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The Analog Thing: an open source, educational, low-cost modern analog computer
- evantbyrne 3y agoAsking as someone that is not familiar with general purpose analog computers: are there benefits over digital?
- JKCalhoun 3y agoTo me the appeal is that they more closely model "the Real World". Perhaps like modular synths, they invite experimentation, learning (maybe a bit like a graphing program?).
- mcdonje 3y agoThat's really neat. Veritasium did a couple of videos on analog computing a year ago. I'm glad there are people lowering the barrier to entry. https://youtu.be/IgF3OX8nT0w https://youtu.be/IgF3OX8nT0w https://youtu.be/GVsUOuSjvcg https://youtu.be/GVsUOuSjvcg
- pradn 3y agoThese are fantastic, thank you for sharing!
- so-and-so 3y agoVery interesting device. But it costs as much as an office PC, that can emulate this analog computer and do a lot more.
- qubex 3y agoA digital computer cannot emulate an analog computer: it can only simulate it to an arbitrary level of precision. That’s the whole point.
- mjhay 3y agoAnalog computers don't have infinite precision due to the presence of noise, so digital computers can emulate that with high-enough precision arithmetic.
- qubex 3y ago‘Emulation’ means something very specific. What you are speaking of is “simulation to an arbitrary degree of precision”, as I mentioned.
- bheadmaster 3y ago> 'Emulation' means something very specific What exactly? And how does it differ from "simulation"?
- qubex 3y agoSimulation is about mimicking another device or system. Emulation is about setting up a system that is logically indistinguishable from another irrespective of its implementation substrate and details thereof. A thing is successfully ‘emulated’ when it is logically impossible to distinguish the difference between the system and its emulated counterpart.
- flir 3y agoYou know, by that definition one analogue computer can't emulate another of the same model.
- qubex 3y agoExactly! For analog computers, every single ‘run’ is different!
- SamBam 3y agoSince, as you said in a sister reply, even one analog computer might be slightly different from another analog computer, and thus unable to emulate it, if you had the outputs of two different computers, one analog and one digital one simulating it to a high precision (higher than the noise of the analog one) how could you distinguish which was digital and which was analog? If you can't, then this is a meaningless semantic discussion. The digital computer can emulate the analog one as well as any other analog computer can.
- mjhay 3y agoThat's much less cool though.
- orbital-decay 3y agoIt's an educational board. I made a custom educational board for my kid a few years back (with a 16 bit digital CPU though) just to have something physical, with the possibility to be underclocked to extreme values and a bunch of LEDs in key points to illustrate the principle. I could have used an emulator, but something like that is 1000x better as it's bare metal and doesn't have any black magic under the hood.
- shagie 3y agoWhen it was originally released it was a bit less expensive than the current price on it (glad I got one then). https://web.archive.org/web/20220528131517/https://shop.anabrid.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220528131517/https://shop.anab...
- tamaharbor 3y agoI knew digital was just a fad.
- shagie 3y agohttps://mythic.ai https://mythic.ai is an analog chip for doing neural nets. https://youtu.be/GVsUOuSjvcg?t=898 https://youtu.be/GVsUOuSjvcg?t=898 (this is a time stamp'ed link for a video mentioned elsewhere in the comments).
- discardedrefuse 3y agoSaw this a while ago. I don't know enough about math to know if this works as described...I hope it does! A tiny dedicated chip for AI inference jobs is probably the next game changer the industry needs to put AI in everyone's pocket. Too bad OpenAI is going to kill any chance at something like this with regulatory capture.
- mrguyorama 3y agoIf you have an iPhone or a modern Pixel, you already have a dedicated AI accelerator in your pocket.
- discardedrefuse 3y agoActually, I have a Pixel 7 with the Tensor G2. I can't find the tera operations per second on it, but Google has said that its [1] 60% more powerful than their Tensor Coral (4 TOPS at 2W of power). That puts the G2 at about 6.4 TOPS. The Mythic analog chip [2] is pumping 25 TOPS at 3W. For comparison, modern (digital) GPUs are doing 25-100 TOPS at 50W-100W...while costing >$1000. So, its a big jump. [1] https://www.xda-developers.com/google-tensor-g2-changes/ https://www.xda-developers.com/google-tensor-g2-changes/ [2] https://youtu.be/GVsUOuSjvcg?t=1060 https://youtu.be/GVsUOuSjvcg?t=1060
- BSEdlMMldESB 3y agobut what is the 'software' equivalent for this thing? the physical state of all them wires? not very portable
- ulv 3y agopolaroids
- mxdgkat 3y ago[flagged]
- jcpst 3y agoThink of it in a streaming/functional way. Programming would be about signal flow, components that transform, and you get a continuous output.
- jsiva 3y agoYou can model passive circuits with RLC ordinary differential equations (depending on the setup of the equations there's some algorithms such as Runge Kutta to solve them numerically). Afaik you can model some active components with ordinary differential equations, but I wouldn't be surprised if you had to resort to partial differential equations (More or less a "complete" electromagnetic simulation at that point).
- BSEdlMMldESB 3y agoyou're onto something I was looking at some of the open documentation[1] and they show schematics and differential equations alongside each other. I just keep burning out whenever I try to make sense of these things; [1] https://the-analog-thing.org/THAT_First_Steps.pdf https://the-analog-thing.org/THAT_First_Steps.pdf
- gigel82 3y agoNeat, but... this "analog" thing's built with a lot of digital circuitry
- rdlw 3y agoLike what? The 7-segment display and the mode selector?
- bgribble 3y agoVery familiar-looking to anyone who has been following the modular synthesizer renaissance. Modular synths are basically analog computers, just not well-optimized for precision in most cases. All the basic building blocks of THAT are available as modules from a number of boutique manufacturers.
- jcpst 3y agoYeah- as a long time modular synth user I practically drool over stuff like this. But for the money I can just get more synth modules.
- DennisP 3y agoAnd "not well-optimized for precision" is often considered a feature.
- z5h 3y agoI was looking for the modular synth comment(s). That's immediately what came to mind when I saw this. How can I integrate this with my synths.
- dreamcompiler 3y agoAs long as everything is voltage controlled, your voltage ranges match, and your analog computer is set to generate voltages rather than currents you should be able to use an analog computer to generate very wild LFO-type control signals. It might not work fast enough to replace your regular (audio) oscillators however.
- gatane 3y agoIt was so cool to realize that NIN used one for making a song. Caustic had an emulated one with a lot of features, but I dont know if there are other DAWs with similar ones...
- tern 3y agoThe main ones are: - Bitwig - Softube Modular - Cherry Audio Voltage Modular - VCV Rack - miRack - Reaktor Blocks - Nord Modular - Max/MSP BEAP Can't emphasize enough how awesome Eurorack is though
- ftxbro 3y agoi would buy one if it cost ten dollars not five hundred dollars
- TheRealPomax 3y agoBut if folks could also maybe come up with a way to make patch cables not destroy any sense of understandability, that'd be great. (and maybe solve the whole "good luck 'saving' the thing you just made" problem at the same time, too. cheers)
- deutschepost 3y agoVery cool! Albeit I don’t see the educational value if not paired with an oscilloscope and/or loudspeaker. This screams modular system at me. And I think it is much easier to learn what all of these functions do when combining multiple senses.
- spyremeown 3y agoIs 499 EUR for that BOM fair? Genuinely asking... high end SoM modules with carrier boards and a metric ton of software can be obtained by half of that price, and op-amps aren't that costly.
- pfdietz 3y agoMechanical analog computers used in WW2 era warships were quite interesting. https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2020/05/gears-of-war-when-mechanical-analog-computers-ruled-the-waves/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2020/05/gears...
- RobotToaster 3y agoIs it actually open source? I can only find PDF schematics, not source files. The git link takes me to a closed gitlab instance.
- ardoise 3y agoThe value of analogue computation is limited. They are not universal computers. The problem with analogue computers is that there's a limit on the number of consecutive operations that they can perform to produce a useful result. With digital computers, errors can be corrected after each operation. Whereas with an analogue computer, evey step introduces noise which cannot be corrected. It cannot be corrected because in an analogue system any input value is 'valid'. In a digital system input values that are slightly higher or slightly lower than a digit can be corrected to the nearest digit.
- pfdietz 3y agoAlso, making analog computer components requires high precision. With digital components, the individual elements are driven to saturation, so much less precision is needed. This means digital components can be made very small. Indeed, this is why integrated circuits work so well.
- tacotacotaco 3y agoThis recent article talks about advantages of analog computers and their possible uses as coprocessors to digital processors https://www.wired.com/story/unbelievable-zombie-comeback-analog-computing/ https://www.wired.com/story/unbelievable-zombie-comeback-ana...
- diydsp 3y agoAnalog coprocessors are the actual mission of their parent company<1> This computer is their marketing tool! <1> https://www.anabrid.com/ https://www.anabrid.com/
- oersted 3y agoWhile it's true that analog computers have limitations in terms of precision and error correction compared to digital computers, they can still offer some advantages in certain applications. For example, analog computers can be faster and more energy-efficient for specific tasks, such as solving differential equations or simulating physical systems.
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- jamesgill 3y agoI love the idea as a learning tool, but: 1. ~USD $535 isn't exactly 'low-cost' 2. I'm confused who the audience is. It can't be kids--this is too advanced. It can't be engineers (or student engineers)--there are better, more practical learning tools. Maybe people with an extra $500 who just enjoy fiddling around?
- armitron 3y agoNerds with too much disposable income who will buy this, spend maybe 20 minutes total and then put it away to collect dust.
- hobo_in_library 3y agoMy raspberry pi is looking at your post guiltily
- mikepurvis 3y agoTo be fair, though, RPi's price point is well within the impulse-purchase threshold of normal people, let alone wealthy nerds.
- mcv 3y agoSame here. I fear we may be the target demographic for this thing.
- carimura 3y agomine too. at least the box (with pi inside) makes a good stand for a mesh node.
- kleer001 3y agoI could see it being used in classrooms. What level/grade? No idea.
- mikepurvis 3y agoIt definitely has classroom energy, but for that to work out it would need to come with a whole curriculum, textbook, etc. And even then, I think a lot of parents would be asking why this oddball thing vs playing with regular 555 and opamp circuits on a breadboard.
- samtho 3y agoI’ve been toying with the idea of building a “learn analog electronics” course by having the student build a musical synthesizer one stage at a time, starting with dual tone generators that can be made to deliver frequencies and a selectable wave pattern, then through to evelope filters, modulator (which part of it exists as the wave selection from earlier), and all the controls to make it happen. Not sure if this has been done or if it’s a dumb idea.
- TylerE 3y agoThe trickest part I see there is you're going to need some sort of midi input and associated parsing to actually make the thing playable. Or are you thinking of building a keyboard as well. I suppose there are probably MIDI to CV modules out there one could source.
- samtho 3y agoI was going to have them build a rudimentary octave (12 note keyboard segment) but that has been something I’ve been trying to sketch out as well.
- TylerE 3y agoA theremin input maybe? Could even be part of the build experience. No mechanical parts, which is nice, and pitch bends are fun sounds.
- dreamcompiler 3y agoYou could use the D/A on a Raspberry Pi or an Arduino to generate the control voltages.
- TylerE 3y agoNot good enough. Gotta be able to play it. That’s where the fun is.
- cmpalmer52 3y ago
- 7thaccount 3y agoVery cool, but it would need to be closer to $200 for me to openu wallet.
- 908087 3y ago[dead]
- mk_stjames 3y agoA very popular analog computer patchable with 4mm banana jacks was the Comdyna GP-6. I went down a rabbit hole of reverse engineering it from photos and schematics years ago in order to build a version that would fit in a 3U panel for Eurorack modular synth interfacing. Never finished it, but the total BOM was... well, not much. The panel was going to cost more than the board+opamps+passives. I wanted to buy a real Comdyna but I remember the cheapest I found one for sale was ~$700 and I thought that was expensive. Not so much when you compare it to this unit which is housed in just open PCBs and a much smaller format. If you are a student and want to learn a bit more about how operational amplifiers, resistors, and capacitors alone can solve differential equations... you can get an educational license for Matlab for nothing and Simulink can emulate all the analog circuitry you want and more. Another approach might be using the Eurorack simulation software VCV Rack - If there isn't an set of modules you can install that do basic gain, integrators, multipliers, comparators, etc then it would be very easy for someone to write one.
- felixgallo 3y agohttps://github.com/countmodula/VCVRackLunettaModula https://github.com/countmodula/VCVRackLunettaModula
- thx-2718 3y agoQuestion since you appear familiar with math simulation, could you do what you're describing with Matlab with Octave instead?
- ted_dunning 3y agoYes. Easier with Julia, though, because the ODE and PDE support is better and you have better / simpler notation. Performance will be better as well, but for simple problems you can't tell.
- ChrisRackauckas 3y agoFor circuits a lot of them are represented by differential-algebraic equations (DAEs) and require modeling tools in order to handle the high differential index of the systems. This is the reason why they are typically handled via acausal modeling systems which can do index reduction. For Julia, this is the ModelingToolkit portion of the SciML ecosystem (https://docs.sciml.ai/ModelingToolkit/stable/ https://docs.sciml.ai/ModelingToolkit/stable/), and some modeling tools like https://github.com/ModiaSim/Modia.jl https://github.com/ModiaSim/Modia.jl and OpenModelica front-ends https://github.com/OpenModelica/OMJulia.jl https://github.com/OpenModelica/OMJulia.jl.
- aj7 3y agoOpen source? Really? Where’s the schematic?
- fkyoureadthedoc 3y agoIf you are looking for documentation, try clicking the prominent "read the docs" link. Once you do so, you'll notice "THAT schematics" is the very first link after the overview.
- lambda 3y agoSchematics are available https://the-analog-thing.org/docs/dirhtml/rst/schematics/ https://the-analog-thing.org/docs/dirhtml/rst/schematics/ though usually Open Source Hardware refers to releasing the original design files, including schematic and board layout, rather than just PDFs of the schematic: https://www.oshwa.org/definition/ https://www.oshwa.org/definition/
- chillbill 3y ago€524,16 EUR is not affordable
- pugworthy 3y agoReminds me of the old Science Fair Electronic Computer Kit Model No. 28-180 from Radio Shack... https://www.oldcomputermuseum.com/electronic_computer.html https://www.oldcomputermuseum.com/electronic_computer.html I had one as a kid and regret a) that I didn't figure it out more, and b) threw it away at some point.
- JKCalhoun 3y agoThose are a lot simpler (no op-amps, mostly resistances and an analog meter). Here are some links to these I have collected: https://hackaday.io/project/177346-simple-analog-computer-electronic-slide-rule https://hackaday.io/project/177346-simple-analog-computer-el... https://computarium.lcd.lu/photos/albums/EDMUND_ANALOG_COMPUTER/album/index.html https://computarium.lcd.lu/photos/albums/EDMUND_ANALOG_COMPU... https://t-lcarchive.org/american-basic-science-club-analog-computer/ https://t-lcarchive.org/american-basic-science-club-analog-c...
- dang 3y agoRelated: The Analog Thing: An open source, educational, low-cost modern analog computer - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28614840 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28614840 - Sept 2021 (65 comments)
- penguin_booze 3y agoRelated: Versatium's video on analogue computing: https://youtu.be/GVsUOuSjvcg https://youtu.be/GVsUOuSjvcg.
- Animats 3y agoThat's cute. Almost exactly the same capabilities as the tube-era Heathkit EC-1 educational analog computer [1], but much smaller. Analog computers are no fun without an oscilloscope. Once you can see graphs, you get intuition about how the inputs affect the outputs. If you only have a meter, you have to write down data and plot. [1] https://www.analogmuseum.org/library/heathkit_ec1_operation_manual.pdf https://www.analogmuseum.org/library/heathkit_ec1_operation_...
- JKCalhoun 3y agoYeah, wish it at least had an analog meter.
- Animats 3y agoThey should have built in one of these $20 oscilloscopes[1] in place of the LCD meter. And a speaker. Their Analog Thing costs over US$500, after all. Then you'd have a self-contained unit good for student use. [1] https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805426720735.html https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805426720735.html
- diydsp 3y agoThe instructions say to connect to the audio in of a computer.
- pwenzel 3y agoAccording to section 6.1 of the manual, it can be connected to an oscilloscope. https://the-analog-thing.org/THAT_First_Steps.pdf https://the-analog-thing.org/THAT_First_Steps.pdf
- GeorgeTirebiter 3y agoThis is my EC-1 simulating a projectile fired from a cannon, driving a plotter; a Comdyna GP-6 showing 'chaos'; and Joe explaining "Bouncing Ball" on another EC-1, complete with original 3" Heathkit 'scope as output (close-ups of it in operation at then end). 66 sec vid clip from the West Coast Vintage Computer Festival, 2021 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gbF9RZ_UZrAIBq10mJ_SmZru1GtZQ57y/view?usp=drive_link https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gbF9RZ_UZrAIBq10mJ_SmZru1Gt... Some "GlowFETs" in the EC-1, using only filament lighting and a long shutter https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yz1zTdI9rfBqCx4oMTaGNsTzCEHfnwwH/view?usp=drive_link https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yz1zTdI9rfBqCx4oMTaGNsTzCEH... Inside the EC-1 showing the NE-2H neon lights plus other GlowFETs https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YPFjxrtmRunZ5u-JfgcOw3IeRiwQXKyl/view?usp=drive_link https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YPFjxrtmRunZ5u-JfgcOw3IeRiw...
- fit2rule 3y ago[dead]
- spend_thrift 3y agoI just want to know when someone is going to get around to make a single board photonic computer...
- _c3ag 3y agoi wonder why no one commented about Putedata, Csound and Supercollider as a cheap alternative…
- gatane 3y agoA simple analog computer would be a slide rule (or disk). The advantage is that it doesn't need batteries, but usually has very low precision (about 1.5-2ish decimal digits). Hell, you can even print it and have a calculator with mul,div,sin,log,√...
- gatane 3y agoSee the "Doing the math" section https://www.sliderulemuseum.com/ https://www.sliderulemuseum.com/
- cubefox 3y agoQuestion: One problem of current superlarge language models is their high inference cost. Wouldn't that be a perfect application for analog computers, since they are known to be power efficient? As I understand, the weights of a neural network are approximate values anyway, so it probably wouldn't be a problem when the calculations (vector multiplication or something like that?) aren't perfectly precise. I assume this idea has long been considered and doesn't actually work for some reason. Perhaps because implementing an order of hundred billion parameters in an analog computer isn't technically feasible? That's about how many transistors are in a CPU, and those are presumably much simpler to implement than the weights ("synapses") of a neural network. (I know there are special inference accelerator chips, like TPUs or co-processors on smartphone chipsets, but those seem to be fully digital and not actually "neuromorphic".)
- cshimmin 3y agoThis is essentially how the very first neural network, the Perceptron, was implemented in the late 50's. It even has potentiometer dials to set the weights, and they were driven by motors during training! As for feasibility of doing analog inference today, it's an interesting idea and I'm not sure. Billions of parameters would mean billions of wires though, there may be substantial parasitic losses in building such a thing.
- buescher 3y agoCarver Mead tried back in the eighties. There’s a book - and Synaptics.
- cubefox 3y agoThe most advanced form of analog neuromorphic computer seems to be this: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-04992-8 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-04992-8 It makes use of a special ReRAM ("memristor") chip. But, as I suspected, it is far too small to run large language models.
- fulafel 3y ago