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Ford EV Customers to Gain Access to 12,000 Tesla Superchargers
- sposeray 3y ago[dead]
- photonbucket 3y agoOne of the nice things about Teslas is that you get access to the Supercharger network. If more brands have that then I worry that they'll see even higher utilization/crowding. I hope they build more to accommodate the extra load
- electrondood 3y agoSoftware automatically routes you to the least busy local supercharger, and they're engaged in massive (further) expansion of superchargers.
- duttonw 3y agoThere is big $$$ in the charger network in huge handouts from federal government in USA. This will just accelerate the number of chargers being brought online for tesla. Also note that Tesla can still skew the utlliization so that other brands are not notified of available slots at super busy locations.
- cavisne 3y agoYes and to be eligible for that they needed to support at least 2 automakers. This gets them there without having to retrofit stations with ccs
- jillesvangurp 3y agoNot just in the US. The amount of chargers is growing by double digit percentages in many countries. Tesla's network is one of the larger and more mature/reliable ones but they are not the only ones by far and there are many billions being invested in this sector. Utilization of this infrastructure remains fairly low. Most of this is being done in anticipation of massive growth in demand in the next few years. And while people obsess over fast chargers, the real deal is actually slower charging in parking lots, parking garages, shopping malls etc. Those are a lot cheaper and easier to install and they are similar in cost to what people would install at home. Basically, most of the charging happens at home or chargers like that while the driver is doing something else. A lot of venues try to draw in customers by providing them with charging opportunities and they are fairly cheap to install. There are already quite many of those. Hundreds of thousands of them. They're everywhere. You use fast chargers at a premium when you have to on longer journeys. Plug it in for 20-30 minutes and continue driving for a few hours. Not that big of a deal. But slower charging is better for your wallet and battery and if you are parking the car anyway, you might as well plug it in to gain a few extra kwh. It won't delay you or cost you much. For most typical EV drivers, that's all they need most of the time. The vast majority of charging is slow charging and it doesn't involve people waiting for that. On average people only drive maybe 10-20 miles on a typical day. That's only about 4-6kwh. You don't need a fast charger for that. Plug it in at home once every few days or at the mall while you are shopping, having some coffee, at work, etc. There are plenty of opportunities for charging even if you don't have a charger at home.
- flutas 3y agoThe big problem right now is Tesla (and others) can’t get the transformers they need (52+ week lead time) to install chargers. Iirc Tesla has dropped to installing something like only 50 total chargers (not sites, individual chargers) in May due to it.
- _ea1k 3y agoTesla installed ~33 new sites representing over 270 new chargers during May, so far. They'll likely get at least a few more sites done by the end of the month.
- flutas 3y ago> Tesla installed ~33 new sites representing over 270 new chargers during May, so far. You're conflating two different counts there. Tesla has commissioned 33 new sites in May. Construction on most of those started in 2+ months ago. They have started construction on 8 superchargers in the month of May so far, consisting of 96 stalls. With this being a long weekend, that basically leaves them with 2 working days, so I doubt many more entering construction. They are trending down due to the shortage. Construction started: May: 8 sites, 96 stalls April: 11 sites, 162 stalls March: 12 sites, 192 stalls Additionally, it's not hard to find evidence of the transformer shortage. https://archive.is/N6gRW https://archive.is/N6gRW > Today, the average time for obtaining new transformers in the US has grown from about two months prior to 2021 to 12 months in 2022, according to a survey of public power utilities. > Already, the shortage has forced 20 per cent of utility companies to either delay or cancel electrical grid projects. Home builders have experienced months-long delays in constructing new houses and apartments because of wait times for connecting with local electrical grids.
- _ea1k 3y agoThat's an extraordinary claim, tbh. Just poking around on Supercharger.info shows ~32 sites starting construction since the beginning of May. That might be overcounting slightly if they overlooked some that started a little earlier, but I doubt it is overcounting by 4x. The transformer shortage is not a new problem. There's a reason that the pace of openings hasn't really changed that much.
- _ea1k 3y agoThere is a lot of competition for those dollars, and a lot of states won't even dole them out until next year. It wouldn't be surprising if Tesla doesn't get that much of the money. TBH, Tesla's current V3 offering doesn't quite meet NEVI standards regardless of the connector.
- acchow 3y agoTesla can probably make more profit long term from selling energy than their cars. Otherwise they would DRM the charger network (easy to do since their vehicles are internet-connected)
- linsomniac 3y agoI mean, people have been saying for years: "Tesla isn't a car company, it's an energy company."
- stetrain 3y agoIn the US they're opening a new station around once a day, each station has 8, 12, or sometimes dozens of charging stalls. They're on track to double the current network in around 5 years assuming no further acceleration in installations. https://supercharge.info/changes https://supercharge.info/changes
- msh 3y agoIn my country (denmark) Tesla have opened up most of their chargers to other brands, I have not see any negative effects.
- _ea1k 3y agoIn some areas, Tesla has had issues getting sites to partner with them, due to the exclusivity. Having more manufacturers onboard helps them to get more site hosts onboard. Its probably a net benefit for them, given how quickly they are willing to roll out sites when suitable options are available to them.
- King-Aaron 3y agoWith this change, it feels like even though Tesla may be overtaken by the rest of the automotive industry on cars themselves, they seem to have cemented their place as the eventual leader in consumer filling stations.
- faeriechangling 3y agoSounds like the perfect legacy for Elon Musk to have once he goes for broke and his other ventures are forgotten. The Supercharger guy.
- jojobas 3y agoIs there much investment required to set up a charging station? There is a requirement of be HV capacity sure, but it would seem some transformers and power electronics is not as expensive as burying fuel tanks underground.
- King-Aaron 3y agoI'm honestly not entirely sure, but I don't imagine it's a cheap investment. I just did a quick google and this site mentions: > Hardware costs for a Public DC electric vehicle charging station are very expensive ranging from between $40,000-$100,000 per charging station. and > In addition to high hardware costs, installation can also be very expensive given the frequent need to install a 480V transformer, upgrade the electrical supply as well as the permitting and increased labor time needed for the project. Installation costs would likely range from between $15,000-$60,000 depending on the specific nature of the project. https://evse.com.au/blog/evchargercost/ https://evse.com.au/blog/evchargercost/ Note this an Australian site so it'll be in AUD, and I have no idea on the validity of these numbers. I know at one of our client sites (mining) they recently set up a charging station for vehicles that tipped into the $millions. But apples and oranges in that regard.
- jojobas 3y agoApparently building a petrol station is on the order of a million dollars in the US, so it would appear to be on par?
- ck2 3y agoCould we reach a point in a decade where it's so cheap in new construction to build parking lots where every spot has a charger? Stores could encourage visitors vs online shopping by making the charge free after checkout.
- kcb 3y agoLevel 2 AC charging probably. Level 3 DC 100KW+ fast charging probably not. Fast charging requires quite a bit of high power electronics to convert that grid power into DC. That's why for Tesla Superchargers, the real guts are in big cabinets off to the side.
- thrill 3y agoAbsolutely. Eventually we'll have magnetic chargers under every parking space.
- FullyFunctional 3y agoThat and flying cars too. Magnetic chargers are far less efficient and highly placement sensitive. They just don't make any sense. A mere gimmick.
- wmf 3y agoBah, we need CCS solidarity to improve that network for everyone, not EV makers defecting to the Tesla connector. Also the "North American Charging Standard" is revisionist doublespeak.
- frumper 3y agoWe need a standard, but why CCS and not the Tesla one? One of those plugs has a network of great chargers, the other does not.
- resolutebat 3y agoThe entire rest of the world, including Teslas outside the US, use CCS. (Yes, CHAdeMO still exists, but even the Japanese are giving up on it.) The only reason Tesla uses NACS in the US is that CCS did not exist at the time they started rolling out the Supercharger network.
- pokerhobo 3y agoCCS type-1 (North America) and CCS type-2 (Europe) are NOT compatible. And China has their own standard.
- frumper 3y agoI'm glad we cleared up history and it makes perfect sense why Tesla isn't using CCS in America. You don't seem to care that it would benefit all of the bad networks in America while costing the well run one. I'm not sure why it matters what the rest of the world does. A charging plug seems a lot less of a change than say putting the driver on a different side of the car. Bonus points, you can even use a converter between the two plugs if you take your American Tesla to Europe!
- SkinTaco 3y ago[flagged]
- albrewer 3y ago
- candiddevmike 3y agoAs a non-EV owner, how much do charging stations cost typically? What's the price of a "fill up"?
- PaulMest 3y agoI rarely have to use Superchargers because I have charging at home. But when I do, it's about $25 for an 80% top up (e.g. going from 10% -> 90%) in my Model Y. Just looked it up: $0.45/kWh the last 4 times at Tesla Superchargers in California.
- conk 3y agoAbout 50 cents per kWh at something like a supercharger. Most EVs get around 3 miles per kWh. So 300 miles of charging is about 100 kWh or $50.
- conk 3y agoCharging at home is typically cheaper. Around 1/2 to 1/3 of the cost of a public charger. There are also some free public chargers but they are typically slower charge around 6kW and are limited to an hour or 2.
- Armisael16 3y agoDepends strongly on the area. I’ve never seen any above 41c/kWh, and one of my local chargers does 13c/kWh after 8pm.
- blindriver 3y agoIn the Bay Area, during most daylight hours its around $0.50/kWh, but I've seen it at 0.60 sometimes.
- p1mrx 3y agoFor one example, Electrify America is $4/month + $0.36/kWh. (You can pay the $4 and immediately cancel, before a road trip.) Assuming 4 miles/kWh, that's $36 to drive 400 miles. Charging at home cuts the cost roughly in half. These numbers vary depending on location.
- 3y ago
- blindriver 3y agoComplete mistake by Tesla. The superchargers in some areas are already clogged up, if there's a long line to charge it is getting rid of the one market differentiator that Tesla has that most companies wouldn't invest in. The supercharger network is one of the reasons why I stayed with Tesla instead of getting the BMW i4.
- asynchronous 3y agoThey didn’t WANT to do this, your government has overreached and forced a private company to do this.
- blindriver 3y agoNo, they enticed Tesla with some sort of tax benefits or something. They weren't forced.
- asynchronous 3y agoThey literally threatened Musk if he didn’t eventually settle a deal.
- iknowstuff 3y agoThreatened how
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> literally threatened Musk if he didn’t eventually settle a deal This is nonsense. Congress gave him tax breaks.
- comte7092 3y agoSeems like a great result to me. More government overreach if this is what we get!
- absoflutely 3y agoIt's not overreach lmao
- golemiprague 3y agoWhy petrol has one interface similar for all cars and electricity has same interface for all buildings but somehow car charging became many different interfaces? They should standardise it the same way they did for charging cables in Europe.
- iknowstuff 3y agomostly because CCS1 is fucking ridiculous. But also have you ever actually been to a gas station? Have you not seen the three or four nozzles for diesel, pb free 95, 98 and whatever other upsell?
- golemiprague 3y ago[dead]
- linsomniac 3y agoL5, L6, NEMA 14-50, NEMA 5-15, NEMA 5-20, NEMA 14-30, NEMA 11-30, just to name the ones I deal with at home and at the office... And that's not dealing with anything terribly esoteric, like 3 phase, generators, or industrial equipment. Petrol has several interfaces as well: diesel and unleaded are slightly different, and leaded is different again.
- eclarkso 3y agoDon't forget unleaded octane ratings!
- golemiprague 3y ago[dead]
- eimrine 3y agoAny electricity standard is doomed to be endataned (digitalized, certificatenizated, turned to requiring to run some non-free applications in order to use it). Liquids are too hard to conjunct with data but printer cartridges industry is doing a great research in this direction and who knows, maybe in 100 years from now we are gonna to buy some plastic thing with computers running some proprietary code in order just to refuel your petrol car or tractor.
- asynchronous 3y agoI’m personally pissed at this news, Tesla long ago offered to share their charging port spec with other car manufacturers, and they all told them to pound sand. Nearly a decade later, Congress literally forces Tesla to open up their network because it’s so superior to the competition. If a Ford F150e takes up two hours charging in a stall that’s designed to charge a Tesla in 15 minutes, there’s gonna be huge delays in certain areas.
- Tagbert 3y agoYou might also end up waiting for a Cybertruck to charge.
- KerrAvon 3y agoCongress didn’t compel this. They passed tax incentives to make it desirable.
- simondotau 3y agoThat's literally what compel means (as opposed to require or mandate).
- simondotau 3y agoTo the one person who decided to down vote what I just said, consider the meaning of “compelling”.
- jahewson 3y agoI have a non-Tesla EV and the Ford and Rivian trucks that have now hit the market have ruined public charging. As you say, they hog the space for literally hours when everyone else needs 20mins. I finally gave in and purchased a home charger despite still having a special deal on free public charging.
- throw3823423 3y agoIn an efficient world, charging costs would have significant time factor to account for opportunity costs. The supercharger network already charges an idle fee if the charger is busy and you don't leave your space when fully charged. The same idea could apply for charging slowly.
- johnbatch 3y ago“In 2025, Ford will offer next-generation electric vehicles with the North American Charging Standard (NACS) connector built-in, eliminating the need for an adapter to access Tesla Superchargers” That’s massive that another automaker is adding the Tesla connector. I’d rather Tesla add the CCS connector, but it will be interesting if Tesla uses their charger network access to push other automakers to add the Tesla connector.
- breput 3y agoThere are already a handful of Superchargers that have a CCS adapter built in[0]. Thanks to US federal money, some locations are already set up to charge both Tesla/NACS cars as well as CCS vehicles[1]. These will expand, but if either Hyundai and/or GM now switches to NACS, CCS is dead in the USA. The physical layer is easy - mostly just plastic and metal contacts, as well as minor electrical differences. The reliability and payment layer is where Tesla has way outperformed and it will be interesting to see if Ford can support that with their "Ford Pay" system. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=240R6RhLGj0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=240R6RhLGj0 [1] https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/ev-chargers/how-well-do-tesla-superchargers-work-for-non-tesla-evs-a4713673565/ https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/ev-chargers/how-well-do...
- simondotau 3y agoYou are correct though it's slightly more complicated than swapping out the sockets. That's enough to get NACS compatibility, but may not be sufficient for proper compatibility with Tesla's Supercharger network. It assumes the charging port is physically located on the rear left corner (or front right corner) of the vehicle. If the charging port is on the rear right (or front left) corner, they won't line up correctly with Tesla's stalls.
- clouddrover 3y ago> If the charging port is on the rear right (or front left) corner, they won't line up correctly with Tesla's stalls. So what? It's up to Tesla to build better chargers. Here's a start: https://www.theverge.com/2023/4/19/23689247/tesla-v4-supercharger-ev-first-specs-rollout https://www.theverge.com/2023/4/19/23689247/tesla-v4-superch...
- vivegi 3y agoGood. EV charging infra should be a utility. This move by Ford is a step in the right direction that increases the network effect for the charging infra.
- resolutebat 3y agoLetting Ford use the Tesla charging network is fine, but forcing Ford to adopt NACS is a major step in the wrong direction. The entire rest of the world has converged on CCS, including current Tesla vehicles outside the US, and even Japanese manufacturers have adopted CCS and pretty much given up on CHAdeMO. But nope, instead of taking this opportunity to standardize, Tesla has now guaranteed that at least two incompatible standards will continue to duke it out for years to come in US.
- pokerhobo 3y agoTesla did not force Ford to adopt NACS. The announcement is from Ford, not Tesla. Tesla is already opening up Superchargers using Magic Dock for existing CCS-1 EVs. Ford sees the benefit of NACS and simplifying the experience for their customers to the largest charging network. Looks like a win-win to me.
- wilg 3y agoUS CCS (1) and European CCS (2) are incompatible anyway so that’s moot. Also China uses neither.
- sebazzz 3y agoAlso US and European cars are always a little different, even if it is the same model. Take brake and turn signals for instance. There are different regulations, and at that point it is a different SKU anyway.
- mvdtnz 3y agoTesla must be getting desperate to give away a huge competitive advantage. Between this and using BYD batteries they are clearly being forced into some really uncomfortable business relationships.
- seanmcdirmid 3y agoChina limits LFP batteries from not being put into cars that aren't made in China (they literally can't export them unless they are in a vehicle), and they have a distinct cost advantage even if they are heavier. Tesla is using those batteries to get the Model 3 there to $30k (which is the limit to qualify for the current subsidies in China). It is a brilliant move by China: they have the tech, no one else seems to have it, and by not exporting it outside of completed cars, they can get an advantage.
- _ea1k 3y agoIf that is true, where do the LFP batteries for US made Model 3 come from?
- seanmcdirmid 3y agoThe US model 3 didn’t use LFP. See https://evcentral.com.au/teslas-made-in-china-versus-the-usa-whats-the-difference-the-ultimate-model-3-sr-comparison-test/#:~:text=While%20the%20cars%20look%20identical,aluminium%20oxide%20(NCA)%20batteries https://evcentral.com.au/teslas-made-in-china-versus-the-usa.... > While the cars look identical to those still made in America, there is one key difference: the batteries. > Chinese Model 3s use lithium-iron phosphate (or lithium ferro phosphate/LFP) batteries instead of the previous lithium nickel cobalt aluminium oxide (NCA) batteries. But maybe this changed recently? Here it says the model 3 standard doesn’t qualify for the credit because it uses a Chinese made LFP: https://pandaily.com/batteries-from-chinese-made-tesla-model-3-standard-range-version-lose-tax-break/ https://pandaily.com/batteries-from-chinese-made-tesla-model...
- _ea1k 3y ago
- somerandomqaguy 3y agoThere was a thread a while ago commenting that 15% of cellphone users in the US don't use a smartphone. Another 3% don't have a cellphone at all. Probably save to assume also that a larger then 0% part of the smartphone population also don't have mobile data plans. Which begs the question; do Tesla superchargers have the ability of using only a credit card or cash? Is there any plan to?
- samcheng 3y agoYou just plug the cable into the car; the system knows the car's VIN and charges the card on file. There is no smartphone required. It's a nice, seamless system compared to the competition.
- vel0city 3y agoHow do you manage the card on file? Who is hosting the file?
- jgoldshlag 3y agoRight now, it is your Tesla account. I assume the Ford Pay stuff in there explains how other manufacturers will do it
- vel0city 3y agoAnd how do you manage your Tesla account? Through an app? My point is, I still need some app. I can't just go up to a Tesla charger and choose to pay with one credit card or the other without involving an app.
- ChrisClark 3y agoVisit a library and set it up on their website if you absolutely have no computer or internet access? In this case, the Tesla charging network is the only one that allows use without a cell phone app. The other charging networks are a mess, I have several apps installed for them.
- martin-adams 3y agoCertainly experiencing the demand for chargers going over capacity in the UK. What is more problematic is that there is no space to effectively queue making it a free for all.
- AYBABTME 3y agoThis is a clear eyed, smart move by Ford. Gives a good impression of their trajectory. For Tesla: other automaker will convert to NACS, rendering existing CCS chargers a relic of the past, leaving alternative charging networks in the dust and requiring massive retooling to come back. This positions Tesla as an energy provider like Shell/Chevron. Eventually I bet they'll be forced to split out the auto manufacturer from the energy vendor to avoid antitrust problems, but that will be in a while.
- mrDmrTmrJ 3y agoWhy would they be forced to do that? Assuming that they 1. Charge all customers the same price at each super-charger station. (Prices will vary with time of day and different super-charger charger locations.) 2. They open up their network to everyone voluntarily. I don't see an argument for self favoring or anti-trust. What am I missing? Why do you think that outcome will happen?
- AYBABTME 3y agoIn a world where Tesla is one of the biggest auto manufacturer AND holds a quasi monopoly on vehicle charging, I think there will be a point where governments will want Tesla Auto and Tesla Energy to not be the same, as they'll hold too many pieces of the puzzle. But that's highly speculative of course, and it's just a possible development in a scenario where Tesla ends up being incredibly successful in the way I describe. Which of course is very arguable, as people have done for years.
- akira2501 3y ago> This positions Tesla as an energy provider like Shell/Chevron. And I was worried that the "green revolution" was going to be without rent seeking corporate greed getting involved. Yay?
- MrBuddyCasino 3y agoIf there is no reward for making superior products, who will bother making them?
- fma 3y agoIt I'm reading this correctly they aren't really gaining access but just future models will default to NACS? They already have access today, via an adapter?
- DennisP 3y agoTesla has only made those adapters available at a few of their superchargers. In this deal, they're providing adapters to Ford, to be included with any EVs they sell. > Tesla will develop an adapter that will be provided to customers who buy any of Ford’s EVs, including the F-150 Lightning truck, Mustang Mach-E, and E-Transit delivery van. https://www.theverge.com/2023/5/25/23737896/ford-tesla-ev-fast-charging-elon-musk-twitter-space https://www.theverge.com/2023/5/25/23737896/ford-tesla-ev-fa...
- x3874 3y agoCurrent Tesla owners will be happy to know that they have to share their waiting lines now with even more people.
- _ea1k 3y agoNot a big issue, tbh. Tesla is expanding their footprint faster than the rest of the industry combined. When they have capacity issues, they fix them, sometimes with really incredible speed. Meanwhile, we've got states saying that they will deploy their first NEVI installations late next year. But the lines at CCS stations already exist!
- brianwawok 3y ago0 lines in the Midwest. Have 50k miles on my Tesla and literally had to wait 1 time to charge while visiting FL. They can for sure build up Cali and catch up to demand. It’s a solvable problem. The fact they just work is so huge.
- natch 3y ago0 lines in California as well. They are adding a ridiculous amount of capacity. Of course people are buying more cars too so they have to keep adding capacity even beyond what they have now.
- Rebelgecko 3y ago>0 lines in California as well That is not true at all, at least around me (Los Angeles). The mall by me has a supercharger and a set of CCS chargers. The supercharger often has a line, but I've never seen one at the CCS chargers
- andruby 3y agoMore users of the chargers → more revenue for Tesla → more superchargers in more locations → less waiting time moreover, in the EU non-Tesla's pay a higher price per kWh, I assume this is the same in the US? This would give Tesla even more resources to expand faster. Tesla superchargers are a lot more reliable and easier to use than the alternative fast-chargers. So I'm happy that they opened up and will expand faster.
- 1970-01-01 3y agoFord is the 3rd biggest EV company in the US. The start-ups (Lucid, Rivian, Canoo, etc.) will hold meetings to discuss this change. Switching to NACS could be the difference between their success or slow failure. GM will be GM and simply call this a big mistake until EV sales are affected.
- _ea1k 3y agoI think Ford will pull into second by the end of the year. GM is in second, but as you pointed out, GM is really slow.
- brianwawok 3y agoAs far as I can tell Ford is still losing money on every EV sold (while Tesla is making 20% margin). Not sure how much they can grow if they can’t flip to profitable.
- jjoonathan 3y agoAre they still losing money if you take out fixed costs? Or are they "losing money on every EV" in the sense that the first car off a $5B production line is a $5B loss (modulo depreciation schedule)?
- simondotau 3y agoYes. They're losing money as in negative profit margin per unit. The more units they sell, the more money they lose.
- Tagbert 3y agoAre you basing that on their recent financial report where they showed a $3B loss? That was not an operational cost (cost of sales). It was a capitol cost (infrastructure to build and equip factories). That is not what would normally be thought of as a loss per unit.
- 1970-01-01 3y agoJust 6 months ago: Opening the North American charging standard https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33564558 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33564558
- helsinki 3y agoOh, great. I can't wait to go to charge my tesla and be forced to wait for 30 Ford Focus and Mustang to finish up their charge.