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I once had a PM who told me coding was just a stepping stone to them in their career. I couldn’t understand, I thought they must not have been a “natural” like

I once had a PM who told me coding was just a stepping stone to them in their career. I couldn’t understand, I thought they must not have been a “natural” like me. Fast forward a few years, after taking on more mentorship roles, then staff responsibilities, then slipping into project oversight roles… She was so right. Coding was a great stepping stone. Several years ago my father got promoted to some leadership role. In our conversation about it, he told me he had asked to get back closer tech, but his boss declined and said tech specialists are a dime a dozen. Technical leadership is very expensive to find though, and once you find one you don’t let them go back to the production line. I still occasionally answer an SO question or make a few commits on personal pet projects, but lately I’m just as likely to go fishing instead or make edits to OpenStreetMap. Programming really is a special kind of career. I can’t imagine making it the only one I ever tried though.

irrational 3y ago
> Technical leadership is very expensive to find though, and once you find one you don’t let them go back to the production line. I have a friend at our company who is a gifted programmer. He was moved into a management position. He discovered that he hated working in a leadership position. He tried to get them to move him back to an individual contributor position. They refused. He said, move me back or I quit. It took them more than a year to transition him back to an individual contributor role. That was a few years ago and he has been happily plugging along ever since. He says that even after he transitioned back, they kept coming to him to get his opinion on issues, the only way he got them to stop was to completely refuse to respond.
- doppel 3y ago
  I feel it's completely acceptable to wish to stay in an IC position, but to refuse outright to give advise or share the experience (it's hard to tell from your short paragraph) seems... odd? It's acceptable to want to stay in a specific role, but I am not certain I feel it's acceptable to eschew an increasing responsibility or mentoring role as you gain experience. That way lies the "genius programmer that works alone and writes code no one else wunderstands".
  - tm-guimaraes 3y ago
    Saying “no” is the correct answer. It’s the same as not solving chat request bypassing prioritization. The company is full of incentives to ask that guy for guidance/things, if he doesn’t say no most or all of the time, he simply won’t have time for his IC role, and would remain a lead just not in name. It’s hard that it comes to that extreme measure, but if his requests aren’t being heard, it’s either that or leaving. The company has to let him be an IC or explicitly tell him that he can’t stay there as IC, are at least negotiate some timme allocation for those requests and log them
    - bboygravity 3y ago
      Another simple trick if you don't like saying "no": become a freelancer. It will never ever occur to anybody in the company that a freelance software dev could possibly be put into a management role, so they won't ask. As opposed to an employed software dev. Bonus if you're in the EU/UK: in most countries in the EU this will even lead to tax breaks and higher before-tax hourly rates. To the point that you'll make (way) more than your "higher"-up(s).
      - haspok 3y ago
        > It will never ever occur to anybody in the company that a freelance software dev could possibly be put into a management role... If by "freelancer" you mean "contractor", then this statement is false. I had worked at multiple places in the UK where this happened, I suppose mostly because paying these people a salary would have required an disproportionate amount of money (as opposed to a standard daily rate) - UK taxes are very high in the top bracket. If by "freelancer" you mean a real freelancer (the guy who has multiple short gigs at the same time, and needs to be constantly on the lookout for new opportunities) then that is already half of a management position, even if you don't have anyone reporting for you. It is true though that as a contractor one can reasonably easily avoid management duties, and enjoy not having to worry about company politics. The downside is that it is easy to end up in a place where you have to accept that comparably junior people dictate architecture and some tech decisions which you discarded 10 years ago as ineffective, stupid, fad, or all of the above (TDD being a typical example). The upside is that your time at each place is limited anyway, and there is always something to learn...
hdidhxifj 3y ago
or you're probably not that good programmer...?
- bratbag 3y ago
  Or they are better at both then you, but value different things. Who can tell?
pavlov 3y ago
> "Several years ago my father got promoted to some leadership role. In our conversation about it, he told me he had asked to get back closer tech, but his boss declined and said tech specialists are a dime a dozen. Technical leadership is very expensive to find though, and once you find one you don’t let them go back to the production line." Ah, the foundational myth of middle management.
- shapefrog 3y ago
  We are special and unique, that is why we were chosen not them.
  - pavlov 3y ago
    I'm guessing the same story was told 600 years ago in Spain: "My father, an Inquisitor himself, told me of the time when the Grand Inquisitor promoted him. Ordinary priests are a dime a dozen, the great man said, but it takes special skill to be an Inquisitor. And that's why you never let them go back to the pulpit when you do find a good one."
    - tnova 3y ago
      I’m not sure I follow the analogy here, are you implying technical leadership is committing heinous crimes against humanity?
      - Y_Y 3y ago
        Or cleansing Christendom of its heresy? Or showing in the wrong sketch, quite contrary to expectations.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
mhh__ 3y ago
A cost of bad technical leadership is making it look like all talent is the same.
varjag 3y ago
Rule of thumb is the worse an engineer is the sooner they try to make a dash into management or other non-coding role. Doing the job you're not cut for is incredibly stressful and humiliating. It is important though to not compensate for the humiliation with smugness to those who are good at their job.
- Brusco_RF 3y ago
  It happens before entering the workforce too. I can't tell you how many of my classmates left the EE department for the business school riiiight around the time when circuit parameters went from being scalars to vectors
strikelaserclaw 3y ago
wouldn't leadership value leadership? us vs them mentality? There are software eng at my company who are much much more valuable than some of the leadership

irrational 3y ago

> Technical leadership is very expensive to find though, and once you find one you don’t let them go back to the production line. I have a friend at our company who is a gifted programmer. He was moved into a management position. He discovered that he hated working in a leadership position. He tried to get them to move him back to an individual contributor position. They refused. He said, move me back or I quit. It took them more than a year to transition him back to an individual contributor role. That was a few years ago and he has been happily plugging along ever since. He says that even after he transitioned back, they kept coming to him to get his opinion on issues, the only way he got them to stop was to completely refuse to respond.

doppel 3y ago
I feel it's completely acceptable to wish to stay in an IC position, but to refuse outright to give advise or share the experience (it's hard to tell from your short paragraph) seems... odd? It's acceptable to want to stay in a specific role, but I am not certain I feel it's acceptable to eschew an increasing responsibility or mentoring role as you gain experience. That way lies the "genius programmer that works alone and writes code no one else wunderstands".
- tm-guimaraes 3y ago
  Saying “no” is the correct answer. It’s the same as not solving chat request bypassing prioritization. The company is full of incentives to ask that guy for guidance/things, if he doesn’t say no most or all of the time, he simply won’t have time for his IC role, and would remain a lead just not in name. It’s hard that it comes to that extreme measure, but if his requests aren’t being heard, it’s either that or leaving. The company has to let him be an IC or explicitly tell him that he can’t stay there as IC, are at least negotiate some timme allocation for those requests and log them
  - bboygravity 3y ago
    Another simple trick if you don't like saying "no": become a freelancer. It will never ever occur to anybody in the company that a freelance software dev could possibly be put into a management role, so they won't ask. As opposed to an employed software dev. Bonus if you're in the EU/UK: in most countries in the EU this will even lead to tax breaks and higher before-tax hourly rates. To the point that you'll make (way) more than your "higher"-up(s).
    - haspok 3y ago
      > It will never ever occur to anybody in the company that a freelance software dev could possibly be put into a management role... If by "freelancer" you mean "contractor", then this statement is false. I had worked at multiple places in the UK where this happened, I suppose mostly because paying these people a salary would have required an disproportionate amount of money (as opposed to a standard daily rate) - UK taxes are very high in the top bracket. If by "freelancer" you mean a real freelancer (the guy who has multiple short gigs at the same time, and needs to be constantly on the lookout for new opportunities) then that is already half of a management position, even if you don't have anyone reporting for you. It is true though that as a contractor one can reasonably easily avoid management duties, and enjoy not having to worry about company politics. The downside is that it is easy to end up in a place where you have to accept that comparably junior people dictate architecture and some tech decisions which you discarded 10 years ago as ineffective, stupid, fad, or all of the above (TDD being a typical example). The upside is that your time at each place is limited anyway, and there is always something to learn...

hdidhxifj 3y ago

or you're probably not that good programmer...?

bratbag 3y ago
Or they are better at both then you, but value different things. Who can tell?

pavlov 3y ago

> "Several years ago my father got promoted to some leadership role. In our conversation about it, he told me he had asked to get back closer tech, but his boss declined and said tech specialists are a dime a dozen. Technical leadership is very expensive to find though, and once you find one you don’t let them go back to the production line." Ah, the foundational myth of middle management.

shapefrog 3y ago
We are special and unique, that is why we were chosen not them.
- pavlov 3y ago
  I'm guessing the same story was told 600 years ago in Spain: "My father, an Inquisitor himself, told me of the time when the Grand Inquisitor promoted him. Ordinary priests are a dime a dozen, the great man said, but it takes special skill to be an Inquisitor. And that's why you never let them go back to the pulpit when you do find a good one."
  - tnova 3y ago
    I’m not sure I follow the analogy here, are you implying technical leadership is committing heinous crimes against humanity?
    - Y_Y 3y ago
      Or cleansing Christendom of its heresy? Or showing in the wrong sketch, quite contrary to expectations.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]

mhh__ 3y ago

A cost of bad technical leadership is making it look like all talent is the same.

varjag 3y ago

Rule of thumb is the worse an engineer is the sooner they try to make a dash into management or other non-coding role. Doing the job you're not cut for is incredibly stressful and humiliating. It is important though to not compensate for the humiliation with smugness to those who are good at their job.

Brusco_RF 3y ago
It happens before entering the workforce too. I can't tell you how many of my classmates left the EE department for the business school riiiight around the time when circuit parameters went from being scalars to vectors

strikelaserclaw 3y ago

wouldn't leadership value leadership? us vs them mentality? There are software eng at my company who are much much more valuable than some of the leadership