5 ms·
Evidence Based Medicine is one of those things that is a good thing, but was pushed so hard by its proponents that it ended up overemphasizing a particular kind
by jbandela1 3y ago
Evidence Based Medicine is one of those things that is a good thing, but was pushed so hard by its proponents that it ended up overemphasizing a particular kind of study as the only real way to know things in medicine.
Yes, absolutely, medicine should be evidence based. Yes, large randomized, double blind, placebo controlled studies provide a lot of information.
However, there are limitations with these kinds of studies.
First, it may not be ethical or practical to study some things in this manner. For example, antibiotics for bacterial pneumonia has not had a randomized, double blind, placebo controlled study.
Famously, there was an article discussing how parachutes in jumping out of airplanes had not been subject to a randomized, double blind, placebo controlled study. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC300808/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC300808/
Later, somebody did that study: https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5094 https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5094 and found that parachutes made no difference, but it is not applicable to any real world case where you would use a parachute.
Which illustrates the second issue with evidence based medicine. Many times, the large trials's main thing they are measuring are different than what you really want to know, or the population they studied has significant differences from the patient who is right in front of you. How to apply the results of the large study to the individual patient in front of you is still more of an art than a science.
Finally, I think there is the example from machine learning. It has turned out that instead of creating more and more rules, feeding lots and lots of data to a neural network ends up performing better in a lot of machine learning cases. In a similar way, an experienced physician who has treated thousands of patients over decades has a lot of implicit knowledge and patterns stored in their (human) neural networks. Yes, these decisions should be informed by the results of trials, but they should not be discounted, which I think that Evidence Based Medicine did in at least a small part. During my residency, I worked with physicians who would examine and talk with a patient and tell me that something is not right and to do more extensive tests which would end up unearthing a hidden infection or other problem that we were able to treat before it caused major problems. They were seeing subtle patterns from decades of experience that might not even be fully captured in the patient's chart, much less a clinical trial without thousands of participants.
So yes, these clinical trials are a very important base for knowledge. But so is physician judgment and experience.
Source: I am a physician.
- jahanpd 3y agoBest comment on the thread.
- Gatsky 3y agoThe biggest issue, IMHO, is that clinical trials are often unethical. This is both in theory and especially in practice. I say this as a physician and clinical trial investigator. EBM deals with this by saying ‘there is no viable alternative’, a remarkable statement of epistemological nihilism that enables much low quality snd pointless research.
- theptip 3y agoCan you give an example of unethical trials where “there was no viable alternative” was what got the trial past an IRB? I’m more familiar with inverse complaints that trials are blocked by red tape and hypothetical concerns that are objectively small in actual QALY harm. (I’m sure this varies by jurisdiction too; I have only heard bad thing about US IRBs)
- justahuman74 3y agoI'd have assumed it was when they give sick people the placebo when they have a reasonable hunch (but not a published study that people trust) that the real medication would actually save them
- Gatsky 3y agoIRBs do not evaluate the value of a research endeavour. They are in fact unable to do this due to lack of knowledge and expertise. They approve trials which fit the mold of trials they have seen before. Why does a clinical trial get done? The main reason is that someone, usually a pharmaceutical or device company, is willing to pay for it. Some recent examples of problems with clinical trials: 1. Using a harmful or deliberately inadequate placebo. https://academic.oup.com/jnci/article/104/4/273/979399 https://academic.oup.com/jnci/article/104/4/273/979399 https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.122.059410 https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.122.0... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34688044/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34688044/ 2. Starting a bunch of clinical trials using a biomarker which turned out to be invalid. https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMoa1214271 https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMoa1214271 3. Endless 'me-too' trials driven by pharma, with a low chance of success. https://www.statnews.com/2019/09/04/me-too-drugs-cancer-clinical-trials/ https://www.statnews.com/2019/09/04/me-too-drugs-cancer-clin...