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In a way, I find this entire saga incredibly funny. There is so much hand wringing and pearl clutching at something that is supposedly in the shadows - this cab
by d3nj4l 3y ago
In a way, I find this entire saga incredibly funny. There is so much hand wringing and pearl clutching at something that is supposedly in the shadows - this cabal of four or five people making decisions - that it makes the entire Rust "community" look juvenile. This is the kind of internecine conflict I should see in Anime discord servers, not about a language whose governance involves multiple major corporations!
- throwawaymaths 3y agoCorporations being childish? Why I never.
- boxed 3y agoSeems similar to how The Unredacted was cancelled at Sundance, a much more high profile and internationally relevant affair.
- twelfthnight 3y agoWish we had more role models these days who were willing to disagree with decisions and work to fix them rather than loudly resign or point fingers. Feels like there is a lot of pressure these days that if you are part of a "bad" system then _you_ are bad, even if you are trying to improve it from the inside. So it's understandable people quit instead of taking on the burden of having to prove their "goodness", it's just a shame our media/algorithms lazily spread outrage rather than spotlight diligence and compromise.
- raverbashing 3y agoI feel that some people exceed in technical prowess while lacking in emotional maturity and intelligence
- caust1c 3y agoGolang has lots of good examples of design discussions without vitriol in their RFCs and proposals. There is the occasional bikeshedding and needless bickering granted, but it mostly stays civil and is the most mature language community I've ever had the pleasure of being a part of.
- Gwypaas 3y agoBenevolent dictators make things way easier.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- euiq 3y agoClearly the solution is to clone Russ Cox.
- Agingcoder 3y agoThat made me laugh thanks.
- biomcgary 3y agoI think there might be a connection between Go's pragmatism and the culture fostered around it and Rust's correctness and its culture. On the other hand, it could be that Google owning Go makes the bigger difference. I know that Ian Lance Taylor created several versions of generics that got shot down, which must have been frustrating. However, I don't remember hearing the slightest bit of internal conflict from the core team. (I pick on generics because it was the largest and longest "conflict" in Go's history.) The primary language developers/owners work at the same company, so presumably they have more bandwidth (behind closed doors) and more financial incentive to provide a united front. Or, they're just a pragmatic group of engineers with drama turned to -11.
- HideousKojima 3y agoSimilarly, in the C#/.NET community, most of the drama fits one of the following two archetypes: 1) MS taking control of something the community doesn't want them taking control of 2) Important open source third party library switching to a proprietary license Rarely do you see drama centered around specific individuals like you see in the Rust or JavaScript communities. So I think that lends some further credence to your theory that the design goals of the language help foster specific cultures around them.
- Klonoar 3y ago> Wish we had more role models these days who were willing to disagree with decisions and work to fix them rather than loudly resign or point fingers. You're kind of stating this as if nobody in the Rust ecosystem tries that approach first.
- lolinder 3y agoI took it as referring to the world in general, not Rust specifically. It happens every day in the news that someone loudly resigns to make their point. It's much less common that you see an article about how so-and-so spent five years of their life working hard to change a culture from the inside and finally is seeing results.
- Klonoar 3y agoYou can certainly try to view it that way, but I would submit that, at best, you're being overly charitable regarding interpretation when the very thread we're on is centered on discussing issues within the Rust ecosystem itself.
- lolinder 3y agoOh, they're certainly meaning it to also refer to the situation at hand. I took it as "I wish we had more role models that would stay in and stand up, because the people loudly resigning in this case are copying others they've seen loudly resign."
- twelfthnight 3y agololinder is exactly right on what I meant to say (including what they said in the sibling post to this comment). But I hear your point, too, Klonoar. It's definitely worth pointing out that people can have good reasons for "going public" after realizing they couldn't fix things from the inside.
- pg_1234 3y agoThe "don't leave, stay and fix things from the inside" pitch is how the political schemers try to pull the tech talent back into an arena where they can be worn down into submission, so that their skills can be co-opted by those whose only real talent is to steal the productivity of others. The only way to free a project from such entrenched rot is an ultimatum; "You can have the builders or the schemers, but not both".
- mordae 3y agoNot just tech.
- twelfthnight 3y agoAgree with you that in the case of entrenched rot there's not much that "stay and fix things from the inside" can do to help. I just don't think that the Rust community/leadership has gotten to that point. OP's blog seems to support that, too: > I was able to reassure myself, by checking these private discussion places, that there were good people, fighting for the right thing to be done. That things weren’t irremediably broken. That there was hope for improvement in the near future.
- kbelder 3y ago“If you saw Atlas, the giant who holds the world on his shoulders, if you saw that he stood, blood running down his chest, his knees buckling, his arms trembling but still trying to hold the world aloft with the last of his strength, and the greater his effort the heavier the world bore down upon his shoulders - What would you tell him?" I…don't know. What…could he do? What would you tell him?" To shrug.”
- vram22 3y ago[flagged]
- simplify 3y agoAgreed. Evil wins because good does nothing. Or in this case, evil reigns because good resigns.
- bakugo 3y ago[flagged]
- sebzim4500 3y agoProbably, basically every prominent rust dev has an anime profile picture.
- xbar 3y agoI have different feelings.
- xoac 3y agoAny reccomendations for Anime discord channels?
- dmonitor 3y agoYes. Join none of them.
- tmtvl 3y agoOh come now, surely there must be one good... well, one decent... one not entirely terrible one out there, right?
- pas 3y agoIt doesn't seems hard to create a good one. Just post Akira pictures and Tetsuo memes, and that's it. What else would anyone ever want from an anime Discord? Okay, okay, a few threads about the NGE remakes/rebuilds from time to time. But no mention of Netflix disaster shenanigans, only Edgerunners. Well, okay, whatever the new GitS SAC thing was it was pretty good, so sometimes that too.
- conradludgate 3y agoThe Rust community server is pretty fun
- psychphysic 3y agoThese are the HN interactions I love.
- d3nj4l 3y agoMost discords you can find on the discover tab are too big to be fun, so I’d suggest looking for communities around specific anime you like and branching from there.
- DoneWithAllThat 3y ago[flagged]
- tra3 3y agoAre you suggesting there’s a difference in how conflict is handled in major corps vs anime discords? I think you’re doing a disservice to anime discords everywhere…
- meindnoch 3y ago>This is the kind of internecine conflict I should see in Anime discord servers Anime/furry culture has a significant overlap with the Rust community as far as I can tell as an outsider. E.g. there was that guy developing a Linux GPU driver for M1 Macs, narrating it with an anime "waifu" avatar and a speech plugin that makes you sound like a little girl from a Japanese cartoon.
- switch007 3y agoOh that’s what was going on. I was curious but never enough to dig. That’s… interesting. Each to their own I guess
- robin_reala 3y agos/guy/woman
- 2h 3y agouhh: https://youtube.com/watch?v=LonzMviFCNs https://youtube.com/watch?v=LonzMviFCNs
- meindnoch 3y agoHuh? A cursory google search says it's a guy called Hector Marcan. Is this wrong?
- runjake 3y agoAs far as I know, this person, who goes by “Asahi Lina” is not Hector Marcan.
- mustache_kimono 3y agoI think the widespread belief is Asahi Lina is an avatar for Hector.
- runjake 3y ago
- amelius 3y agoThe corporations are just waiting for the meat to be thrown their way.
- andrei_says_ 3y ago> This is the kind of internecine conflict I should see in Anime discord servers, not about a language whose governance involves multiple major corporations! I love this. On one hand this is an indicator for our expectations. Adult stuff should be handled by adults, with wisdom and maturity. On the other hand it is a sample of reality as it is (distinct from the shoulds we project) - no, corporations and adult organizations are not led/ruled by mature people, and not everyone acts wisely all of the time. This is the reality. I like to believe that acknowledging that and creating organizations to be resilient in the context of immaturity, pettiness, confusion… humanity(!) is the way. We do have some examples of nature leadership but these are the exceptions to the rule. People are people, let’s figure in their humanity. So what I’m interested in are org structures supporting and correcting for fairness, wisdom, maturity.
- Tao3300 3y agoThere's a little bit of a "getting out at the right time so I can say I was there when it was good" vibe to it. As a total Rust outsider I can understand. Last time I tried to learn it, it seemed to prefer trading one set of problems ubiquitous to computing for a worse set unique to its niche. I don't know if people really like it or just want to be seen liking it, but I'd rather keep turning the wheel that makes Java code and have time for my other interests.
- pas 3y agoRust is super amazing coming from C/C++/Python, but it's a bit meh coming from Scala. Of course no JVM, instant startup, small memory footprint, etc. etc. are nice, but also no JVM, no G1/Shenandoah/Z GC, no reflection, introspection, heapmap, etc. etc. :)