4 ms·

This is a phenomenal showcase for the utter failure of the war on drugs. Regulate it, tax it, ensure folks can safely use, and help them stop using when they'r

This is a phenomenal showcase for the utter failure of the war on drugs. Regulate it, tax it, ensure folks can safely use, and help them stop using when they're ready.

next_xibalba 3y ago
[flagged]
- quantified 3y ago
  Showcase the hardcore users to scare kids straight.
  - dismalpedigree 3y ago
    This is your brain on drugs.
    - 1letterunixname 3y ago
      Just say "no" to any more out-of-touch, tone-deaf Nancy Reagans bringing their tired PSAs.
  - bdcravens 3y ago
    It's hard enough keeping books in libraries with the mildest of subject matter.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > hardcore users to scare kids straight Evidence shows these tactics being between ineffective [1] and backfiring splendidly [2]. It did in my peer group. Because you see a friend smoke a blunt or do a line and, lo and behold, their teeth don’t fall out. That crisis of credibility then corrodes the entire message. Fact-based messaging together with testing to ensure purity makes more sense than Puritanical fear mongering. [1] https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.94.6.1027?download=true https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.94.6.... [2] https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/108479/Stibe_2016b_Cugelman_Backfiring.pdf?sequence=2&isAllowed=y https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/108479/Stibe_...
    - quantified 3y ago
      We're closer in thinking than my quick sentence suggests. Some facts are a bit ruder than others. We have long had perfectly functional alcohol, cannabis, MDMA, cocaine, LSD, mushroom, ketamine, and amphetamine users. There are good guidelines for how to safely use these and stay out of trouble. Fentanyl, well, the folks lying in the gutter or folded over in their wheelchairs in SF at night are sort of a warning. And on the purity testing, well, it's a PITA to need to test so many things for the absence of added fentanyl.
- robbiep 3y ago
  Injecting rooms are a well known and demonstrated way of providing a safe space for IV drug users whilst also providing the opportunity to engage and provide information and services to get help. I don’t particularly think opiates should be legalised but I definitely think harm minimisation is a way to minimise human misery
  - repeekad 3y ago
    Maybe in a lab setting, but implemented on the streets real life kicks in. Here’s an example in SF where “provide information and services to get help” is laughable: https://youtu.be/7g5Mb-ktGxQ?t=180 https://youtu.be/7g5Mb-ktGxQ?t=180
- schrectacular 3y ago
  It's not the opioids causing the tent cities, it's the new generation of meth synthesized from phenyl-2-propanone (rather than ephedrine). Check out this article[1] or Sam Quinones book "The Least of Us" [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/11/the-new-meth/620174/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/11/the-new...
- gtop3 3y ago
  > How does one “safely use” life destroying opioids? 1. Sanitation. This is huge for IV specifically. 2. Known purity, known dosage, no toxic additives. 3. Different opioids have different safety profiles. Even diacetylmorphine has a much higher safety record than popular modern synthetic opioids. 4. Your settings matter. Don't operate a vehicle. Be near people with narcan.
- elif 3y ago
  I don't think the answer to the opioid epidemic is being proposed as "different opioids" by drug war antagonists.. How many people would spend $20 on mystery sometimes suicide pills for a couple hours of forgettable high and days of feeling shitty afterwards if they had the option of spending $1 on a tab of certifiably pure LSD? Certainly at least some would change their behavior.
- kragen 3y ago
  though i wouldn't recommend starting, lots of junkies do live to a ripe old age without suffering any worse effects than constipation but not if their supply chains are constantly being disrupted and/or substituted with different opiates in unknown dosages
  - 1letterunixname 3y ago
    I know of a kind, scruffy, old homeless gent in the south SF Bay Area with awful bent back and no teeth. He admitted to being hooked on heroin for most of his adult life. His mind was actually quite sharp and intact for any age but his body was a trainwreck. Meth mouth is also a thing, but that's different. Folks who use meth look have a look like they use drugs. They look both sickly and old. I recall my mother's second cousin (similar age) who looked about twice my mom's age because she used meth.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
justrealist 3y ago
This advice might have been true for pot or cocaine or even heroin, but is demonstrably untrue for Fentanyl. It's simply too strong. Once you're on it, you don't want help, or a life — you want Fentanyl. I'm sorry, but the rules have changed, and policy needs to adapt.
- kibwen 3y ago
  This is trying to say that decriminalizing opioid usage is not the solution; in that case, what is the solution that you propose? The war on drugs has demonstrably been a spectacular failure thus far.
  - justrealist 3y ago
    > The war on drugs has demonstrably been a spectacular failure thus far. The US war on drugs has not done well. But there are other countries which in fact have almost no drug use — Singapore, Taiwan, China, among others. There demonstrably are ways to wage a war on drugs in a democracy that work.
    - glerk 3y ago
      Ah yes countries where you face long prison sentences or, in the case of Singapore, the death penalty, for weed possession. This is the kind of society you want to live in?
      - justrealist 3y ago
        No, I don't want the death penalty for dealing or consuming weed. But yes, I think a death penalty for dealing fentanyl is appropriate.
        xref 3y ago
        The death penalty for murder isn’t appropriate.
    - 3y ago
dfdg 3y ago
People who say tax it and regulate it have no idea about drugs. Most people are getting drug addictis bcz of painkillers which have been regulated and taxed.
- xtracto 3y ago
  If you make drugs illegal you have a health problem and a criminal problem. If you regulate it and make it legal, you only have a health problem.
- eschaton 3y ago
  And you think this refutes the argument how? Obviously being illegal didn’t prevent addiction, and being legal also doesn’t prevent addiction. Perhaps when it comes to “drug addiction,” the part that actually needs to be addressed is “addiction.” There are a variety of treatments with a variety of degrees of efficacy but they all involve mitigating harm and providing safe and supportive environments. Too bad it scored political points with the ignorant to just demonize addicted people and the things to which they’re addicted, almost as if that was the actual reason for the “war” on drugs. (Hint: Look up Nixon & crew’s reasoning.)
1letterunixname 3y ago
Portugal is the showcase. There are too many ignorant commenters who would rather continue wasting treasure on the failed, racist, militarized Prohibition and enrichment of criminals instead of adapting to what works in the real world: harm reduction and healthcare, not throw away the key.
- throw_m239339 3y ago
  > Portugal is the showcase. There are too many ignorant commenters who would rather continue wasting treasure on the failed, racist, militarized Prohibition and enrichment of criminals instead of adapting to what works in the real world: harm reduction and healthcare, not throw away the key. That websites says: > Portugal has not changed the legal status of any drugs. They all remain illegal, however, the offence for possession has been changed from a criminal to a civil one. > Portugal decriminalised use and possession of all drugs in a way that moves the focus from criminal punishment to treatment. > Drugs are not freely available, and they cannot legally be sold. If you are caught with a possession quantity of a drug, there are still civil consequences. > The manufacture, importation and sale of drugs is still very illegal. Even growing your own cannabis is still a criminal matter, as is the possession of cannabis seeds. So is this what the parent means when they say "regulate it, tax it"? How are recreational drugs "taxed" when they remain illegal? https://www.drugfoundation.org.nz/matters-of-substance/archive/may-2013/drugs-are-legal-portugal/ https://www.drugfoundation.org.nz/matters-of-substance/archi...

This is a phenomenal showcase for the utter failure of the war on drugs. Regulate it, tax it, ensure folks can safely use, and help them stop using when they're ready.

next_xibalba 3y ago

[flagged]

quantified 3y ago
Showcase the hardcore users to scare kids straight.
- dismalpedigree 3y ago
  This is your brain on drugs.
  - 1letterunixname 3y ago
    Just say "no" to any more out-of-touch, tone-deaf Nancy Reagans bringing their tired PSAs.
- bdcravens 3y ago
  It's hard enough keeping books in libraries with the mildest of subject matter.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > hardcore users to scare kids straight Evidence shows these tactics being between ineffective [1] and backfiring splendidly [2]. It did in my peer group. Because you see a friend smoke a blunt or do a line and, lo and behold, their teeth don’t fall out. That crisis of credibility then corrodes the entire message. Fact-based messaging together with testing to ensure purity makes more sense than Puritanical fear mongering. [1] https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.94.6.1027?download=true https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.94.6.... [2] https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/108479/Stibe_2016b_Cugelman_Backfiring.pdf?sequence=2&isAllowed=y https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/108479/Stibe_...
  - quantified 3y ago
    We're closer in thinking than my quick sentence suggests. Some facts are a bit ruder than others. We have long had perfectly functional alcohol, cannabis, MDMA, cocaine, LSD, mushroom, ketamine, and amphetamine users. There are good guidelines for how to safely use these and stay out of trouble. Fentanyl, well, the folks lying in the gutter or folded over in their wheelchairs in SF at night are sort of a warning. And on the purity testing, well, it's a PITA to need to test so many things for the absence of added fentanyl.
robbiep 3y ago
Injecting rooms are a well known and demonstrated way of providing a safe space for IV drug users whilst also providing the opportunity to engage and provide information and services to get help. I don’t particularly think opiates should be legalised but I definitely think harm minimisation is a way to minimise human misery
- repeekad 3y ago
  Maybe in a lab setting, but implemented on the streets real life kicks in. Here’s an example in SF where “provide information and services to get help” is laughable: https://youtu.be/7g5Mb-ktGxQ?t=180 https://youtu.be/7g5Mb-ktGxQ?t=180
schrectacular 3y ago
It's not the opioids causing the tent cities, it's the new generation of meth synthesized from phenyl-2-propanone (rather than ephedrine). Check out this article[1] or Sam Quinones book "The Least of Us" [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/11/the-new-meth/620174/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/11/the-new...
gtop3 3y ago
> How does one “safely use” life destroying opioids? 1. Sanitation. This is huge for IV specifically. 2. Known purity, known dosage, no toxic additives. 3. Different opioids have different safety profiles. Even diacetylmorphine has a much higher safety record than popular modern synthetic opioids. 4. Your settings matter. Don't operate a vehicle. Be near people with narcan.
elif 3y ago
I don't think the answer to the opioid epidemic is being proposed as "different opioids" by drug war antagonists.. How many people would spend $20 on mystery sometimes suicide pills for a couple hours of forgettable high and days of feeling shitty afterwards if they had the option of spending $1 on a tab of certifiably pure LSD? Certainly at least some would change their behavior.
kragen 3y ago
though i wouldn't recommend starting, lots of junkies do live to a ripe old age without suffering any worse effects than constipation but not if their supply chains are constantly being disrupted and/or substituted with different opiates in unknown dosages
- 1letterunixname 3y ago
  I know of a kind, scruffy, old homeless gent in the south SF Bay Area with awful bent back and no teeth. He admitted to being hooked on heroin for most of his adult life. His mind was actually quite sharp and intact for any age but his body was a trainwreck. Meth mouth is also a thing, but that's different. Folks who use meth look have a look like they use drugs. They look both sickly and old. I recall my mother's second cousin (similar age) who looked about twice my mom's age because she used meth.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

justrealist 3y ago

This advice might have been true for pot or cocaine or even heroin, but is demonstrably untrue for Fentanyl. It's simply too strong. Once you're on it, you don't want help, or a life — you want Fentanyl. I'm sorry, but the rules have changed, and policy needs to adapt.

kibwen 3y ago
This is trying to say that decriminalizing opioid usage is not the solution; in that case, what is the solution that you propose? The war on drugs has demonstrably been a spectacular failure thus far.
- justrealist 3y ago
  > The war on drugs has demonstrably been a spectacular failure thus far. The US war on drugs has not done well. But there are other countries which in fact have almost no drug use — Singapore, Taiwan, China, among others. There demonstrably are ways to wage a war on drugs in a democracy that work.
  - glerk 3y ago
    Ah yes countries where you face long prison sentences or, in the case of Singapore, the death penalty, for weed possession. This is the kind of society you want to live in?
    - justrealist 3y ago
      No, I don't want the death penalty for dealing or consuming weed. But yes, I think a death penalty for dealing fentanyl is appropriate.
      - xref 3y ago
        The death penalty for murder isn’t appropriate.
  - 3y ago

dfdg 3y ago

People who say tax it and regulate it have no idea about drugs. Most people are getting drug addictis bcz of painkillers which have been regulated and taxed.

xtracto 3y ago
If you make drugs illegal you have a health problem and a criminal problem. If you regulate it and make it legal, you only have a health problem.
eschaton 3y ago
And you think this refutes the argument how? Obviously being illegal didn’t prevent addiction, and being legal also doesn’t prevent addiction. Perhaps when it comes to “drug addiction,” the part that actually needs to be addressed is “addiction.” There are a variety of treatments with a variety of degrees of efficacy but they all involve mitigating harm and providing safe and supportive environments. Too bad it scored political points with the ignorant to just demonize addicted people and the things to which they’re addicted, almost as if that was the actual reason for the “war” on drugs. (Hint: Look up Nixon & crew’s reasoning.)

1letterunixname 3y ago

Portugal is the showcase. There are too many ignorant commenters who would rather continue wasting treasure on the failed, racist, militarized Prohibition and enrichment of criminals instead of adapting to what works in the real world: harm reduction and healthcare, not throw away the key.

throw_m239339 3y ago
> Portugal is the showcase. There are too many ignorant commenters who would rather continue wasting treasure on the failed, racist, militarized Prohibition and enrichment of criminals instead of adapting to what works in the real world: harm reduction and healthcare, not throw away the key. That websites says: > Portugal has not changed the legal status of any drugs. They all remain illegal, however, the offence for possession has been changed from a criminal to a civil one. > Portugal decriminalised use and possession of all drugs in a way that moves the focus from criminal punishment to treatment. > Drugs are not freely available, and they cannot legally be sold. If you are caught with a possession quantity of a drug, there are still civil consequences. > The manufacture, importation and sale of drugs is still very illegal. Even growing your own cannabis is still a criminal matter, as is the possession of cannabis seeds. So is this what the parent means when they say "regulate it, tax it"? How are recreational drugs "taxed" when they remain illegal? https://www.drugfoundation.org.nz/matters-of-substance/archive/may-2013/drugs-are-legal-portugal/ https://www.drugfoundation.org.nz/matters-of-substance/archi...