5 ms·

A relay that changed the power industry

145 points by sohkamyung 3y ago

everybodyknows 3y ago
Hardware-link level infosec: > SEL OT SDN technology solves some significant cybersecurity problems,” he says, “and frankly, it makes me feel comfortable for the first time with using Ethernet in a substation. https://selinc.com/solutions/ot-sdn/ https://selinc.com/solutions/ot-sdn/
emmelaich 3y ago
Sounds like an all-round awesome guy as well, significant philanthropist. and this... party on dude! > “I bought [ Protective Relays: Their Theory and Practice.] on the Thursday before classes began and read it over the weekend,” he says. “I couldn’t put it down. I was hooked.
- 8bitsrule 3y ago
  From the company's history page: "2009 SEL becomes 100 percent employee-owned."
stn8188 3y ago
Also interesting is that SEL is in the process of opening the first new PCB fabrication shop in the US in what I think is quite a long time. Since the last few decades have seen so much off-shoring of PCB manufacturing, it's nice to see someone bringing new facilities here (to small Moscow, ID, right across the border from Pullman). Unfortunately, the shop is going to be used only to build SEL boards according to the answer I got when I asked about general availability, but perhaps in the future they'll allow orders from other companies. Even so, it's nice to see a return to some of the vertical integration we saw decades ago with HP and others.
cperciva 3y ago
Energy packets precisely measure energy transfer, independent of frequency or phase angle, and update at a fixed rate with a common time reference such as every millisecond There's a call for you on line 1, someone calling himself Albert A. Stone wants to talk to you about this idea of a common time reference...
- femto 3y ago
  Packetisation of energy is an idea that's been bubbling away in my mind for a number of years, and I'm convinced that is the way of the future. It revolutionised data and in my opinion will (eventually) revolutionise energy, heralding a global "Internet for energy". Imagine if sources could verify the link before sending each energy packet: no more electrocutions, electrical fires or damaged equipment. Imagine if in a domestic situation each energy packet was below the threshold that could damage a person? Electrical installations could become inherently safe, also meaning no need for specialist installers. I get your point about universal time, EM waves and relativity. It doesn't stop data networks though, as packets include synchronisation, effectively establishing a local time for each link. It's fascinating thinking about the analogies between data networks and power networks. What would synchronisation look like for an energy packet? What would a buffer look like, in case packets have to be multiplexed? What are the implications of being unable to copy energy packets? What is an energy packet? So many interesting questions.
  - flangola7 3y ago
    Isn't that just IoT with more steps?
    - actionfromafar 3y ago
      Yeah, like Dropbox is ftp with extra steps.
  - ur-whale 3y ago
    > I'm convinced that is the way of the future. What effect would "turning the hose on an d off" have on efficiency?
    - devb 3y ago
      Did you just invent alternating current?
    - femto 3y ago
askvictor 3y ago
Is this a control system for an electro-mechanical relay, or is the relay itself part of the innovation? I couldn't find info about that in the article.
- philwelch 3y ago
  The relay itself is digital rather than electro-mechanical. (I went to WSU and, like many Cougs, interned at SEL.)
  - RobotToaster 3y ago
    Is there anything special about it? Or is the actual switching just done by a beefy IGBT?
    - p_l 3y ago
      Much faster detection of fault, including ability to detect and point to a fault happening at a distance from the relay.
      - philwelch 3y ago
        Yeah, the story I remember being told is that power companies originally didn’t want to replace their electromechanical relays so they installed the SEL boxes alongside them and used them as fault locators. Over time SEL ended up taking over the market though.
        31carmichael 3y ago
        They haven't completely taken over the market. The likes of Siemens, ABB, GE, etc. manufacture similar products. SEL is considered the best by many utility engineers.
        philwelch 3y ago
        From what I recall, SEL’s market share was high enough in the US that almost all of our growth was international.
dools 3y ago
I’ve been listening to the Catalyst podcast with Shayle Kann recently and it’s given me an appreciation of the importance of this type of work for the future of our planet. As we electrify everything the amount of work we need to do on the grid is astonishing and things like protecting equipment and identifying fault locations effectively can mean the difference between success and total collapse.
- mistrial9 3y ago
  maybe? centralized sources are good for profit margins, but distributed and efficient systems are more how Nature works. We got here with a mix of both, keep mixing...
shahidkarimi 3y ago
[dead]
borissk 3y ago
Wonder how these switches will be able to deal with a Carrington Event.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
throw0101b 3y ago
Meta: I think most of us on HN think of Ethernet/Wifi/networking when we think of "IEEE", but there are whole other aspects/fields of EE that generally don't enter our consciousness regularly: the power systems work of this article is just one of them.
photochemsyn 3y ago
This recent paper from SEL engineers is interesting, it discusses potential issues with a rapid increase in high-current EV charging on existing power grids: https://selinc.com/api/download/138271/ https://selinc.com/api/download/138271/ It also clarifies what is meant by an 'energy packet': > "Simply stated: “Energy packets are precise measurements of energy exchanges, independent of system frequency and phase angles, and are computed and communicated at a fixed rate, with a common time reference” [5]. > "Power analysis software integrates 1,000 samples of 1 μs data into a 1 ms energy packet [5] [6]. The analysis calculates joules (watt seconds) of energy packets exchanged every 1 ms. For example, a 1-watt load consumes 1 millijoule of energy within a 1 ms period. Energy packets are calculated in the SI unit joules (J). Joules are converted into watthours (Wh) by a time-scaled 3,600 seconds per hour where 1 Wh equals 3,600 J."
buggy6257 3y ago
Wow this is a crazy coincidence. I was a brand new software engineer that actually worked on the original implementation of SEL’s SDN software. Was my first real job out of college! My name might actually be on a patent somewhere even though I was just a code monkey at the time… I wonder how much it has changed since then. My former boss is still working on that project AFAIK, I should reach out to him…
- amelius 3y ago
  Could you outline what the device actually does? The article is not very rich on the details.
  - buggy6257 3y ago
    I didn't actually work on the device itself; that was after my time. By the time I left, they basically just had the MVP of the SDN software itself done -- there wasn't even a device it was scheduled to be on. Sorry :/

145 points by sohkamyung 3y ago

Hardware-link level infosec: > SEL OT SDN technology solves some significant cybersecurity problems,” he says, “and frankly, it makes me feel comfortable for the first time with using Ethernet in a substation. https://selinc.com/solutions/ot-sdn/ https://selinc.com/solutions/ot-sdn/

emmelaich 3y ago

Sounds like an all-round awesome guy as well, significant philanthropist. and this... party on dude! > “I bought [ Protective Relays: Their Theory and Practice.] on the Thursday before classes began and read it over the weekend,” he says. “I couldn’t put it down. I was hooked.

8bitsrule 3y ago
From the company's history page: "2009 SEL becomes 100 percent employee-owned."

stn8188 3y ago

Also interesting is that SEL is in the process of opening the first new PCB fabrication shop in the US in what I think is quite a long time. Since the last few decades have seen so much off-shoring of PCB manufacturing, it's nice to see someone bringing new facilities here (to small Moscow, ID, right across the border from Pullman). Unfortunately, the shop is going to be used only to build SEL boards according to the answer I got when I asked about general availability, but perhaps in the future they'll allow orders from other companies. Even so, it's nice to see a return to some of the vertical integration we saw decades ago with HP and others.

cperciva 3y ago

Energy packets precisely measure energy transfer, independent of frequency or phase angle, and update at a fixed rate with a common time reference such as every millisecond There's a call for you on line 1, someone calling himself Albert A. Stone wants to talk to you about this idea of a common time reference...

femto 3y ago
Packetisation of energy is an idea that's been bubbling away in my mind for a number of years, and I'm convinced that is the way of the future. It revolutionised data and in my opinion will (eventually) revolutionise energy, heralding a global "Internet for energy". Imagine if sources could verify the link before sending each energy packet: no more electrocutions, electrical fires or damaged equipment. Imagine if in a domestic situation each energy packet was below the threshold that could damage a person? Electrical installations could become inherently safe, also meaning no need for specialist installers. I get your point about universal time, EM waves and relativity. It doesn't stop data networks though, as packets include synchronisation, effectively establishing a local time for each link. It's fascinating thinking about the analogies between data networks and power networks. What would synchronisation look like for an energy packet? What would a buffer look like, in case packets have to be multiplexed? What are the implications of being unable to copy energy packets? What is an energy packet? So many interesting questions.
- flangola7 3y ago
  Isn't that just IoT with more steps?
  - actionfromafar 3y ago
    Yeah, like Dropbox is ftp with extra steps.
- ur-whale 3y ago
  > I'm convinced that is the way of the future. What effect would "turning the hose on an d off" have on efficiency?
  - devb 3y ago
    Did you just invent alternating current?
  - femto 3y ago

askvictor 3y ago

Is this a control system for an electro-mechanical relay, or is the relay itself part of the innovation? I couldn't find info about that in the article.

philwelch 3y ago
The relay itself is digital rather than electro-mechanical. (I went to WSU and, like many Cougs, interned at SEL.)
- RobotToaster 3y ago
  Is there anything special about it? Or is the actual switching just done by a beefy IGBT?
  - p_l 3y ago
    Much faster detection of fault, including ability to detect and point to a fault happening at a distance from the relay.
    - philwelch 3y ago
      Yeah, the story I remember being told is that power companies originally didn’t want to replace their electromechanical relays so they installed the SEL boxes alongside them and used them as fault locators. Over time SEL ended up taking over the market though.
      - 31carmichael 3y ago
        They haven't completely taken over the market. The likes of Siemens, ABB, GE, etc. manufacture similar products. SEL is considered the best by many utility engineers.
        philwelch 3y ago
        From what I recall, SEL’s market share was high enough in the US that almost all of our growth was international.

dools 3y ago

I’ve been listening to the Catalyst podcast with Shayle Kann recently and it’s given me an appreciation of the importance of this type of work for the future of our planet. As we electrify everything the amount of work we need to do on the grid is astonishing and things like protecting equipment and identifying fault locations effectively can mean the difference between success and total collapse.

mistrial9 3y ago
maybe? centralized sources are good for profit margins, but distributed and efficient systems are more how Nature works. We got here with a mix of both, keep mixing...

shahidkarimi 3y ago

[dead]

borissk 3y ago

Wonder how these switches will be able to deal with a Carrington Event.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

throw0101b 3y ago

Meta: I think most of us on HN think of Ethernet/Wifi/networking when we think of "IEEE", but there are whole other aspects/fields of EE that generally don't enter our consciousness regularly: the power systems work of this article is just one of them.

photochemsyn 3y ago

This recent paper from SEL engineers is interesting, it discusses potential issues with a rapid increase in high-current EV charging on existing power grids: https://selinc.com/api/download/138271/ https://selinc.com/api/download/138271/ It also clarifies what is meant by an 'energy packet': > "Simply stated: “Energy packets are precise measurements of energy exchanges, independent of system frequency and phase angles, and are computed and communicated at a fixed rate, with a common time reference” [5]. > "Power analysis software integrates 1,000 samples of 1 μs data into a 1 ms energy packet [5] [6]. The analysis calculates joules (watt seconds) of energy packets exchanged every 1 ms. For example, a 1-watt load consumes 1 millijoule of energy within a 1 ms period. Energy packets are calculated in the SI unit joules (J). Joules are converted into watthours (Wh) by a time-scaled 3,600 seconds per hour where 1 Wh equals 3,600 J."

buggy6257 3y ago

Wow this is a crazy coincidence. I was a brand new software engineer that actually worked on the original implementation of SEL’s SDN software. Was my first real job out of college! My name might actually be on a patent somewhere even though I was just a code monkey at the time… I wonder how much it has changed since then. My former boss is still working on that project AFAIK, I should reach out to him…

amelius 3y ago
Could you outline what the device actually does? The article is not very rich on the details.
- buggy6257 3y ago
  I didn't actually work on the device itself; that was after my time. By the time I left, they basically just had the MVP of the SDN software itself done -- there wasn't even a device it was scheduled to be on. Sorry :/