5 ms·

Puerto Rico: A U.S. Territory in Crisis

83 points by eatonphil 3y ago

eatonphil 3y ago
This was a very interesting article. I did not know about the special statuses of Micronesia with the US. Similarly interesting about Puerto Rico being the largest bankruptcy ever in US history and it being a potential model for NJ and IL (because of their massive pension debt [0]). [0] https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/articles/2022/07/07/states-unfunded-pension-liabilities-persist-as-major-long-term-challenge https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/articles/...
- alephnerd 3y ago
  > special statuses of Micronesia with the US Yep. It's a holdover from WW2 - most of Japan's island territories in the Pacific were handed to the US, UK, France, NZ, and AUS by the UN to be managed and governed. Most of those territories were given independence and sovereignty in the 80s-90s, but because of their tiny size they still remain dependent on those countries, Taiwan (development grants for recognizing Taiwan), and China (development grants for not recognizing Taiwan).
  - eatonphil 3y ago
    Also reminds me about non-self governing territories: https://www.un.org/dppa/decolonization/en/nsgt https://www.un.org/dppa/decolonization/en/nsgt
    - alephnerd 3y ago
      Yep. The Special Committee on Decolonization was started specifically to help with giving soverignity to the various Pacific islands. The US gave soveriginity to most of it's former territories back in the 80s
  - matwood 3y ago
    Which is how/why the next summer olympics in Paris will hold the surfing part of the competition in Teahupo, Tahiti. https://www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/50760437 https://www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/50760437
    - jhbadger 3y ago
      That's a bit different. Tahiti's ties to France go back long before WWII as it was a French "protectorate" (colony) starting in the 1840s, and has been under French rule ever since, although now it (as part of French Polynesia) is an "overseas country" of France meaning it has a large degree of self-rule not unlike Puerto Rico's relationship to the US.
- Auracle 3y ago
  Fun fact - I’m a photographer in rural Minnesota and I photographed 3 different senior girls from Micronesia one winter. Apparently a town about an hour from me has a little community of people from there, which I’d never known before.
  - TMWNN 3y ago
    I bet that there is some sort of food processing facility there. That is why there is a Marshall Islands consulate in Springdale, Arkansas. <https://www.kuaf.com/ozarks-at-large-stories/2017-10-02/new-rmi-consul-general-takes-helm-in-springdale https://www.kuaf.com/ozarks-at-large-stories/2017-10-02/new-...>
- troupo 3y ago
  GCP Gray has a nice quick overview of all territories and their overlapping, conflicting, and controversial statuese: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASSOQDQvVLU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASSOQDQvVLU (just six minutes)
gumby 3y ago
[dead]
- pjc50 3y ago
  Recognising the true state of affairs is very much how the phrase "woke" came to be.
  - gumby 3y ago
    I agree but was trying to forestall any comment chain going down an ideological rathole.
- giraffe_lady 3y ago
  [flagged]
- unix_fan 3y ago
  While this is true, a large part of the problem faced by Puerto Ricans is the local corruption we see in most of the Caribbean. In my country, a lot of people wish we were a part of the US, even as a territory. Mostly, not having as many immigrationrestrictions, when it comes to going to the mainland. A lot of us see Puerto Rico position, as a privilege rather than a bad thing.
  - cumshitpiss 3y ago
    [dead]
  - sidewndr46 3y ago
    What country is that, if you don't mind me asking?
    - alephnerd 3y ago
      Not OP but every couple years Bermuda and Turks and Caicos Islands tries to integrate with Canada.
jmyeet 3y ago
Fun story: a lot of Puerto Rico's problems are linked to a mis-translation of the Constitution from Spanish to English [1]: > The big spending was fueled by a translation error between Spanish and English in the island's 1952 constitution. It enabled Puerto Rico to issue debt to fund many activities, including day-to-day operations. It all comes down to the interpretation of the phrase "recursos totales" -- total revenue or total resources? It was interpreted as resources, which is a broader term allowing the government to fund regular operations (e.g. education, policing, health care, etc.) via bonds. In Spanish "recursos totales" is better translated as "total revenue" not "total resources". [1]: https://money.cnn.com/2016/05/12/investing/puerto-rico-debt-crisis/ https://money.cnn.com/2016/05/12/investing/puerto-rico-debt-...
- pyuser583 3y ago
  This is fascinating!
- sammywater 3y ago
  I've never seen recurso translated as "revenue", I've only see it translated as "resource". The same can be see in this etymology dictionary: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/recurso#Spanish https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/recurso#Spanish No mention of "revenue"-- not even in the latin root.
  - Y_Y 3y ago
    My Spanish isn't native, but my reaction was the same as yours. It may well be an archaic usage though, and etymology won't solve that for you. (All the same wiktionary is a perfectly good general-purpose dictionary).
  - jmyeet 3y ago
    I'm not a Spanish speaker so I'm reliant on these accounts. Here's a more detailed explanation [1]: > The legal framework for a balanced budget dates back to Section 34 of the 1917 Jones-Shafroth Act, which states that “No appropriation shall be made, nor any expenditure authorized by the legislature, whereby the expenditure of the Government of Porto Rico during any fiscal year shall exceed the total revenue then provided for by law and applicable for such appropriation or expenditure, including any available surplus in the treasury, unless the legislature making such appropriation shall provide for levying a sufficient tax to pay such appropriation or expenditure within such fiscal year.” A provision in Puerto Rico’s Constitution, which was approved in 1952, contains similar language in English: The appropriations made for any fiscal year shall not exceed the total revenues, including available surplus, estimated for said fiscal year unless the imposition of taxes sufficient to cover said appropriations is provided by law. P.R. Const., art. VI, §7. The Spanish translation of the Constitution, however, translated revenues as “recursos” which can also be interpreted to mean resources. A 1974 ruling by Puerto Rico’s attorney general clarified the legal meaning of “recursos” to a broader general definition of resources available to the government, including proceeds of bond issuances. P.R. Op. Sec. Just. 1974-15, 19 The way this reads is backwards to what I previously read (and stated) where "revenues" was translated into Spanish later to "recursos" in 1952, which was interpreted to include debt, bypassing the original 1917 act for a balanced budget. [1]: https://www.gao.gov/assets/700/691944.pdf https://www.gao.gov/assets/700/691944.pdf
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Proven 3y ago
[dead]
boredumb 3y ago
Puerto Rico is amazing in a million ways... Butttt, there is a lot of government corruption and misallocation of funds for infrastructure among other things. There is a burgeoning tech scene and a lot of well educated folks here to do the heavy lifting. The taxes on locals are too high and there is a massive hangover from government pensions of yesteryear. The amount of grifting that goes on focusing on PR being a 3rd world hellscape for their own views/clicks/etc is insane.
- debacle 3y ago
  Thank you for this comment! There are parts of Puerto Rico that are "3rd world hellscapes," but they are tiny and not the norm. It is a beautiful island with a ton of natural resources and hardworking people. Where else can you drive 3 hours and go from dense rainforest to absolute desert, spend your morning snorkeling pristine reefs and your evening deep in the mountains, and see a mix of old and new everywhere?
  - irrational 3y ago
    But, do you want to go deep in the mountains? I lived in Morovis for about 4 months. I’ve never seen anywhere more infested with more cockroaches and rats in my life.
    - debacle 3y ago
      Jayuya is one of my favorite places in the world, but you are right the bugs are out of control. Especially at night, two screens on the windows and the buzzing all night.
    - boredumb 3y ago
      You just needed a few cats and some chickens :D I live outside the metro area and there are definitely 4x4 only areas as far as transportation and it becomes quite rural pretty quick in the hills. Not to mention the chupacabra.
  - koprulusector 3y ago
TheAceOfHearts 3y ago
I want to note two salient points which are missing from this writeup: (1) the PROMESA board is unelected (2) the Supreme Court has ruled that the board doesn't have to provide requested documents and transparency. This is the face of colonialism and tyranny.
- koprulusector 3y ago
  Without knowing anything on the topic, what you’ve described definitely sounds like a good way to promote corruption and stall progress.
- Y_Y 3y ago
  Not according to the UN. https://www.un.org/dppa/decolonization/en/nsgt https://www.un.org/dppa/decolonization/en/nsgt They do call the USVIs a colony though, and I do accept that the US has outsize influence in these matters and has gotten off easy in the decolonisation game.
  - red-iron-pine 3y ago
    How many senators does the UN send to DC?
    - dragonwriter 3y ago
      The same number as Puerto Rico. Not sure how that’s relevant, though.
photochemsyn 3y ago
Puerto Rico could be energy-independent if the US government changed the energy policy that it dictates to the colony with no say of the inhabitants. It's optimaly located for a 100% solar-PV system (see South Australia for comparison). As it stands, it has to import a lot of fossil fuel: https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insights/latest-news/oil/041322-feature-faraway-war-slows-puerto-ricos-refined-oil-product-imports-especially-from-russia-baltics https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insight...
- prottog 3y ago
  > It's optimaly located for a 100% solar-PV system (see South Australia for comparison) How does it compare to South Australia? SA reaches from 38-26 degrees of latitude, with empty scorching desert in the north (towards the equator) suitable for mass solar generation. Puerto Rich is just north of 18 degrees of latitude with a predominantly tropical climate, meaning lots of clouds and rain. San Juan, for example, gets just under 3000 hours of sunshine a year, which is similar to places like Memphis or Oklahoma City (vs. Las Vegas, for example, at 3800 hours).
- nocoiner 3y ago
  It also has enormous hydro power potential. The environmental ramifications would probably make this a non-starter though. Renewable energy ought to be a no-brainer for PR, though. I just wish the utility wasn’t stuck in a spot where it has to triage the basic delivery of electricity and a minimally functioning grid, and instead could focus on investing on rebuilding the overall generation and distribution system.
- bigie35 3y ago
  My family is from there (I was born there) and my parents just installed a solar roof and panels, I can't remember the metrics (sorry) but the house was consuming .5 of the energy and exporting over 3 to the grid. My parents have batteries as well for the solar power. Sorry not super helpful...
pphysch 3y ago
I'm just glad there's no foreign power occupying PR with troops and backing separatist groups there. That would be a mess. Glad stuff like that doesn't happen in the 21st century. It is interesting that the proposed act would allow PRcans to vote for independence, but Washington would get to shape the constitution.
nocoiner 3y ago
There’s at least one thing in the article that I’m pretty sure is incorrect - it says $33 billion in debt obligations were cut down through the PROMESA restructuring. I think that vastly understated the magnitude of the debt; I believe it was more on the order of $130 billion. I watched the restructuring pretty closely for a while but eventually lost interest after a series of will they/won’t they court decisions. I hope it delivers a sustainable outcome to the island. It’s a wonderful place and deserves better than what it’s been through in recent years.
bigie35 3y ago
Since my little island is hardly if ever mentioned in these parts I thought i'd throw out a few interesting tidbits. 1. It has three bioluminescent bays : https://www.discoverpuertorico.com/article/guide-to-exploring-puerto-ricos-bioluminescent-bays#:~:text=Puerto%20Rico's%20three%20bioluminescent%20bays,t%20miss%20in%20Puerto%20Rico https://www.discoverpuertorico.com/article/guide-to-explorin.... 2. It has one of the top 10 beaches in the world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamenco_Beach https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamenco_Beach 3. I can't find the stat now, but I think Puerto Rico produces a ton of engineers relative to it's population. Also has pretty good representation at NASA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Puerto_Ricans_in_the_United_States_Space_Program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Puerto_Ricans_in_the_U... DM if you want recco's on the island! I'm from Aguada so can help on the west coast :-)
- miamibre 3y ago
  Also it has the ONLY tropical rainforest in the entire US in el Yunque!
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
dave333 3y ago
Went there in Feb 1998 to take a cruise for the total eclipse and drove up to Arecibo and got a tour of the dish. Beautiful countryside everywhere although we didn't get out of the car much. The salsa(?) music in our hotel bar was amazing - the place was jumping all night.

83 points by eatonphil 3y ago

This was a very interesting article. I did not know about the special statuses of Micronesia with the US. Similarly interesting about Puerto Rico being the largest bankruptcy ever in US history and it being a potential model for NJ and IL (because of their massive pension debt [0]). [0] https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/articles/2022/07/07/states-unfunded-pension-liabilities-persist-as-major-long-term-challenge https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/articles/...

alephnerd 3y ago
> special statuses of Micronesia with the US Yep. It's a holdover from WW2 - most of Japan's island territories in the Pacific were handed to the US, UK, France, NZ, and AUS by the UN to be managed and governed. Most of those territories were given independence and sovereignty in the 80s-90s, but because of their tiny size they still remain dependent on those countries, Taiwan (development grants for recognizing Taiwan), and China (development grants for not recognizing Taiwan).
- eatonphil 3y ago
  Also reminds me about non-self governing territories: https://www.un.org/dppa/decolonization/en/nsgt https://www.un.org/dppa/decolonization/en/nsgt
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    Yep. The Special Committee on Decolonization was started specifically to help with giving soverignity to the various Pacific islands. The US gave soveriginity to most of it's former territories back in the 80s
- matwood 3y ago
  Which is how/why the next summer olympics in Paris will hold the surfing part of the competition in Teahupo, Tahiti. https://www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/50760437 https://www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/50760437
  - jhbadger 3y ago
    That's a bit different. Tahiti's ties to France go back long before WWII as it was a French "protectorate" (colony) starting in the 1840s, and has been under French rule ever since, although now it (as part of French Polynesia) is an "overseas country" of France meaning it has a large degree of self-rule not unlike Puerto Rico's relationship to the US.
Auracle 3y ago
Fun fact - I’m a photographer in rural Minnesota and I photographed 3 different senior girls from Micronesia one winter. Apparently a town about an hour from me has a little community of people from there, which I’d never known before.
- TMWNN 3y ago
  I bet that there is some sort of food processing facility there. That is why there is a Marshall Islands consulate in Springdale, Arkansas. <https://www.kuaf.com/ozarks-at-large-stories/2017-10-02/new-rmi-consul-general-takes-helm-in-springdale https://www.kuaf.com/ozarks-at-large-stories/2017-10-02/new-...>
troupo 3y ago
GCP Gray has a nice quick overview of all territories and their overlapping, conflicting, and controversial statuese: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASSOQDQvVLU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASSOQDQvVLU (just six minutes)

gumby 3y ago

[dead]

pjc50 3y ago
Recognising the true state of affairs is very much how the phrase "woke" came to be.
- gumby 3y ago
  I agree but was trying to forestall any comment chain going down an ideological rathole.
giraffe_lady 3y ago
[flagged]
unix_fan 3y ago
While this is true, a large part of the problem faced by Puerto Ricans is the local corruption we see in most of the Caribbean. In my country, a lot of people wish we were a part of the US, even as a territory. Mostly, not having as many immigrationrestrictions, when it comes to going to the mainland. A lot of us see Puerto Rico position, as a privilege rather than a bad thing.
- cumshitpiss 3y ago
  [dead]
- sidewndr46 3y ago
  What country is that, if you don't mind me asking?
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    Not OP but every couple years Bermuda and Turks and Caicos Islands tries to integrate with Canada.

jmyeet 3y ago

Fun story: a lot of Puerto Rico's problems are linked to a mis-translation of the Constitution from Spanish to English [1]: > The big spending was fueled by a translation error between Spanish and English in the island's 1952 constitution. It enabled Puerto Rico to issue debt to fund many activities, including day-to-day operations. It all comes down to the interpretation of the phrase "recursos totales" -- total revenue or total resources? It was interpreted as resources, which is a broader term allowing the government to fund regular operations (e.g. education, policing, health care, etc.) via bonds. In Spanish "recursos totales" is better translated as "total revenue" not "total resources". [1]: https://money.cnn.com/2016/05/12/investing/puerto-rico-debt-crisis/ https://money.cnn.com/2016/05/12/investing/puerto-rico-debt-...

pyuser583 3y ago
This is fascinating!
sammywater 3y ago
I've never seen recurso translated as "revenue", I've only see it translated as "resource". The same can be see in this etymology dictionary: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/recurso#Spanish https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/recurso#Spanish No mention of "revenue"-- not even in the latin root.
- Y_Y 3y ago
  My Spanish isn't native, but my reaction was the same as yours. It may well be an archaic usage though, and etymology won't solve that for you. (All the same wiktionary is a perfectly good general-purpose dictionary).
- jmyeet 3y ago
  I'm not a Spanish speaker so I'm reliant on these accounts. Here's a more detailed explanation [1]: > The legal framework for a balanced budget dates back to Section 34 of the 1917 Jones-Shafroth Act, which states that “No appropriation shall be made, nor any expenditure authorized by the legislature, whereby the expenditure of the Government of Porto Rico during any fiscal year shall exceed the total revenue then provided for by law and applicable for such appropriation or expenditure, including any available surplus in the treasury, unless the legislature making such appropriation shall provide for levying a sufficient tax to pay such appropriation or expenditure within such fiscal year.” A provision in Puerto Rico’s Constitution, which was approved in 1952, contains similar language in English: The appropriations made for any fiscal year shall not exceed the total revenues, including available surplus, estimated for said fiscal year unless the imposition of taxes sufficient to cover said appropriations is provided by law. P.R. Const., art. VI, §7. The Spanish translation of the Constitution, however, translated revenues as “recursos” which can also be interpreted to mean resources. A 1974 ruling by Puerto Rico’s attorney general clarified the legal meaning of “recursos” to a broader general definition of resources available to the government, including proceeds of bond issuances. P.R. Op. Sec. Just. 1974-15, 19 The way this reads is backwards to what I previously read (and stated) where "revenues" was translated into Spanish later to "recursos" in 1952, which was interpreted to include debt, bypassing the original 1917 act for a balanced budget. [1]: https://www.gao.gov/assets/700/691944.pdf https://www.gao.gov/assets/700/691944.pdf

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

Proven 3y ago

[dead]

boredumb 3y ago

Puerto Rico is amazing in a million ways... Butttt, there is a lot of government corruption and misallocation of funds for infrastructure among other things. There is a burgeoning tech scene and a lot of well educated folks here to do the heavy lifting. The taxes on locals are too high and there is a massive hangover from government pensions of yesteryear. The amount of grifting that goes on focusing on PR being a 3rd world hellscape for their own views/clicks/etc is insane.

debacle 3y ago
Thank you for this comment! There are parts of Puerto Rico that are "3rd world hellscapes," but they are tiny and not the norm. It is a beautiful island with a ton of natural resources and hardworking people. Where else can you drive 3 hours and go from dense rainforest to absolute desert, spend your morning snorkeling pristine reefs and your evening deep in the mountains, and see a mix of old and new everywhere?
- irrational 3y ago
  But, do you want to go deep in the mountains? I lived in Morovis for about 4 months. I’ve never seen anywhere more infested with more cockroaches and rats in my life.
  - debacle 3y ago
    Jayuya is one of my favorite places in the world, but you are right the bugs are out of control. Especially at night, two screens on the windows and the buzzing all night.
  - boredumb 3y ago
    You just needed a few cats and some chickens :D I live outside the metro area and there are definitely 4x4 only areas as far as transportation and it becomes quite rural pretty quick in the hills. Not to mention the chupacabra.
- koprulusector 3y ago

TheAceOfHearts 3y ago

I want to note two salient points which are missing from this writeup: (1) the PROMESA board is unelected (2) the Supreme Court has ruled that the board doesn't have to provide requested documents and transparency. This is the face of colonialism and tyranny.

koprulusector 3y ago
Without knowing anything on the topic, what you’ve described definitely sounds like a good way to promote corruption and stall progress.
Y_Y 3y ago
Not according to the UN. https://www.un.org/dppa/decolonization/en/nsgt https://www.un.org/dppa/decolonization/en/nsgt They do call the USVIs a colony though, and I do accept that the US has outsize influence in these matters and has gotten off easy in the decolonisation game.
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  How many senators does the UN send to DC?
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    The same number as Puerto Rico. Not sure how that’s relevant, though.

photochemsyn 3y ago

Puerto Rico could be energy-independent if the US government changed the energy policy that it dictates to the colony with no say of the inhabitants. It's optimaly located for a 100% solar-PV system (see South Australia for comparison). As it stands, it has to import a lot of fossil fuel: https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insights/latest-news/oil/041322-feature-faraway-war-slows-puerto-ricos-refined-oil-product-imports-especially-from-russia-baltics https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insight...

prottog 3y ago
> It's optimaly located for a 100% solar-PV system (see South Australia for comparison) How does it compare to South Australia? SA reaches from 38-26 degrees of latitude, with empty scorching desert in the north (towards the equator) suitable for mass solar generation. Puerto Rich is just north of 18 degrees of latitude with a predominantly tropical climate, meaning lots of clouds and rain. San Juan, for example, gets just under 3000 hours of sunshine a year, which is similar to places like Memphis or Oklahoma City (vs. Las Vegas, for example, at 3800 hours).
nocoiner 3y ago
It also has enormous hydro power potential. The environmental ramifications would probably make this a non-starter though. Renewable energy ought to be a no-brainer for PR, though. I just wish the utility wasn’t stuck in a spot where it has to triage the basic delivery of electricity and a minimally functioning grid, and instead could focus on investing on rebuilding the overall generation and distribution system.
bigie35 3y ago
My family is from there (I was born there) and my parents just installed a solar roof and panels, I can't remember the metrics (sorry) but the house was consuming .5 of the energy and exporting over 3 to the grid. My parents have batteries as well for the solar power. Sorry not super helpful...

pphysch 3y ago

I'm just glad there's no foreign power occupying PR with troops and backing separatist groups there. That would be a mess. Glad stuff like that doesn't happen in the 21st century. It is interesting that the proposed act would allow PRcans to vote for independence, but Washington would get to shape the constitution.

nocoiner 3y ago

There’s at least one thing in the article that I’m pretty sure is incorrect - it says $33 billion in debt obligations were cut down through the PROMESA restructuring. I think that vastly understated the magnitude of the debt; I believe it was more on the order of $130 billion. I watched the restructuring pretty closely for a while but eventually lost interest after a series of will they/won’t they court decisions. I hope it delivers a sustainable outcome to the island. It’s a wonderful place and deserves better than what it’s been through in recent years.

bigie35 3y ago

Since my little island is hardly if ever mentioned in these parts I thought i'd throw out a few interesting tidbits. 1. It has three bioluminescent bays : https://www.discoverpuertorico.com/article/guide-to-exploring-puerto-ricos-bioluminescent-bays#:~:text=Puerto%20Rico's%20three%20bioluminescent%20bays,t%20miss%20in%20Puerto%20Rico https://www.discoverpuertorico.com/article/guide-to-explorin.... 2. It has one of the top 10 beaches in the world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamenco_Beach https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamenco_Beach 3. I can't find the stat now, but I think Puerto Rico produces a ton of engineers relative to it's population. Also has pretty good representation at NASA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Puerto_Ricans_in_the_United_States_Space_Program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Puerto_Ricans_in_the_U... DM if you want recco's on the island! I'm from Aguada so can help on the west coast :-)

miamibre 3y ago
Also it has the ONLY tropical rainforest in the entire US in el Yunque!
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

dave333 3y ago

Went there in Feb 1998 to take a cruise for the total eclipse and drove up to Arecibo and got a tour of the dish. Beautiful countryside everywhere although we didn't get out of the car much. The salsa(?) music in our hotel bar was amazing - the place was jumping all night.