12 ms·

I had a boss who moved a guy from Russia to the US just so he could fire him. He was gone ten days after he arrived and all the paperwork was done. I guess that

I had a boss who moved a guy from Russia to the US just so he could fire him. He was gone ten days after he arrived and all the paperwork was done. I guess that worker protections in Russia were really strong at the time, the guy was untouchable while he was there.

busterarm 3y ago
I hope you got a different boss soon after.
- junon 3y ago
  Yeah exactly. Stop being a bystander to shitty company practices. A lot of them have forgotten that their employees make them profitable and scalable.
  - EatingWithForks 3y ago
    I agree we shouldn't stand for shitty employers. But, especially right now, it can be hard for a dev to find a job. Especially if the dev has dependents taking up time for take home tests etc. Or if they have a visa the employer needs to manage. I suggest we should have something like an actor's guild instead, where a floor of basic protections are necessary but there's no ceiling on payment and benefits.
    - atlasunshrugged 3y ago
      What's the difference between that and a union?
      - snowwrestler 3y ago
        Nothing, it is a union.
      - slg 3y ago
        There isn't any. The Screen Actors Guild is a union that merged with the American Federation of Television and Radio Artists union to make what the grandparent comment is likely referring to as the "actor's guild". They are a traditional labor union and member of the AFL-CIO. They are also seemingly poised to go on strike at the end of next month. Often times when someone criticizes the idea of unions, it is because they don't fully understand their purpose, flexibility, and flaws. For example, that comment could imply that unions somehow cap payments and benefits, but that isn't some universal truth of unions (that person also could just be using guild as a synonym for union, but that isn't necessarily true and it doesn't appear to be how they're using it). Unions negotiate on behalf of their members. If the union members don't want caps on compensation, the union can negotiate for no caps.
        ghaff 3y ago
        And it may be worth noting that "aspiring actor" is probably not considered the epitome of someone on a guaranteed safe and lucrative career path. But it does guarantee that if they can land a job, they're going to get paid scale (~$1k/day I believe).
        busterarm 3y ago
        The film and television unions are a tough nut to crack. On the west coast, that's almost all there is and if you're working you will be in the union easy. Unless you do youtube/streaming content and most of that is non-union. On the east coast, you're going to be working probably for 10 years before you can get into your union and it's an uphill struggle the whole way. And union or not, you're only going to get work if people like working with you. One day with a bad attitude and you can find yourself unable to get hired by anyone. Film and TV is long hours and a stressful environment and nobody wants to work with anyone who makes the day harder.
        Scoundreller 3y ago
        Is it because people get in the union on the west coast and then move east? Or are you just stuck in the local that you started in (and would then definitely be unwilling to relocate once you’re in? (Not sure how the regionalization works if the unions are national)
      - ncallaway 3y ago
        The actor’s guild is a union. There are lots of different unions with lots of different structures. This person is saying we should have a union with a structure similar to that union.
        Animats 3y ago
        Yes. The Animation Guild, IATSE Local 839, is a good model for a programmer's union.[1] TAG represents animators at Disney, Sony, and some lesser studios. (Mostly Disney now, because Disney acquired everybody else.) This is the current Master Agreement.[2] It specifies minimum wages, but not maximums. "Nothing in this Agreement shall prevent any individual from negotiating and obtaining from the Producer better conditions and terms of employment than those herein provided." See section 5, "Hours". "Time worked on the employee's sixth workday of the workweek shall be paid at one and one-half (1½) times the hourly rate provided herein for such employee's classification. Time worked on the employee's seventh workday of the workweek shall be paid at two (2) times the hourly rate provided herein for such employee's classification. Minimum call for the sixth and seventh days shall be four (4) hours. ... All time worked in excess of fourteen (14) consecutive hours (including meal periods) from the time of reporting to work shall be Golden Hours and shall be paid at two (2) times the applicable hourly rate provided herein for such employee's classification." These are standard union terms in Hollywood. This is why film scheduling is a discipline but software development scheduling is a joke. Hollywood has crunches, and they hit the producer's budget hard. So planning goes into avoiding crunches. Despite significant efforts, TAG has been unable to unionize game developers. [1] https://animationguild.org/ https://animationguild.org/ [2] https://animationguild.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/2018-2021-L839-Master-CBA-Book.pdf https://animationguild.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/2018-2...
        shagie 3y ago
        The hours bit gets interesting since that also states that animators are hourly rather than salaried. If you work less than 40 hours in a week, your paycheck is likewise adjusted. You won't be able to work a 9/80 schedule since the payroll week starts at midnight on Sunday morning. Nor would you necessarily be granted permission. If you work 6 hours on one day because you were out for some reason rather than 8 hours, you will not necessarily be able to make it up on other days - or even be granted permission to work overtime (because that would be time and a half pay) to compensate. As programmers we tend to take advantage of the "if all the work gets done we get paid." Get into work at 10 am, leave at 4 pm. Under the hours provision in that agreement I suspect many programmers would chafe a bit. Under these (and similar) provisions people are butt in a seat for 40 hours a week if they want to be fully paid. Taking a sick child to the doctor on a day for 2 hours means you will only be paid 38 hours for that week.
    - jylam 3y ago
      "But, especially right now, it can be hard for a dev to find a job. " What ?
      - brokensegue 3y ago
        are you unaware of major layoffs at major employers?
        Insanity 3y ago
        There are plenty of jobs (and recruiters) still reaching out. Just for smaller companies than the tech giants.
        mortenjorck 3y ago
        As someone laid off from a smaller company, I’ve been competing for those jobs with the people laid off from the tech giants - for almost half a year now.
        the_only_law 3y ago
        Same here. I think this month marks over 6months. What’s stranger is I don’t even see jobs in job boards anymore, at least not ones that don’t look shady. Most of what I see now on say… LinkedIn is spam postings from iffy looking recruiting firms and consultancies.
        Alupis 3y ago
        A lot of previous mega-corp SE's have unrealistic ideas of what normal salaries should be, leading to them being rejected based off salary demand, or rejecting offers themselves. No, you aren't going to be paid $450k a year to work on our website... that is fantasy land. There's so many tech jobs available at all sizes of companies, including mega-corps you've never heard of - they're just not as sexy as your FAANG's & co.
  - joshmarlow 3y ago
    I actually think this is the core cause of a lot of current popular hate of capitalism - shitty managers (I'm thinking the /r/antiwork sort of sentiment). People conflate shitty managers with how the system intrinsically works, which is an over simplification. Now there is an argument that operating in our 'capitalist' system introduces incentives to be a shitty manager (I think this is approximately Chomsky's perspective).
    - concordDance 3y ago
      Note that reddit in general, those whose posts rise in particular and posts that rise to the top of that subreddit even more in particular, is extremely unrepresentative of actually common sentiment. To get an a less biased view you can chat to people on public transport (in Europe) or talk to your neighbours (in the USA).
      - Eisenstein 3y ago
        > Note that reddit in general, those whose posts rise in particular and posts that rise to the top of that subreddit even more in particular, is extremely unrepresentative of actually common sentiment. Why?
        JohnFen 3y ago
        Because the population of Reddit users is not representative of the population in general. This is true for all such places (including HN).
        giantrobot 3y ago
        Reddit has a severe astroturfing problem. Any subreddit that gets any attention (or ends up in /r/all) gets hammered with socket puppets and astroturf campaigns. Groups can very cheaply buy upvotes for pretty much anything. Reddit has shown little appetite for combating this issue because their value is the number of eyeball-seconds they receive every day. They want to report huge eyeball numbers you investors and advertisers.
        3y ago
  - avgcorrection 3y ago
    Yeah. Go up to that corporation and say: Do Better, capitalists, or I’m walkin’ out that door!
    - junon 3y ago
      When your best talent leaves you without any recourse, and onboarding new talent takes 3-6+ months, they will definitely start to care. My last company is imploding due to this exact scenario. They didn't want to listen to their experts and are now reaping those particular rewards.
      - brewdad 3y ago
        I guess the questions remains, will the management that caused your last company to implode take the right lessons with them to their next job?
        junon 3y ago
        Almost certainly not, no.
      - slg 3y ago
        This only protects "your best talent". The company is free to mistreat all the rest of the people who don't have the unique skill set to guarantee themselves better treatment. That is capitalism working as intended.
  - nielsbot 3y ago
    A commenter below mentions unions. This could be the answer. I think tech workers so far have been paid and treated well (at least where I work) and so haven't felt the need to unionize. But having a union would certainly protect against these kinds of problems. (Being relocated and then immediately laid off)
    - busterarm 3y ago
      I was a member of three different unions before I ever switched careers to tech and being able to (and expected to) negotiate my own contracts was one of the biggest factors in me ending up in this industry. I have certainly made orders of magnitude more money and under substantially better conditions. My experiences in unions were awful and I would never go back to that.
      - nielsbot 3y ago
        What industry did you work in before?
  - tinglymintyfrsh 3y ago
    American workers are the wimpiest creatures on the planet. That's why they don't have unions, tolerate horrible bosses, and have few protections.
    - ars 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - mempko 3y ago
        Which SOME employees benefit from. The poverty rate is too high, too many people in jail for such a rich country. What's the point of being rich when only a tiny percentage of the people benefit?
        SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
        Well, a lot of the people you're addressing here are the ones benefiting, so I don't know what sort of answer you're expecting.
        OnlineGladiator 3y ago
        You can expect people to have empathy and be self-aware. It doesn't mean your expectations will be met, but it's a sad world we live in where you dismiss this as unrealistic.
        ars 3y ago
        Everyone in the US is benefiting from this. People in the US are so comfortable they don't seem to have a clue what real hardship actually is.
        JohnFen 3y ago
        Well, at the very least the ones who die from exposure in the winter because they don't have a place to live, the ones who die because they can't afford medical care, and so on have a clue what real hardship is.
- willdough 3y ago
  [dead]
garbagecoder 3y ago
That's a crime in California. Labor Code section 1050[1] [1]:https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=LAB&sectionNum=1050 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio....

busterarm 3y ago

I hope you got a different boss soon after.

junon 3y ago
Yeah exactly. Stop being a bystander to shitty company practices. A lot of them have forgotten that their employees make them profitable and scalable.
- EatingWithForks 3y ago
  I agree we shouldn't stand for shitty employers. But, especially right now, it can be hard for a dev to find a job. Especially if the dev has dependents taking up time for take home tests etc. Or if they have a visa the employer needs to manage. I suggest we should have something like an actor's guild instead, where a floor of basic protections are necessary but there's no ceiling on payment and benefits.
  - atlasunshrugged 3y ago
    What's the difference between that and a union?
    - snowwrestler 3y ago
      Nothing, it is a union.
    - slg 3y ago
      There isn't any. The Screen Actors Guild is a union that merged with the American Federation of Television and Radio Artists union to make what the grandparent comment is likely referring to as the "actor's guild". They are a traditional labor union and member of the AFL-CIO. They are also seemingly poised to go on strike at the end of next month. Often times when someone criticizes the idea of unions, it is because they don't fully understand their purpose, flexibility, and flaws. For example, that comment could imply that unions somehow cap payments and benefits, but that isn't some universal truth of unions (that person also could just be using guild as a synonym for union, but that isn't necessarily true and it doesn't appear to be how they're using it). Unions negotiate on behalf of their members. If the union members don't want caps on compensation, the union can negotiate for no caps.
      - ghaff 3y ago
        And it may be worth noting that "aspiring actor" is probably not considered the epitome of someone on a guaranteed safe and lucrative career path. But it does guarantee that if they can land a job, they're going to get paid scale (~$1k/day I believe).
        busterarm 3y ago
        The film and television unions are a tough nut to crack. On the west coast, that's almost all there is and if you're working you will be in the union easy. Unless you do youtube/streaming content and most of that is non-union. On the east coast, you're going to be working probably for 10 years before you can get into your union and it's an uphill struggle the whole way. And union or not, you're only going to get work if people like working with you. One day with a bad attitude and you can find yourself unable to get hired by anyone. Film and TV is long hours and a stressful environment and nobody wants to work with anyone who makes the day harder.
        Scoundreller 3y ago
        Is it because people get in the union on the west coast and then move east? Or are you just stuck in the local that you started in (and would then definitely be unwilling to relocate once you’re in? (Not sure how the regionalization works if the unions are national)
    - ncallaway 3y ago
      The actor’s guild is a union. There are lots of different unions with lots of different structures. This person is saying we should have a union with a structure similar to that union.
      - Animats 3y ago
        Yes. The Animation Guild, IATSE Local 839, is a good model for a programmer's union.[1] TAG represents animators at Disney, Sony, and some lesser studios. (Mostly Disney now, because Disney acquired everybody else.) This is the current Master Agreement.[2] It specifies minimum wages, but not maximums. "Nothing in this Agreement shall prevent any individual from negotiating and obtaining from the Producer better conditions and terms of employment than those herein provided." See section 5, "Hours". "Time worked on the employee's sixth workday of the workweek shall be paid at one and one-half (1½) times the hourly rate provided herein for such employee's classification. Time worked on the employee's seventh workday of the workweek shall be paid at two (2) times the hourly rate provided herein for such employee's classification. Minimum call for the sixth and seventh days shall be four (4) hours. ... All time worked in excess of fourteen (14) consecutive hours (including meal periods) from the time of reporting to work shall be Golden Hours and shall be paid at two (2) times the applicable hourly rate provided herein for such employee's classification." These are standard union terms in Hollywood. This is why film scheduling is a discipline but software development scheduling is a joke. Hollywood has crunches, and they hit the producer's budget hard. So planning goes into avoiding crunches. Despite significant efforts, TAG has been unable to unionize game developers. [1] https://animationguild.org/ https://animationguild.org/ [2] https://animationguild.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/2018-2021-L839-Master-CBA-Book.pdf https://animationguild.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/2018-2...
        shagie 3y ago
        The hours bit gets interesting since that also states that animators are hourly rather than salaried. If you work less than 40 hours in a week, your paycheck is likewise adjusted. You won't be able to work a 9/80 schedule since the payroll week starts at midnight on Sunday morning. Nor would you necessarily be granted permission. If you work 6 hours on one day because you were out for some reason rather than 8 hours, you will not necessarily be able to make it up on other days - or even be granted permission to work overtime (because that would be time and a half pay) to compensate. As programmers we tend to take advantage of the "if all the work gets done we get paid." Get into work at 10 am, leave at 4 pm. Under the hours provision in that agreement I suspect many programmers would chafe a bit. Under these (and similar) provisions people are butt in a seat for 40 hours a week if they want to be fully paid. Taking a sick child to the doctor on a day for 2 hours means you will only be paid 38 hours for that week.
  - jylam 3y ago
    "But, especially right now, it can be hard for a dev to find a job. " What ?
    - brokensegue 3y ago
      are you unaware of major layoffs at major employers?
      - Insanity 3y ago
        There are plenty of jobs (and recruiters) still reaching out. Just for smaller companies than the tech giants.
        mortenjorck 3y ago
        As someone laid off from a smaller company, I’ve been competing for those jobs with the people laid off from the tech giants - for almost half a year now.
        the_only_law 3y ago
        Same here. I think this month marks over 6months. What’s stranger is I don’t even see jobs in job boards anymore, at least not ones that don’t look shady. Most of what I see now on say… LinkedIn is spam postings from iffy looking recruiting firms and consultancies.
        Alupis 3y ago
        A lot of previous mega-corp SE's have unrealistic ideas of what normal salaries should be, leading to them being rejected based off salary demand, or rejecting offers themselves. No, you aren't going to be paid $450k a year to work on our website... that is fantasy land. There's so many tech jobs available at all sizes of companies, including mega-corps you've never heard of - they're just not as sexy as your FAANG's & co.
- joshmarlow 3y ago
  I actually think this is the core cause of a lot of current popular hate of capitalism - shitty managers (I'm thinking the /r/antiwork sort of sentiment). People conflate shitty managers with how the system intrinsically works, which is an over simplification. Now there is an argument that operating in our 'capitalist' system introduces incentives to be a shitty manager (I think this is approximately Chomsky's perspective).
  - concordDance 3y ago
    Note that reddit in general, those whose posts rise in particular and posts that rise to the top of that subreddit even more in particular, is extremely unrepresentative of actually common sentiment. To get an a less biased view you can chat to people on public transport (in Europe) or talk to your neighbours (in the USA).
    - Eisenstein 3y ago
      > Note that reddit in general, those whose posts rise in particular and posts that rise to the top of that subreddit even more in particular, is extremely unrepresentative of actually common sentiment. Why?
      - JohnFen 3y ago
        Because the population of Reddit users is not representative of the population in general. This is true for all such places (including HN).
      - giantrobot 3y ago
        Reddit has a severe astroturfing problem. Any subreddit that gets any attention (or ends up in /r/all) gets hammered with socket puppets and astroturf campaigns. Groups can very cheaply buy upvotes for pretty much anything. Reddit has shown little appetite for combating this issue because their value is the number of eyeball-seconds they receive every day. They want to report huge eyeball numbers you investors and advertisers.
      - 3y ago
- avgcorrection 3y ago
  Yeah. Go up to that corporation and say: Do Better, capitalists, or I’m walkin’ out that door!
  - junon 3y ago
    When your best talent leaves you without any recourse, and onboarding new talent takes 3-6+ months, they will definitely start to care. My last company is imploding due to this exact scenario. They didn't want to listen to their experts and are now reaping those particular rewards.
    - brewdad 3y ago
      I guess the questions remains, will the management that caused your last company to implode take the right lessons with them to their next job?
      - junon 3y ago
        Almost certainly not, no.
    - slg 3y ago
      This only protects "your best talent". The company is free to mistreat all the rest of the people who don't have the unique skill set to guarantee themselves better treatment. That is capitalism working as intended.
- nielsbot 3y ago
  A commenter below mentions unions. This could be the answer. I think tech workers so far have been paid and treated well (at least where I work) and so haven't felt the need to unionize. But having a union would certainly protect against these kinds of problems. (Being relocated and then immediately laid off)
  - busterarm 3y ago
    I was a member of three different unions before I ever switched careers to tech and being able to (and expected to) negotiate my own contracts was one of the biggest factors in me ending up in this industry. I have certainly made orders of magnitude more money and under substantially better conditions. My experiences in unions were awful and I would never go back to that.
    - nielsbot 3y ago
      What industry did you work in before?
- tinglymintyfrsh 3y ago
  American workers are the wimpiest creatures on the planet. That's why they don't have unions, tolerate horrible bosses, and have few protections.
  - ars 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - mempko 3y ago
      Which SOME employees benefit from. The poverty rate is too high, too many people in jail for such a rich country. What's the point of being rich when only a tiny percentage of the people benefit?
      - SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
        Well, a lot of the people you're addressing here are the ones benefiting, so I don't know what sort of answer you're expecting.
        OnlineGladiator 3y ago
        You can expect people to have empathy and be self-aware. It doesn't mean your expectations will be met, but it's a sad world we live in where you dismiss this as unrealistic.
        ars 3y ago
        Everyone in the US is benefiting from this. People in the US are so comfortable they don't seem to have a clue what real hardship actually is.
        JohnFen 3y ago
        Well, at the very least the ones who die from exposure in the winter because they don't have a place to live, the ones who die because they can't afford medical care, and so on have a clue what real hardship is.
willdough 3y ago
[dead]

garbagecoder 3y ago

That's a crime in California. Labor Code section 1050[1] [1]:https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=LAB&sectionNum=1050 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio....