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I’ll risk it and defend marriage to this crowd. To me getting married was about getting out of myself. As someone who got married later in life, I’d spent decad

I’ll risk it and defend marriage to this crowd. To me getting married was about getting out of myself. As someone who got married later in life, I’d spent decades living only for myself, doing what I wanted to do when I wanted to do it. Relationships were shallow and lasted only so long as convenient. By choosing to get married and intentional build a family, I knew I was sacrificing a lot of ego and choosing to give up a lot of freedom and self. But I was ready to do it. I firmly believe what we’ve created is greater than either one of us, and is worth the irritations sacrifice.

nunobrito 3y ago
Fully agreed.
paulryanrogers 3y ago
How much of that was making the marriage official or just committing to a long-term partner? I know someone who was with their partner for years, and has been engaged for years more. I've come to the understanding they'll likely never actually marry. They appear to just want some negotiated commitment. Actual marriage appears to carry strings they're reluctant to accept. (Funds appear to be kept separate as well.)
- gameman144 3y ago
  I can speak to this in some degree: marriage is much more significant than a negotiated commitment for me personally. A negotiated commitment takes a specific form (the terms of the negotiation) but a marriage defines a commitment to be committed. I've heard some folks of my generation say things like "we got divorced because we fell out of love", which sharply contrasts with my view of marriage and falls more in line with a standard committed relationship. To me, a marriage is a commitment to consistently try to fall back in love and work through things, even at those points you might otherwise quit. Granted, I'm a religious guy and my view on marriage is flavored from that perspective, but making the marriage official was certainly key to the commitment for me personally.
  - paulryanrogers 3y ago
    Having known unhappily married and religious family (and leaving the faith myself), I can understand folks falling permanently out of love. And IMO they're likely better apart than locked in decades of fruitless trying. Anyway, thanks for sharing, and I'd agree that a frivolous marriage sounds like a pointless exercise.
    - throwaway1492 3y ago
      Falling in or out of love is really a lot of fantasy BS though really. Disney marketing. Anyone in a long term relationship doesn’t love the other all the time, wether married or not. Marriage is about declaring to your social group and each other you’ve decided to strive and commit to something greater than yourself.
      - bscphil 3y ago
        > Marriage is about declaring to your social group and each other you’ve decided to strive and commit to something greater than yourself. I think most people can accept this belief while still thinking that there ought to be an out for two people who find themselves deeply unhappy together for a long period of time. Committing to something should very rarely be an absolute thing, and most people (even those who accept and respect marriage as a social institution) don't think that marriage should be one of those things. That's compatible with thinking (as you say in your OP) that most romantic relationships are shallow and not ultimately very meaningful, and wanting something more.
      - noirbot 3y ago
        Yea, and as someone who's had their social group rent in half twice in recent years because of committed marriages falling apart, I'm pretty happy with less of my friends making me meet their new partner and integrate them into my life before having an acrimonious breakup after 1-5 years. I don't care if they love each other. I care that they're not making me pick sides and often causing me to deal with people I like moving away or quitting common hobbies so they can avoid someone they've gone from loving to loathing.
silverquiet 3y ago
Try putting "I'd like someone willing to sacrifice a lot of ego and choose to give up a lot of freedom and self" into Tinder and see how it goes. And as bad as the dating apps are, I never got the impression that people were evaluating each other on much more than superficial metrics in the old school dating world anyway.
- madrox 3y ago
  In my experience, all dating is superficial in the beginning, and attempting to short-circuit that process never really works in the long run. You can't speedrun getting to know someone. This is why "dating milestones" are such a trope.
  - Obscurity4340 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - andromeduck 3y ago
    Idk about that. If interests are aligned and chemistry is okay, things tend to just work out.
- everdrive 3y ago
  Tinder is not a place to find a spouse. Maybe some outliers can and have. But for the vast majority of people, Tinder is a place to be ignored. For a plurality of women and a minority of men, Tinder is a place to schedule hookups.
ameminator 3y ago
I can sacrifice my ego through meditation and acts of charity/volunteer work. No need to risk half of my current assets and future income on the whims of some potentially capricious other person, who probably doesn't like me very much anyways. Good luck to you, however.
- DirectorKrennic 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - ameminator 3y ago
    Every week 2 hours at a local organization. There are other ways in which i give back to my family and my community, which i don't intend to discuss here. Further, on this point, i do not need to justify these to you or any internet stranger. Who are you to police others and their morality? I never said what gender i was or what gender i was interested in. I do know that i would probably earn a higher salary than my partner, which would disfavor me in a divorce. Perhaps it is you with the prejudice, assuming that women would earn less? Finally, people in general are capricious. People change all the time. It seems like a large gamble to make on another person, based essentially how they feel. Either way, maybe you should examine your own self before judging others. Humility has intrinsic value in and of itself and can be found in many places.
    - personperson 3y ago
      I’m pretty pro family but I have to admit you just absolutely smoked ‘em
    - jackvalentine 3y ago
      > …which i don't intend to discuss here. Further, on this point, i do not need to justify these to you or any internet stranger. Who are you to police others and their morality? Pretty rich to come in so hot against something and then when questioned freak out like that.
    - insamniac 3y ago
23B1 3y ago
Starve the ego, feed the soul.
- bourneavent 3y ago
  [dead]
627467 3y ago
> living only for myself, doing what I wanted to do when I wanted to do it. This. And ultimately having kids with this person is another ego-exposing (and hopefully ego busting - but that's not guaranteed) exercise that contemporary societies gave up trying with varying excuses ranging "economical" to "climate saving" reasons.
- illiac786 3y ago
  Do you see a lot the argument that having kids is bad for the environment? Can I ask where? I do not disagree, I just rarely hear it, it's something people are afraid to day out loud in my social network, it's socially unacceptable, but it's changing a bit.
  - fractallyte 3y ago
    A lot of links and discussion on this account: https://twitter.com/Sashkapapashka https://twitter.com/Sashkapapashka
    - illiac786 3y ago
      “life is futile and will inevitably lead to suffering, decay and death”. Ok, but she really is of the opinion that life in general is futile, independently of the state of our planet… I mean life has always lead to death and decay, and had always meant suffering (amonst other things), especially thousands of years ago. Not saying what she says is meaningless, but she’s not really about saving the planet.
  - Glawen 3y ago
    When I ask younger people why they don't want children, many answer me that they don't want to raise children in a world doomed due to global warming. It is not exactly the same argument, but the idea that children are bad for the environment is implied (at least that's how I understand it)
    - illiac786 3y ago
bourneavent 3y ago
[dead]
cultofmetatron 3y ago
[flagged]
- ajkjk 3y ago
  well if those are your beliefs about marriage then it's no surprise you don't like it, but they don't.. have to be... your beliefs. Huge numbers of people would vehemently argue with you if you said those beliefs in front of them. Maybe you should give them a chance to convince you otherwise?
- TheCoelacanth 3y ago
  Marriage itself is not really more of a risk to a man than a woman. Shared property from the marriage will get divided up, but that affects women the same as men. Having children is a slight risk because custody is a bit more likely to be given to women than men, so men are a bit more likely to have to pay child support. Having a spouse who stops working to take care of children is a large risk for both partners. One risks having to pay alimony to support the non-working spouse; the other risks losing their earning potential from time spent out of the workforce.
  - za3faran 3y ago
    > Shared property from the marriage will get divided up, but that affects women the same as men. That mainly seems to be an issue in the west and those who follow their way.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    > Having children is a slight risk because custody is a bit more likely to be given to women than men, so men are a bit more likely to have to pay child support. Having a child is also more than a slight risk to the woman whose body is put through drastic change with unpredictable consequences and are still expected to keep working the same as before.
  - gregytuq 3y ago
    [flagged]
- 3y ago
Trasmatta 3y ago
Marriage isn’t a pre-requisite for any of that
- JenrHywy 3y ago
  I agree: the essential component is vulnerable commitment to something (better: someone) outside of yourself. Marriage happens to be a structure that society has evolved over time that helps people find that.
bourneavent 3y ago
[dead]
nunez 3y ago
Agreed; 100%. Being married has been awesome. Best decision I ever made. Some days are hard, sure, but that's part of living with someone who is not you. We come out as better people in the end.
AllegedAlec 3y ago
> Relationships were shallow and lasted only so long as convenient. I think this is a big thing, and one that in the end will ruin us as a society if we let it. There's something innately wrong about this constant rat-race I see in some friends where they effectively say "oh, there's something wrong with this partner that in my previous X relationships I didn't see before. let's go find another one". Modern communication methods (social media and dating apps in particular) have created a situation where you can constantly compare your partner to the rest of the world, while at the same time (theoretically, for most people I'd argue partner choice hasn't increased at all, or even decreased) widening the dating pool. The idea of commitment becomes... Alien, because it's so easy to just go and trade her in for a newer/better model, not realizing that we're all flawed in our own particular way and that part of a relationship is sticking with eachother and growing because of that.
- grecy 3y ago
  A friend once told me to be very careful, because it’s too easy to compare your current parter to the best attributes of all previous ones. Ie she’s not as smart as Michelle and not as funny as Jane and not as considerate as Mary. Eventually, you start looking for the absolute best in every way, which is probably never going to exist
  - AllegedAlec 3y ago
    Yup. It puts some truth in the things people say about pair bonding, even if biologically it doesn't entirely fit. The default assumption becomes under this (fairly natural) behaviour that the more partners you have had generally the less likely you will be to make a next relationship last.
laurencerowe 3y ago
You seem to be describing a committed relationship? For me the significant markers of committed relationships were first moving in together, then perhaps buying a home together (in those places where that was still affordable), and then for those that wanted them and by far the most important having children together. Many of my friends and family have gotten married along the way too but it never felt like a big deal because by the point they got married they'd already been together for several years. It was a nice opportunity for a celebration! But having children together seems the far greater commitment. Marriages may end but even if you split up you'll still be parents together. I grew up in a far less religious society than the US so maybe this just reflects a different cultural background. The US has always been more religious than Europe while also having far higher rates of teen births and children living in single parent households. But US rates of religious identification and teen births have both been falling rapidly over the past couple of decades.
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 3y ago
  Marriage, apart from a nice opportunity of celebration, is a legal contract.
  - n4r9 3y ago
    In my experience the legal nature of it is not what encourages one to get outside of oneself, as the original reply describes.
  - Veen 3y ago
    It's also, and perhaps primarily, a vow.
    - WastingMyTime89 3y ago
      Extremely American way of looking at it. Here in France most of my friends have been in committed relationships and living together for years, some have children, only one couple is married. Marriage is an holdover from a time far removed which is both utterly useless and slightly paternalistic.
doix 3y ago
> I’d spent decades living only for myself, doing what I wanted to do when I wanted to do it Interestingly, this is why I broke up with a fairly long term partner. I just wanted to do what I want when I wanted to do it. We didn't have any kids, so that was easy. But I lost a bunch of money from our shared house/possessions, I just let them have almost everything because I didn't care too much. Maybe I did it in the wrong order, and if I spent decades doing what I wanted first, things would have been different. But right now, the ability to do what I want when I want is awesome and I couldn't be happier.
- lapcat 3y ago
  > Maybe I did it in the wrong order, and if I spent decades doing what I wanted first, things would have been different. Probably, yes.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    In my cohort, there seem to be a ton of people who have spend roughly 2 decades doing what they want to, and do not seem to want to give that up ever.
chrsw 3y ago
I never got married but for me personally, I don't look at it as a choice, I look at it as an abject failure.
- AnimalMuppet 3y ago
  I don't know about that. Being married to the wrong person can be far worse than never marrying. If you never found someone who was right for you, not forcing the issue was wisdom, not failure. (If you never could make a relationship work because you're lousy at relationships, that is more your failure. But if you're in the first paragraph, you're probably feeling that you're in the second, and you may not be.)
SergeAx 3y ago
There are lots of ways to dedicate oneself to a greater cause. I would say that marriage is one of the less, if no least impactful forms of giving back to society.
sangnoir 3y ago
> I’ll risk it and defend marriage to this crowd It's not this crowd you should be defending against - it's the profiteers. Extraction of profits has been elevated above everything else and I feel the social contract between industry and individuals has been violated. Salaries are depressed and everything is so expensive, people need to have worked-out a decent-paying career before they consider getting married and/or kids, so people are getting married later in life, or not getting married at all because the dating pool gets shallower with age. The societal effects of over-extracting profits are ging to be catastrophic, but short-termism is now built-in.
- anon291 3y ago
  Marriage and family and community are historically preventative of the types of exploitative individuals and groups you talk about. In your model the causation is that profiteers caused the breakdown of marriage but we shouldn't confuse correlation with causation. It's also plausible that the decline of marriage caused the preponderance of profiteers. Indeed given the modern day 'profit above all else mentality' that seems to pervade many businesses thoughts these days, and the length of history of marriage, I'd say the latter is more likely. As for dual income. I'm sorry I simply don't believe it. In my conservative Catholic circle in a high cost of living area, I'm seeing many families with almost a dozen kids where only dad is working (my wife and I included). Dad is not even a software engineer making high six figures. In many families the father's are totally normal incomes and we have a fair share of people making below average. Two incomes is a choice. There is no difference in average income between the two groups yet one has different values. One difference is the mother's are very productive amongst themselves getting things done economically.
  - nunobrito 3y ago
    That goes against what most people advocate as reason for women to work. I live between Germany and Portugal, where in both countries is similar to what you describe. It is perfectly possible to raise a large family with only the father having a salary. Today most couples have the mindset of buying a house for hundreds of thousand euros, pay tens of thousands for a car and also afford vacation to Thailand or whatever frivolous location. Choosing a more modest location to live, buying second-hand cars without debt, having the wife cooking and taking care of the children is already a huge difference. What is not measured if the happiness of the woman in watching her children grow, that is truly fantastic. Most media favor an "empowerment" rather than presenting as option a traditional lifestyle. Took me decades to understand this and guide my own family towards a saner lifestyle away from frivolous consuming habits.
thefz 3y ago
> Relationships were shallow and lasted only so long as convenient. Some people don't value that and so, a life married would be a burden.

nunobrito 3y ago

Fully agreed.

paulryanrogers 3y ago

How much of that was making the marriage official or just committing to a long-term partner? I know someone who was with their partner for years, and has been engaged for years more. I've come to the understanding they'll likely never actually marry. They appear to just want some negotiated commitment. Actual marriage appears to carry strings they're reluctant to accept. (Funds appear to be kept separate as well.)

gameman144 3y ago
I can speak to this in some degree: marriage is much more significant than a negotiated commitment for me personally. A negotiated commitment takes a specific form (the terms of the negotiation) but a marriage defines a commitment to be committed. I've heard some folks of my generation say things like "we got divorced because we fell out of love", which sharply contrasts with my view of marriage and falls more in line with a standard committed relationship. To me, a marriage is a commitment to consistently try to fall back in love and work through things, even at those points you might otherwise quit. Granted, I'm a religious guy and my view on marriage is flavored from that perspective, but making the marriage official was certainly key to the commitment for me personally.
- paulryanrogers 3y ago
  Having known unhappily married and religious family (and leaving the faith myself), I can understand folks falling permanently out of love. And IMO they're likely better apart than locked in decades of fruitless trying. Anyway, thanks for sharing, and I'd agree that a frivolous marriage sounds like a pointless exercise.
  - throwaway1492 3y ago
    Falling in or out of love is really a lot of fantasy BS though really. Disney marketing. Anyone in a long term relationship doesn’t love the other all the time, wether married or not. Marriage is about declaring to your social group and each other you’ve decided to strive and commit to something greater than yourself.
    - bscphil 3y ago
      > Marriage is about declaring to your social group and each other you’ve decided to strive and commit to something greater than yourself. I think most people can accept this belief while still thinking that there ought to be an out for two people who find themselves deeply unhappy together for a long period of time. Committing to something should very rarely be an absolute thing, and most people (even those who accept and respect marriage as a social institution) don't think that marriage should be one of those things. That's compatible with thinking (as you say in your OP) that most romantic relationships are shallow and not ultimately very meaningful, and wanting something more.
    - noirbot 3y ago
      Yea, and as someone who's had their social group rent in half twice in recent years because of committed marriages falling apart, I'm pretty happy with less of my friends making me meet their new partner and integrate them into my life before having an acrimonious breakup after 1-5 years. I don't care if they love each other. I care that they're not making me pick sides and often causing me to deal with people I like moving away or quitting common hobbies so they can avoid someone they've gone from loving to loathing.

silverquiet 3y ago

Try putting "I'd like someone willing to sacrifice a lot of ego and choose to give up a lot of freedom and self" into Tinder and see how it goes. And as bad as the dating apps are, I never got the impression that people were evaluating each other on much more than superficial metrics in the old school dating world anyway.

madrox 3y ago
In my experience, all dating is superficial in the beginning, and attempting to short-circuit that process never really works in the long run. You can't speedrun getting to know someone. This is why "dating milestones" are such a trope.
- Obscurity4340 3y ago
  [flagged]
- andromeduck 3y ago
  Idk about that. If interests are aligned and chemistry is okay, things tend to just work out.
everdrive 3y ago
Tinder is not a place to find a spouse. Maybe some outliers can and have. But for the vast majority of people, Tinder is a place to be ignored. For a plurality of women and a minority of men, Tinder is a place to schedule hookups.

ameminator 3y ago

I can sacrifice my ego through meditation and acts of charity/volunteer work. No need to risk half of my current assets and future income on the whims of some potentially capricious other person, who probably doesn't like me very much anyways. Good luck to you, however.

DirectorKrennic 3y ago
[flagged]
- ameminator 3y ago
  Every week 2 hours at a local organization. There are other ways in which i give back to my family and my community, which i don't intend to discuss here. Further, on this point, i do not need to justify these to you or any internet stranger. Who are you to police others and their morality? I never said what gender i was or what gender i was interested in. I do know that i would probably earn a higher salary than my partner, which would disfavor me in a divorce. Perhaps it is you with the prejudice, assuming that women would earn less? Finally, people in general are capricious. People change all the time. It seems like a large gamble to make on another person, based essentially how they feel. Either way, maybe you should examine your own self before judging others. Humility has intrinsic value in and of itself and can be found in many places.
  - personperson 3y ago
    I’m pretty pro family but I have to admit you just absolutely smoked ‘em
  - jackvalentine 3y ago
    > …which i don't intend to discuss here. Further, on this point, i do not need to justify these to you or any internet stranger. Who are you to police others and their morality? Pretty rich to come in so hot against something and then when questioned freak out like that.
  - insamniac 3y ago

23B1 3y ago

Starve the ego, feed the soul.

bourneavent 3y ago
[dead]

627467 3y ago

> living only for myself, doing what I wanted to do when I wanted to do it. This. And ultimately having kids with this person is another ego-exposing (and hopefully ego busting - but that's not guaranteed) exercise that contemporary societies gave up trying with varying excuses ranging "economical" to "climate saving" reasons.

illiac786 3y ago
Do you see a lot the argument that having kids is bad for the environment? Can I ask where? I do not disagree, I just rarely hear it, it's something people are afraid to day out loud in my social network, it's socially unacceptable, but it's changing a bit.
- fractallyte 3y ago
  A lot of links and discussion on this account: https://twitter.com/Sashkapapashka https://twitter.com/Sashkapapashka
  - illiac786 3y ago
    “life is futile and will inevitably lead to suffering, decay and death”. Ok, but she really is of the opinion that life in general is futile, independently of the state of our planet… I mean life has always lead to death and decay, and had always meant suffering (amonst other things), especially thousands of years ago. Not saying what she says is meaningless, but she’s not really about saving the planet.
- Glawen 3y ago
  When I ask younger people why they don't want children, many answer me that they don't want to raise children in a world doomed due to global warming. It is not exactly the same argument, but the idea that children are bad for the environment is implied (at least that's how I understand it)
  - illiac786 3y ago

bourneavent 3y ago

[dead]

cultofmetatron 3y ago

[flagged]

ajkjk 3y ago
well if those are your beliefs about marriage then it's no surprise you don't like it, but they don't.. have to be... your beliefs. Huge numbers of people would vehemently argue with you if you said those beliefs in front of them. Maybe you should give them a chance to convince you otherwise?
TheCoelacanth 3y ago
Marriage itself is not really more of a risk to a man than a woman. Shared property from the marriage will get divided up, but that affects women the same as men. Having children is a slight risk because custody is a bit more likely to be given to women than men, so men are a bit more likely to have to pay child support. Having a spouse who stops working to take care of children is a large risk for both partners. One risks having to pay alimony to support the non-working spouse; the other risks losing their earning potential from time spent out of the workforce.
- za3faran 3y ago
  > Shared property from the marriage will get divided up, but that affects women the same as men. That mainly seems to be an issue in the west and those who follow their way.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  > Having children is a slight risk because custody is a bit more likely to be given to women than men, so men are a bit more likely to have to pay child support. Having a child is also more than a slight risk to the woman whose body is put through drastic change with unpredictable consequences and are still expected to keep working the same as before.
- gregytuq 3y ago
  [flagged]
3y ago

Trasmatta 3y ago

Marriage isn’t a pre-requisite for any of that

JenrHywy 3y ago
I agree: the essential component is vulnerable commitment to something (better: someone) outside of yourself. Marriage happens to be a structure that society has evolved over time that helps people find that.

bourneavent 3y ago

[dead]

nunez 3y ago

Agreed; 100%. Being married has been awesome. Best decision I ever made. Some days are hard, sure, but that's part of living with someone who is not you. We come out as better people in the end.

AllegedAlec 3y ago

> Relationships were shallow and lasted only so long as convenient. I think this is a big thing, and one that in the end will ruin us as a society if we let it. There's something innately wrong about this constant rat-race I see in some friends where they effectively say "oh, there's something wrong with this partner that in my previous X relationships I didn't see before. let's go find another one". Modern communication methods (social media and dating apps in particular) have created a situation where you can constantly compare your partner to the rest of the world, while at the same time (theoretically, for most people I'd argue partner choice hasn't increased at all, or even decreased) widening the dating pool. The idea of commitment becomes... Alien, because it's so easy to just go and trade her in for a newer/better model, not realizing that we're all flawed in our own particular way and that part of a relationship is sticking with eachother and growing because of that.

grecy 3y ago
A friend once told me to be very careful, because it’s too easy to compare your current parter to the best attributes of all previous ones. Ie she’s not as smart as Michelle and not as funny as Jane and not as considerate as Mary. Eventually, you start looking for the absolute best in every way, which is probably never going to exist
- AllegedAlec 3y ago
  Yup. It puts some truth in the things people say about pair bonding, even if biologically it doesn't entirely fit. The default assumption becomes under this (fairly natural) behaviour that the more partners you have had generally the less likely you will be to make a next relationship last.

laurencerowe 3y ago

You seem to be describing a committed relationship? For me the significant markers of committed relationships were first moving in together, then perhaps buying a home together (in those places where that was still affordable), and then for those that wanted them and by far the most important having children together. Many of my friends and family have gotten married along the way too but it never felt like a big deal because by the point they got married they'd already been together for several years. It was a nice opportunity for a celebration! But having children together seems the far greater commitment. Marriages may end but even if you split up you'll still be parents together. I grew up in a far less religious society than the US so maybe this just reflects a different cultural background. The US has always been more religious than Europe while also having far higher rates of teen births and children living in single parent households. But US rates of religious identification and teen births have both been falling rapidly over the past couple of decades.

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 3y ago
Marriage, apart from a nice opportunity of celebration, is a legal contract.
- n4r9 3y ago
  In my experience the legal nature of it is not what encourages one to get outside of oneself, as the original reply describes.
- Veen 3y ago
  It's also, and perhaps primarily, a vow.
  - WastingMyTime89 3y ago
    Extremely American way of looking at it. Here in France most of my friends have been in committed relationships and living together for years, some have children, only one couple is married. Marriage is an holdover from a time far removed which is both utterly useless and slightly paternalistic.

doix 3y ago

> I’d spent decades living only for myself, doing what I wanted to do when I wanted to do it Interestingly, this is why I broke up with a fairly long term partner. I just wanted to do what I want when I wanted to do it. We didn't have any kids, so that was easy. But I lost a bunch of money from our shared house/possessions, I just let them have almost everything because I didn't care too much. Maybe I did it in the wrong order, and if I spent decades doing what I wanted first, things would have been different. But right now, the ability to do what I want when I want is awesome and I couldn't be happier.

lapcat 3y ago
> Maybe I did it in the wrong order, and if I spent decades doing what I wanted first, things would have been different. Probably, yes.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  In my cohort, there seem to be a ton of people who have spend roughly 2 decades doing what they want to, and do not seem to want to give that up ever.

chrsw 3y ago

I never got married but for me personally, I don't look at it as a choice, I look at it as an abject failure.

AnimalMuppet 3y ago
I don't know about that. Being married to the wrong person can be far worse than never marrying. If you never found someone who was right for you, not forcing the issue was wisdom, not failure. (If you never could make a relationship work because you're lousy at relationships, that is more your failure. But if you're in the first paragraph, you're probably feeling that you're in the second, and you may not be.)

SergeAx 3y ago

There are lots of ways to dedicate oneself to a greater cause. I would say that marriage is one of the less, if no least impactful forms of giving back to society.

sangnoir 3y ago

> I’ll risk it and defend marriage to this crowd It's not this crowd you should be defending against - it's the profiteers. Extraction of profits has been elevated above everything else and I feel the social contract between industry and individuals has been violated. Salaries are depressed and everything is so expensive, people need to have worked-out a decent-paying career before they consider getting married and/or kids, so people are getting married later in life, or not getting married at all because the dating pool gets shallower with age. The societal effects of over-extracting profits are ging to be catastrophic, but short-termism is now built-in.

anon291 3y ago
Marriage and family and community are historically preventative of the types of exploitative individuals and groups you talk about. In your model the causation is that profiteers caused the breakdown of marriage but we shouldn't confuse correlation with causation. It's also plausible that the decline of marriage caused the preponderance of profiteers. Indeed given the modern day 'profit above all else mentality' that seems to pervade many businesses thoughts these days, and the length of history of marriage, I'd say the latter is more likely. As for dual income. I'm sorry I simply don't believe it. In my conservative Catholic circle in a high cost of living area, I'm seeing many families with almost a dozen kids where only dad is working (my wife and I included). Dad is not even a software engineer making high six figures. In many families the father's are totally normal incomes and we have a fair share of people making below average. Two incomes is a choice. There is no difference in average income between the two groups yet one has different values. One difference is the mother's are very productive amongst themselves getting things done economically.
- nunobrito 3y ago
  That goes against what most people advocate as reason for women to work. I live between Germany and Portugal, where in both countries is similar to what you describe. It is perfectly possible to raise a large family with only the father having a salary. Today most couples have the mindset of buying a house for hundreds of thousand euros, pay tens of thousands for a car and also afford vacation to Thailand or whatever frivolous location. Choosing a more modest location to live, buying second-hand cars without debt, having the wife cooking and taking care of the children is already a huge difference. What is not measured if the happiness of the woman in watching her children grow, that is truly fantastic. Most media favor an "empowerment" rather than presenting as option a traditional lifestyle. Took me decades to understand this and guide my own family towards a saner lifestyle away from frivolous consuming habits.

thefz 3y ago

> Relationships were shallow and lasted only so long as convenient. Some people don't value that and so, a life married would be a burden.