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That's just getting ridiculous. Sure, there are edge cases where this makes sense, but the average daily commute is well under 100km. A 500km battery is quite

by crote 3y ago

That's just getting ridiculous. Sure, there are edge cases where this makes sense, but the average daily commute is well under 100km. A 500km battery is quite useful for family trips once a month, but beyond that you are getting into silly territory. For a "mainstream model", a 1000km range is just wasteful. Using their numbers, you are carrying an extra 75kg with you all the time for each extra 100km in range - or 375kg for those extra 500km of range. It's like hauling a trailer 24/7, just because you might need it one day.

rippercushions 3y ago
This hasn't stopped America from adopting massive SUVs wholesale, even though they're only used to haul kids to soccer practice.
yurishimo 3y ago
The market here is Americans with massive vehicles or towing needs. You can provide many of these people all of the data that says they don't need that much range, but unless they can tow their boat 300 miles "on one tank of gas" then getting them to switch to an EV is impossible. I'd imagine as more people buy EV's they will understand personally why they don't need 1,000km of range and then more of these batteries will go to use in large over the road trucks or planes.
tyingq 3y ago
Perhaps it's handy for apartment dwellers who aren't able to get charged up daily?
- pornel 3y ago
  Existing BEVs already need to be charged only once a week. e.g. US median commute is 35 miles, and you can get 350-mile EVs. EVs are most efficient at low speeds, so in city driving they can reach their advertised range.
  - tyingq 3y ago
    Ok, some apartment dwellers. There's several popular metro areas where a long commute is pretty common.
pulse7 3y ago
How much unneeded steal does your car carry around all the time? I don't have the feeling that cars in the US are minimalistic...
- tehwebguy 3y ago
  I mean, for most people, none?
rgmerk 3y ago
Real world highway range is lower than EPA or WLTP range (the range quoted in advertisements in the US or EU respectively), often substantially so. EPA range is for a mix of highway and urban driving; unlike ICE vehicles, EVs get worse range on the highway, and typically highway driving is where you actually care about range on an EV. Weather can also reduce EV range by quite a lot, particularly cold weather and headwinds. But as others have pointed out, the elephant in the room is towing. Towing can more than double energy consumption. The F-150 Lightning will happily tow a 3-ton trailer, but if you tow that trailer at 70mph the Lightning will barely go 100 miles before needing a recharge. So for a tow vehicle, an EPA range of 1000km would be extremely useful.
- crote 3y ago
  Oh absolutely, but extremely few people regularly tow a trailer - if at all. There are certainly use cases for cars with a 1000-km range, but the average consumer isn't going to need it.
eptcyka 3y ago
When I bought my car, I bought it with the sole purpose of doing cross-country travel. I wouldn't need a brand new car with a warranty if that wasn't my intention. I've regularly done 1200+km days of travel with it. I wouldn't be able to comfortably achieve similar numbers with low capacity electric cars today. A car is rarely if ever the optimal solution for a daily commute. Let people have long-range vehicles.
- dublinben 3y ago
  You and the eleven other people who use your vehicles this way would be well suited with one of the handful of EVs with a range extender.
  - eptcyka 3y ago
    Handful? The i3 Rex? The Chevy "Discontinued" Bolt? There are none.
    - saltcured 3y ago
      Isn't every plug-in hybrid an EV with a built-in range extender? I guess you don't like their performance specs, but there seems to be a sweet spot in the solution space that all the manufacturers are focused on. I wonder, is this due to technical limits and/or regulatory challenges, or mostly just consumer preference?
  - all2 3y ago
    What charging stations will get me from Wisconsin to Washington state in a timely manner? I make the run in 40 hours over three days, typically. In terms of time cost, I'd spend up to a full day charging (not including overnight charging, which means finding hotels with charging stations). In terms of short term cost, I'd save close to a 1000USD in fuel, which would be lovely. In terms of long term cost, as soon as I have an EV I'm signing up for a 40000USD bill to replace the battery packs in the future. No ICE car has that pending charge. My current car, almost 20 years old, needs at most 2000USD of work to get it into 'pristine' condition. The issue with EVs is the sheer amount of infrastructure required to make them work, and all of that boils down to energy density. When batteries hit the same energy density as fossil fuels with the same environmental impact we'll be on to something. As it stands, the environmental burden and personal costs of EVs far outweigh the benefits.
troyvit 3y ago
I'm a little out of the loop as far as electric cars go so I'm using Teslas as a comparison. If you don't have any special equipment in your house and need to charge your Tesla you get 2-3 miles of charge for every hour you charge it. In effect you're talking an overnight charge to get anywhere meaningful.[1] If charging times were comparable to filling a tank with gas then yeah I can see how 1000km would be wasteful, but if for instance you wanted to take your electric car camping anywhere interesting, or even make real progress on a road trip, this range starts to make sense. [1] https://www.tesla.com/support/charging https://www.tesla.com/support/charging
- mavhc 3y ago
  You've not heard of rapid charging? Or even Level 2 charging? For $300 you can charge at 7kW at home, so that's 28 miles per hour. At rapid chargers you can charge at 300kW and easily get 1000 miles per hour
  - troyvit 3y ago
    Right, read my post again. I used numbers for regular charging. I did that for 2 reasons. First even though it's only $300 to upgrade to level 2, in many people's cases you'd have to get a second line into your house. That's expensive. Second, I'm not confident that level 2 charging is easily available in the wider world which means you need to plan for a shorter round trip or, again, plug in over-night.
    - mavhc 3y ago
      Who's using regular charging though? Everyone gets a 240V connection, usually about 30 amps, and charges at 7kW at home, adding 224 miles in 8 hours. If you want to go more than the 200-300 miles your car goes, you stop for 15-30 mins to rest while you rapid charge. To quote the page you linked to: The Tesla Supercharger is the fastest charging option when you're away from home, allowing you to charge your car up to 200 miles in 15 minutes. and A Tesla Wall Connector offers the fastest charging speed for your home or office, adding up to 44 miles of range per hour charged
andrei_says_ 3y ago
The case where this makes sense for me is to not have to own a second car for longer trips.
imtringued 3y ago
On the other hand, these cars will last forever. Even if they lose 80% of their capacity they would still be useful.
- pornel 3y ago
  The weight doesn't decrease, so at some point it'd make sense to replace the battery just to avoid hauling dead weight. However, such batteries can still be reused for stationary grid storage.

by crote 3y ago

rippercushions 3y ago

This hasn't stopped America from adopting massive SUVs wholesale, even though they're only used to haul kids to soccer practice.

yurishimo 3y ago

The market here is Americans with massive vehicles or towing needs. You can provide many of these people all of the data that says they don't need that much range, but unless they can tow their boat 300 miles "on one tank of gas" then getting them to switch to an EV is impossible. I'd imagine as more people buy EV's they will understand personally why they don't need 1,000km of range and then more of these batteries will go to use in large over the road trucks or planes.

tyingq 3y ago

Perhaps it's handy for apartment dwellers who aren't able to get charged up daily?

pornel 3y ago
Existing BEVs already need to be charged only once a week. e.g. US median commute is 35 miles, and you can get 350-mile EVs. EVs are most efficient at low speeds, so in city driving they can reach their advertised range.
- tyingq 3y ago
  Ok, some apartment dwellers. There's several popular metro areas where a long commute is pretty common.

pulse7 3y ago

How much unneeded steal does your car carry around all the time? I don't have the feeling that cars in the US are minimalistic...

tehwebguy 3y ago
I mean, for most people, none?

rgmerk 3y ago

Real world highway range is lower than EPA or WLTP range (the range quoted in advertisements in the US or EU respectively), often substantially so. EPA range is for a mix of highway and urban driving; unlike ICE vehicles, EVs get worse range on the highway, and typically highway driving is where you actually care about range on an EV. Weather can also reduce EV range by quite a lot, particularly cold weather and headwinds. But as others have pointed out, the elephant in the room is towing. Towing can more than double energy consumption. The F-150 Lightning will happily tow a 3-ton trailer, but if you tow that trailer at 70mph the Lightning will barely go 100 miles before needing a recharge. So for a tow vehicle, an EPA range of 1000km would be extremely useful.

crote 3y ago
Oh absolutely, but extremely few people regularly tow a trailer - if at all. There are certainly use cases for cars with a 1000-km range, but the average consumer isn't going to need it.

eptcyka 3y ago

When I bought my car, I bought it with the sole purpose of doing cross-country travel. I wouldn't need a brand new car with a warranty if that wasn't my intention. I've regularly done 1200+km days of travel with it. I wouldn't be able to comfortably achieve similar numbers with low capacity electric cars today. A car is rarely if ever the optimal solution for a daily commute. Let people have long-range vehicles.

dublinben 3y ago
You and the eleven other people who use your vehicles this way would be well suited with one of the handful of EVs with a range extender.
- eptcyka 3y ago
  Handful? The i3 Rex? The Chevy "Discontinued" Bolt? There are none.
  - saltcured 3y ago
    Isn't every plug-in hybrid an EV with a built-in range extender? I guess you don't like their performance specs, but there seems to be a sweet spot in the solution space that all the manufacturers are focused on. I wonder, is this due to technical limits and/or regulatory challenges, or mostly just consumer preference?
- all2 3y ago
  What charging stations will get me from Wisconsin to Washington state in a timely manner? I make the run in 40 hours over three days, typically. In terms of time cost, I'd spend up to a full day charging (not including overnight charging, which means finding hotels with charging stations). In terms of short term cost, I'd save close to a 1000USD in fuel, which would be lovely. In terms of long term cost, as soon as I have an EV I'm signing up for a 40000USD bill to replace the battery packs in the future. No ICE car has that pending charge. My current car, almost 20 years old, needs at most 2000USD of work to get it into 'pristine' condition. The issue with EVs is the sheer amount of infrastructure required to make them work, and all of that boils down to energy density. When batteries hit the same energy density as fossil fuels with the same environmental impact we'll be on to something. As it stands, the environmental burden and personal costs of EVs far outweigh the benefits.

troyvit 3y ago

I'm a little out of the loop as far as electric cars go so I'm using Teslas as a comparison. If you don't have any special equipment in your house and need to charge your Tesla you get 2-3 miles of charge for every hour you charge it. In effect you're talking an overnight charge to get anywhere meaningful.[1] If charging times were comparable to filling a tank with gas then yeah I can see how 1000km would be wasteful, but if for instance you wanted to take your electric car camping anywhere interesting, or even make real progress on a road trip, this range starts to make sense. [1] https://www.tesla.com/support/charging https://www.tesla.com/support/charging

mavhc 3y ago
You've not heard of rapid charging? Or even Level 2 charging? For $300 you can charge at 7kW at home, so that's 28 miles per hour. At rapid chargers you can charge at 300kW and easily get 1000 miles per hour
- troyvit 3y ago
  Right, read my post again. I used numbers for regular charging. I did that for 2 reasons. First even though it's only $300 to upgrade to level 2, in many people's cases you'd have to get a second line into your house. That's expensive. Second, I'm not confident that level 2 charging is easily available in the wider world which means you need to plan for a shorter round trip or, again, plug in over-night.
  - mavhc 3y ago
    Who's using regular charging though? Everyone gets a 240V connection, usually about 30 amps, and charges at 7kW at home, adding 224 miles in 8 hours. If you want to go more than the 200-300 miles your car goes, you stop for 15-30 mins to rest while you rapid charge. To quote the page you linked to: The Tesla Supercharger is the fastest charging option when you're away from home, allowing you to charge your car up to 200 miles in 15 minutes. and A Tesla Wall Connector offers the fastest charging speed for your home or office, adding up to 44 miles of range per hour charged

andrei_says_ 3y ago

The case where this makes sense for me is to not have to own a second car for longer trips.

imtringued 3y ago

On the other hand, these cars will last forever. Even if they lose 80% of their capacity they would still be useful.

pornel 3y ago
The weight doesn't decrease, so at some point it'd make sense to replace the battery just to avoid hauling dead weight. However, such batteries can still be reused for stationary grid storage.