10 ms·

Widely used chemical *(that was generally phased out in the 70s) linked to Parkinson's. Still important, but you don't need to start searching product labels in

Widely used chemical *(that was generally phased out in the 70s) linked to Parkinson's. Still important, but you don't need to start searching product labels in 2023 for it.

quickthrower2 3y ago
Was it? Read about its use in industry in 90s including a story about someone who got brain damaged by it.
gabaix 3y ago
Some of the most populated zones of the Bay Area are built on top of superfund sites, which have high concentration of TCE underground. https://www.epa.gov/superfund-redevelopment/superfund-sites-reuse-california https://www.epa.gov/superfund-redevelopment/superfund-sites-...
- bilbo0s 3y ago
  Well one problem is that "Some of the most populated zones of" everywhere are superfund sites. Another, I learned long ago in the real estate business, is that superfund sites are just the sites they've taken the trouble to bother "cleaning up". As the article alludes to, it's not the documented TCE sites we need to worry about, it's the undocumented TCE sites that will likely get the average person. This same rule applies to real estate development. One of the dirty secrets of development is that we really have just poisoned a lot of our environment. Now you can work around that in real estate dev because there are creative ways to interpret disclosure regulations. But Mother Nature doesn't care about such tricks. She has a set of, (in this case chemical), rules and if they're broken, she'll happily punish you without a second thought. I'm not sure how we solve the issue of toxins in our environment? It gets complex not only because of the competing interests, but also because research like this will continue to come out, and something we didn't think was a problem, will turn out to have been a problem. So you're in a situation where you know a lot. You even learn more everyday. But you don't know what you don't know.
  - walleeee 3y ago
    I can't help but think we've gone too far in limiting liability Doing so may be an effective way to catalyze invention and economic activity but ignoring externalities becomes existentially risky as our capacities develop If we prefer human arbitration to nature's blind and brutal judgment, we had better put toothy disincentives in place Is it possible that occasionally punishing an honest mistake or absence of forethought may be the price we have to pay to prevent poisoning by diffusion of sociopathy? It feels wrong, but so does perishing because the species can't deploy technology in the long term interest
    - birdyrooster 3y ago
      Really well said, gets to the heart of the issue truly.
    - anonymouskimmer 3y ago
      > Is it possible that occasionally punishing an honest mistake or absence of forethought may be the price we have to pay to prevent poisoning by diffusion of sociopathy? It's not even about punishing. If you cause a car or home accident because of a mistake, your insurance rates will go up, and if the damage exceeds your coverage, you'll pay out of pocket. There's nothing punitive about it, you're just responsible because of fault. That shouldn't feel wrong. It should evoke pity, but not a feeling of wrongness. For the heirs of the stockholders of these polluting companies we need a special tax to clean up the "accidents" of those companies. These taxes could be limited to the maximum value of the company, or better yet the proportion of the total wealth of the heirs that the company stock represented at the time they sold or dissolved the company. That's still limiting liability, but in the original sense of the term (clawback of sold and wipeout of retained shares). For the heirs of anyone who made a purposeful decision to pollute despite knowing the harms, then the limited liability should be pierced to allow taxation of the fraction of the total wealth of the heirs that derive from the polluter.
- culi 3y ago
  This map (from 2015) shows sites with the most TCE groundwater contamination. Bay Area is actually quite clean. LA is completely fucked though https://www.ewg.org/interactive-maps/2018-tce/ https://www.ewg.org/interactive-maps/2018-tce/
  - xeromal 3y ago
    Thanks for this. Kind of happy my state of GA has none!
    - radlad 3y ago
      It's not clear to me where this data comes from - do spots that are unmarked have none, or are they unmeasured?
      - bobthepanda 3y ago
        The data says it comes from public water systems. The EPA requires testing and reporting of water supplies for lots of things. That being said, if you run your own private well, you’re not subject to this.
    - hindsightbias 3y ago
      https://ar.iiarjournals.org/content/35/7/4009 https://ar.iiarjournals.org/content/35/7/4009 http://www.l-a-k-e.org/blog/2013/10/csx-groundwater-contamination-in-waycross.html http://www.l-a-k-e.org/blog/2013/10/csx-groundwater-contamin...
  - uoaei 3y ago
    https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/toxic-chemical-found-oakland-mcclymonds-high-school-campus-closed/ https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/toxic-chemical-fou... > The Oakland Unified School district announced the temporary closure of the McClymonds to test for the chemical tricloroethylene (TCE), which was found in groundwater under the campus. > "This is West Oakland and so there is a history of environmental injustice, of racial injustice that happens in this community. So these are places where there are leaks, there are dumps, there are things like that that are not healthy for our community," said Jumoke Hinton Hodge, Oakland Board of Education District 3 Director. > McClymonds has recently seen a handful of students and former students develop cancer, including the high-profile cases Darryl Aikens, a McClymonds football player who died of leukemia a month after graduating in 2017, as well as 2018 graduate Ramone Sanders, who died of cancer last fall. Sanders was playing football at Laney College when he broke his leg and it was discovered he had bone cancer that spread to his lungs.
- baremetal 3y ago
  I lived near the Fairchild superfund site for many years. I remember when it was a hollow husk of a concrete building. And then the paved it over and put a supermarket and whatnot there. Growing up I knew a lot of kids that were affected by it, they were called "fairchildren" or a "fairchild". I was born elsewhere and my family moved to the area, the kids that were born there weren't so lucky.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- jeffbee 3y ago
  There are small TCE plumes virtually everywhere in urbanized California. Every dry cleaner in history was just dumping waste TCE and PCE into holes in the ground. If you click around on this map, half of these sites are TCE/PCE (the other half are usually gas, diesel, and MTBE). https://geotracker.waterboards.ca.gov/map/?global_id=SL600192746 https://geotracker.waterboards.ca.gov/map/?global_id=SL60019...
- kelnos 3y ago
  Curious, Treasure Island (in the San Francisco Bay between SF and Oakland) is absolutely a Superfund site, but isn't marked on that map. Oh huh, apparently it avoided getting classified as a Superfund site[0]. Really makes me think that designation isn't all that useful anymore. [0] https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/SF-s-Treasure-Island-poised-for-building-boom-14451339.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/SF-s-Treasure-Is...
rpvnwnkl 3y ago
Still in use at screen-printing shops. Check out ‘Plastisol Remover’: https://sourceone.nazdar.com/P/4377/Triple-Blend-Liquid-Cured-Plastisol-Remover--Stain-Remover https://sourceone.nazdar.com/P/4377/Triple-Blend-Liquid-Cure...
PaulHoule 3y ago
If I remember right, the phase-out happened in the 1990s, just when a lot of manufacturing was leaving the U.S. A few years back I found an internet search for “United States TCE” would turn up articles about Camp Jejune. A search for “China TCE” would turn up a picture of a truck with a bunch of barrels and an offer to buy it on Alibaba.
justin66 3y ago
> that was generally phased out in the 70s Untrue.
- throwaway2037 3y ago
  I too was skeptical of the original post without any references. However, your post also did not provide references. Wiki isn't great, but here is what I found: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichloroethylene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichloroethylene Fetal toxicity and concerns for carcinogenic potential of TCE led to its abandonment in developed countries by the 1980s. The use of trichloroethylene in the food and pharmaceutical industries has been banned in much of the world since the 1970s due to concerns about its toxicity. However, I can still find some pages about "TCE Vapor Degreasing", so it is still in use today: https://www.epa.gov/assessing-and-managing-chemicals-under-tsca/fact-sheet-trichloroethylene-tce https://www.epa.gov/assessing-and-managing-chemicals-under-t... The saddest one I found: https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/substances/trichloroethylene https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/s... Historically, TCE was used as a surgical anesthetic and inhaled analgesic. The Food and Drug Administration banned such use in the United States in 1977. Woah.
  - justin66 3y ago
    > However, your post also did not provide references. I was calling out the lies, not doing other people's research for them. People ought to understand that this stuff stays in the industrial pipeline for years (I'm avoiding the tangent that was brought to mind by another poster's mention of carbon tetrachloride...) and we are still in the process of simply classifying it according to its dangerousness. It's not close to being gone yet. (it's not even banned in the EU yet, and I just assume that will happen well before it's banned here)
    - dcow 3y ago
      Yes but it’s not a lie to say it was phased out in the 70s. Your comment would be more substantial and useful if you made whatever nuance you’re trying to highlight clear.
j45 3y ago
It might still be used in other countries. Might even be unknowingly imported into other countries
quaintdev 3y ago
I wonder what chemicals from today we are going to declare toxic in next 20 years
- quijoteuniv 3y ago
  You can look into how many studies are done in currently used chemicals, spoiler is about 10%, when the chemical is declared unsafe like biphenol, they come up with a a non studied version. Ie: biphenol b and so the games goes
quijoteuniv 3y ago
«However, it’s detectable in many foods, in up to one-third of U.S. drinking water»
TedDoesntTalk 3y ago
TCE is present at Lowry in Denver, an old air force base that is now a huge development of multi-million dollar homes and townhomes. This article is from 2000, before the housing development began. People knew TCE was there but the housing development happened anyway https://extras.denverpost.com/news/news1126.htm https://extras.denverpost.com/news/news1126.htm It’s also at Stapleton, another huge residential area, and previously Denver’s primary airport: “At the former Stapleton Airport, which is also being redeveloped, the TCE is 35 to 40 feet deep, according to Tom Gleason, spokesman for Forest City Stapleton Inc., the private developer overseeing the building. He said it won't have any effect on the redevelopment, which will include homes and commercial areas.” Indeed, it didn’t. The redevelopment happened anyway. And now I’d guess it’s in the air, water, and of course the soil.
- xadhominemx 3y ago
  Its certainly in the soil and groundwater - but why would it be in the air?
  - ta988 3y ago
    Because it is volatile.
  - runjake 3y ago
    Because water evaporates and TCE is particularly good at transmission through water vapor. That's my guess.
    - aurizon 3y ago
      Water vapor is co-distilled with water vapor in room temperature evaporation. Humid air a 70F has a partial pressure of about 0.2 PSI - a substantial amount. I would have to look into tabular data on the H2O TCE system to see, but it is substantial = the smell you get. It also has it's own presence on dry air, but it is higher if water present due to low temperature co-distillation. These soils need to be dug up -washed with super-critical CO2 ($$$), then baked dry with the vapor condensed. This has been done in Toronto at a few old factories. Later they started to create a large underwater landfill area - the 'spit' and created a number of clay and membrane lined lagoons(embayments) where they buried it and covered it with clean fill to make a wild life area. Started about 50-75 years ago and it was well built and monitored since then and has stayed sealed.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leslie_Street_Spit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leslie_Street_Spit
YeGoblynQueenne 3y ago
This paragraph from the article explains the significance of the reported result (and the motivation behind the study): >> About 90% of Parkinson’s cases can’t be explained by genetics, but there have been hints that exposure to TCE may trigger it. The new study, led by researchers at the University of California, San Francisco (UCSF), represents by far the strongest environmental link between TCE and the disease. Until now, the entire epidemiological literature included fewer than 20 people who developed Parkinson’s after TCE exposure. That is to say, the relation between TCE and Parkinsons had, until now, no strong evidence to support it. It seems (not sure, not my field) that now it does. Also note, from the article: >> “Alarmingly, TCE vapor intrusion is widespread today and ranges from an elementary school situated on top of a former chemical facility in Shanghai, China, to multimillion-dollar homes built on a previous aerospace plant in Newport Beach, California,” the authors of an accompanying editorial in JAMA Neurology write.
- q1w2 3y ago
  I don't see this study as strong evidence. They only studied TWO military bases and compared the rate of Parkinson's. There could be any number of environmental differences between these two locations besides the TCE levels in the water. The other issue is that there is an active class action lawsuit about this exact military base. When a study is published that directly reinforces the claims of one side of an active lawsuit, you always need to be cautious about taking it at face value. There could be some conflict of interest or even just sympathy from the scientists that introduces bias in their research methodology.
misja111 3y ago
I remember my chemistry teacher in high school telling how they used to use 'tri' (that's how they called it) a lot to wash their hands in. Until they discovered that it was highly carcinogenic. But yeah, that chemistry class was in the early 80's, so it is now ages ago that tri was still widely used.
zzzeek 3y ago
from the article: > TCE is highly persistent in soil and groundwater; inhalation through vapor from these hidden sources is likely the prime route of exposure today. However, it’s detectable in many foods, in up to one-third of U.S. drinking water, and in breast milk, blood, and urine. the groundwater route still seems pretty troubling
- frankus 3y ago
  It’s also denser than water and somewhat hydrophobic so if I understand correctly it tends to settle at the bottom of aquifers.
  - zzzeek 3y ago
    somehow still in 1/3rd of drinking water tho
qart 3y ago
It's still available in India for about 1$ per kg, MOQ 100kg. https://dir.indiamart.com/search.mp?ss=Trichloroethylene https://dir.indiamart.com/search.mp?ss=Trichloroethylene If it's so cheap, and available in such large quantities, it's definitely getting used today, in massive quantities, in some parts of the world.
nabla9 3y ago
Trichloroethylene is still used but less than before. ~20 000 tonnes today vs. 250 000 tonnes in 1970.
rlt 3y ago
> But in the 20th century, TCE was used for many purposes, including making decaffeinated coffee, dry cleaning, carpet cleaning, and as an inhaled surgical anesthetic for children and women in labor. The things we did with (now known) hazardous chemicals in the 20th century are really disturbing. My question is are there now enough safeguards in place that we're unlikely to be repeating the same mistakes? My guess is no, certainly not with every product imported from other countries. We joke about sketchy smelling products from China, and you occasionally hear about imports being recalled or blocked. How much of it are we missing, both known and unknown chemicals? On the other hand, it's also easy for people disposed to anxiety to go down a rabbit hole where the only conclusion is you should go live off the land in the middle of nowhere...
- logicchains 3y ago
  >My question is are there now enough safeguards in place that we're unlikely to be repeating the same mistakes? Nope. For instance some of the chemicals in sun screen never had to pass rigorous safety testing because it was assumed they couldn't enter the blood, but in fact that's not the case, and already at least one is known to have negative effects on reproductive health: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2733085 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2733085 . Who knows what other chemicals are floating about in various cosmetics entering the bloodstream through the skin without ever being safety tested for that.
  - BizarroLand 3y ago
    Not to mention that many kinds of sunscreen have chemicals in them that kill Coral reefs. It's becoming fairly common for ocean tourist communities to pay attention to, but that won't really stop whatever washes down the rivers.
- hallway_monitor 3y ago
  For chemicals that cause illnesses that take decades to show up, it's my guess that we will never find all of them, and there are likely a lot of them out there. It's a hard problem. Maybe it can be helped by using modelling techniques to extrapolate effects over time.
photochemsyn 3y ago
TCE is widely used in industry (and was introduced as a replacement for more toxic and persistent solvents like chloroform, carbon tetrachloride, etc.). Such non-polar solvents remain critically important for a wide variety of manufacturing processes, e.g. > "TCE the solvent ENTEK uses is essential to ENTEK's separator manufacturing process TCE has a unique combination of chemical properties that , together , facilitate the controlled removal of process oil while allowing ENTEK to efficiently recover and recycle previously used TCE for reuse in both the lead- acid and lithium separator production processes in a manner that minimizes worker exposure while resulting in a product with the characteristics demanded by the battery customers . TCE possesses the following properties critical to ENTEK's use and reuse" (ENTEK TCE rulemaking report to EPA, July 14 2021) The fundamental issue (that led to widespread contamination in the past) is that capturing and recycling TCE after use is fairly expensive, and since it was cheaper to buy new TCE, manufacturers would just dump their dirty used TCE, creating superfund sites etc. There are some approaches to replacing organic solvents entirely (supercritical CO2 for example) but they're often quite expensive.
- anonymouskimmer 3y ago
  > capturing and recycling TCE after use is fairly expensive, and since it was cheaper to buy new TCE, manufacturers would just dump their dirty used TCE, creating superfund sites etc. This isn't a problem, us future generations can just engineer our way out of it at a cheaper cost than it would have been to deal with it in the first place. /s - For sarcasm, and sorry.
  - titzer 3y ago
    Ha. "Let's break all these cups and throw em in a hole! Future people will use something something something tech and put them back together good as new." People are constantly assuming magical future entropy-undoers to justify their breaking and ruining things today.
    - explorer83 3y ago
      I had a family member who used to educate people on recycling. Growing up it was a major fact that styrofoam was a forever material that would never biodegrade and couldn't be recycled. Today there are methods to recycle styrofoam (albeit just like all recycling it takes people and resources to take the effort to do it, which is the real barrier). I don't think being reckless with our future is a good idea. But history is full of past norms being changed by new scientific discoveries.
nabilhat 3y ago
It's used in dry cleaning in the USA, and their suppliers will deliver it to you by the gallon [0]. MSDS of course [1]. If you're in Australia and go to the dentist, there's this as well [2] although surely that container with its death's head and POISON label are kept well out of sight. Of course there's the lab supply chain, but that's usually more expensive. It's really easy and legal to get if you want it. I've known many mechanics and similar, professional and otherwise who use workaround sources like these to get the "good stuff" degreaser. [0] https://garmentcleaningsupply.com/picrin-1-gal-streets.html https://garmentcleaningsupply.com/picrin-1-gal-streets.html [1] http://www.cleanairsupply.com/CleanAir_Web_Image/Chemical/MSDS/MSDS-RRstreets%20Picrin-US%202012-11-05.pdf http://www.cleanairsupply.com/CleanAir_Web_Image/Chemical/MS... [2] https://henryschein.com.au/impression/accessories/finale-solvent-1l-for-mouthguards-and-splints https://henryschein.com.au/impression/accessories/finale-sol...
- TedDoesntTalk 3y ago
  > It's used in dry cleaning in the USA Does it remain in the fabric after use? Is there danger to the wearer of dry-cleaned clothes or only to the people working at dry cleaner businesses?
  - 1attice 3y ago
    Yes. This is why most dry cleaners won't accept bedding. It's considered too high-contact. (If they do accept it, they wash it with something other than TCE) Source: a college friend of mine, years ago, who worked as a dry cleaner. After talking to her, I've never used one since.
    - anonymouse008 3y ago
      > After talking to her, I've never used one since. What do we do about our formal wear then?
      - mgkimsal 3y ago
        go casual? (not entirely /s)
DemocracyFTW2 3y ago
I'm not for panicked reporting, but in the face of the stated facts (as far as true) your comment is overly dismissive: the chemical solvent trichloroethylene (TCE)—common in soil and groundwater—increases the risk of developing Parkinson’s disease. The movement disorder afflicts about 1 million Americans, and is likely the fastest growing neurodegenerative disease in the world; its global prevalence has doubled in the past 25 years. It’s used today mainly in producing refrigerants and as a degreaser in heavy industry. But in the 20th century, TCE was used for many purposes, including making decaffeinated coffee, dry cleaning, carpet cleaning, and as an inhaled surgical anesthetic for children and women in labor. TCE is highly persistent in soil and groundwater; inhalation through vapor from these hidden sources is likely the prime route of exposure today. However, it’s detectable in many foods, in up to one-third of U.S. drinking water, and in breast milk, blood, and urine.
- mikestew 3y ago
  ...and as an inhaled surgical anesthetic for children As one who went under inhaled anesthesia a dozen times or more as a child in the 70s, I can only say, "WTF?" It makes a great solvent, so let's put in anesthesia?
  - DemocracyFTW2 3y ago
    as an inhaled surgical anesthetic for children and women in labor To be fair though, the restricted audience for the administration of this particular chemical would seem to indicate considerations of safety have been applied, otherwise one would expect a more general pattern. One must suspect there are many more chemicals with similarly hard-to-test-for longterm effects in daily use, note especially the so-called 'forever chemicals' (PFAS). What's more, dose / length of exposition makes a poison, so it's not possible to say in the abstract how a short but intense exposition of TCE stacks up against 24/7 exposition of low levels over the entire childhood. Meaning there's hope here. Also can you be sure it was TCE you received? I remember one general anesthesia when I was maybe 9 or so and that was pretty definitely laughing gas. It might have been the same in (some of) your case(s), too.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
causi 3y ago
Anytime you see something unnecessarily and deliberately non-specific in a headline it's always some alarmist bullshit. "Famous actor is arrested for drunk driving" and they had one role in TV twenty years ago. "This everyday snack leads to kidney stones" and it's fish-butthole-flavored chips that were produced in Japan for six weeks in 1998.
lisasays 3y ago
Still important, but you don't need to start searching product labels in 2023 for it. Was this meant to be reassuring? Per the article, you won't find in retail products; but rather, in the soil and groundwater -- where it is "highly persistent".
9935c101ab17a66 3y ago
Did you read the article? Your comment almost made me dismiss this altogether, but imagine my surprise when I started reading the article: > However, it’s detectable in many foods, in up to one-third of U.S. drinking water, and in breast milk, blood, and urine. Yikes. > Alarmingly, TCE vapor intrusion is widespread today and ranges from an elementary school situated on top of a former chemical facility in Shanghai, China, to multimillion-dollar homes built on a previous aerospace plant in Newport Beach, California,” the authors of an accompanying editorial in JAMA Neurology write. Yikes. Your comment was very misleading.

Widely used chemical *(that was generally phased out in the 70s) linked to Parkinson's. Still important, but you don't need to start searching product labels in 2023 for it.

quickthrower2 3y ago

Was it? Read about its use in industry in 90s including a story about someone who got brain damaged by it.

gabaix 3y ago

Some of the most populated zones of the Bay Area are built on top of superfund sites, which have high concentration of TCE underground. https://www.epa.gov/superfund-redevelopment/superfund-sites-reuse-california https://www.epa.gov/superfund-redevelopment/superfund-sites-...

bilbo0s 3y ago
Well one problem is that "Some of the most populated zones of" everywhere are superfund sites. Another, I learned long ago in the real estate business, is that superfund sites are just the sites they've taken the trouble to bother "cleaning up". As the article alludes to, it's not the documented TCE sites we need to worry about, it's the undocumented TCE sites that will likely get the average person. This same rule applies to real estate development. One of the dirty secrets of development is that we really have just poisoned a lot of our environment. Now you can work around that in real estate dev because there are creative ways to interpret disclosure regulations. But Mother Nature doesn't care about such tricks. She has a set of, (in this case chemical), rules and if they're broken, she'll happily punish you without a second thought. I'm not sure how we solve the issue of toxins in our environment? It gets complex not only because of the competing interests, but also because research like this will continue to come out, and something we didn't think was a problem, will turn out to have been a problem. So you're in a situation where you know a lot. You even learn more everyday. But you don't know what you don't know.
- walleeee 3y ago
  I can't help but think we've gone too far in limiting liability Doing so may be an effective way to catalyze invention and economic activity but ignoring externalities becomes existentially risky as our capacities develop If we prefer human arbitration to nature's blind and brutal judgment, we had better put toothy disincentives in place Is it possible that occasionally punishing an honest mistake or absence of forethought may be the price we have to pay to prevent poisoning by diffusion of sociopathy? It feels wrong, but so does perishing because the species can't deploy technology in the long term interest
  - birdyrooster 3y ago
    Really well said, gets to the heart of the issue truly.
  - anonymouskimmer 3y ago
    > Is it possible that occasionally punishing an honest mistake or absence of forethought may be the price we have to pay to prevent poisoning by diffusion of sociopathy? It's not even about punishing. If you cause a car or home accident because of a mistake, your insurance rates will go up, and if the damage exceeds your coverage, you'll pay out of pocket. There's nothing punitive about it, you're just responsible because of fault. That shouldn't feel wrong. It should evoke pity, but not a feeling of wrongness. For the heirs of the stockholders of these polluting companies we need a special tax to clean up the "accidents" of those companies. These taxes could be limited to the maximum value of the company, or better yet the proportion of the total wealth of the heirs that the company stock represented at the time they sold or dissolved the company. That's still limiting liability, but in the original sense of the term (clawback of sold and wipeout of retained shares). For the heirs of anyone who made a purposeful decision to pollute despite knowing the harms, then the limited liability should be pierced to allow taxation of the fraction of the total wealth of the heirs that derive from the polluter.
culi 3y ago
This map (from 2015) shows sites with the most TCE groundwater contamination. Bay Area is actually quite clean. LA is completely fucked though https://www.ewg.org/interactive-maps/2018-tce/ https://www.ewg.org/interactive-maps/2018-tce/
- xeromal 3y ago
  Thanks for this. Kind of happy my state of GA has none!
  - radlad 3y ago
    It's not clear to me where this data comes from - do spots that are unmarked have none, or are they unmeasured?
    - bobthepanda 3y ago
      The data says it comes from public water systems. The EPA requires testing and reporting of water supplies for lots of things. That being said, if you run your own private well, you’re not subject to this.
  - hindsightbias 3y ago
    https://ar.iiarjournals.org/content/35/7/4009 https://ar.iiarjournals.org/content/35/7/4009 http://www.l-a-k-e.org/blog/2013/10/csx-groundwater-contamination-in-waycross.html http://www.l-a-k-e.org/blog/2013/10/csx-groundwater-contamin...
- uoaei 3y ago
  https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/toxic-chemical-found-oakland-mcclymonds-high-school-campus-closed/ https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/toxic-chemical-fou... > The Oakland Unified School district announced the temporary closure of the McClymonds to test for the chemical tricloroethylene (TCE), which was found in groundwater under the campus. > "This is West Oakland and so there is a history of environmental injustice, of racial injustice that happens in this community. So these are places where there are leaks, there are dumps, there are things like that that are not healthy for our community," said Jumoke Hinton Hodge, Oakland Board of Education District 3 Director. > McClymonds has recently seen a handful of students and former students develop cancer, including the high-profile cases Darryl Aikens, a McClymonds football player who died of leukemia a month after graduating in 2017, as well as 2018 graduate Ramone Sanders, who died of cancer last fall. Sanders was playing football at Laney College when he broke his leg and it was discovered he had bone cancer that spread to his lungs.
baremetal 3y ago
I lived near the Fairchild superfund site for many years. I remember when it was a hollow husk of a concrete building. And then the paved it over and put a supermarket and whatnot there. Growing up I knew a lot of kids that were affected by it, they were called "fairchildren" or a "fairchild". I was born elsewhere and my family moved to the area, the kids that were born there weren't so lucky.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
jeffbee 3y ago
There are small TCE plumes virtually everywhere in urbanized California. Every dry cleaner in history was just dumping waste TCE and PCE into holes in the ground. If you click around on this map, half of these sites are TCE/PCE (the other half are usually gas, diesel, and MTBE). https://geotracker.waterboards.ca.gov/map/?global_id=SL600192746 https://geotracker.waterboards.ca.gov/map/?global_id=SL60019...
kelnos 3y ago
Curious, Treasure Island (in the San Francisco Bay between SF and Oakland) is absolutely a Superfund site, but isn't marked on that map. Oh huh, apparently it avoided getting classified as a Superfund site[0]. Really makes me think that designation isn't all that useful anymore. [0] https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/SF-s-Treasure-Island-poised-for-building-boom-14451339.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/SF-s-Treasure-Is...

rpvnwnkl 3y ago

Still in use at screen-printing shops. Check out ‘Plastisol Remover’: https://sourceone.nazdar.com/P/4377/Triple-Blend-Liquid-Cured-Plastisol-Remover--Stain-Remover https://sourceone.nazdar.com/P/4377/Triple-Blend-Liquid-Cure...

PaulHoule 3y ago

If I remember right, the phase-out happened in the 1990s, just when a lot of manufacturing was leaving the U.S. A few years back I found an internet search for “United States TCE” would turn up articles about Camp Jejune. A search for “China TCE” would turn up a picture of a truck with a bunch of barrels and an offer to buy it on Alibaba.

justin66 3y ago

> that was generally phased out in the 70s Untrue.

throwaway2037 3y ago
I too was skeptical of the original post without any references. However, your post also did not provide references. Wiki isn't great, but here is what I found: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichloroethylene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichloroethylene Fetal toxicity and concerns for carcinogenic potential of TCE led to its abandonment in developed countries by the 1980s. The use of trichloroethylene in the food and pharmaceutical industries has been banned in much of the world since the 1970s due to concerns about its toxicity. However, I can still find some pages about "TCE Vapor Degreasing", so it is still in use today: https://www.epa.gov/assessing-and-managing-chemicals-under-tsca/fact-sheet-trichloroethylene-tce https://www.epa.gov/assessing-and-managing-chemicals-under-t... The saddest one I found: https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/substances/trichloroethylene https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/s... Historically, TCE was used as a surgical anesthetic and inhaled analgesic. The Food and Drug Administration banned such use in the United States in 1977. Woah.
- justin66 3y ago
  > However, your post also did not provide references. I was calling out the lies, not doing other people's research for them. People ought to understand that this stuff stays in the industrial pipeline for years (I'm avoiding the tangent that was brought to mind by another poster's mention of carbon tetrachloride...) and we are still in the process of simply classifying it according to its dangerousness. It's not close to being gone yet. (it's not even banned in the EU yet, and I just assume that will happen well before it's banned here)
  - dcow 3y ago
    Yes but it’s not a lie to say it was phased out in the 70s. Your comment would be more substantial and useful if you made whatever nuance you’re trying to highlight clear.

j45 3y ago

It might still be used in other countries. Might even be unknowingly imported into other countries

quaintdev 3y ago

I wonder what chemicals from today we are going to declare toxic in next 20 years

quijoteuniv 3y ago
You can look into how many studies are done in currently used chemicals, spoiler is about 10%, when the chemical is declared unsafe like biphenol, they come up with a a non studied version. Ie: biphenol b and so the games goes

quijoteuniv 3y ago

«However, it’s detectable in many foods, in up to one-third of U.S. drinking water»

TedDoesntTalk 3y ago

TCE is present at Lowry in Denver, an old air force base that is now a huge development of multi-million dollar homes and townhomes. This article is from 2000, before the housing development began. People knew TCE was there but the housing development happened anyway https://extras.denverpost.com/news/news1126.htm https://extras.denverpost.com/news/news1126.htm It’s also at Stapleton, another huge residential area, and previously Denver’s primary airport: “At the former Stapleton Airport, which is also being redeveloped, the TCE is 35 to 40 feet deep, according to Tom Gleason, spokesman for Forest City Stapleton Inc., the private developer overseeing the building. He said it won't have any effect on the redevelopment, which will include homes and commercial areas.” Indeed, it didn’t. The redevelopment happened anyway. And now I’d guess it’s in the air, water, and of course the soil.

xadhominemx 3y ago
Its certainly in the soil and groundwater - but why would it be in the air?
- ta988 3y ago
  Because it is volatile.
- runjake 3y ago
  Because water evaporates and TCE is particularly good at transmission through water vapor. That's my guess.
  - aurizon 3y ago
    Water vapor is co-distilled with water vapor in room temperature evaporation. Humid air a 70F has a partial pressure of about 0.2 PSI - a substantial amount. I would have to look into tabular data on the H2O TCE system to see, but it is substantial = the smell you get. It also has it's own presence on dry air, but it is higher if water present due to low temperature co-distillation. These soils need to be dug up -washed with super-critical CO2 ($$$), then baked dry with the vapor condensed. This has been done in Toronto at a few old factories. Later they started to create a large underwater landfill area - the 'spit' and created a number of clay and membrane lined lagoons(embayments) where they buried it and covered it with clean fill to make a wild life area. Started about 50-75 years ago and it was well built and monitored since then and has stayed sealed.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leslie_Street_Spit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leslie_Street_Spit

YeGoblynQueenne 3y ago

This paragraph from the article explains the significance of the reported result (and the motivation behind the study): >> About 90% of Parkinson’s cases can’t be explained by genetics, but there have been hints that exposure to TCE may trigger it. The new study, led by researchers at the University of California, San Francisco (UCSF), represents by far the strongest environmental link between TCE and the disease. Until now, the entire epidemiological literature included fewer than 20 people who developed Parkinson’s after TCE exposure. That is to say, the relation between TCE and Parkinsons had, until now, no strong evidence to support it. It seems (not sure, not my field) that now it does. Also note, from the article: >> “Alarmingly, TCE vapor intrusion is widespread today and ranges from an elementary school situated on top of a former chemical facility in Shanghai, China, to multimillion-dollar homes built on a previous aerospace plant in Newport Beach, California,” the authors of an accompanying editorial in JAMA Neurology write.

q1w2 3y ago
I don't see this study as strong evidence. They only studied TWO military bases and compared the rate of Parkinson's. There could be any number of environmental differences between these two locations besides the TCE levels in the water. The other issue is that there is an active class action lawsuit about this exact military base. When a study is published that directly reinforces the claims of one side of an active lawsuit, you always need to be cautious about taking it at face value. There could be some conflict of interest or even just sympathy from the scientists that introduces bias in their research methodology.

misja111 3y ago

I remember my chemistry teacher in high school telling how they used to use 'tri' (that's how they called it) a lot to wash their hands in. Until they discovered that it was highly carcinogenic. But yeah, that chemistry class was in the early 80's, so it is now ages ago that tri was still widely used.

zzzeek 3y ago

from the article: > TCE is highly persistent in soil and groundwater; inhalation through vapor from these hidden sources is likely the prime route of exposure today. However, it’s detectable in many foods, in up to one-third of U.S. drinking water, and in breast milk, blood, and urine. the groundwater route still seems pretty troubling

frankus 3y ago
It’s also denser than water and somewhat hydrophobic so if I understand correctly it tends to settle at the bottom of aquifers.
- zzzeek 3y ago
  somehow still in 1/3rd of drinking water tho

qart 3y ago

It's still available in India for about 1$ per kg, MOQ 100kg. https://dir.indiamart.com/search.mp?ss=Trichloroethylene https://dir.indiamart.com/search.mp?ss=Trichloroethylene If it's so cheap, and available in such large quantities, it's definitely getting used today, in massive quantities, in some parts of the world.

nabla9 3y ago

Trichloroethylene is still used but less than before. ~20 000 tonnes today vs. 250 000 tonnes in 1970.

rlt 3y ago

> But in the 20th century, TCE was used for many purposes, including making decaffeinated coffee, dry cleaning, carpet cleaning, and as an inhaled surgical anesthetic for children and women in labor. The things we did with (now known) hazardous chemicals in the 20th century are really disturbing. My question is are there now enough safeguards in place that we're unlikely to be repeating the same mistakes? My guess is no, certainly not with every product imported from other countries. We joke about sketchy smelling products from China, and you occasionally hear about imports being recalled or blocked. How much of it are we missing, both known and unknown chemicals? On the other hand, it's also easy for people disposed to anxiety to go down a rabbit hole where the only conclusion is you should go live off the land in the middle of nowhere...

logicchains 3y ago
>My question is are there now enough safeguards in place that we're unlikely to be repeating the same mistakes? Nope. For instance some of the chemicals in sun screen never had to pass rigorous safety testing because it was assumed they couldn't enter the blood, but in fact that's not the case, and already at least one is known to have negative effects on reproductive health: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2733085 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2733085 . Who knows what other chemicals are floating about in various cosmetics entering the bloodstream through the skin without ever being safety tested for that.
- BizarroLand 3y ago
  Not to mention that many kinds of sunscreen have chemicals in them that kill Coral reefs. It's becoming fairly common for ocean tourist communities to pay attention to, but that won't really stop whatever washes down the rivers.
hallway_monitor 3y ago
For chemicals that cause illnesses that take decades to show up, it's my guess that we will never find all of them, and there are likely a lot of them out there. It's a hard problem. Maybe it can be helped by using modelling techniques to extrapolate effects over time.

photochemsyn 3y ago

TCE is widely used in industry (and was introduced as a replacement for more toxic and persistent solvents like chloroform, carbon tetrachloride, etc.). Such non-polar solvents remain critically important for a wide variety of manufacturing processes, e.g. > "TCE the solvent ENTEK uses is essential to ENTEK's separator manufacturing process TCE has a unique combination of chemical properties that , together , facilitate the controlled removal of process oil while allowing ENTEK to efficiently recover and recycle previously used TCE for reuse in both the lead- acid and lithium separator production processes in a manner that minimizes worker exposure while resulting in a product with the characteristics demanded by the battery customers . TCE possesses the following properties critical to ENTEK's use and reuse" (ENTEK TCE rulemaking report to EPA, July 14 2021) The fundamental issue (that led to widespread contamination in the past) is that capturing and recycling TCE after use is fairly expensive, and since it was cheaper to buy new TCE, manufacturers would just dump their dirty used TCE, creating superfund sites etc. There are some approaches to replacing organic solvents entirely (supercritical CO2 for example) but they're often quite expensive.

anonymouskimmer 3y ago
> capturing and recycling TCE after use is fairly expensive, and since it was cheaper to buy new TCE, manufacturers would just dump their dirty used TCE, creating superfund sites etc. This isn't a problem, us future generations can just engineer our way out of it at a cheaper cost than it would have been to deal with it in the first place. /s - For sarcasm, and sorry.
- titzer 3y ago
  Ha. "Let's break all these cups and throw em in a hole! Future people will use something something something tech and put them back together good as new." People are constantly assuming magical future entropy-undoers to justify their breaking and ruining things today.
  - explorer83 3y ago
    I had a family member who used to educate people on recycling. Growing up it was a major fact that styrofoam was a forever material that would never biodegrade and couldn't be recycled. Today there are methods to recycle styrofoam (albeit just like all recycling it takes people and resources to take the effort to do it, which is the real barrier). I don't think being reckless with our future is a good idea. But history is full of past norms being changed by new scientific discoveries.

nabilhat 3y ago

It's used in dry cleaning in the USA, and their suppliers will deliver it to you by the gallon [0]. MSDS of course [1]. If you're in Australia and go to the dentist, there's this as well [2] although surely that container with its death's head and POISON label are kept well out of sight. Of course there's the lab supply chain, but that's usually more expensive. It's really easy and legal to get if you want it. I've known many mechanics and similar, professional and otherwise who use workaround sources like these to get the "good stuff" degreaser. [0] https://garmentcleaningsupply.com/picrin-1-gal-streets.html https://garmentcleaningsupply.com/picrin-1-gal-streets.html [1] http://www.cleanairsupply.com/CleanAir_Web_Image/Chemical/MSDS/MSDS-RRstreets%20Picrin-US%202012-11-05.pdf http://www.cleanairsupply.com/CleanAir_Web_Image/Chemical/MS... [2] https://henryschein.com.au/impression/accessories/finale-solvent-1l-for-mouthguards-and-splints https://henryschein.com.au/impression/accessories/finale-sol...

TedDoesntTalk 3y ago
> It's used in dry cleaning in the USA Does it remain in the fabric after use? Is there danger to the wearer of dry-cleaned clothes or only to the people working at dry cleaner businesses?
- 1attice 3y ago
  Yes. This is why most dry cleaners won't accept bedding. It's considered too high-contact. (If they do accept it, they wash it with something other than TCE) Source: a college friend of mine, years ago, who worked as a dry cleaner. After talking to her, I've never used one since.
  - anonymouse008 3y ago
    > After talking to her, I've never used one since. What do we do about our formal wear then?
    - mgkimsal 3y ago
      go casual? (not entirely /s)

DemocracyFTW2 3y ago

I'm not for panicked reporting, but in the face of the stated facts (as far as true) your comment is overly dismissive: the chemical solvent trichloroethylene (TCE)—common in soil and groundwater—increases the risk of developing Parkinson’s disease. The movement disorder afflicts about 1 million Americans, and is likely the fastest growing neurodegenerative disease in the world; its global prevalence has doubled in the past 25 years. It’s used today mainly in producing refrigerants and as a degreaser in heavy industry. But in the 20th century, TCE was used for many purposes, including making decaffeinated coffee, dry cleaning, carpet cleaning, and as an inhaled surgical anesthetic for children and women in labor. TCE is highly persistent in soil and groundwater; inhalation through vapor from these hidden sources is likely the prime route of exposure today. However, it’s detectable in many foods, in up to one-third of U.S. drinking water, and in breast milk, blood, and urine.

mikestew 3y ago
...and as an inhaled surgical anesthetic for children As one who went under inhaled anesthesia a dozen times or more as a child in the 70s, I can only say, "WTF?" It makes a great solvent, so let's put in anesthesia?
- DemocracyFTW2 3y ago
  as an inhaled surgical anesthetic for children and women in labor To be fair though, the restricted audience for the administration of this particular chemical would seem to indicate considerations of safety have been applied, otherwise one would expect a more general pattern. One must suspect there are many more chemicals with similarly hard-to-test-for longterm effects in daily use, note especially the so-called 'forever chemicals' (PFAS). What's more, dose / length of exposition makes a poison, so it's not possible to say in the abstract how a short but intense exposition of TCE stacks up against 24/7 exposition of low levels over the entire childhood. Meaning there's hope here. Also can you be sure it was TCE you received? I remember one general anesthesia when I was maybe 9 or so and that was pretty definitely laughing gas. It might have been the same in (some of) your case(s), too.

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causi 3y ago

Anytime you see something unnecessarily and deliberately non-specific in a headline it's always some alarmist bullshit. "Famous actor is arrested for drunk driving" and they had one role in TV twenty years ago. "This everyday snack leads to kidney stones" and it's fish-butthole-flavored chips that were produced in Japan for six weeks in 1998.

lisasays 3y ago

Still important, but you don't need to start searching product labels in 2023 for it. Was this meant to be reassuring? Per the article, you won't find in retail products; but rather, in the soil and groundwater -- where it is "highly persistent".

9935c101ab17a66 3y ago

Did you read the article? Your comment almost made me dismiss this altogether, but imagine my surprise when I started reading the article: > However, it’s detectable in many foods, in up to one-third of U.S. drinking water, and in breast milk, blood, and urine. Yikes. > Alarmingly, TCE vapor intrusion is widespread today and ranges from an elementary school situated on top of a former chemical facility in Shanghai, China, to multimillion-dollar homes built on a previous aerospace plant in Newport Beach, California,” the authors of an accompanying editorial in JAMA Neurology write. Yikes. Your comment was very misleading.