6 ms·

Also, lots of people high up in Rust have a background in JavaScript, where drama is common, which I believe has helped normalise it as a mode of social interac

by twic 3y ago

Also, lots of people high up in Rust have a background in JavaScript, where drama is common, which I believe has helped normalise it as a mode of social interaction.

scns 3y ago
Drama is common in human Comunnities.
- erikerikson 3y ago
  Your Bayes is showing.
- bcrosby95 3y ago
  In high school.
- 127 3y ago
  Only in ones that are not based on merit and long term relationships.
  - lazyasciiart 3y ago
    Can you give an example of one that is?
  - spaetzleesser 3y ago
    Are there any communities that are really based on merit?
    - spangry 3y ago
      Pretty much every human community has to be to some extent, with the exception of communities that face no external competition. Non-meritorious communities subject to competition quickly disappear.
      - toofy 3y ago
        “…to some extent…” is, i think, the most important piece of your reply. sure, merit plays some kind of role, but so do many other things. what so many comments in this discussion (and every other discussion surrounding this issue over and over and over again ad nauseum) really seem to want to ignore is the many other factors that play into long term group/project success. merit alone? hardly ever, if ever.
      - drowsspa 3y ago
        What? Non-meritorious communities are known to last literal millennia.
    - WalterBright 3y ago
      Caltech's undergraduate community was, at least in the years I attended.
  - PKop 3y ago
    Just because someone doesn't deserve something based on merit, doesn't mean they won't be resentful and vindictive if they don't get it. You could even say the concept of merit and the reality of differentiation of competence and ability itself leads to drama and conflict.
- dmix 3y ago
  The funny thing is the typical response to basic drama is aggressive moderation/oversight, which often generates as much or more drama than before. Online communities have a natural tendency to turn inward and become disconnected from the original purpose of the community. A good measure is how much meta/political stuff comes up in every thread.
  - tanepiper 3y ago
    To misquote John Cleese - "This is exactly how Nazi Germany started"
- notmypenguin 3y ago
  Drama is actually the name of a town in Greece
waboremo 3y ago
Not sure there's a real connection between the languages at least when it comes to "drama". Especially considering JavaScript is the most used language, or at least in the top 5 at this rate due to how low the entry barrier is for serious use. So purely from numbers, there's bound to be a bunch with a background in JavaScript, as with any other new language. You could have also said the same thing about Python for the same reasons. IMO the root actually comes from the very heavy social signals that were utilized by the Rust team early on (you can read a lot about them through the core team's reddit posts atp, especially under threads about the code of conduct). This effectively became a beacon for many people to gravitate towards. So when you see these sort of very dramatic disagreements that's laughable to anyone outside of that bubble, it's because that's the type of people Rust was (unintentionally or intentionally) beaconing.
- rgbgraph 3y ago
  Wow, no kidding: https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/vxgzrl/changes_in_the_core_team/ https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/vxgzrl/changes_in_the... Mod response: > For all those wondering about removed comments, there was some trolling going on which was summarily removed by the mods. > Please avoid any trolling and/or drama seeking comments and remember our subreddit rules. "Trolling" on display in the archives of that thread: https://www.reveddit.com/v/rust/comments/vxgzrl/changes_in_the_core_team/ https://www.reveddit.com/v/rust/comments/vxgzrl/changes_in_t... And then there's Graydon's reply to the "we will exclude you," in the code of conduct, and the subsequent drama: https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/6ewjt5/question_about_rusts_odd_code_of_conduct/didrult/ https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/6ewjt5/question_about... Frankly, even though no one has asked for my opinion, the amount of effort people put into the code of conduct (and the discussion around it) is ridiculous; utterly ridiculous. In a time long ago, before everyone was incapable of compromising and cooperating with one another, we had two rules in an informal code of conduct for interacting with one another: 1. Be cool 2. Don't be an asshole And then we all went back to trying to achieving the task at hand.
  - CRConrad 3y ago
    From this “Graydon's reply” you linked: > Some people, naturally, feel that the norms spelled out in the rust CoC makes them feel excluded. To which all I can say is, yes, it's true: the rust CoC focuses on behaviour, not people, but if there's a person who cannot give up those behaviours, then implicitly it excludes such a person. If someone just can't get their work done effectively or can't enjoy themselves without stalking or harassing someone, or cracking a sexist or racist joke, or getting into a flame war, or insulting their colleagues, I suggest they go enjoy the numerous other totally viable language communities. Hm... So, if someone just can't get their work done effectively or can't enjoy themselves without going behind the backs of the whole ostensibly “Leadership” group, what then? Has that person been ostracized yet? Have they even been named?!? (I sure ain't seen no sign of it.) If not, why not? There seems to be a hyuuuge amount of effort being expended to spare that person's feelings... Which seems a) misdirected AF, and b) all too typical of these “governance by namby-pambyism” CoC committee organisations that everything on the Internet appears to have turned into in the last half-decade or so.
draw_down 3y ago
[dead]

by twic 3y ago

Also, lots of people high up in Rust have a background in JavaScript, where drama is common, which I believe has helped normalise it as a mode of social interaction.

scns 3y ago

Drama is common in human Comunnities.

erikerikson 3y ago
Your Bayes is showing.
bcrosby95 3y ago
In high school.
127 3y ago
Only in ones that are not based on merit and long term relationships.
- lazyasciiart 3y ago
  Can you give an example of one that is?
- spaetzleesser 3y ago
  Are there any communities that are really based on merit?
  - spangry 3y ago
    Pretty much every human community has to be to some extent, with the exception of communities that face no external competition. Non-meritorious communities subject to competition quickly disappear.
    - toofy 3y ago
      “…to some extent…” is, i think, the most important piece of your reply. sure, merit plays some kind of role, but so do many other things. what so many comments in this discussion (and every other discussion surrounding this issue over and over and over again ad nauseum) really seem to want to ignore is the many other factors that play into long term group/project success. merit alone? hardly ever, if ever.
    - drowsspa 3y ago
      What? Non-meritorious communities are known to last literal millennia.
  - WalterBright 3y ago
    Caltech's undergraduate community was, at least in the years I attended.
- PKop 3y ago
  Just because someone doesn't deserve something based on merit, doesn't mean they won't be resentful and vindictive if they don't get it. You could even say the concept of merit and the reality of differentiation of competence and ability itself leads to drama and conflict.
dmix 3y ago
The funny thing is the typical response to basic drama is aggressive moderation/oversight, which often generates as much or more drama than before. Online communities have a natural tendency to turn inward and become disconnected from the original purpose of the community. A good measure is how much meta/political stuff comes up in every thread.
- tanepiper 3y ago
  To misquote John Cleese - "This is exactly how Nazi Germany started"
notmypenguin 3y ago
Drama is actually the name of a town in Greece

waboremo 3y ago

Not sure there's a real connection between the languages at least when it comes to "drama". Especially considering JavaScript is the most used language, or at least in the top 5 at this rate due to how low the entry barrier is for serious use. So purely from numbers, there's bound to be a bunch with a background in JavaScript, as with any other new language. You could have also said the same thing about Python for the same reasons. IMO the root actually comes from the very heavy social signals that were utilized by the Rust team early on (you can read a lot about them through the core team's reddit posts atp, especially under threads about the code of conduct). This effectively became a beacon for many people to gravitate towards. So when you see these sort of very dramatic disagreements that's laughable to anyone outside of that bubble, it's because that's the type of people Rust was (unintentionally or intentionally) beaconing.

rgbgraph 3y ago
Wow, no kidding: https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/vxgzrl/changes_in_the_core_team/ https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/vxgzrl/changes_in_the... Mod response: > For all those wondering about removed comments, there was some trolling going on which was summarily removed by the mods. > Please avoid any trolling and/or drama seeking comments and remember our subreddit rules. "Trolling" on display in the archives of that thread: https://www.reveddit.com/v/rust/comments/vxgzrl/changes_in_the_core_team/ https://www.reveddit.com/v/rust/comments/vxgzrl/changes_in_t... And then there's Graydon's reply to the "we will exclude you," in the code of conduct, and the subsequent drama: https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/6ewjt5/question_about_rusts_odd_code_of_conduct/didrult/ https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/6ewjt5/question_about... Frankly, even though no one has asked for my opinion, the amount of effort people put into the code of conduct (and the discussion around it) is ridiculous; utterly ridiculous. In a time long ago, before everyone was incapable of compromising and cooperating with one another, we had two rules in an informal code of conduct for interacting with one another: 1. Be cool 2. Don't be an asshole And then we all went back to trying to achieving the task at hand.
- CRConrad 3y ago
  From this “Graydon's reply” you linked: > Some people, naturally, feel that the norms spelled out in the rust CoC makes them feel excluded. To which all I can say is, yes, it's true: the rust CoC focuses on behaviour, not people, but if there's a person who cannot give up those behaviours, then implicitly it excludes such a person. If someone just can't get their work done effectively or can't enjoy themselves without stalking or harassing someone, or cracking a sexist or racist joke, or getting into a flame war, or insulting their colleagues, I suggest they go enjoy the numerous other totally viable language communities. Hm... So, if someone just can't get their work done effectively or can't enjoy themselves without going behind the backs of the whole ostensibly “Leadership” group, what then? Has that person been ostracized yet? Have they even been named?!? (I sure ain't seen no sign of it.) If not, why not? There seems to be a hyuuuge amount of effort being expended to spare that person's feelings... Which seems a) misdirected AF, and b) all too typical of these “governance by namby-pambyism” CoC committee organisations that everything on the Internet appears to have turned into in the last half-decade or so.

draw_down 3y ago

[dead]