6 ms·

Goodbye to Roblox on Linux with their new anti-cheat and Wine blocking

67 points by 0xC0ncord 3y ago

RockRobotRock 3y ago
The staff response sounds perfectly reasonable. Maybe you should do something else with your day instead of getting mad at a children's game not supporting an uncommon operating system?
emptysongglass 3y ago
Was it Linus himself who said don't take things away from users? The person they quoted from Roblox staff says they have to support a client they release. But why? Engaging with a community means you don't parent them. Tell the community, “hey we can't support this but if you want to support it yourselves we trust you to be adults about it”. That would be the most positive action to come from this. Instead it's very invasive anti-cheat (usually equivalent to rootkitting) and a full on block of Wine. Horrific behavior.
- altairprime 3y ago
  "Never trust the client" applies to human beings, too. Roblox can't trust the clients — human beings — to be adults about gaming. This is completely correct. Cheating is attempted by a percentage of all human adults, in all human games, without exception. Linux has no capability to attest to the server that it is enforcing protections against interference by human beings; on memory, on processing, on graphical outputs, and on human interface inputs. Linux, by design, allows human beings to modify anything they wish to do, up to and including cheating. This is by design, and conflicts directly with any efforts to prevent cheating. The entire invasive anti-cheat / rootkit software trend exists solely due to the lack of secure attestation from chip-to-app. macOS has for many years had the ability to boot software in fully-attested "no modifications are present" mode, chained from the hardware TPM chip, to the signed kernel, the signed OS image, and the signed application itself. Gaming consoles have been doing this for years, and Windows 11 — which requires a TPM chip — will support this as well, same as Windows 10 optionally does in little-known enterprise configurations. So, someday, a few years from now, multiplayer games that are interested in preventing cheating will simply will stop accepting connections from clients who are not able to provide chip-to-app attestation that they're running an unmodified environment, with neither debuggers nor DLL injections permitted. I expect that Valve either has, or will, implement TPM-backed secure attestation for their Steam Deck's default boot-up into Proton (which is currently based on Linux). Once they do so, I expect Roblox would then be willing to consider Linux again. Until then, they have no reason to: Linux, by ethical standpoint and code design, trusts the client. (I recognize that HN is generally hostile to considering how secure attestation might end up widely adopted and demanded by games and other applications, but the ship has already sailed. I’m just trying to yell “iceberg” and get the Linux community to face what’s happening and form a useful strategy in response.)
  - j-bos 3y ago
    >(I recognize that HN is generally hostile to considering how secure attestation might end up widely adopted and demanded by games and other applications, but the ship has already sailed. I’m just trying to yell “iceberg” and get the Linux community to face what’s happening and form a useful strategy in response.) While I appreciate your thoughtful comment, I don't see you offering much in the way of strategy beyond accept the loss of control over your own machine in the one OS that does not inherently hand itself over to third parties.
    - altairprime 3y ago
      > I don't see you offering much in the way of strategy I'm not offering any strategy at all. I don't have one that can stop Linux from hitting the secure attestation iceberg in a few years. As far as I can determine, no one does.
  - 10000truths 3y ago
    You don't need to tamper with the client to cheat. Anything that can scrape a screen and programmatically provide input will get you far and will be difficult for anticheat to reliably detect without hitting false positives. Hell, you might not even need the client, if you can reverse engineer the wire protocol and pretend to be a client.
    - altairprime 3y ago
      > You don't need to tamper with the client to cheat. You do if you're trying to cheat using software alone. Hardware-assisted cheating will continue to occur, but without access to software-only cheats, the total size of the cheating market is considerably less. Anyone could use the Konami code in games that accepted it, because it cost nothing and was easy to remember; someone who doesn't otherwise cheat might do so because it's so easy. But to use a Game Genie cheat, you had to buy a physical object, and look up codes in a manual of cheats, and know that you were cheating, and see that cartridge reminding you each time you play. That awareness stops a lot of people from cheating. Today's cheating opportunity cost is more Konami than Game Genie — no hardware required, just enter your CVV code to enable the cheat.
- ryandrake 3y ago
  Exactly. It's the typical BS excuse game companies have been trying to use for over a decade, and nobody should believe it. Linux gamers are not looking for "support". They want a binary. And a server that doesn't actively thwart them because of their operating system. That's pretty much it. And thanks to cross platform development getting easier and easier, that binary is in more and more cases trivial to produce.
NayamAmarshe 3y ago
Further promoting 'Linux = Hacker' mentality. As if nobody could ever cheat on Windows, which they already do.
gumballindie 3y ago
I honestly believe that companies which dont support linux are made of inexperienced people, be it management or engineers. It’s such a basic requirement that your app whatever it may be should be cross platform.
- rootusrootus 3y ago
  I think it is the opposite. These companies are run by experienced businesspeople who know what platforms have a positive ROI and which do not.
  - kderbyma 3y ago
    sure....and yet....Linux came before many of these 'businesses' and many are long lived beyond the 'bankruptcies'
    - thundermuffin 3y ago
      But does that mean while those businesses existed that Linux would have had a positive affect on their businesses' bottom line? edit: Because the way I interpreted your comment was that not supporting Linux is directly responsible for a lot of gaming companies' downfall.
dmitrygr 3y ago
"blah blah blah...excuse excuse excuse...please hack our ridiculous anticheat^H^H^anti-wine system and release as widely as possible. thanks" OK, will look into it.
- kderbyma 3y ago
  I like your attitude.
autoexec 3y ago
Roblox is making them billions, so I don't buy that supporting a linux client would cost them too much money to be practical. Honestly though, I hope they stay off linux and wine. I hope at least some gamers using linux will spend their time on other games. Maybe they'll find some games that aren't full of lootboxes that give children gambling addictions, other games that aren't designed to fill kids with insecurity and FOMO to pressure them into begging for money to spend on endless microtransactions, other games that aren't filled with massive amounts of advertising, other games that don't profit from child labor, or other games that aren't filled with sexual predators. There are too many great games out there which aren't abusive and hostile to players (both children and adult) for me to be worried about what happens to a scummy game like roblox.
- hammyhavoc 3y ago
  Hot take, but it's a parental failure to let kids communicate in a meaningful way with strangers via games. This is why DS and Wii multiplayer were so interesting, you could play with strangers, but had canned responses for comms for the most part unless people added the friend code of each other, at which point they might be able to voice chat or use text. You could only share a friend code if you could communicate outside of the game. Where there's the means to talk to kids properly, you'll find predators. That's a given. It's also bold to assume that these are children playing Roblox on Linux, when they are in all likelihood actually adults.
  - autoexec 3y ago
    I'm actually okay with parents letting kids communicate with strangers in games so long as it isn't unsupervised. I've known parents who'd play with their kids in MMORPGs without much issue. They might get exposed to some 'adult content', but as long as a responsible adult is around to contextualize provide guidance and stop things before they progress into something harmful it can be good. I agree, canned responses are ideal if the play has to be unsupervised. Friend codes were frustrating though and a ton of people just posted them online where strangers could see them anyway.
  - jbirer 3y ago
imtringued 3y ago
And nothing of value was lost. Roblox is a microtransaction infested hell.
rolph 3y ago
it seems that running an anticheat is greater priority than a linux client {{Even Wine support is difficult because of anti-cheat. As wonderful as it would be to allow Roblox under Wine, the number of users who would take advantage of that is minuscule compared with our other platforms, and it’s not worthwhile if it makes it easy for exploiters to cheat.}} give cheaters a cheat server to cheat on, get harsh on cheating in the no cheat server, get rid of anticheat, loose its problems
- esyir 3y ago
  >it seems that running an anticheat is greater priority than a linux client Yes. Unless you have a better way of mitigating the cheaters, you'll find this to be the preferred choice by almost everyone. In this bubble, people are going to decry the loss of control. But in their market, the problem has gotten so bad, that not doing so would rapidly evaporate their entire product.
StimDeck 3y ago
[dead]

67 points by 0xC0ncord 3y ago

The staff response sounds perfectly reasonable. Maybe you should do something else with your day instead of getting mad at a children's game not supporting an uncommon operating system?

emptysongglass 3y ago

Was it Linus himself who said don't take things away from users? The person they quoted from Roblox staff says they have to support a client they release. But why? Engaging with a community means you don't parent them. Tell the community, “hey we can't support this but if you want to support it yourselves we trust you to be adults about it”. That would be the most positive action to come from this. Instead it's very invasive anti-cheat (usually equivalent to rootkitting) and a full on block of Wine. Horrific behavior.

altairprime 3y ago
"Never trust the client" applies to human beings, too. Roblox can't trust the clients — human beings — to be adults about gaming. This is completely correct. Cheating is attempted by a percentage of all human adults, in all human games, without exception. Linux has no capability to attest to the server that it is enforcing protections against interference by human beings; on memory, on processing, on graphical outputs, and on human interface inputs. Linux, by design, allows human beings to modify anything they wish to do, up to and including cheating. This is by design, and conflicts directly with any efforts to prevent cheating. The entire invasive anti-cheat / rootkit software trend exists solely due to the lack of secure attestation from chip-to-app. macOS has for many years had the ability to boot software in fully-attested "no modifications are present" mode, chained from the hardware TPM chip, to the signed kernel, the signed OS image, and the signed application itself. Gaming consoles have been doing this for years, and Windows 11 — which requires a TPM chip — will support this as well, same as Windows 10 optionally does in little-known enterprise configurations. So, someday, a few years from now, multiplayer games that are interested in preventing cheating will simply will stop accepting connections from clients who are not able to provide chip-to-app attestation that they're running an unmodified environment, with neither debuggers nor DLL injections permitted. I expect that Valve either has, or will, implement TPM-backed secure attestation for their Steam Deck's default boot-up into Proton (which is currently based on Linux). Once they do so, I expect Roblox would then be willing to consider Linux again. Until then, they have no reason to: Linux, by ethical standpoint and code design, trusts the client. (I recognize that HN is generally hostile to considering how secure attestation might end up widely adopted and demanded by games and other applications, but the ship has already sailed. I’m just trying to yell “iceberg” and get the Linux community to face what’s happening and form a useful strategy in response.)
- j-bos 3y ago
  >(I recognize that HN is generally hostile to considering how secure attestation might end up widely adopted and demanded by games and other applications, but the ship has already sailed. I’m just trying to yell “iceberg” and get the Linux community to face what’s happening and form a useful strategy in response.) While I appreciate your thoughtful comment, I don't see you offering much in the way of strategy beyond accept the loss of control over your own machine in the one OS that does not inherently hand itself over to third parties.
  - altairprime 3y ago
    > I don't see you offering much in the way of strategy I'm not offering any strategy at all. I don't have one that can stop Linux from hitting the secure attestation iceberg in a few years. As far as I can determine, no one does.
- 10000truths 3y ago
  You don't need to tamper with the client to cheat. Anything that can scrape a screen and programmatically provide input will get you far and will be difficult for anticheat to reliably detect without hitting false positives. Hell, you might not even need the client, if you can reverse engineer the wire protocol and pretend to be a client.
  - altairprime 3y ago
    > You don't need to tamper with the client to cheat. You do if you're trying to cheat using software alone. Hardware-assisted cheating will continue to occur, but without access to software-only cheats, the total size of the cheating market is considerably less. Anyone could use the Konami code in games that accepted it, because it cost nothing and was easy to remember; someone who doesn't otherwise cheat might do so because it's so easy. But to use a Game Genie cheat, you had to buy a physical object, and look up codes in a manual of cheats, and know that you were cheating, and see that cartridge reminding you each time you play. That awareness stops a lot of people from cheating. Today's cheating opportunity cost is more Konami than Game Genie — no hardware required, just enter your CVV code to enable the cheat.
ryandrake 3y ago
Exactly. It's the typical BS excuse game companies have been trying to use for over a decade, and nobody should believe it. Linux gamers are not looking for "support". They want a binary. And a server that doesn't actively thwart them because of their operating system. That's pretty much it. And thanks to cross platform development getting easier and easier, that binary is in more and more cases trivial to produce.

NayamAmarshe 3y ago

Further promoting 'Linux = Hacker' mentality. As if nobody could ever cheat on Windows, which they already do.

gumballindie 3y ago

I honestly believe that companies which dont support linux are made of inexperienced people, be it management or engineers. It’s such a basic requirement that your app whatever it may be should be cross platform.

rootusrootus 3y ago
I think it is the opposite. These companies are run by experienced businesspeople who know what platforms have a positive ROI and which do not.
- kderbyma 3y ago
  sure....and yet....Linux came before many of these 'businesses' and many are long lived beyond the 'bankruptcies'
  - thundermuffin 3y ago
    But does that mean while those businesses existed that Linux would have had a positive affect on their businesses' bottom line? edit: Because the way I interpreted your comment was that not supporting Linux is directly responsible for a lot of gaming companies' downfall.

dmitrygr 3y ago

"blah blah blah...excuse excuse excuse...please hack our ridiculous anticheat^H^H^anti-wine system and release as widely as possible. thanks" OK, will look into it.

kderbyma 3y ago
I like your attitude.

autoexec 3y ago

Roblox is making them billions, so I don't buy that supporting a linux client would cost them too much money to be practical. Honestly though, I hope they stay off linux and wine. I hope at least some gamers using linux will spend their time on other games. Maybe they'll find some games that aren't full of lootboxes that give children gambling addictions, other games that aren't designed to fill kids with insecurity and FOMO to pressure them into begging for money to spend on endless microtransactions, other games that aren't filled with massive amounts of advertising, other games that don't profit from child labor, or other games that aren't filled with sexual predators. There are too many great games out there which aren't abusive and hostile to players (both children and adult) for me to be worried about what happens to a scummy game like roblox.

hammyhavoc 3y ago
Hot take, but it's a parental failure to let kids communicate in a meaningful way with strangers via games. This is why DS and Wii multiplayer were so interesting, you could play with strangers, but had canned responses for comms for the most part unless people added the friend code of each other, at which point they might be able to voice chat or use text. You could only share a friend code if you could communicate outside of the game. Where there's the means to talk to kids properly, you'll find predators. That's a given. It's also bold to assume that these are children playing Roblox on Linux, when they are in all likelihood actually adults.
- autoexec 3y ago
  I'm actually okay with parents letting kids communicate with strangers in games so long as it isn't unsupervised. I've known parents who'd play with their kids in MMORPGs without much issue. They might get exposed to some 'adult content', but as long as a responsible adult is around to contextualize provide guidance and stop things before they progress into something harmful it can be good. I agree, canned responses are ideal if the play has to be unsupervised. Friend codes were frustrating though and a ton of people just posted them online where strangers could see them anyway.
- jbirer 3y ago

imtringued 3y ago

And nothing of value was lost. Roblox is a microtransaction infested hell.

rolph 3y ago

it seems that running an anticheat is greater priority than a linux client {{Even Wine support is difficult because of anti-cheat. As wonderful as it would be to allow Roblox under Wine, the number of users who would take advantage of that is minuscule compared with our other platforms, and it’s not worthwhile if it makes it easy for exploiters to cheat.}} give cheaters a cheat server to cheat on, get harsh on cheating in the no cheat server, get rid of anticheat, loose its problems

esyir 3y ago
>it seems that running an anticheat is greater priority than a linux client Yes. Unless you have a better way of mitigating the cheaters, you'll find this to be the preferred choice by almost everyone. In this bubble, people are going to decry the loss of control. But in their market, the problem has gotten so bad, that not doing so would rapidly evaporate their entire product.

StimDeck 3y ago

[dead]