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Bakhmut Is Gone: An Aerial Look at the War’s Destruction
- samstave 3y ago[flagged]
- photoGrant 3y agoI'll agree til the end of times regarding the asinine craziness of putting facts and journalism behind a financial barrier. That the most in need of correct information don't have the means to stay informed. It's the worst of all angles. It's like junk food, the cheap and the easy wins to the detriment of all.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- throwaway20222 3y agoWhat’s the solution you propose?
- samstave 3y agoHN is free, and its all LINKS -- then dont link to content which is non-free. Simple. HN is a _GLOBAL_ audience. Do you honestly think that people outside the US are interested in paying the NYT for a few articles that may get posted to HN? Dont link to paywalls, period. If people ARE PAYING FOR IT then they already have access to said content? Why is this even a discussion.
- wombat-man 3y agolol, what are you talking about? You think that news sites should all be free? If you think they do a good job, then I think it's worth the subscription. If you just dislike NYT in general then why are you complaining you can't read it?
- samstave 3y agoNo, I am saying do not link to paid sites on a free forum. If HN is free, and its all LINKS -- then dont link to content which is non-free. Simple. EDIT: Jeasus Christ. HN is a _GLOBAL_ audience. Do you honestly think that people outside the US are interested in paying the NYT for a few articles that may get posted to HN? Dont link to paywalls, period. If people ARE PAYING FOR IT then they already have access to said content? Why is this even a discussion.
- cpursley 3y agoAwesome. I've got a backlog of programming tasks that I'd love to have completed for free. What's your github repo and email? You can get started right away.
- cpursley 3y ago[flagged]
- maerF0x0 3y agohttps://archive.is/zLShs https://archive.is/zLShs
- justrealist 3y agoIt's incredible to me how anyone — including Russians — can look at this and decide that Russia is on the right side of anything. Just flatly, what is wrong with you? This was a real functioning city of 75,000 people. They did nothing except exist. Now it is ruins. What are you bringing to the world? What are you accomplishing? Do you think this city is liberated? Even if you buy into the full Russian story of Ukraine "shelling Donbas for 8 years", do you see anything in Donetsk that could possibly compare to this? You've destroyed more in a year of war than Ukraine would have shelled in three centuries of skirmishing with the Donbas.
- maerF0x0 3y ago> Russia is on the right side of anything By that argument essentially no war, ever, is on the right side of anything. Perhaps that's your position, but I'm sure some folks would differ and believe sometimes war is justified. If war is sometimes justified, then the argument comes down to goals and values. Russians, apparently, value "unification" and strategic buffer zones more than the world believed, and it might even be the West's fault this is such a protracted war. for example see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKpU1fEiTjQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKpU1fEiTjQ (nb: "today" is Dec 2022 in this)
- maerF0x0 3y agoBtw: Reminder that HN voting system is not reddit's agree style upvote. It's instead to function on the quality of argument and evidences presented. Would love to hear a rebuttal to both the Professor's and Editorial content that demonstrates that Russia isn't the only one who should be demonized here.
- the_only_law 3y ago> Reminder that HN voting system is not reddit's agree style upvote. Where the fuck do you people get this from? PG has explicitly states downvote to disagree is just fine here. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117118#117171 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117118#117171
- jbirer 3y ago[flagged]
- 0zemp2c 3y agoZelensky now seems to be talking down Bakhmut, describing it as a pile of rubble not worth dying for...so why did so many Ukrainians die in the last few months trying to retake it? people continue to not understand the way Russia wages war - since the time of Napoleon, Russia has embraced scorched earth and brutal attrition
- ppeetteerr 3y agoIt may have been a way to grind down Russian forces. The next few weeks will tell if this was also a trap for the Russians as the Ukrainians look to surround the city.
- 0zemp2c 3y agoits too late for Ukraine to try to encircle, they would have to push through Russian defensive positions on both flanks this is why Zelensky is talking down the value of the city, he knows too
- hef19898 3y agoYou seem to be very knowledgable on the Ulrainian plans and overall situation. Either that, in which case shuttimg up would propably be prudent, or it is just forward applied 20/20 hindsight based on incomplete information and a lacl of understanding.
- andyp-kw 3y agoI don't think it was a pile of rubble when they started defending it. The city previously held strategic value.
- dragonwriter 3y ago> Zelensky now seems to be talking down Bakhmut, describing it as a pile of rubble not worth dying for…so why did so many Ukrainians die in the last few months trying to retake it? They didn’t die trying to retake it (since it hadn’t fallen to need retaking, until arguably very recently, though even that is disputed), they died trying to pin the Russian Army/Wagner down and kill them (and did kill vast numbers of them) to prevent advances elsewhere. Just as the Ukrainian effort now to encircle the Russian forces that are still fighting the Ukrainian forces in and around the citiy is not because control of the rubble matters, but because cutting off and removing from combat the Russian forces in the rubble matters quite a bit.
- Hypergraphe 3y agoThis made me sad.
- maerF0x0 3y ago+1 It made me think how post war Ukraine is going to be a potential target/victim of Chinese imperialism / evergrande style construction projects
- Hypergraphe 3y agoI don't think that far in the future... We don't even know what will remain of Ukraine. This war does not make any sense.
- cpursley 3y agoThey were already a demographic black hole (well below replacement birthrates). An entire generation of Ukrainian men are wounded or dead. Millions have left the country and are never coming back after finding new jobs, partners, etc. Their future is dire if they "win"; the whole situation is just cynical and sad.
- thc-27182 3y agoYeah it is sad. It is unfortunate the war was dropped on them. At least they've put up one hell of a good fight for their country and freedom. Inspiration for the world; I think they're rebuild pretty strong.
- runsWphotons 3y agoIf Ukraine draws a truce, it will be western banks and firms doing the reconstruction. Though I suppose these companies may be partly chinese, if thats what you mean?
- dragonwriter 3y ago> If Ukraine draws a truce, it will be western banks and firms doing the reconstruction Lend-Lease terms make it near certain they will largely, specifically, be American, since the debt from that can be paid either directly or by hiring US firms for reconstruction, and the latter obviously gets more back for Ukraine.
- fauxpause_ 3y agoI suspect it will be within full Ukrainian control within less than a year. It’s not a strategic priority. And it is costly to try and take inch by inch. So Ukraine is not going to be in any rush to take it back. But I also expect the priorities for Russian troops will be stretched extremely thin. Wagner appears eager to leave and blame the Russian MoD for failing to hold it. The news today of Russian freedom fighters “liberating” a Russian settlement around Belgorod is the most interesting thing to happen in a while. Keep an eye on that one.
- api 3y agoI've read that the whole strategy was to use it to bleed Russia.
- hef19898 3y agoKind of the same idea the USSR applied during the defence of Stalingrad.
- lisasays 3y agoIronically enough.
- Someone 3y agoI think that was different. Both Hitler and Stalin were emotionally obsessed with the idea of controlling Stalingrad at all cost and didn’t think rationally about it. The argument here is that Russia is in the same boat, but Ukraine is acting rational and think this is the place where they have the best odds at winning the war. The ratio of “their losses” versus “our losses” is better for them than they can get elsewhere, and at the rate of progress Russia made, they won’t run out of land soon. Of course, whether they’re right isn’t 100% certain. From what I read, Russia is losing relatively more inexperienced soldiers than Ukraine, and those are relatively easy to replace.
- fauxpause_ 3y agoYep. They’ve been very transparent about it.
- TekMol 3y agoI'm surprised no one here is arguing in favor of Russia's actions in Ukraine. Russia has 140 million people. How many of them are in favor of their government? Shouldn't some of them find their way to Hacker News?
- TheLoafOfBread 3y agoIt would be like arguing in favor of Germany's actions ... in 1943
- EA-3167 3y agoWhy bother? Surely the community + mods here would crack down on that, and this isn't a site where you can just throw out a load of nonsense and expect that no one will analyze it to find flaws. Add that to the low user count (a few million a month compared to hundreds of millions or more for things like TikTok, Reddit, Twitter and FB) and limited resources are clearly better spent elsewhere. Plus ideologically the people who support Russia most vocally online are Western tankies, and I don't think those guys would do well here.
- happytoexplain 3y agoI keep Show Dead on, and I often see one or two pro-Russia posts whenever the topic comes up. However, pro-Russia sentiment on this war is corollary to a trollish sarcastic attitude, so they get flagged.
- pjc50 3y agoThey are, and obviously they're getting downvoted to oblivion.
- lisasays 3y agoFrom their language they seem not to be Russian natives, but rather Westerners who have bought into the Russian (government's) narrative. Pure mindfuck all the way down, in any case.
- 4bpp 3y agoAre you, or anyone you know, arguing against its actions in any forum that is Russian-operated and overwhelmingly pro-Russian in this war? Few people have a taste for deliberately exposing themselves to overwhelming social disapproval and hostility, and HN is not even primarily a political forum. As a hypothetical pro-Russian user, why would you choose getting yourself dogpiled and possibly risking a ban which would prevent you from using HN to discuss technology, rather than just steering clear of the topic?
- photochemsyn 3y agoThe NYT at least provides a historical record, though their day-to-day reporting involves a lot of historical amnesia. Take a look at this from 2002: > "President Bush heads to Moscow this week for his first summit meeting there, one that his advisers call a historic start to Russia's integration with the West... By breeding and experience, Mr. Putin may be the most Westernized leader in Russian history... The American view, as espoused this month by one senior Bush administration diplomat, is that the summit meeting 'really puts the Russian-U.S. relationship on a firm course of long-term partnership, even a long-term alliance.'" https://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/20/world/in-czar-peter-s-capital-putin-is-not-as-great.html https://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/20/world/in-czar-peter-s-cap... It's curious how little interest the media has in examining why this one-promising 'alliance' failed to materialize, and instead broke apart, with arms control treaties torn up by both sides and escalating belligerence as bad as the worst episodes of the Cold War, such that an outbreak of nuclear war is now an ever-present risk. Any cursory news search will reveal that both Russian and American nuclear forces have moved to what looks like a hair-trigger status, as evidenced by various large-scale nuclear drills, public statements, etc. Some plausible issues are economic conflicts over who gets to sell fossil fuels to European markets (and where that oil money ends up), the general desire of military-industrial interests in both countries to keep military spending intact, and the general political opportunism involved in nationalistic chest-beating and demonizing of the enemy, etc.
- schizo89 3y agoit's all forked
- golergka 3y agoLooks exactly like Grozny in 1995. As a child, I was told stories about Chechen atrocities that let to first Chechen war. I was led to believe that Chechens are wild, uncivilised, dangerous people who wanted to kill Russians in neighbouring regions. I was 7 years old, so I didn't question it. After Russia's invasion in Ukraine and completely crazy propaganda which painted LGBT-friendly country with a Jewish president as literal Nazis I don't have any other choice but to confirm that Russia has been doing literal genocides in regions that wanted independence since 1995.
- ghostwriter 3y agoLet's see, in 1994 Ukraine supports military uprisal in Chechnya and aids separatists and their terrorist field commanders arriving from Saudi Arabia and Middle East [1] in a war against Russia on the territory of Russia. Namely, UNA-UNSO (a nationalist “patriotic” [2] organization in Ukraine [3]) leaders Anatoli Lupinos and Dimitro Korchinski led Ukrainian delegations to Grozny to meet with Chechen leaders. Fast forward in 1995, the UNSO fighters organized as the “Viking Brigade” under the command of Oleksandr Muzychko (a man who vowed to fight "communists, Jews and Russians for as long as blood flows in his veins" [4]), are illegally crossing the Russian border in Chechnya and join Mujahideen terrorists in their fight against Russian regulary army. Twenty years after, when the chickens of the foreign policy had come home to roost in Donbass of 2014, someone nicknamed "golergka" thinks that everything that contradicts his worldview must be a "completely crazy propaganda". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahideen_in_Chechnya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahideen_in_Chechnya [2] https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=una+unso&form=HDRSC3&first=1 https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=una+unso&form=HDRSC3&fi... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_National_Assembly_%E2%80%93_Ukrainian_People%27s_Self-Defence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_National_Assembly_%E... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleksandr_Muzychko https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleksandr_Muzychko
- vladgur 3y agoUkraine SUPPORTS military appraisal in Chechny in 1994? Do you want to actually read the Wikipedia article about UNA that you linked to? UNA barely got 0.5% during 1994 elections and that was their best year. In other words what youre saying is that actions leaders of some nationalistic organization that does not represent 99.985% of Ukrainians is representative of Ukraine? That is absurd!
- dirtyid 3y agoAny aerial time lapse out there?
- eMSF 3y agoThis thread stinks of cabbage to high heaven. Can you actually fool even yourselves anymore? Russians have lost the war a long time ago, it's barely a nasty procession that's left.