise details of their own tasks, working things out with colleagues, and so forth. If each employee has to be managed perfectly, then where are you going to get managers, especially without paying them more, and with the additional expectation that managers should be technically qualified? Screw that. Most of us came out of the techie ranks. I was happy to go back.
  - survirtual 3y ago
    Navigating the rapidly evolving work environment is indeed challenging, but not insurmountable. The goal isn’t to achieve managerial perfection, but to adapt our strategies in line with the changing norms. Digital nomads, as self-driven individuals, value freedom and independence, an ethos we can harness for mutual growth. Technical proficiency in managers is valuable, but empathy and understanding can bridge the gap even better. Ultimately, whether as techies or managers, we thrive where our skills are best utilized. This evolution of work isn’t a burden but an opportunity for growth, requiring us to adapt and innovate.
    - analog31 3y ago
      Adapting to changing conditions is precisely what I did. ;-)
- satyrnein 3y ago
  Or you could just hire the native developers in those countries for one-third the cost and one-tenth the expectations.
bosch_mind 3y ago
Not sure what kind of places you work at, but my entire team is distributed and we are all young and consistently working 10-12 hours a day. Plus I live on the beach! When I worked in an office I worked way less and got way more distracted
- lokar 3y ago
  Distributed / remote is not the same as full nomad
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- messe 3y ago
  > consistently working 10-12 hours a day That shouldn't be something to aspire to.
  - charlie0 3y ago
    It is if you're making 250K a year.
    - messe 3y ago
      It’d take a hell of a lot more than that for me to give up that much time.
    - vpastore 3y ago
      No it’s not
  - cultofmetatron 3y ago
    It depends. if you're getting generous equity and the company has a good chance of growing, then it can be a worthwhile gamble while you're young.
DirectorKrennic 3y ago
> All anecdotes, of course, but every one of them treated the job like a side project that they’d get to whenever they had some free time during a permanent vacation lifestyle Devil's advocate: this is the direction we should aim toward as a society. Yes, the work still needs to be performed, but efficient workers should be rewarded with more free time for the same wage, because the purpose of life, the economy, and civilization itself should be to enable everyone to do whatever they want, as much as possible, and labor is only a way to achieve that.
- prepend 3y ago
  > efficient workers should be rewarded with more free time for the same wage By all means be an independent contractor and set your own hours and rates. Or work for a company that allows part time workers. But salaries workers usually have a schedule expectation (~40 hours or so in the US) and you’d be lucky to work for an org that does less. I think you’ll need to start a company and do that as I think most companies would rather just make more money off increased productivity.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
trabant00 3y ago
The numbers certainly are low enough not to drive up rents, or create significant demand for fancy coffee shops or any other business. > In 2022, 2,305 temporary residence permits for Mexico City were granted to U.S. citizens Mexico City metro area has 21 million people. And who can say what percentage of those 2.3k are digital nomads. Because you also have expats. > Extrapolating from its user base, Nomad List projects that there are currently about 7.600 remote workers in Medellín Leaving aside this is a gross estimation - 7.6k remote workers in a metro area of 3.7 million. Are all the 7.6k digital nomads or can they be local remote workers?
- codethief 3y ago
  Note that the article also says that many nomads switch places every month. Most of them won't need a temporary residence permit for Mexico. > Leaving aside this is a gross estimation - 7.6k remote workers in a metro area of 3.7 million. Are all the 7.6k digital nomads or can they be local remote workers? Given Nomad List's target audience, I think they mean digital nomads from outside Colombia. It's also very likely that the actual numbers are higher – I have met plenty of nomads in Medellín but, like me, many were not using Nomad List.
Jcampuzano2 3y ago
Note: I am a digital nomad for half the year every year myself. With that said on your second commentary about digital nomads, my question would simply be: Are they getting the work you expect done finished in a timely manner (comparable to others on your team)? If so, regardless of any other point, what is the problem? If not, then why didn't you address the issue quickly since you mention you're the one who hired them. I do know there are some digital nomads who definitely minimize the amount of work they can do, but I still think the issue is with employers in general not being good at managing remote workers (not just digital nomads). If you don't set expectations or clearly communicate that they aren't working up to expectations, then of course they will continue to act in such a way. Work is not my life, and I think that jars with the thinking of some others who prioritize their work over everything else. My honest opinion is that this primarily a failing of management and hiring you are speaking to. I do good work, and whatever is expected of me, and my manager is always happy. I make sure to do at minimum just that. But if I'm not doing that I would hope somebody would simply communicate that.
- prepend 3y ago
  > If not, then why didn't you address the issue quickly since you mention you're the one who hired them. For me, it’s because I’m busy and this takes time. Being a good employee isn’t unique to digits nomads or not. But having to micromanage to correct problems is something I’d like to avoid as a manager. I have fantastic employees and do not experience this type of behavior and work on hiring people who are self starters and problem solvers not people who bill by the hour, work for an hour and bill 8 and claim it’s because I didn’t assign more work. I’d rather hire someone smart who figures out what they can do by maximizing their time themself that helps toward our broader mission. I don’t want to assign tasks, I want to remove blockers and help expand impact. So I like to find more things to do, not finish things and then wait.
  - Jcampuzano2 3y ago
    The need to micromanage some people like this is also not unique to digital nomads, so I don't see how the time needed to navigate this issue from a management level is any different for a digital nomad vs anybody else? There are plenty of in-office workers who do the exact same thing, they just might be sitting at their desk all day waiting for something. In fact they might even give off an even greater illusion of doing something/being productive simply because you can visually see them, not because of actually doing anything. I honestly think a lot of office workers/remove workers who aren't digital nomads do the exact same things being purported with respect to amount of time actually spent working. They just may not in a fancy location and because you can visually see them it brings false sense of productivity. That said, I'm not saying that I nor many others sit on my thumbs and do nothing if I have no tasks assigned. In my thoughts that is part of the expectations being set/what my responsibilities are (i.e. setting expectations/it being know that my job role is not a task mule). I agree that this can be an issue, but I also think this issue is not unique to digital nomads. This all still seems like a hiring and management issue to me more than a digital nomad issue. How I see it is that if somebody is needing to be micromanaged and you don't desire that, remote or not, give them a warning/communicate and if it continues, let them go.
pydry 3y ago
Investors chasing returns are probably the bigger driver but digital nomads are highlighting for them where might be a good investment. Investor-landlords (especially if they are local) are also probably more keen to lay the blame at digital nomads' feet. Every guilty party loves a good scapegoat.
neilv 3y ago
> In the US, you can find people from nearly every state who believe that Californians are responsible for driving up home prices. I suspect it's not entirely Covid diaspora and the handful of digital nomads pushed by lifestyle influencers. Californicators driving up housing prices was already a meme in Portland in the 1980s.
prepend 3y ago
> “camera broken” But if a tangent, but I think this is the dumbest excuse ever. I wish people would just say they don’t want to turn it on. It seems weird when a programmer complains about this like it’s something outside their control. I’m sure it actually happens, but I’ve never had a MacBook camera fail and I have like 15 year old iMacs with the cam still working. This makes people sound incompetent, especially when cameras aren’t required or anything.
- pcthrowaway 3y ago
  Oh but the camera sometimes is broken. Glitchy firmware or bad drivers for the OS can lead to all sorts of problems (I'm talking about people using Desktops of course)
  - prepend 3y ago
    I used usb webcams on desktops for 10 years and never had an outage (mostly windows but Linux as well). I’ve used half a dozen MacBooks over 15 years and never had an outage. I’m sure it does happen, but I don’t think I’m uniquely lucky. I bet the ratio of people who lie vs unfortunate as 100:1. And consistent failure is just poor planning as I would get a replacement after the first few failures. If I wanted to turn on my cam, of course.
    - pcthrowaway 3y ago
      I agree that people were probably lying in aggregate. What I'm saying is that it's the type of lie that you can't know is a lie based on one person not having their webcam work. It's like saying people who take 10 sick days a year are lying, because I've never taken more than 3 sick days. Of course, some people take sick days when they're not sick. But if, say, your employees in their 30s take twice as many sick days as employees in their 60s, it might be because people in their 30s are more inclined to "lie" about it (or use sick days for things besides being sick)
- cultofmetatron 3y ago
  you don't need the camera anyway. I worked with my cofounders as a contractor for a year without knowing what either of them looked like. we collaborated over slack, I did my job and they deposited the money into my account on time every month. I didn't actually see them face to face till i flew to greece to sign paperwork to get equity and officially form a startup as CTO. Been working together for 4 years now and we still only talk audio only. That said, I can understand why you'd want it at the initial outset. In my case, the introduction was made by a mutual friend whom provided that guarantee of trust. (reputation is everything)

survirtual 3y ago

Agreed on the fact that digital nomads are not the prime contributors -- that can be largely attributed to corporate rental orgs, foreign investment safe havens, airbnb, and a small class of wealthy people using homes / land as wealth stores. As for your other point... It is easy to blame people as a class for their inability to meet your expectations, but I would encourage more self-reflection and not axing a whole group of workers because of some bad experiences. Here is an alternative view, because I think that it's important to acknowledge the evolving work-lifestyle balance that many individuals, especially digital nomads, are adopting today. Instead of prioritizing work over life, they choose to intertwine the two, enhancing their experiences and broadening their perspectives. In engaging with digital nomads, they have largely come to a better understanding about work and life. They are not letting work get in the way of their living. The work you’re offering becomes a part of their life, rather than the defining factor. They tend to prefer environments where rigid structures and unproductive meetings make way for flexibility, creativity, and efficient communication. Working with digital nomads requires a shift in traditional managerial approaches. Here are some recommendations: - Effective Communication: Ensure meetings are purposeful and time-efficient. Adopt asynchronous communication, which respects the nomad’s flexible schedule and promotes a healthy work-life balance. - Clear Goals: Communicate your vision, objectives, and deadlines clearly. This ensures expectations align and facilitates the digital nomad’s proactive role in the project. - Flexible Schedules: Embrace flexibility in terms of work schedules. Trust your team to meet the agreed-upon deadlines, focusing more on the quality of outcomes rather than hours logged. - Measurable Benchmarks: Establish clear, achievable benchmarks. This helps in maintaining a project’s momentum and provides a clear gauge of progress. - Clarity in Tasks: Digital nomads value their time, hence it’s crucial that tasks are defined precisely. Ambiguity may lead to delays and misunderstandings. - Realistic Expectations: Understand the work scope and timelines. Overestimating or underestimating these aspects can lead to frustration and tension in the professional relationship. In order to foster a healthier work dynamic, consider the following: - Trust-Based Relationships: Build trust by focusing on outcomes, not micromanaging. This fosters a sense of responsibility and ownership in the nomad. - Meaningful Work: Provide stimulating and meaningful work. This encourages engagement and can lead to higher productivity. - Experiential Opportunities: If possible, integrate opportunities for travel and new experiences into your work offerings. This aligns with the nomad’s lifestyle and enhances their work satisfaction. In essence, it’s not about confining individuals to boxes, but adapting to their style of work and making the most of the unique skills and perspectives they bring to the table. When work and life coexist harmoniously, the results can be rewarding for both the individual and the employer. If you can find a way to merge experience with work in an authentic way, you will have a better experience with these sorts.

incone123 3y ago
These all seem to apply to management in general. Most people do better when given engaging tasks and clear objectives. Being respectful of time rather depends on the nature of the job. I'm remote but there are meetings where my expertise is needed and others that I chair - if I don't attend then I'm not doing my job.
analog31 3y ago
Just those few things. Do them perfectly, and everything will be great. The managers are hopelessly outgunned. For years they (we) bumbled along, and cut our employees a lot of slack. At least I did. At the same time, they cut us some slack too, for instance by figuring out the precise details of their own tasks, working things out with colleagues, and so forth. If each employee has to be managed perfectly, then where are you going to get managers, especially without paying them more, and with the additional expectation that managers should be technically qualified? Screw that. Most of us came out of the techie ranks. I was happy to go back.
- survirtual 3y ago
  Navigating the rapidly evolving work environment is indeed challenging, but not insurmountable. The goal isn’t to achieve managerial perfection, but to adapt our strategies in line with the changing norms. Digital nomads, as self-driven individuals, value freedom and independence, an ethos we can harness for mutual growth. Technical proficiency in managers is valuable, but empathy and understanding can bridge the gap even better. Ultimately, whether as techies or managers, we thrive where our skills are best utilized. This evolution of work isn’t a burden but an opportunity for growth, requiring us to adapt and innovate.
  - analog31 3y ago
    Adapting to changing conditions is precisely what I did. ;-)
satyrnein 3y ago
Or you could just hire the native developers in those countries for one-third the cost and one-tenth the expectations.

bosch_mind 3y ago

Not sure what kind of places you work at, but my entire team is distributed and we are all young and consistently working 10-12 hours a day. Plus I live on the beach! When I worked in an office I worked way less and got way more distracted

lokar 3y ago
Distributed / remote is not the same as full nomad
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
messe 3y ago
> consistently working 10-12 hours a day That shouldn't be something to aspire to.
- charlie0 3y ago
  It is if you're making 250K a year.
  - messe 3y ago
    It’d take a hell of a lot more than that for me to give up that much time.
  - vpastore 3y ago
    No it’s not
- cultofmetatron 3y ago
  It depends. if you're getting generous equity and the company has a good chance of growing, then it can be a worthwhile gamble while you're young.

DirectorKrennic 3y ago

> All anecdotes, of course, but every one of them treated the job like a side project that they’d get to whenever they had some free time during a permanent vacation lifestyle Devil's advocate: this is the direction we should aim toward as a society. Yes, the work still needs to be performed, but efficient workers should be rewarded with more free time for the same wage, because the purpose of life, the economy, and civilization itself should be to enable everyone to do whatever they want, as much as possible, and labor is only a way to achieve that.

prepend 3y ago
> efficient workers should be rewarded with more free time for the same wage By all means be an independent contractor and set your own hours and rates. Or work for a company that allows part time workers. But salaries workers usually have a schedule expectation (~40 hours or so in the US) and you’d be lucky to work for an org that does less. I think you’ll need to start a company and do that as I think most companies would rather just make more money off increased productivity.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

trabant00 3y ago

The numbers certainly are low enough not to drive up rents, or create significant demand for fancy coffee shops or any other business. > In 2022, 2,305 temporary residence permits for Mexico City were granted to U.S. citizens Mexico City metro area has 21 million people. And who can say what percentage of those 2.3k are digital nomads. Because you also have expats. > Extrapolating from its user base, Nomad List projects that there are currently about 7.600 remote workers in Medellín Leaving aside this is a gross estimation - 7.6k remote workers in a metro area of 3.7 million. Are all the 7.6k digital nomads or can they be local remote workers?

codethief 3y ago
Note that the article also says that many nomads switch places every month. Most of them won't need a temporary residence permit for Mexico. > Leaving aside this is a gross estimation - 7.6k remote workers in a metro area of 3.7 million. Are all the 7.6k digital nomads or can they be local remote workers? Given Nomad List's target audience, I think they mean digital nomads from outside Colombia. It's also very likely that the actual numbers are higher – I have met plenty of nomads in Medellín but, like me, many were not using Nomad List.

Jcampuzano2 3y ago

Note: I am a digital nomad for half the year every year myself. With that said on your second commentary about digital nomads, my question would simply be: Are they getting the work you expect done finished in a timely manner (comparable to others on your team)? If so, regardless of any other point, what is the problem? If not, then why didn't you address the issue quickly since you mention you're the one who hired them. I do know there are some digital nomads who definitely minimize the amount of work they can do, but I still think the issue is with employers in general not being good at managing remote workers (not just digital nomads). If you don't set expectations or clearly communicate that they aren't working up to expectations, then of course they will continue to act in such a way. Work is not my life, and I think that jars with the thinking of some others who prioritize their work over everything else. My honest opinion is that this primarily a failing of management and hiring you are speaking to. I do good work, and whatever is expected of me, and my manager is always happy. I make sure to do at minimum just that. But if I'm not doing that I would hope somebody would simply communicate that.

prepend 3y ago
> If not, then why didn't you address the issue quickly since you mention you're the one who hired them. For me, it’s because I’m busy and this takes time. Being a good employee isn’t unique to digits nomads or not. But having to micromanage to correct problems is something I’d like to avoid as a manager. I have fantastic employees and do not experience this type of behavior and work on hiring people who are self starters and problem solvers not people who bill by the hour, work for an hour and bill 8 and claim it’s because I didn’t assign more work. I’d rather hire someone smart who figures out what they can do by maximizing their time themself that helps toward our broader mission. I don’t want to assign tasks, I want to remove blockers and help expand impact. So I like to find more things to do, not finish things and then wait.
- Jcampuzano2 3y ago
  The need to micromanage some people like this is also not unique to digital nomads, so I don't see how the time needed to navigate this issue from a management level is any different for a digital nomad vs anybody else? There are plenty of in-office workers who do the exact same thing, they just might be sitting at their desk all day waiting for something. In fact they might even give off an even greater illusion of doing something/being productive simply because you can visually see them, not because of actually doing anything. I honestly think a lot of office workers/remove workers who aren't digital nomads do the exact same things being purported with respect to amount of time actually spent working. They just may not in a fancy location and because you can visually see them it brings false sense of productivity. That said, I'm not saying that I nor many others sit on my thumbs and do nothing if I have no tasks assigned. In my thoughts that is part of the expectations being set/what my responsibilities are (i.e. setting expectations/it being know that my job role is not a task mule). I agree that this can be an issue, but I also think this issue is not unique to digital nomads. This all still seems like a hiring and management issue to me more than a digital nomad issue. How I see it is that if somebody is needing to be micromanaged and you don't desire that, remote or not, give them a warning/communicate and if it continues, let them go.

pydry 3y ago

Investors chasing returns are probably the bigger driver but digital nomads are highlighting for them where might be a good investment. Investor-landlords (especially if they are local) are also probably more keen to lay the blame at digital nomads' feet. Every guilty party loves a good scapegoat.

neilv 3y ago

> In the US, you can find people from nearly every state who believe that Californians are responsible for driving up home prices. I suspect it's not entirely Covid diaspora and the handful of digital nomads pushed by lifestyle influencers. Californicators driving up housing prices was already a meme in Portland in the 1980s.

prepend 3y ago

> “camera broken” But if a tangent, but I think this is the dumbest excuse ever. I wish people would just say they don’t want to turn it on. It seems weird when a programmer complains about this like it’s something outside their control. I’m sure it actually happens, but I’ve never had a MacBook camera fail and I have like 15 year old iMacs with the cam still working. This makes people sound incompetent, especially when cameras aren’t required or anything.

pcthrowaway 3y ago
Oh but the camera sometimes is broken. Glitchy firmware or bad drivers for the OS can lead to all sorts of problems (I'm talking about people using Desktops of course)
- prepend 3y ago
  I used usb webcams on desktops for 10 years and never had an outage (mostly windows but Linux as well). I’ve used half a dozen MacBooks over 15 years and never had an outage. I’m sure it does happen, but I don’t think I’m uniquely lucky. I bet the ratio of people who lie vs unfortunate as 100:1. And consistent failure is just poor planning as I would get a replacement after the first few failures. If I wanted to turn on my cam, of course.
  - pcthrowaway 3y ago
    I agree that people were probably lying in aggregate. What I'm saying is that it's the type of lie that you can't know is a lie based on one person not having their webcam work. It's like saying people who take 10 sick days a year are lying, because I've never taken more than 3 sick days. Of course, some people take sick days when they're not sick. But if, say, your employees in their 30s take twice as many sick days as employees in their 60s, it might be because people in their 30s are more inclined to "lie" about it (or use sick days for things besides being sick)
cultofmetatron 3y ago
you don't need the camera anyway. I worked with my cofounders as a contractor for a year without knowing what either of them looked like. we collaborated over slack, I did my job and they deposited the money into my account on time every month. I didn't actually see them face to face till i flew to greece to sign paperwork to get equity and officially form a startup as CTO. Been working together for 4 years now and we still only talk audio only. That said, I can understand why you'd want it at the initial outset. In my case, the introduction was made by a mutual friend whom provided that guarantee of trust. (reputation is everything)