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Can't believe people in this thread condoning this practice and sticking up for HP! OP is in possesion of the physical product that his subscription PAID FOR.

Can't believe people in this thread condoning this practice and sticking up for HP! OP is in possesion of the physical product that his subscription PAID FOR. They can say the sub is for "pages printed", but that's complete nonsense and everyone knows it. It's the INK OP is paying for. They have paid for that ink. They own that ink. They should be able to use it. Attaching a subscription to a physical product, and then disabling the use of that physical product, is complete nonsense. The phone contract analogy is a poor one. You are paying off the cost of the phone with the contract. They don't send you a new phone each month, and then stop you using it because you didn't use all your minutes. Normalisation of stuff like this is alarming. Consumers are done for really, I despair as to where it is all going. Especially when you have a usually informed HN audience sticking up for it.

Wowfunhappy 3y ago
> They can say the sub is for "pages printed", but that's complete nonsense and everyone knows it. I actually don't think that's nonsense, because HP is charging per page, not per ink cartridge. You don't get a new ink cartridge every month, you get the ability to print more pages, and only new cartridges as required to print those pages. Put another way, OP's subscription only paid for a fraction of their ink cartridge, not the whole cartridge. HP could make OP mail back their half-empty cartridge, but that likely would raise the overall cost of the service due to shipping logistics. I agree the whole concept of this service feels scummy and I would never recommend it to anyone, I just don't find this particular aspect so unfair.
- lastangryman 3y ago
  I see what you are saying, but susbscription according to OP was for "HP Instant Ink". I also assume the cost of the subscription was pretty much to cover the cost of the Ink. In my eyes, OP has already paid for the ink. If they want to make it fair, then they could define a charge per page and then bill you for actual pages printed at the end of each month. The fact that ink must be bundled in cartridges that print many pages is HPs problem, not consumers, and they can't work around that with a non-sensical subscription model.
  - Wowfunhappy 3y ago
    > If they want to make it fair, then they could define a charge per page and then bill you for actual pages printed at the end of each month. But that's literally how it works! A certain number of pages are included in the monthly cost, and you're billed for additional pages over the limit. The problem is that OP cancelled their subscription shortly after receiving a new cartridge. So now the options are: • Make OP return the cartridge. • Charge OP for the remainder of their cartridge as a cancellation fee. (Yuck!) • Prevent OP from using the cartridge. --- > The fact that ink must be bundled in cartridges that print many pages is HPs problem, not consumers, and they can't work around that with a non-sensical subscription model. But at the same time: consumers are choosing to buy this subscription. HP provides an option to buy cartridges outright, without limits, and consumers are choosing the subscription instead. I don't know why consumers are doing that. I would never do it, and I would strongly advise others against it. But many people appear to appreciate the service. Now, maybe those people are being tricked into the subscription via dark patterns, which would be a problem, but a different one.
    - brk 3y ago
      >The problem is that IMO, the Problem is that HP markets this as an ink subscription, when it is really a printed page subscription. It's hard to blame someone for thinking that an "ink subscription" would prevent them from fully utilizing ink paid for during the subscription. This seems like HP is trying to capitalize on all kinds of other product subscription models popular today (eg: Aamazon Subscribe and Save, pet food deliveries, water delivery, etc.), but purposefully making the marketing as misleading as possible. Don't call it "instant ink", call it a Print Subscription and you'd probably eliminate most of the problems (and sales...).
      - Wowfunhappy 3y ago
        It's called "HP Instant Ink" because you don't have to keep track of ink cartridge levels, HP takes care of that for you and bills per page instead. I honestly thought all the marketing materials I've seen were quite clear about how the service was billed. I don't think changing the name would lead to more or less confusion or sales.
- tialaramex 3y ago
  I actually offered to buy my mother a printer with what I considered a more sensible ink replacement situation but she asked for, received and had been very happy with, a printer with the HP Instant Ink subscription. I was astonished, but she's not an idiot, and she doesn't have any reason to lie to me. She's retired but she does a lot of arts and crafts stuff and seems to print a fair amount most months, and she hates having to drive somewhere to buy ink when you run out, so I guess this is more convenient.
shmatt 3y ago
Its not like im a fan of the plan (i opted out and buy my own ink) but HP is right Its super easy to be on a "heavy" plan, get 10 ink cartridges, then cancel the first month and use that ink for a year. This causes HP to lose profits. They are betting that people don't really print as much as they think they do, most people are overpaying for their plan, and a small amount are actually using it up. Imagine if Netflix would let you KEEP your downloaded content after you stopped paying. Customers would pay for a month, download everything, cancel, then watch stuff throughout the year HP essentially created an optional netflix-style ink cartridge plan. As long as you pay you get unlimited cartridges. The second you stop paying you lose it all. No one is forcing you to opt in, but I know a lot of people who like the style even if they understand they're overpaying
- thesuitonym 3y ago
  The cost of the subscription should (And I'm sure does--more than) cover the cost of the ink you receive. It's not the same as your Netflix analogy at all, because there's only a finite amount of ink you'll receive, and HP knows exactly how much it is, and sets the price of the subscription accordingly.
  - shmatt 3y ago
    well there is still a difference. Under the 100 page plan, you can print 100 completely black pages using the max amount of ink for the plan or you could print 10 pages with a single sentence in them HP sends you new cartridges depending on your use. So the second person in my example would not get a new cartridge, while the first would get 3 in the mail the next day. Both are paying the same monthly payment. Its a dumb idea, but some people opt-in to it. And from my personal experience people end up with lots of extras being shipped to them. They can have 5-6 full cartridges at home at a time, for future use. HP doesn't want you to get stuck without ink, so they overstock you. Cancelling can cause people to take advantage of that overstock
    - toast0 3y ago
      > HP doesn't want you to get stuck without ink, so they overstock you. Presumably they also don't want to spend more than necessary on shipping. It's a lot more economical to send 6 cartridges at one time, than to send 6 packages with one cartridge each.
mattmaroon 3y ago
You don’t get to decide what people are paying for. HP and customer who sign the contract do. If the contract says they’re paying for the right to print, not the ink, then that’s what they’re paying for. I wouldn’t use this plan because I don’t print enough to make it worth it, but that doesn’t mean they are evil for offering the option. If it’s hidden in the UI that’s bad. OP sounds a lot more surprised than he should be.
tehwebguy 3y ago
Wonder if it would help if people bought every unit available, disassembled all the packaging (so they have to go back to HP) and returned them. Probably wouldn’t take long to get banned from like every retailer though. I wouldn’t really endorse this but HP stiffed me on $500 when they canceled an order I placed with an HP gift card. It just, disappeared. Their customer support never even understood the problem, they just sent different and wrong form replies to everything. It had been too long to charge it back but at this point they’ve earned every bit of hate they’ve ever got in my mind.
drfuchs 3y ago
No, OP paid for a fraction of the ink they received. If you don’t finish paying for your house or car, you don’t get to keep them. HP is simply not asking for OP to return the fraction of the ink he’s deciding not to buy, presumably because it’s not worth the hassle to them. Added: I, for one, am pleased that HP has sent me hundreds of dollars worth of consumables (paper and ink) and lets me then pay for it over time, at a discounted rate and no interest.
Spooky23 3y ago
It’s not “condoning” anything. It’s accepting reality. If you sign up for a cost per print plan, you get some benefits in consideration for your payment. If you drop it, those benefits end. It’s no different than renting a car and expecting to keep driving after it ends. I use HP Instant Ink because my kids want to print color. Otherwise, I have a brother that I purchased like 15 years ago! The cost is cheaper at the volume we print, and you don’t get in a position where your marginal cost goes up by $75 or whatever the cartridge sells for. I think we pay about $60/year. My sister-in-law is a photographer and prints alot. She has the fancy Epson tank printer, which makes sense for her as she prints easily 2,000 prints a year.
- phone8675309 3y ago
  > If you sign up for a cost per print plan, you get some benefits in consideration for your payment. If you drop it, those benefits end. It’s no different than renting a car and expecting to keep driving after it ends. This is more like paying for an aftermarket maintenance plan and then expecting to drive your car (that you bought) after it ends - like no fucking shit you should expect to keep using your car after that maintenance plan expires. When they expire they don't siphon out your gas, oil, windshield washer fluid, engine coolant, brake fluid, and automatic transmission fluid!
  - WmWsjA6B29B4nfk 3y ago
    Nah, it's more like leasing a car, stopping payments and then expecting to continue driving the car (it's been already delivered to you!)
    - phone8675309 3y ago
      No, you're paying as much for this printer up front as you are for other printers, so you're just wrong here.
      - xadhominemx 3y ago
        We’re talking about the ink cartridges, not the printer itself.
jsmith99 3y ago
> They can say the sub is for "pages printed", but that's complete nonsense and everyone knows it. Not really, they have a choice of plans, all based on how many pages you want. The cartridges are pretty big. Most people will get one only every few months or so, as they need them.
dragonwriter 3y ago
> They can say the sub is for "pages printed", but that's complete nonsense and everyone knows it. It's the INK OP is paying for. No, they are paying for pages printed. Which may be a dumb model for consumers (its common for business) but its the model they explicitly signed up for.
Macha 3y ago
> Especially when you have a usually informed HN audience sticking up for it. It's pretty on-brand for the HN audience I feel. For several years HN has felt like the epitome of the temporarily embarassed millionare meme. The site often supports corporations taking what they can for users, and the only reason I can see for people to feel so strongly about it is they either are or imagine themselves in the future to be stakeholders in companies that make their money from exploiting consumers.
- zamnos 3y ago
  It goes deeper than that, it's just easier to call out when it's a corporation as rich and large enough as HP being defended. There's a more base "blame the victim to avoid having to acknowledge something is wrong and having to do anything about it" mindset at work. If the reader blames the victim (for not reading what "HP Instant Ink" service actually is) then the reader doesn't have to do anything. After all, it's the victim's fault for not reading the contract/having infinite knowledge/wearing too short a dress. If there was anything wrong with the attacker's behavior then the reader would have to get outraged and do something, or respond with something deeply cynical, powerless and defeated.
aaron695 3y ago
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Wowfunhappy 3y ago

> They can say the sub is for "pages printed", but that's complete nonsense and everyone knows it. I actually don't think that's nonsense, because HP is charging per page, not per ink cartridge. You don't get a new ink cartridge every month, you get the ability to print more pages, and only new cartridges as required to print those pages. Put another way, OP's subscription only paid for a fraction of their ink cartridge, not the whole cartridge. HP could make OP mail back their half-empty cartridge, but that likely would raise the overall cost of the service due to shipping logistics. I agree the whole concept of this service feels scummy and I would never recommend it to anyone, I just don't find this particular aspect so unfair.

lastangryman 3y ago
I see what you are saying, but susbscription according to OP was for "HP Instant Ink". I also assume the cost of the subscription was pretty much to cover the cost of the Ink. In my eyes, OP has already paid for the ink. If they want to make it fair, then they could define a charge per page and then bill you for actual pages printed at the end of each month. The fact that ink must be bundled in cartridges that print many pages is HPs problem, not consumers, and they can't work around that with a non-sensical subscription model.
- Wowfunhappy 3y ago
  > If they want to make it fair, then they could define a charge per page and then bill you for actual pages printed at the end of each month. But that's literally how it works! A certain number of pages are included in the monthly cost, and you're billed for additional pages over the limit. The problem is that OP cancelled their subscription shortly after receiving a new cartridge. So now the options are: • Make OP return the cartridge. • Charge OP for the remainder of their cartridge as a cancellation fee. (Yuck!) • Prevent OP from using the cartridge. --- > The fact that ink must be bundled in cartridges that print many pages is HPs problem, not consumers, and they can't work around that with a non-sensical subscription model. But at the same time: consumers are choosing to buy this subscription. HP provides an option to buy cartridges outright, without limits, and consumers are choosing the subscription instead. I don't know why consumers are doing that. I would never do it, and I would strongly advise others against it. But many people appear to appreciate the service. Now, maybe those people are being tricked into the subscription via dark patterns, which would be a problem, but a different one.
  - brk 3y ago
    >The problem is that IMO, the Problem is that HP markets this as an ink subscription, when it is really a printed page subscription. It's hard to blame someone for thinking that an "ink subscription" would prevent them from fully utilizing ink paid for during the subscription. This seems like HP is trying to capitalize on all kinds of other product subscription models popular today (eg: Aamazon Subscribe and Save, pet food deliveries, water delivery, etc.), but purposefully making the marketing as misleading as possible. Don't call it "instant ink", call it a Print Subscription and you'd probably eliminate most of the problems (and sales...).
    - Wowfunhappy 3y ago
      It's called "HP Instant Ink" because you don't have to keep track of ink cartridge levels, HP takes care of that for you and bills per page instead. I honestly thought all the marketing materials I've seen were quite clear about how the service was billed. I don't think changing the name would lead to more or less confusion or sales.
tialaramex 3y ago
I actually offered to buy my mother a printer with what I considered a more sensible ink replacement situation but she asked for, received and had been very happy with, a printer with the HP Instant Ink subscription. I was astonished, but she's not an idiot, and she doesn't have any reason to lie to me. She's retired but she does a lot of arts and crafts stuff and seems to print a fair amount most months, and she hates having to drive somewhere to buy ink when you run out, so I guess this is more convenient.

shmatt 3y ago

Its not like im a fan of the plan (i opted out and buy my own ink) but HP is right Its super easy to be on a "heavy" plan, get 10 ink cartridges, then cancel the first month and use that ink for a year. This causes HP to lose profits. They are betting that people don't really print as much as they think they do, most people are overpaying for their plan, and a small amount are actually using it up. Imagine if Netflix would let you KEEP your downloaded content after you stopped paying. Customers would pay for a month, download everything, cancel, then watch stuff throughout the year HP essentially created an optional netflix-style ink cartridge plan. As long as you pay you get unlimited cartridges. The second you stop paying you lose it all. No one is forcing you to opt in, but I know a lot of people who like the style even if they understand they're overpaying

thesuitonym 3y ago
The cost of the subscription should (And I'm sure does--more than) cover the cost of the ink you receive. It's not the same as your Netflix analogy at all, because there's only a finite amount of ink you'll receive, and HP knows exactly how much it is, and sets the price of the subscription accordingly.
- shmatt 3y ago
  well there is still a difference. Under the 100 page plan, you can print 100 completely black pages using the max amount of ink for the plan or you could print 10 pages with a single sentence in them HP sends you new cartridges depending on your use. So the second person in my example would not get a new cartridge, while the first would get 3 in the mail the next day. Both are paying the same monthly payment. Its a dumb idea, but some people opt-in to it. And from my personal experience people end up with lots of extras being shipped to them. They can have 5-6 full cartridges at home at a time, for future use. HP doesn't want you to get stuck without ink, so they overstock you. Cancelling can cause people to take advantage of that overstock
  - toast0 3y ago
    > HP doesn't want you to get stuck without ink, so they overstock you. Presumably they also don't want to spend more than necessary on shipping. It's a lot more economical to send 6 cartridges at one time, than to send 6 packages with one cartridge each.

mattmaroon 3y ago

You don’t get to decide what people are paying for. HP and customer who sign the contract do. If the contract says they’re paying for the right to print, not the ink, then that’s what they’re paying for. I wouldn’t use this plan because I don’t print enough to make it worth it, but that doesn’t mean they are evil for offering the option. If it’s hidden in the UI that’s bad. OP sounds a lot more surprised than he should be.

tehwebguy 3y ago

Wonder if it would help if people bought every unit available, disassembled all the packaging (so they have to go back to HP) and returned them. Probably wouldn’t take long to get banned from like every retailer though. I wouldn’t really endorse this but HP stiffed me on $500 when they canceled an order I placed with an HP gift card. It just, disappeared. Their customer support never even understood the problem, they just sent different and wrong form replies to everything. It had been too long to charge it back but at this point they’ve earned every bit of hate they’ve ever got in my mind.

drfuchs 3y ago

No, OP paid for a fraction of the ink they received. If you don’t finish paying for your house or car, you don’t get to keep them. HP is simply not asking for OP to return the fraction of the ink he’s deciding not to buy, presumably because it’s not worth the hassle to them. Added: I, for one, am pleased that HP has sent me hundreds of dollars worth of consumables (paper and ink) and lets me then pay for it over time, at a discounted rate and no interest.

Spooky23 3y ago

It’s not “condoning” anything. It’s accepting reality. If you sign up for a cost per print plan, you get some benefits in consideration for your payment. If you drop it, those benefits end. It’s no different than renting a car and expecting to keep driving after it ends. I use HP Instant Ink because my kids want to print color. Otherwise, I have a brother that I purchased like 15 years ago! The cost is cheaper at the volume we print, and you don’t get in a position where your marginal cost goes up by $75 or whatever the cartridge sells for. I think we pay about $60/year. My sister-in-law is a photographer and prints alot. She has the fancy Epson tank printer, which makes sense for her as she prints easily 2,000 prints a year.

phone8675309 3y ago
> If you sign up for a cost per print plan, you get some benefits in consideration for your payment. If you drop it, those benefits end. It’s no different than renting a car and expecting to keep driving after it ends. This is more like paying for an aftermarket maintenance plan and then expecting to drive your car (that you bought) after it ends - like no fucking shit you should expect to keep using your car after that maintenance plan expires. When they expire they don't siphon out your gas, oil, windshield washer fluid, engine coolant, brake fluid, and automatic transmission fluid!
- WmWsjA6B29B4nfk 3y ago
  Nah, it's more like leasing a car, stopping payments and then expecting to continue driving the car (it's been already delivered to you!)
  - phone8675309 3y ago
    No, you're paying as much for this printer up front as you are for other printers, so you're just wrong here.
    - xadhominemx 3y ago
      We’re talking about the ink cartridges, not the printer itself.

jsmith99 3y ago

> They can say the sub is for "pages printed", but that's complete nonsense and everyone knows it. Not really, they have a choice of plans, all based on how many pages you want. The cartridges are pretty big. Most people will get one only every few months or so, as they need them.

dragonwriter 3y ago

> They can say the sub is for "pages printed", but that's complete nonsense and everyone knows it. It's the INK OP is paying for. No, they are paying for pages printed. Which may be a dumb model for consumers (its common for business) but its the model they explicitly signed up for.

Macha 3y ago

> Especially when you have a usually informed HN audience sticking up for it. It's pretty on-brand for the HN audience I feel. For several years HN has felt like the epitome of the temporarily embarassed millionare meme. The site often supports corporations taking what they can for users, and the only reason I can see for people to feel so strongly about it is they either are or imagine themselves in the future to be stakeholders in companies that make their money from exploiting consumers.

zamnos 3y ago
It goes deeper than that, it's just easier to call out when it's a corporation as rich and large enough as HP being defended. There's a more base "blame the victim to avoid having to acknowledge something is wrong and having to do anything about it" mindset at work. If the reader blames the victim (for not reading what "HP Instant Ink" service actually is) then the reader doesn't have to do anything. After all, it's the victim's fault for not reading the contract/having infinite knowledge/wearing too short a dress. If there was anything wrong with the attacker's behavior then the reader would have to get outraged and do something, or respond with something deeply cynical, powerless and defeated.

aaron695 3y ago

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