8 ms·

>The only reason I go to work is for money. Don't forget healthcare being tied directly to being employed. If it was not for that, people could purse their pa

>The only reason I go to work is for money. Don't forget healthcare being tied directly to being employed. If it was not for that, people could purse their passions versus what they have to do just because.

UncleOxidant 3y ago
I tend to agree, but then I wonder if people in places like Canada (which has universal healthcare) tend to pursue their passions more than those of us in the US?
- appleaday1 3y ago
  Canada is kind of slowly imploding. It's going through a lot of crisis currently. Housing is one of the biggest ones, for example I am a housing activist and trying to do something actively about the housing crisis happening in Canada.
  - mulmen 3y ago
    Can you give an example of what actually happened up there? And what you are doing? I hear rumors (China!) but you seem much more knowledgeable on the topic. I live down in Seattle so I'm curious how similar the situations are.
    - cableshaft 3y ago
      I don't live in Canada, but Toronto has an average housing cost of $1.1 million dollars (USD)[1], which is almost as much as San Francisco (at $1.3 million dollars)[2]. Meanwhile the average salary in Toronto is $52k USD per year[3], versus San Francisco's average salary of $109k[4]. So that might give you some idea. [1]: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-home-sales-1.6802017 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-home-sales-1.... [2]: https://www.zillow.com/home-values/20330/san-francisco-ca/ https://www.zillow.com/home-values/20330/san-francisco-ca/ [3]: https://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Location=Toronto-Ontario/Salary https://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Location=Toronto-Ontari... [4]: https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Location=San-Francisco-CA/Salary https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Location=San-Francisco-...
      - mulmen 3y ago
        I’m more interested in how this happened, not that it is happening.
        908B64B197 3y ago
        Out of control immigration. 10x per capita what's allowed in the US, all going to three major cities. Not only that, but when filing out immigration petitions, most firms will actually file in Canada and the US. Workers who can't meet the higher bar for US immigration will be sent to Canada.
        curmudgeon22 3y ago
        Immigration is actually an interesting one. There is a large amount of immigration for sure, but my understanding is that our economy will be in huge trouble without it. We don't have sufficient birth rates to maintain things and so both economic productivity but also the tax base will be significantly harmed without this immigration. That's not to disagree with your comment, the large amounts of immigration do cause problems and as you say, much of it flows into certain cities.
        908B64B197 3y ago
        > We don't have sufficient birth rates to maintain things and so both economic productivity but also the tax base will be significantly harmed without this immigration. With family reunification, it's not uncommon to see aging parents and relatives be sponsored. They add very little to the tax base but are a huge burden long term.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        curmudgeon22 3y ago
        Fair point. I have no data, but assume that's a minority of immigrants. Also, there are some requirements to support those family members: "You will also sign a Sponsorship Agreement, obligating you to financially support your sponsored relatives if they cant provide for their own needs. The new permanent resident will not qualify for government assistance, even after the sponsored person becomes a permanent resident, separates from you, or leaves the country." "To sponsor a parent or grandparent, you must obligate yourself for 20 years of financial support." https://greenlightcanada.com/how-much-does-it-cost-to-sponsor-a-family-member-in-canada/ https://greenlightcanada.com/how-much-does-it-cost-to-sponso...
    - Ardon 3y ago
      The North American development pattern is unsustainable. It costs more money than to maintain than could possibly be paid for by property taxes. It's wildly inefficient in basically every way. We've been okay for a while since we use the influx of cash from new developments to support our existing maintenance obligations, but that adds new maintenance in the future. It's functionally a Ponzi scheme, and now it's starting to unravel. It'll happen in the U.S. too, just slower since the U.S. is bigger.
    - laratied 3y ago
      [dead]
  - UncleOxidant 3y ago
    Much of the world seems to have a housing crisis right now. I recall a few weeks ago there was discussion here about the housing crisis in Ireland. I'd say we have something of a housing crisis in many parts of the US as well. Not enough housing was built during and in the aftermath of the great recession - that seems to be how we've arrived at this problem. Housing is hugely expensive both to buy and to rent. It's taking a large bite out of budgets - that's the crisis. Something's gotta give.
- geodel 3y ago
  Could be. Though I see lot of Canadians coming in US for employment or even just for weekly shopping in border states. Seems nothing like quality groceries, winter clothing and Gas etc on Canada side.
  - bluefirebrand 3y ago
    It's not that there's nothing quality in Canada. Everything is just cheaper in the USA Canadians have much lower purchasing power than Americans. We earn less than Americans for the same work, we earn CAD which makes it even lower, and on average everything costs more here too. It is shocking to me how cheap things like gas and groceries are in the USA, even after factoring exchange rate. Nevermind how expensive technology is here.
k8sToGo 3y ago
I live in Europe and I still have to go to work.
- idontpost 3y ago
  [dead]
- nightski 3y ago
  Not only that, software salaries in Europe tend to be far lower on average.
  - BossingAround 3y ago
    I've seen this argument over and over again, as if "more expensive to employ" directly causes "lower salaries". I don't think the two are directly tied. If it costs you $150k to pay $90k employee salary, for example, that doesn't explain why there are $300k+ employees in the Valley (while that amount of money is kind of preposterous in Europe, though I'm sure some have it as well). In my mind, it's rather a combination of: 1) European employees not willing to work much more than 8h a day (whereas US folks tend to work themselves to the bone) 2) European employees living in cheaper countries (so the HR has a ready-made BS answer to "why do I earn less than my US counterparts) 3) What I believe is a bit of disrespect towards non-US employees. If the company's based in the US, the upper management's going to be US, and I often feel like the attitude is somewhat "your education must have been worse than the US one, so you'll probably be worse than US engineers" kind of a deal. This is, of course, very subtle; I've personally never felt that from my immediate co-workers, but the salary policies seem to be geared this way. Of course, being more expensive to employ doesn't help. I'm sure it's one of the contributing factors too. But, as a European, I feel like it's far from being in the top 5 reasons for the salary discrepancies.
    - nightski 3y ago
      You are implying a causal relationship where I was not. My point wasn't that socialized health care would be bad or that we shouldn't adopt it in the U.S. (I support the idea). Just that for many Americans working in tech (who don't have rare conditions) the cost of health insurance is not a huge factor relative to their salary or billable rate. As an anecdote in my 30s working as a consultant I paid $300/mo per person in my household. That's with an effective tax rate of like 12% for middle class which is absurdly low. On top of which tech workers can probably afford to shove in the max contribution to an HSA every year completely tax free and then use it for healthcare expenses and/or invest it for retirement otherwise (that's what my wife & I do).
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Jach 3y ago
Tell that to the tons of working people out there without workplace sponsored group health insurance. But it's "only" on the order of $200-300/mo for a basic individual plan, and depending on tax income you can get some or all of that back when you file your returns. If you're interested in reasoning from horror stories, might as well ignore FTE group insurance plans too since those don't necessarily protect against life ruining expenses either. If anything, employers should be more on board with sponsoring trips to Mexico/India/other places with quality no-waiting healthcare on the cheaper side of things. As for people pursuing their passions if only X... there are many people who for various reasons do not have to work and who don't work, it's not a hard sell to extrapolate that the behavior of more people joining that class would be much the same as people already in it. For most of them, most of their time is not spent on Star Trek-ish ideals of bettering humanity/themselves or on passion projects.

UncleOxidant 3y ago

I tend to agree, but then I wonder if people in places like Canada (which has universal healthcare) tend to pursue their passions more than those of us in the US?

appleaday1 3y ago
Canada is kind of slowly imploding. It's going through a lot of crisis currently. Housing is one of the biggest ones, for example I am a housing activist and trying to do something actively about the housing crisis happening in Canada.
- mulmen 3y ago
  Can you give an example of what actually happened up there? And what you are doing? I hear rumors (China!) but you seem much more knowledgeable on the topic. I live down in Seattle so I'm curious how similar the situations are.
  - cableshaft 3y ago
    I don't live in Canada, but Toronto has an average housing cost of $1.1 million dollars (USD)[1], which is almost as much as San Francisco (at $1.3 million dollars)[2]. Meanwhile the average salary in Toronto is $52k USD per year[3], versus San Francisco's average salary of $109k[4]. So that might give you some idea. [1]: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-home-sales-1.6802017 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-home-sales-1.... [2]: https://www.zillow.com/home-values/20330/san-francisco-ca/ https://www.zillow.com/home-values/20330/san-francisco-ca/ [3]: https://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Location=Toronto-Ontario/Salary https://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Location=Toronto-Ontari... [4]: https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Location=San-Francisco-CA/Salary https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Location=San-Francisco-...
    - mulmen 3y ago
      I’m more interested in how this happened, not that it is happening.
      - 908B64B197 3y ago
        Out of control immigration. 10x per capita what's allowed in the US, all going to three major cities. Not only that, but when filing out immigration petitions, most firms will actually file in Canada and the US. Workers who can't meet the higher bar for US immigration will be sent to Canada.
        curmudgeon22 3y ago
        Immigration is actually an interesting one. There is a large amount of immigration for sure, but my understanding is that our economy will be in huge trouble without it. We don't have sufficient birth rates to maintain things and so both economic productivity but also the tax base will be significantly harmed without this immigration. That's not to disagree with your comment, the large amounts of immigration do cause problems and as you say, much of it flows into certain cities.
        908B64B197 3y ago
        > We don't have sufficient birth rates to maintain things and so both economic productivity but also the tax base will be significantly harmed without this immigration. With family reunification, it's not uncommon to see aging parents and relatives be sponsored. They add very little to the tax base but are a huge burden long term.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        curmudgeon22 3y ago
        Fair point. I have no data, but assume that's a minority of immigrants. Also, there are some requirements to support those family members: "You will also sign a Sponsorship Agreement, obligating you to financially support your sponsored relatives if they cant provide for their own needs. The new permanent resident will not qualify for government assistance, even after the sponsored person becomes a permanent resident, separates from you, or leaves the country." "To sponsor a parent or grandparent, you must obligate yourself for 20 years of financial support." https://greenlightcanada.com/how-much-does-it-cost-to-sponsor-a-family-member-in-canada/ https://greenlightcanada.com/how-much-does-it-cost-to-sponso...
  - Ardon 3y ago
    The North American development pattern is unsustainable. It costs more money than to maintain than could possibly be paid for by property taxes. It's wildly inefficient in basically every way. We've been okay for a while since we use the influx of cash from new developments to support our existing maintenance obligations, but that adds new maintenance in the future. It's functionally a Ponzi scheme, and now it's starting to unravel. It'll happen in the U.S. too, just slower since the U.S. is bigger.
  - laratied 3y ago
    [dead]
- UncleOxidant 3y ago
  Much of the world seems to have a housing crisis right now. I recall a few weeks ago there was discussion here about the housing crisis in Ireland. I'd say we have something of a housing crisis in many parts of the US as well. Not enough housing was built during and in the aftermath of the great recession - that seems to be how we've arrived at this problem. Housing is hugely expensive both to buy and to rent. It's taking a large bite out of budgets - that's the crisis. Something's gotta give.
geodel 3y ago
Could be. Though I see lot of Canadians coming in US for employment or even just for weekly shopping in border states. Seems nothing like quality groceries, winter clothing and Gas etc on Canada side.
- bluefirebrand 3y ago
  It's not that there's nothing quality in Canada. Everything is just cheaper in the USA Canadians have much lower purchasing power than Americans. We earn less than Americans for the same work, we earn CAD which makes it even lower, and on average everything costs more here too. It is shocking to me how cheap things like gas and groceries are in the USA, even after factoring exchange rate. Nevermind how expensive technology is here.

k8sToGo 3y ago

I live in Europe and I still have to go to work.

idontpost 3y ago
[dead]
nightski 3y ago
Not only that, software salaries in Europe tend to be far lower on average.
- BossingAround 3y ago
  I've seen this argument over and over again, as if "more expensive to employ" directly causes "lower salaries". I don't think the two are directly tied. If it costs you $150k to pay $90k employee salary, for example, that doesn't explain why there are $300k+ employees in the Valley (while that amount of money is kind of preposterous in Europe, though I'm sure some have it as well). In my mind, it's rather a combination of: 1) European employees not willing to work much more than 8h a day (whereas US folks tend to work themselves to the bone) 2) European employees living in cheaper countries (so the HR has a ready-made BS answer to "why do I earn less than my US counterparts) 3) What I believe is a bit of disrespect towards non-US employees. If the company's based in the US, the upper management's going to be US, and I often feel like the attitude is somewhat "your education must have been worse than the US one, so you'll probably be worse than US engineers" kind of a deal. This is, of course, very subtle; I've personally never felt that from my immediate co-workers, but the salary policies seem to be geared this way. Of course, being more expensive to employ doesn't help. I'm sure it's one of the contributing factors too. But, as a European, I feel like it's far from being in the top 5 reasons for the salary discrepancies.
  - nightski 3y ago
    You are implying a causal relationship where I was not. My point wasn't that socialized health care would be bad or that we shouldn't adopt it in the U.S. (I support the idea). Just that for many Americans working in tech (who don't have rare conditions) the cost of health insurance is not a huge factor relative to their salary or billable rate. As an anecdote in my 30s working as a consultant I paid $300/mo per person in my household. That's with an effective tax rate of like 12% for middle class which is absurdly low. On top of which tech workers can probably afford to shove in the max contribution to an HSA every year completely tax free and then use it for healthcare expenses and/or invest it for retirement otherwise (that's what my wife & I do).

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

Jach 3y ago

Tell that to the tons of working people out there without workplace sponsored group health insurance. But it's "only" on the order of $200-300/mo for a basic individual plan, and depending on tax income you can get some or all of that back when you file your returns. If you're interested in reasoning from horror stories, might as well ignore FTE group insurance plans too since those don't necessarily protect against life ruining expenses either. If anything, employers should be more on board with sponsoring trips to Mexico/India/other places with quality no-waiting healthcare on the cheaper side of things. As for people pursuing their passions if only X... there are many people who for various reasons do not have to work and who don't work, it's not a hard sell to extrapolate that the behavior of more people joining that class would be much the same as people already in it. For most of them, most of their time is not spent on Star Trek-ish ideals of bettering humanity/themselves or on passion projects.