5 ms·

I find it surprising (in a good way) the author could be a programmer for 26 years at Apple. A lot of corporate places I've worked at are always pushing you to

I find it surprising (in a good way) the author could be a programmer for 26 years at Apple. A lot of corporate places I've worked at are always pushing you to progress in to leadership positions; if you aren't moving upwards then you are "managed out" which I always find really sad, the idea that simply being good at your job is now no longer enough. Good on Apple if they don't follow this type of thinking.

brabel 3y ago
An experienced programmer may not be able to write a lot of code faster than an intermediate programmer, but will know to NOT write code or waste time on things they know (from experience) are not required, or desirable... and focus on those things that really matter. This is worth so much for a company. Developers in the middle of their careers are dangerous: they can achieve a lot, but they can easily veer off on a tangent and spend months on some interesting challenge instead of on what the business needs. If every developer moved "up" to management after a few years, only mediocre programmers would be actually writing code (which is partly true). I've become chief engineer recently, but I had already been leading other developers for a while... but I keep writing lots of code, despite frequent interruptions to assist others... I can see how others often go in undesired directions if not guided back to focus on what is important. I am very glad my company has recognized that I can do that but knows me well enough to understand my strong point is coding, not managing. I am sure Apple and many other companies are also aware that a very experienced developer still writing code with others is worth a lot more than in some miserable (for them) management position.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 3y ago
  One of my mantras that I picked up as I moved into a more senior level is “the fastest and easiest to maintain code is the code you don’t have to write at all”. Knowing when and what to write is as much a skill as writing the code in the first place. Also, Apple, presumably being a very siloed organization, probably benefits more from tribal knowledge of the elders more than your typical organization.
  - wing-_-nuts 3y ago
    There's also the pragmatic flip side to this coin. 'Bad' code that does something is infinitely faster than the perfect implementation that was never written.
- Ensorceled 3y ago
  > I can see how others often go in undesired directions if not guided back to focus on what is important. This is the role of the senior engineer in a nutshell: herding the cats, but from the technical side.
- pradn 3y ago
  Execs can waste years by investing in the wrong projects, tech leads can waste quarters of time by picking the wrong architecture/ecosystem, junior engineers can waste days by picking the wrong approach to a ticket. And benefit goes the same way.
oefrha 3y ago
In (one) theory, pressuring everyone to always move up results in everyone eventually stuck in a role they are not good at.
- amelius 3y ago
  Peter principle.
- lastangryman 3y ago
  Yes, "everyone is eventually promoted to their highest level of incompetence" is how I've heard it and there's a definitely some truth in there I think...
logbiscuitswave 3y ago
I’ve also been somewhat scarred by having a previous boss who was on the older side. He only became a manager because of an ego thing where he “didn’t want to report to someone half his age”. He ended up being a terrible manager and basically ended up driving me to leave for another team. I don’t want to become that guy. That experience was very eye opening to me. As a result, despite being offered lead positions several times, I’ve always declined. I know where my talents and interests are, and they most certainly aren’t in “people problems” or managing someone else’s career. Thankfully my employer still has a very robust career track for people like me.
jebarker 3y ago
What does "managed out" mean?
- lastangryman 3y ago
  It is the practice of very subtly persuading employees to seek employment elsewhere when their "growth" has stagnated. https://www.ft.com/content/356ea48c-e6cf-11e6-967b-c88452263daf https://www.ft.com/content/356ea48c-e6cf-11e6-967b-c88452263... You will see it mentioned in context of poorly performing staff, but it can also be used when you have someone who is perfectly capable at their role but has no desire to climb the ladder. In many corporate environments that is viewed very negatively.
  - jebarker 3y ago
    Thanks for explaining. That's awful. I wonder how common this is in tech companies where IC is a valid career path and terminal levels exist?
    - KerrAvon 3y ago
      It is alive and well at FAANG.
    - jimt1234 3y ago
      I was forced to manage someone out years ago. It was awful. My bosses didn't like this one guy, and honestly, he wasn't the best employee, but just they told me to stop giving work to him. Nothing. No work at all. He would come to me and ask what he was supposed to be working on. I had to just say that I'd get him something soon. I had to tell others not to give him any work or go to him for anything. He sat there at his desk for months, doing absolutely nothing. Finally, he asked about his upcoming review, and I had to tell him that he was getting PIP'ed because he hadn't accomplished anything. He finally got the message and resigned. That whole situation made me feel like shit. It still does. I never wanted to be a part of management after that.
      - 3y ago
morning-coffee 3y ago
Programmer at Microsoft (still) for 27 years here. The pressure to "grow your career" (usually by moving into management) was and is ever-present. I've never been managed out, but have had numerous conversations with managers over the years along the lines of "look, I just love to write code and work with other people who love to write code too." I consider success to be defined by me in the feelings I derive from the work I do, the simplicity of the code I write, and the knowledge that its valuable in solving problems that my employer wants to see solved. Yet, the culture seems to still be fixated on measuring success by steady progression of increasing levels or changing titles. Whatever... it's for each of us, corporate ladder climbers included, to define what success means for ourselves and how to go about achieving it, I suppose.

brabel 3y ago

An experienced programmer may not be able to write a lot of code faster than an intermediate programmer, but will know to NOT write code or waste time on things they know (from experience) are not required, or desirable... and focus on those things that really matter. This is worth so much for a company. Developers in the middle of their careers are dangerous: they can achieve a lot, but they can easily veer off on a tangent and spend months on some interesting challenge instead of on what the business needs. If every developer moved "up" to management after a few years, only mediocre programmers would be actually writing code (which is partly true). I've become chief engineer recently, but I had already been leading other developers for a while... but I keep writing lots of code, despite frequent interruptions to assist others... I can see how others often go in undesired directions if not guided back to focus on what is important. I am very glad my company has recognized that I can do that but knows me well enough to understand my strong point is coding, not managing. I am sure Apple and many other companies are also aware that a very experienced developer still writing code with others is worth a lot more than in some miserable (for them) management position.

SOLAR_FIELDS 3y ago
One of my mantras that I picked up as I moved into a more senior level is “the fastest and easiest to maintain code is the code you don’t have to write at all”. Knowing when and what to write is as much a skill as writing the code in the first place. Also, Apple, presumably being a very siloed organization, probably benefits more from tribal knowledge of the elders more than your typical organization.
- wing-_-nuts 3y ago
  There's also the pragmatic flip side to this coin. 'Bad' code that does something is infinitely faster than the perfect implementation that was never written.
Ensorceled 3y ago
> I can see how others often go in undesired directions if not guided back to focus on what is important. This is the role of the senior engineer in a nutshell: herding the cats, but from the technical side.
pradn 3y ago
Execs can waste years by investing in the wrong projects, tech leads can waste quarters of time by picking the wrong architecture/ecosystem, junior engineers can waste days by picking the wrong approach to a ticket. And benefit goes the same way.

oefrha 3y ago

In (one) theory, pressuring everyone to always move up results in everyone eventually stuck in a role they are not good at.

amelius 3y ago
Peter principle.
lastangryman 3y ago
Yes, "everyone is eventually promoted to their highest level of incompetence" is how I've heard it and there's a definitely some truth in there I think...

logbiscuitswave 3y ago

I’ve also been somewhat scarred by having a previous boss who was on the older side. He only became a manager because of an ego thing where he “didn’t want to report to someone half his age”. He ended up being a terrible manager and basically ended up driving me to leave for another team. I don’t want to become that guy. That experience was very eye opening to me. As a result, despite being offered lead positions several times, I’ve always declined. I know where my talents and interests are, and they most certainly aren’t in “people problems” or managing someone else’s career. Thankfully my employer still has a very robust career track for people like me.

jebarker 3y ago

What does "managed out" mean?

lastangryman 3y ago
It is the practice of very subtly persuading employees to seek employment elsewhere when their "growth" has stagnated. https://www.ft.com/content/356ea48c-e6cf-11e6-967b-c88452263daf https://www.ft.com/content/356ea48c-e6cf-11e6-967b-c88452263... You will see it mentioned in context of poorly performing staff, but it can also be used when you have someone who is perfectly capable at their role but has no desire to climb the ladder. In many corporate environments that is viewed very negatively.
- jebarker 3y ago
  Thanks for explaining. That's awful. I wonder how common this is in tech companies where IC is a valid career path and terminal levels exist?
  - KerrAvon 3y ago
    It is alive and well at FAANG.
  - jimt1234 3y ago
    I was forced to manage someone out years ago. It was awful. My bosses didn't like this one guy, and honestly, he wasn't the best employee, but just they told me to stop giving work to him. Nothing. No work at all. He would come to me and ask what he was supposed to be working on. I had to just say that I'd get him something soon. I had to tell others not to give him any work or go to him for anything. He sat there at his desk for months, doing absolutely nothing. Finally, he asked about his upcoming review, and I had to tell him that he was getting PIP'ed because he hadn't accomplished anything. He finally got the message and resigned. That whole situation made me feel like shit. It still does. I never wanted to be a part of management after that.
    - 3y ago

morning-coffee 3y ago

Programmer at Microsoft (still) for 27 years here. The pressure to "grow your career" (usually by moving into management) was and is ever-present. I've never been managed out, but have had numerous conversations with managers over the years along the lines of "look, I just love to write code and work with other people who love to write code too." I consider success to be defined by me in the feelings I derive from the work I do, the simplicity of the code I write, and the knowledge that its valuable in solving problems that my employer wants to see solved. Yet, the culture seems to still be fixated on measuring success by steady progression of increasing levels or changing titles. Whatever... it's for each of us, corporate ladder climbers included, to define what success means for ourselves and how to go about achieving it, I suppose.