4 ms·

If an individual committed fraud by impersonating millions of people, they'd be in prison.

EGreg 3y ago
It seems the thing to do, before you dump toxic chemicals into the water or whatever, is to open a corporation. "Mistakes were made", after all. This is only trumped by by sovereign immunity, for starting wars or oil spills or releasing viruses or whatever. "Bush is gone, let's move on - why are you still on that?" State Power is great isn't it?
- TheCleric 3y ago
  Don't forget absolute immunity for bad prosecutors and qualified immunity for bad cops!
- arp242 3y ago
  Ambrose Bierce already hit the nail on the head in 1911: "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility."
__MatrixMan__ 3y ago
Let's put some shareholders in prison.
- jonathankoren 3y ago
  Just the executives
  - __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
    If my dog bites somebody, I'm on the hook. It should be no different with companies--otherwise there's no incentive to avoid funding shady behavior. Stock ownership is rewarding because it's risky. Let it be risky.
    - pooper 3y ago
      I will not silently go to prison because my 401k worth under USD 20k owns 0.0015 shares as a part of some mutual fund. The CEO and the board do not do my bidding. Send them to prison.
      - labster 3y ago
        Technically you own shares of a mutual fund, and the mutual fund owns the stock. Unless the mutual fund only owns its shares via ownership share in a bank, which owns a derivative which owns the 0.0015 shares. Which is generally why responsibility stops with the board of directors, because there’s no way there was criminal intent through four layers of indirection. (Except shell companies, of course.)
        8note 3y ago
        Intent sure, but negligence?
      - __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
        Practically speaking, I'd expect the courts to round up the top 10 shareholders or something like that. In principle though, I think partial ownership of a harmful company should expose you to some liability, whether or not the CEO listens to you.
      - callalex 3y ago
        That sounds like it would be a very strong incentive for investors to avoid potentially bad actors and instead favor non-criminal investments such as bonds. This is a feature.
        Rexxar 3y ago
        So you do a convertible bond with a buy option that give you 90% of the company if it's successful and you still avoid risks and get all of the profit.
      - oefnak 3y ago
  - harry8 3y ago
    Board of directors, representing the shareholders and elected by them need some prison time.
    - MathMonkeyMan 3y ago
      They're protected. People with that much money only go to jail if they mess with other rich people's money, and still seldom.
  - undersuit 3y ago
    I would be completely open to prosecuting a majority stake holder who insisted they were not responsible for a companies' abhorent actions because we have no evidence that all their personal requests passed the board.
    - eastbound 3y ago
      I would be perfectly fine with prosecuting every single employee as well. The level of “I didn’t see the contents of documents I printed” is far too high everywhere, and if employees were unwilling to carry illegal activity, it would be much harder to perform this level of crime. It’s exactly similar to everyone who participated in a pyramid scheme is liable for the last round of victims. Up to you to get informed.
anovikov 3y ago
Not really. Vast majority of the crypto money made in 2021-2022 was by swarming ICOs and launchpads with sometimes hundreds of thousands (among people i personally know) and probably millions among those i don't, fake accounts - all having real names, addresses, IPs, passport scans etc. - getting in onto highly deficit launches when like 1 in a 100 trying gets in, and then the coin goes 10x because of immense demand. You do it with 100K accs, 1000 get in and buy coin for $500 each, you get $4m profit spending $500K for buy-ins and another $500K for accounts themselves ($5 apiece). Until even that stopped working because apparently, these fraudsters simply ran out of people worldwide. Some rather ordinary people made north of $100M this way, and i'm sure there are those i don't know (i'm not really in crypto at all, just like hanging out with smart guys) tho made billions. No one went to jail as far as i heard.
- csomar 3y ago
  Many went to jail and some celebrities got fines. I'm pretty sure some went under the radar but the prosecution is still working on the years 2016-2019. If you are in the US and you've been involved in such sh*t, you are in really bad position.
  - anovikov 3y ago
    People who defrauded "investors" by advertising shitcoins - sure! But that was a purely anonymous, scripted activity.

It seems the thing to do, before you dump toxic chemicals into the water or whatever, is to open a corporation. "Mistakes were made", after all. This is only trumped by by sovereign immunity, for starting wars or oil spills or releasing viruses or whatever. "Bush is gone, let's move on - why are you still on that?" State Power is great isn't it?

TheCleric 3y ago
Don't forget absolute immunity for bad prosecutors and qualified immunity for bad cops!
arp242 3y ago
Ambrose Bierce already hit the nail on the head in 1911: "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility."

__MatrixMan__ 3y ago

Let's put some shareholders in prison.

jonathankoren 3y ago
Just the executives
- __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
  If my dog bites somebody, I'm on the hook. It should be no different with companies--otherwise there's no incentive to avoid funding shady behavior. Stock ownership is rewarding because it's risky. Let it be risky.
  - pooper 3y ago
    I will not silently go to prison because my 401k worth under USD 20k owns 0.0015 shares as a part of some mutual fund. The CEO and the board do not do my bidding. Send them to prison.
    - labster 3y ago
      Technically you own shares of a mutual fund, and the mutual fund owns the stock. Unless the mutual fund only owns its shares via ownership share in a bank, which owns a derivative which owns the 0.0015 shares. Which is generally why responsibility stops with the board of directors, because there’s no way there was criminal intent through four layers of indirection. (Except shell companies, of course.)
      - 8note 3y ago
        Intent sure, but negligence?
    - __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
      Practically speaking, I'd expect the courts to round up the top 10 shareholders or something like that. In principle though, I think partial ownership of a harmful company should expose you to some liability, whether or not the CEO listens to you.
    - callalex 3y ago
      That sounds like it would be a very strong incentive for investors to avoid potentially bad actors and instead favor non-criminal investments such as bonds. This is a feature.
      - Rexxar 3y ago
        So you do a convertible bond with a buy option that give you 90% of the company if it's successful and you still avoid risks and get all of the profit.
    - oefnak 3y ago
- harry8 3y ago
  Board of directors, representing the shareholders and elected by them need some prison time.
  - MathMonkeyMan 3y ago
    They're protected. People with that much money only go to jail if they mess with other rich people's money, and still seldom.
- undersuit 3y ago
  I would be completely open to prosecuting a majority stake holder who insisted they were not responsible for a companies' abhorent actions because we have no evidence that all their personal requests passed the board.
  - eastbound 3y ago
    I would be perfectly fine with prosecuting every single employee as well. The level of “I didn’t see the contents of documents I printed” is far too high everywhere, and if employees were unwilling to carry illegal activity, it would be much harder to perform this level of crime. It’s exactly similar to everyone who participated in a pyramid scheme is liable for the last round of victims. Up to you to get informed.

anovikov 3y ago

Not really. Vast majority of the crypto money made in 2021-2022 was by swarming ICOs and launchpads with sometimes hundreds of thousands (among people i personally know) and probably millions among those i don't, fake accounts - all having real names, addresses, IPs, passport scans etc. - getting in onto highly deficit launches when like 1 in a 100 trying gets in, and then the coin goes 10x because of immense demand. You do it with 100K accs, 1000 get in and buy coin for $500 each, you get $4m profit spending $500K for buy-ins and another $500K for accounts themselves ($5 apiece). Until even that stopped working because apparently, these fraudsters simply ran out of people worldwide. Some rather ordinary people made north of $100M this way, and i'm sure there are those i don't know (i'm not really in crypto at all, just like hanging out with smart guys) tho made billions. No one went to jail as far as i heard.

csomar 3y ago
Many went to jail and some celebrities got fines. I'm pretty sure some went under the radar but the prosecution is still working on the years 2016-2019. If you are in the US and you've been involved in such sh*t, you are in really bad position.
- anovikov 3y ago
  People who defrauded "investors" by advertising shitcoins - sure! But that was a purely anonymous, scripted activity.