9 ms·

Good to see general resume improvements but ... Can we not try to force s2idle? It uses way too much power. I've not yet seen a laptop which is capable of stay

by consp 3y ago

Good to see general resume improvements but ... Can we not try to force s2idle? It uses way too much power. I've not yet seen a laptop which is capable of staying "sleeping" in s2idle as long as in s3 sleep. Correct me if I'm wrong though. I also don't really get why: s3 is more than fast enough to be awake when my laptop is open and I'm ready to login, the only "need to be faster" way I can see is when you do not lock you laptop and go straight to desktop but that has ... issues.

tpxl 3y ago
Can I get my S4 back? I've never had issues with it, as opposed to constant S2/3 issues, and the startup is still faster than having to look for a cable because S2/S3 managed to drain all the battery.
- aimor 3y ago
  What is the current situation with sleep states? I've been seeing lots of conversations the last two years and I just don't have a big level picture of why it's such an issue now. I only use S4 (hibernate) because I can ignore my laptop for weeks at a time, unplugged, and jump right back in to where I left off. Microsoft seems to have changed some things in Windows to hide the hibernate option for some reason I can't figure out.
  - secondcoming 3y ago
    Hibernate isn't great if you have lots of RAM. Windows won't allow you put the hiberfil.sys anywhere other than C:\. I was confused as to why my C: SSD appeared full until I figured it was because of hibernation (I have 128GB RAM).
    - jeroenhd 3y ago
      It's a shame hyberfil.sys can't be moved, but as I understand it, the reason behind it is that the kernel only has an extremely rudimentary NTFS driver at the point it resumes so I don't think it'll change soon. That said, with modern SSD prices I think the size it takes up is quite reasonable these days. For a while, when people were running 64GiB SSDs, the situation was a lot worse.
    - justsomehnguy 3y ago
      It's always amuses me when the systems are unbalanced. 'Gaming PC' with a latest i7 but a $200 video card. 'DB Server' with gigantic core count each at 2.0GHz (for less than 30 people of course). Of HDDs as a primary storage. Laptop with 128Gb of RAM yet insufficient storage to hold 128Gb hiberfil.sys.
      - fulafel 3y ago
        People also use hibernation on desktops, servers and VMs (traditionally when normal suspend has problems, but maybe nowadays when s2idle has insomnia problems).
        justsomehnguy 3y ago
        If you managed to get 128Gb of RAM in your desktop then you can manage to get a 1Tb SSD. Hibernation on a server? Pointless most of the time, because the bulk of the startup time is pre-OS. And hibernating VMs is just retarded.
        fulafel 3y ago
        Depends on the vintage. Up to about 2015 a 128 GB workstation config typically had a <= 512 GB boot SSD and some spinning disk as well. In servers it's actually quite nice in homelab style setups where you might want to preserve your working session states, or just doing it on a nightly schedule without worrying about losing work. For VMs it's of course useful to persist vm state to disk and suspend for lots of reasons (don't keep the RAM reseved, or free up VFIO passhthrough hardware for instance). But people often use hypervisor based snapshot for this. One advantage guest OS supported hibernation has it that your guest is aware of its own power state changes and can run your configured power management event hooks on suspend and wake. In the VFIO reddit it seems to be common for people who do windows vm gaming with gpu passthrough to prefer guest hibernate to hyprevisor side snapshots as well, not sure what are the main advantage there.
        Dylan16807 3y ago
- jeroenhd 3y ago
  Who took your S4? I can't say what other operating systems do these days, but both Linux and Windows support suspending to disk out of the box.
  - cesarb 3y ago
    > but both Linux and Windows support suspending to disk out of the box. At least with Linux, out of the box all you'll have is the message "Lockdown: systemd-logind: hibernation is restricted; see man kernel_lockdown.7" in your logs. (The trick is to either disable Secure Boot, or AFAIK make use of an encrypted swap partition; IIRC, there's a bug which makes it not recognize a swap volume within LVM within LUKS as encrypted swap, so it has to be directly on a disk partition.)
    - mecsred 3y ago
      I've run both a Secure Boot/encrypted boot partition NixOS and plain LVM on LUKS archlinux on my Framework and neither had any issues or bugs with hibernating. Just add a resume hook to mkinitcpio and a kernel parameter to the UUID of the swap vol and it works fine.
      - flipbrad 3y ago
        I'm a longtime Linux user, but even I had to chuckle at this reply - very much living up to our caricature!
        mecsred 3y ago
        Glad to represent!
fulafel 3y ago
S3 was mature so it had to be innovated away.
- b112 3y ago
  I literally have no issue if, for example, Microsoft wanted to stop supporting S3. But instead, they demanded manufacturers remove the option from bioses?! People say Microsoft isn't the same as 20 years ago, that they are not pure evil, but this is proof...
  - akiselev 3y ago
    > People say Microsoft isn't the same as 20 years ago, that they are not pure evil, but this is proof... People haven't been paying attention since their consent decree expired over a decade ago.
jeroenhd 3y ago
Microsoft tried very hard to make desktop chips behave like mobile phones. I can see why, especially with SSDs, there's absolutely no reason why we should shut down a computer but keep our phones on 24/7 with instant wake. The problem is that a lot of laptop manufacturers, driver authors, UEFI firmware vendors, and you name it, don't exactly have power savings as a first priority. On some select devices, s2idle works great and it's just like sleep but faster. On many other devices, there are bugs and issues that just break shit. At this point, I have more faith in a brand new Linux install going to sleep successfully than a Windows install staying the fuck off. It's quite annoying, especially since I know every modern CPU has full support for this and the issues just lie in software elsewhere on the board. If you've got an SSD, the easiest fix is to switch to S4/hibernation/suspend to disk. You can remap the power button/laptop close handler. You may need to enter your drive encryption key again when you resume (which is probably more secure anyway) but your sleep will work reliably and it'll consume no power at all, unlike S3 sleep.
- bordercases 3y ago
  Did Apple adopt an approach like this more successfully?
  - rollcat 3y ago
    Apple has always very tightly controlled what components go on their mobo's, and wrote their OS and application stack with that specific hardware in mind. I've had a 2017 MBP: it goes to sleep, continues to check email etc, and wakes up the next day with an almost full battery. I don't have any M1 Macbooks but I can imagine they could stay awake and have 90% battery left the next day. Macs also continue responding to pings and accepting SSH connections on wired Ethernet while sleeping. I've had less luck with inbound SSH over Tailscale, but I can use any other device on the network as a jumphost.
- jraph 3y ago
  Hibernating when you have 32 G of requires more than that for swap. That's not negligible on a 512 G SSD. And copying 32 G is not instantaneous neither. I bet a fresh boot is faster, defeating a big part of the purpose of suspend for me (part of it is finding my workspace where I left it, sure, but also being able to quickly wake up the laptop). And 64 G laptops are sold now.

by consp 3y ago

tpxl 3y ago

Can I get my S4 back? I've never had issues with it, as opposed to constant S2/3 issues, and the startup is still faster than having to look for a cable because S2/S3 managed to drain all the battery.

aimor 3y ago
What is the current situation with sleep states? I've been seeing lots of conversations the last two years and I just don't have a big level picture of why it's such an issue now. I only use S4 (hibernate) because I can ignore my laptop for weeks at a time, unplugged, and jump right back in to where I left off. Microsoft seems to have changed some things in Windows to hide the hibernate option for some reason I can't figure out.
- secondcoming 3y ago
  Hibernate isn't great if you have lots of RAM. Windows won't allow you put the hiberfil.sys anywhere other than C:\. I was confused as to why my C: SSD appeared full until I figured it was because of hibernation (I have 128GB RAM).
  - jeroenhd 3y ago
    It's a shame hyberfil.sys can't be moved, but as I understand it, the reason behind it is that the kernel only has an extremely rudimentary NTFS driver at the point it resumes so I don't think it'll change soon. That said, with modern SSD prices I think the size it takes up is quite reasonable these days. For a while, when people were running 64GiB SSDs, the situation was a lot worse.
  - justsomehnguy 3y ago
    It's always amuses me when the systems are unbalanced. 'Gaming PC' with a latest i7 but a $200 video card. 'DB Server' with gigantic core count each at 2.0GHz (for less than 30 people of course). Of HDDs as a primary storage. Laptop with 128Gb of RAM yet insufficient storage to hold 128Gb hiberfil.sys.
    - fulafel 3y ago
      People also use hibernation on desktops, servers and VMs (traditionally when normal suspend has problems, but maybe nowadays when s2idle has insomnia problems).
      - justsomehnguy 3y ago
        If you managed to get 128Gb of RAM in your desktop then you can manage to get a 1Tb SSD. Hibernation on a server? Pointless most of the time, because the bulk of the startup time is pre-OS. And hibernating VMs is just retarded.
        fulafel 3y ago
        Depends on the vintage. Up to about 2015 a 128 GB workstation config typically had a <= 512 GB boot SSD and some spinning disk as well. In servers it's actually quite nice in homelab style setups where you might want to preserve your working session states, or just doing it on a nightly schedule without worrying about losing work. For VMs it's of course useful to persist vm state to disk and suspend for lots of reasons (don't keep the RAM reseved, or free up VFIO passhthrough hardware for instance). But people often use hypervisor based snapshot for this. One advantage guest OS supported hibernation has it that your guest is aware of its own power state changes and can run your configured power management event hooks on suspend and wake. In the VFIO reddit it seems to be common for people who do windows vm gaming with gpu passthrough to prefer guest hibernate to hyprevisor side snapshots as well, not sure what are the main advantage there.
        Dylan16807 3y ago
jeroenhd 3y ago
Who took your S4? I can't say what other operating systems do these days, but both Linux and Windows support suspending to disk out of the box.
- cesarb 3y ago
  > but both Linux and Windows support suspending to disk out of the box. At least with Linux, out of the box all you'll have is the message "Lockdown: systemd-logind: hibernation is restricted; see man kernel_lockdown.7" in your logs. (The trick is to either disable Secure Boot, or AFAIK make use of an encrypted swap partition; IIRC, there's a bug which makes it not recognize a swap volume within LVM within LUKS as encrypted swap, so it has to be directly on a disk partition.)
  - mecsred 3y ago
    I've run both a Secure Boot/encrypted boot partition NixOS and plain LVM on LUKS archlinux on my Framework and neither had any issues or bugs with hibernating. Just add a resume hook to mkinitcpio and a kernel parameter to the UUID of the swap vol and it works fine.
    - flipbrad 3y ago
      I'm a longtime Linux user, but even I had to chuckle at this reply - very much living up to our caricature!
      - mecsred 3y ago
        Glad to represent!

fulafel 3y ago

S3 was mature so it had to be innovated away.

b112 3y ago
I literally have no issue if, for example, Microsoft wanted to stop supporting S3. But instead, they demanded manufacturers remove the option from bioses?! People say Microsoft isn't the same as 20 years ago, that they are not pure evil, but this is proof...
- akiselev 3y ago
  > People say Microsoft isn't the same as 20 years ago, that they are not pure evil, but this is proof... People haven't been paying attention since their consent decree expired over a decade ago.

jeroenhd 3y ago

Microsoft tried very hard to make desktop chips behave like mobile phones. I can see why, especially with SSDs, there's absolutely no reason why we should shut down a computer but keep our phones on 24/7 with instant wake. The problem is that a lot of laptop manufacturers, driver authors, UEFI firmware vendors, and you name it, don't exactly have power savings as a first priority. On some select devices, s2idle works great and it's just like sleep but faster. On many other devices, there are bugs and issues that just break shit. At this point, I have more faith in a brand new Linux install going to sleep successfully than a Windows install staying the fuck off. It's quite annoying, especially since I know every modern CPU has full support for this and the issues just lie in software elsewhere on the board. If you've got an SSD, the easiest fix is to switch to S4/hibernation/suspend to disk. You can remap the power button/laptop close handler. You may need to enter your drive encryption key again when you resume (which is probably more secure anyway) but your sleep will work reliably and it'll consume no power at all, unlike S3 sleep.

bordercases 3y ago
Did Apple adopt an approach like this more successfully?
- rollcat 3y ago
  Apple has always very tightly controlled what components go on their mobo's, and wrote their OS and application stack with that specific hardware in mind. I've had a 2017 MBP: it goes to sleep, continues to check email etc, and wakes up the next day with an almost full battery. I don't have any M1 Macbooks but I can imagine they could stay awake and have 90% battery left the next day. Macs also continue responding to pings and accepting SSH connections on wired Ethernet while sleeping. I've had less luck with inbound SSH over Tailscale, but I can use any other device on the network as a jumphost.
jraph 3y ago
Hibernating when you have 32 G of requires more than that for swap. That's not negligible on a 512 G SSD. And copying 32 G is not instantaneous neither. I bet a fresh boot is faster, defeating a big part of the purpose of suspend for me (part of it is finding my workspace where I left it, sure, but also being able to quickly wake up the laptop). And 64 G laptops are sold now.