4 ms·

Is there an actual argument there? What are they supposed to do or eat? Orcas, other than humans, are the most widespread animal. They're in practically every

by bmitc 3y ago

Is there an actual argument there? What are they supposed to do or eat? Orcas, other than humans, are the most widespread animal. They're in practically every ocean and continental coast and eat a variety of food. Orcas who concentrate on a single or a few species, like salmon, tuna, or rays, do so as a strategy. They are huge animals with huge caloric needs, so it makes sense to diversify so as to not over compete, and thus this makes it possible for different pods to live in the same areas. Humans the world over are starving and yet there is an over abundance of food. The U.S. alone wastes 120 billion pounds of food every year. Humans have to monitor how much fish we eat because we have filled fish with toxins like mercury and microplastics. So orcas are the "dumb" ones because some eat fish?

nradov 3y ago
No one is claiming that orcas are dumb or that they shouldn't eat fish. But throughout nature when two species compete for the same resource there will inevitably be conflict. Europeans have been generally overfishing for centuries and will need to cut back catch quotas to a sustainable level. The Mediterranean once teemed with life, now it's rare to see any large fish. Famines are generally caused by bad governance, not by lack of food. We should reduce food waste where practical but that won't really help to feed the starving. For example, the 1980's Ethiopian famine which triggered major international relief efforts was primarily caused by a civil war. The opposing sides used hunger as a weapon and stole food from civilians. I can eat less tuna but that won't solve such problems.
- bmitc 3y ago
  > Famines are generally caused by bad governance, not by lack of food. That was primarily my point of calling that out, as it points to the lower emotional intelligence of humans.
- myshpa 3y ago
  You definitely should join those who eat less tuna ... lower demand, more pressure on politicians to actually do something. https://www.seaspiracy.org/facts https://www.seaspiracy.org/facts "HIGHEST VALUE OF BLUEFIN TUNA: $3,100,000, CONSERVATION STATUS: ENDANGERED" "TODAY ONLY 3% OF PACIFIC BLUEFIN TUNA REMAIN" "OVERFISHING PUTS $42 BILLION TUNA INDUSTRY AT RISK OF COLLAPSE" "A MITSUBISHI SUBSIDIARY CONTROLS 40% OF THE WORLDS BLUE FIN TUNA" https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/revealed-the-bid-to-corner-world-s-bluefin-tuna-market-1695479.html https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/revealed-t... "A corporation within the £170bn Mitsubishi empire is importing thousands of tonnes of the fish from Europe into Tokyo's premium fish markets, despite stocks plummeting towards extinction in the Mediterranean. Bluefin tuna frozen at -60C now could be sold in several years' time for astronomical sums if Atlantic bluefin becomes commercially extinct as forecast, a result of the near free-for-all enjoyed by the tuna fleet."
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twelve40 3y ago
> So orcas are the "dumb" ones because some eat fish? that's a pretty twisted and incorrect reading of what i said, they don't have human level of intelligence because they all don't do anything else singificant their whole entire lives but hunt fish, not because they eat fish.
- bmitc 3y ago
  You didn't respond to my other questions. What are they supposed to do and eat, then? What about what you said makes them unintelligent? Edit: Replying to the reply I received here in an edit, since the comment is now dead. I apologize for being confused, because I indeed was. I wasn't trying to do anything other than understand you're admittedly confusing argument, which is why I asked for an elaboration. > Can you please point me to cultural, scientific, technological, architectural, philosophical achievements of orcas that are typically associated with human-level intellect? Now we're getting somewhere interesting. :) None of those things, aside from maybe culture have anything to do with intelligence. Orcas certainly do have culture and do more than just eat. They stay with their families their entire lives, intelligently breading with other pods (i.e., not their relatives), have play, vocalization and by all appearances language, and even recreation, such as vising massaging pebbles or visiting their favorite areas. The have culture, such as play activities and hunting techniques, that are passed done from generation to generation and are activity taught to fellow pod members. There is even a famous example of orcas teaching and training humans to hunt whales in a mutually beneficial way that allowed the orcas to eat their favorite parts: the tongue. An orca's brain is fascinating. It is much larger than a humans. Of course, their bodies are much larger and thus need more processing power to handle the larger system, but the brain size is certainly a component to their intelligence. What's more interesting is that their brain exhibits much higher density and complex folding than our brain does. Folds in brains increase surface area and are thought to correlate strongly with more processing power and higher intelligence. We are smoothed brain compared to them. Another fascinating thing about their brain is that the part of the brain associated with emotional intelligence in much larger than humans and other primates relative to the rest of the brain. So it stands to reason by both brain structure and their behavior that orcas are much more emotionally intelligent than humans. As a separate fact, orcas are one of only three mammals, the other being pilot whales and humans, that undergo menopause, an evolutionary adaptation that helps allow their matriarchical society to maintain its social structure and health. Science is absolutely clear on this fact: orca brains have every indication of processing power that competes very seriously with human brains and in some ways out competes it. And with every bit of new research that comes out, we find out more that points in the positive direction of them being even more intelligent than we thought. Compared to ancient humans prior to agriculture and technology, their hunting techniques absolutely equal human techniques. It's possible that they are even more coordinated than humans. Regarding the rest of the stuff you mentioned such as scientific, technological, architectural, philosophical achievements, none of these things matter for or hardly even relate to intelligence. For one, we have no understanding nor comprehension of their internal mental models and thus cannot comment on their philosophy. For the rest, I would ask you to consider their environment. They live in the ocean and are forced to live near the surface due to being air-breathing mammals. Not even considering the fact that they lack hands and opposable thumbs, their environment makes technological progress impossible. There is no way to develop writing or printing technology, agriculture, architecture, or anything else due to their aquatic environment. As a thought experiment, take humans and give them the magically ability to live in the ocean permanently with the typical human dexterity, hands, and opposable thumbs. Writing, printing, recording of any kind would be impossible for ancient humans to obtain, thus preventing all technological development. Lastly, one should consider what intelligence actually is. Orcas live their lives by eating responsibly and healthily, stay with their families, play, communicate, and live all without waging war. We humans live our lives slaved to our technology and socioeconomic systems with vast amounts of self-induced mental and physical health problems while trying to obtain some misplaced notion of permanence in this universe through AI or space travel, all while completely destroying the environment for ourselves and every other species. Humans are also some of the most if not the most violent species to ever exist. Which is more intelligent?
11235813213455 3y ago
and pets eat 1/5th of world meat & fish production, just leaving this here
- bena 3y ago
  Look, if Toonces drove a boat instead of a car, I'm sure Free Willy would be fucking his shit up, but as it stands, orcas don't know where any of what is caught is going. They just know that the boats are stealing their food.
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nonethewiser 3y ago
> Is there an actual argument there? That balancing tuna on your nose doesn’t display human like intelligence.
- DigiDigiorno 3y ago
  Perhaps he's playing 5d chess. bmitc's inability to understand the argument in a meaningful way is itself evidence that human intelligence is closer to the orcas
- tanseydavid 3y ago
  But organizing in a group to destroy an enemy who has superior technology (a boat with a motor for example) does display human-like intelligence.
- bmitc 3y ago
  No one said it did.

by bmitc 3y ago

nradov 3y ago

No one is claiming that orcas are dumb or that they shouldn't eat fish. But throughout nature when two species compete for the same resource there will inevitably be conflict. Europeans have been generally overfishing for centuries and will need to cut back catch quotas to a sustainable level. The Mediterranean once teemed with life, now it's rare to see any large fish. Famines are generally caused by bad governance, not by lack of food. We should reduce food waste where practical but that won't really help to feed the starving. For example, the 1980's Ethiopian famine which triggered major international relief efforts was primarily caused by a civil war. The opposing sides used hunger as a weapon and stole food from civilians. I can eat less tuna but that won't solve such problems.

bmitc 3y ago
> Famines are generally caused by bad governance, not by lack of food. That was primarily my point of calling that out, as it points to the lower emotional intelligence of humans.
myshpa 3y ago
You definitely should join those who eat less tuna ... lower demand, more pressure on politicians to actually do something. https://www.seaspiracy.org/facts https://www.seaspiracy.org/facts "HIGHEST VALUE OF BLUEFIN TUNA: $3,100,000, CONSERVATION STATUS: ENDANGERED" "TODAY ONLY 3% OF PACIFIC BLUEFIN TUNA REMAIN" "OVERFISHING PUTS $42 BILLION TUNA INDUSTRY AT RISK OF COLLAPSE" "A MITSUBISHI SUBSIDIARY CONTROLS 40% OF THE WORLDS BLUE FIN TUNA" https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/revealed-the-bid-to-corner-world-s-bluefin-tuna-market-1695479.html https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/revealed-t... "A corporation within the £170bn Mitsubishi empire is importing thousands of tonnes of the fish from Europe into Tokyo's premium fish markets, despite stocks plummeting towards extinction in the Mediterranean. Bluefin tuna frozen at -60C now could be sold in several years' time for astronomical sums if Atlantic bluefin becomes commercially extinct as forecast, a result of the near free-for-all enjoyed by the tuna fleet."
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

twelve40 3y ago

> So orcas are the "dumb" ones because some eat fish? that's a pretty twisted and incorrect reading of what i said, they don't have human level of intelligence because they all don't do anything else singificant their whole entire lives but hunt fish, not because they eat fish.

bmitc 3y ago
You didn't respond to my other questions. What are they supposed to do and eat, then? What about what you said makes them unintelligent? Edit: Replying to the reply I received here in an edit, since the comment is now dead. I apologize for being confused, because I indeed was. I wasn't trying to do anything other than understand you're admittedly confusing argument, which is why I asked for an elaboration. > Can you please point me to cultural, scientific, technological, architectural, philosophical achievements of orcas that are typically associated with human-level intellect? Now we're getting somewhere interesting. :) None of those things, aside from maybe culture have anything to do with intelligence. Orcas certainly do have culture and do more than just eat. They stay with their families their entire lives, intelligently breading with other pods (i.e., not their relatives), have play, vocalization and by all appearances language, and even recreation, such as vising massaging pebbles or visiting their favorite areas. The have culture, such as play activities and hunting techniques, that are passed done from generation to generation and are activity taught to fellow pod members. There is even a famous example of orcas teaching and training humans to hunt whales in a mutually beneficial way that allowed the orcas to eat their favorite parts: the tongue. An orca's brain is fascinating. It is much larger than a humans. Of course, their bodies are much larger and thus need more processing power to handle the larger system, but the brain size is certainly a component to their intelligence. What's more interesting is that their brain exhibits much higher density and complex folding than our brain does. Folds in brains increase surface area and are thought to correlate strongly with more processing power and higher intelligence. We are smoothed brain compared to them. Another fascinating thing about their brain is that the part of the brain associated with emotional intelligence in much larger than humans and other primates relative to the rest of the brain. So it stands to reason by both brain structure and their behavior that orcas are much more emotionally intelligent than humans. As a separate fact, orcas are one of only three mammals, the other being pilot whales and humans, that undergo menopause, an evolutionary adaptation that helps allow their matriarchical society to maintain its social structure and health. Science is absolutely clear on this fact: orca brains have every indication of processing power that competes very seriously with human brains and in some ways out competes it. And with every bit of new research that comes out, we find out more that points in the positive direction of them being even more intelligent than we thought. Compared to ancient humans prior to agriculture and technology, their hunting techniques absolutely equal human techniques. It's possible that they are even more coordinated than humans. Regarding the rest of the stuff you mentioned such as scientific, technological, architectural, philosophical achievements, none of these things matter for or hardly even relate to intelligence. For one, we have no understanding nor comprehension of their internal mental models and thus cannot comment on their philosophy. For the rest, I would ask you to consider their environment. They live in the ocean and are forced to live near the surface due to being air-breathing mammals. Not even considering the fact that they lack hands and opposable thumbs, their environment makes technological progress impossible. There is no way to develop writing or printing technology, agriculture, architecture, or anything else due to their aquatic environment. As a thought experiment, take humans and give them the magically ability to live in the ocean permanently with the typical human dexterity, hands, and opposable thumbs. Writing, printing, recording of any kind would be impossible for ancient humans to obtain, thus preventing all technological development. Lastly, one should consider what intelligence actually is. Orcas live their lives by eating responsibly and healthily, stay with their families, play, communicate, and live all without waging war. We humans live our lives slaved to our technology and socioeconomic systems with vast amounts of self-induced mental and physical health problems while trying to obtain some misplaced notion of permanence in this universe through AI or space travel, all while completely destroying the environment for ourselves and every other species. Humans are also some of the most if not the most violent species to ever exist. Which is more intelligent?

11235813213455 3y ago

and pets eat 1/5th of world meat & fish production, just leaving this here

bena 3y ago
Look, if Toonces drove a boat instead of a car, I'm sure Free Willy would be fucking his shit up, but as it stands, orcas don't know where any of what is caught is going. They just know that the boats are stealing their food.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

nonethewiser 3y ago

> Is there an actual argument there? That balancing tuna on your nose doesn’t display human like intelligence.

DigiDigiorno 3y ago
Perhaps he's playing 5d chess. bmitc's inability to understand the argument in a meaningful way is itself evidence that human intelligence is closer to the orcas
tanseydavid 3y ago
But organizing in a group to destroy an enemy who has superior technology (a boat with a motor for example) does display human-like intelligence.
bmitc 3y ago
No one said it did.