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I thought "rust culture" came out of this sort of super SJW/woke culture of mozilla? Nothing against that sort of mindset in theory, but it sometimes leads to a
by lyu07282 3y ago
I thought "rust culture" came out of this sort of super SJW/woke culture of mozilla? Nothing against that sort of mindset in theory, but it sometimes leads to a certain irrational hypersensitive intolerant mob behavior and authoritarian/anti democratic tendencies.
There was also the recent easily preventable drama [1] around the trademark guidelines some people left rust over. I don't really find any of this drama coming out of this culture very surprising. I write rust every day, I don't have to identify or interact with any sort of community around it, but I care about the future of it. I just hope it's already too big to fail at this point, because there is way more drama coming out of this community in the future, that's for certain.
[1] https://github.com/blyxyas/no-rust-policy-change https://github.com/blyxyas/no-rust-policy-change
- gavaw 3y ago[flagged]
- jackmott42 3y ago[flagged]
- jasonwatkinspdx 3y ago[flagged]
- MrBuddyCasino 3y ago[flagged]
- kelipso 3y agoAll this is painfully predictable if you remotely pay attention to their initial public facing culture, statements, etc lol.
- twic 3y agoAlso, lots of people high up in Rust have a background in JavaScript, where drama is common, which I believe has helped normalise it as a mode of social interaction.
- scns 3y agoDrama is common in human Comunnities.
- erikerikson 3y agoYour Bayes is showing.
- bcrosby95 3y agoIn high school.
- 127 3y agoOnly in ones that are not based on merit and long term relationships.
- lazyasciiart 3y agoCan you give an example of one that is?
- spaetzleesser 3y agoAre there any communities that are really based on merit?
- spangry 3y agoPretty much every human community has to be to some extent, with the exception of communities that face no external competition. Non-meritorious communities subject to competition quickly disappear.
- 3y ago
- scns 3y agoReminds me of The Tyranny of Structurelessness [0], even though there is a structure. My bet would be, no matter how smart you are, your ape genes have more to say than your brain. The rider (mind) and the elephant (emotions + brain stem) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tyranny_of_Structurelessness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tyranny_of_Structurelessne...
- jlpom 3y agoI don’t get the relation between structure and emotions.
- levihaku 3y ago[flagged]
- ethbr0 3y ago110%. Any organization that lacks transparency in decision-making and accountability (that is, attribution of decisions to specific people) devolves into a shadow-hierarchy. Which is even worse than an explicit hierarchy, because it provides more gray area for people with power to do things anonymously.
- snek_case 3y ago[flagged]
- vore 3y agoWow, just think of how “woke” Ada must be!
- johnisgood 3y agoYeah... its community is entirely different from that of Rust. :P
- infamouscow 3y agoI think it parallels the Christian Crusades where crusaders believed they had a moral duty to reclaim the holy land and convert people to Christianity, causing enormous damage in the process. Similarly, the Rust™ ecosystem largely believes they have a moral imperative to replace all software for the cause of memory safety. Much like priests hidden away in their sacristies, the Rust™ community meets my criticisms with the silence of a prayerful vigil, retreating to the cowardly sanctuary of downvotes instead of engaging in the enlightening pursuit of reasoned dialogue. [1][2][3][4] 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35060939 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35060939 2: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34925457 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34925457 3: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31779218 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31779218 4: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31097928 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31097928
- Y_Y 3y agoAs much as I found this funny and insightful, I think that you misrepresent the crusades (and perhaps, by extension, Rust). In my partially-informed opinion, conversion wasn't a major goal, even though people in conquered lands were given the option to convert and integrate. It was more important to claim "holy" land for Christians and make a show of owning and controlling the significant territory. Whether or not Rustaceans want to banish C people to the desert to write printer drivers or to commit apostasy and assimilate I am not qualified to say.
- fatneckbeard 3y agoYeah I worry about this. There was no "C leadership", it was simple enough that dozens of people created their own compilers within a few years of C existing. this was back before the internet. they had companies sprouting up like Borland just making C compilers for personal home computers. C just ... spread. All these kids learning Arduino in school, they are learning C. There basically is no other usable compiler than the official rust compiler. So it has this 'leadership' thing that ... C never really needed
- xyzzyz 3y agoRust is winning market from C and C++ precisely because of strong technical leadership and direction. It couldn’t have made much progress by taking similar hands off approach as C, because C is already more than good enough C.
- deterministic 3y agoNope. Most languages have strong leadership and zero chance of taking anything from C/C++. And it will takes a very long time for Rust to get even 5% of the C/C++ market. There are more than 6 million C++ programmers out there. And new C++ projects are started every day.
- pphysch 3y ago> Rust is winning market from C and C++ precisely because of strong technical leadership and direction. Hmm, not sure about that one. Rust has an enormous hype component to it, more than any other language I'm aware of. It may have strong technical leadership, but saying it's gaining market share "precisely" because of it is precisely misleading.
- patrick451 3y agoThe hype around Julia definitely gives Rust a run for it's money.
- pphysch 3y ago
- ra1231963 3y ago> Nothing against that sort of mindset in theory, but it sometimes leads to a certain irrational hypersensitive intolerant mob behavior and authoritarian/anti democratic tendencies. Really? Nothing against a thing that leads to hypersensitive intolerant mob behavior and authoritarian/anti democratic tendencies!?
- Taywee 3y agoThey said "in theory", which is a contrast to "in practice".
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- jbaber 3y agoYes. Nothing against it in theory, but it leads to stuff they don't like. Did you read the whole comment?
- ra1231963 3y agoI did. I don’t get why they wouldn’t be against the theory of something so obviously flawed that leads to exactly what they are describing. It’s like saying you have nothing against eugenics in theory, but the leap to how that can go wrong in practice is painfully obvious. Or “I have nothing against giving everyone a million dollars in theory”. Obviously that is a dumb idea, so why even say you have nothing against it “in theory”.
- WalterBright 3y agoMarxism works great, in theory.
- lyu07282 3y agowell its a difficult terminology to use because the right/conservative people are of course also against sjw/woke ideology. The distinction is that I'm criticizing very specific tendencies of some people whom could be best described as woke, not the underlying ideology. Such as when they weaponize privilege, language, race or sexuality in order to achieve some secondary unrelated or overarching goal. It's "the ends justify all means" mentality, if by democratic process you won't achieve consensus that agrees with your personal particular set of beliefs, then the rejection, destruction and undermining of collective decision making processes is justified. Which ignores the original reasons for why democratic structures exist in the first place (such as term limits and adversarial structures vs. corruption and abuse of power). This is essentially my criticism of some woke people. It is very difficult to use the terminology even though it is the most accurate, because conservatives are the most loud adversaries of it, but they are just hateful racists, bigots, ableists, sexists, transphobes, homophobes, islamophobes, xenophobes, etc. Which of course invalidates everything they ever say.
- nullc 3y ago> I just hope it's already too big to fail at this point, Too big to fail can easily also mean too big to fix. Failure is often not the worst outcome -- at least failure creates space for a fixed alternative to arise in the space left open.
- KerrAvon 3y ago“SJW/woke” as an epithet is a right wing trope. Can we not do this please?
- gameman144 3y agoIt's also a relatively apt description of a small subset of left-wing groups. My assumption is that the parent comment is explicitly referring to this small subset. Similarly "white supremacist" is often used as an insult on the inverse side, even for groups that don't believe in or desire white dominance. If someone actually does believe in those things, though, it's still a totally fine term to describe them.
- RobotToaster 3y agoNot really, you see the same term used in left wing circles to refer to liberals/synthetic left types.
- frankster 3y agoA decade ago - until the term was appropriated by the reactionary right as an insult!
- calibas 3y ago> I thought "rust culture" came out of this sort of super SJW/woke culture of mozilla? Nothing against that sort of mindset in theory, but it sometimes leads to a certain irrational hypersensitive intolerant mob behavior and authoritarian/anti democratic tendencies. I'm not sure what SJW or "woke" means in this context. They cancelled a black man because they felt "discomfort" over him being the keynote speaker.
- DiggyJohnson 3y agoBut the fact that he was black is a non-factor here, and shouldn't even be mentioned.
- Y_Y 3y agoTFA seems to think it was important. The Rust conference needs to have a black friend to prove it isn't racist.
- calibas 3y agoWhy? Am I to believe the Rust leadership is so enlightened they're incapable of racial discrimination? There's a reason people don't want to talk about racism, and it's not because it doesn't exist anymore...
- busterarm 3y agoI mean...it's not like Rust leadership didn't have a prominent member who loudly advocated ideas like "kill all men", right?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- Larrikin 3y ago[flagged]
- n8henrie 3y agoIs there a similarly succinct but inoffensive word or phrase you would recommend instead?
- Larrikin 3y agoThe term at this point is so twisted that your question is like asking if there a similarly succinct word one can use for the N word. Looking for an alternative that means the same thing is incompatible with it being inoffensive
- n8henrie 3y agoIt looks like your comment may have been removed(?), but I thought its last sentence or two was recommending that the parent poster search their vocabulary for something less laden with negative connotation. Based on this, I was hoping you'd have a suggestion. I think your analogy to the "N word" makes it difficult to assume good faith, but if it were possible to do so regarding "woke," is there a way to refer to that idea without being offensive? Perhaps just "progressive" or "left-leaning" would suffice, but my impression is that "woke" usually refers to a more extreme form that is focused on social issues. "SJW" also seems to have a negative connotation.
- account42 3y ago> It looks like your comment may have been removed(?) You can enable showdead in your profile settings (click on your username) to view [dead] comments. With enough karma you can also vouch for them which might result in the comment being revived.
- dragonwriter 3y agoWhile terse, “woke” is not succinct, in its current negative external use, because it doesn’t clearly communicate anything about what it describes other than that it is disliked by the speaker. It communicates more about the speaker and the identity group they affiliate with than its notional referent; its a kind of right wing virtue signalling. (The older positive use at least had something like a coherent meaning, so arguably was succinct as well as terse.)
- User23 3y agoOnce you understand that "woke" is basically a kind of white internecine competition then it stops being surprising that the "woke" movement doesn't really care about non-white persons except as pieces in that game. These events are of course entirely consistent with that interpretation, and so far I've never seen it falsified.
- More-nitors 3y agothis whole "woke" mentality is going out of hand too fast... I mean, someone bullying some veterans/old men because they're "woke and feminist" isn't going to earn any sympathy from me. nowadays... "woke" just means "I'm better than you (so I can/will do things that are otherwise unacceptable to you)" ...I think we chose the wrong word. Rather than "woke", it should have been "NO BULLYING" -- which includes all things the real "woke" people tried to do, and forbids all things the wrong "woke" people are trying to do
- TRiG_Ireland 3y agoGenerally, these days "woke" is a word that regressive bullying assholes use to insult people.
- yodelshady 3y agoIt definitely strikes me as thought-terminating cliche. If people were calling themselves woke maybe, but I've only seen it as pejorative for several years. I don't think it's fair to entirely dismiss either, there really is a lot of incredibly toxic behaviour in communities labelled "woke" (and agreeing with further up the chain, I can't help but feel being a bit less "inclusive" and demanding some commitment to the product might help, gatekeeping be damned). But we should strive to accurately describe what those behaviours are.
- account42 3y agoExcept if you actually look as things it's usually the "woke" elements that best fit the definition of bullying.