5 ms·

Dude. Do you realize how many companies (of all sizes) use things like Trello, putting proprietary information into a free website that can do anything it wants

Dude. Do you realize how many companies (of all sizes) use things like Trello, putting proprietary information into a free website that can do anything it wants with the data? Meetings are barely the tip of the iceberg.

faitswulff 4y ago
In the same vein, it's very funny to me how many people are feeding proprietary information to LLMs without giving a damn about their employer's stance on data privacy.
- hamandcheese 4y ago
  At least with LLMs I get something useful in return.
  - graphe 4y ago
    And that's why I send it info. I used to send Google feedback until I realized it did nothing and stopped being not not evil.
- 8n4vidtmkvmk 4y ago
  My employer is explicitly against us putting stuff into chat gpt. Which is fair. But sad.
- reitanqild 4y ago
  I'm lucky because at the moment I work at a public project that is meant to be public and there is no issue at all with checking an LLM. That said, lately I have favored Kagi FastGPT for two (three) reasons: - I trust Kagi a magnitude more (or even more) than I trust any FAANG company except Apple [1][2]. - It seems to be way more up to date. - (It seems a bit less shy.) [1]: Why? Sound business plan, incentives align. [2]: Does it mean I trust them? No, that would have meant I hadn't learned a thing from WhatsApp. And no, after the photo snooping stunt from Apple a couple of years ago I don't trust them either, I only consider them my best option at the moment.
  - kid64 4y ago
    I'd appreciate it if you could elaborate on where your trust for Kagi comes from? I'm baffled that an ex-GoDaddy employee reselling Bing search results at a premium, with a history of "attracting customers at one price, then increasing the price substantially" (I won't use the legal term, as IANAL), who flags HN posts bringing these facts to the public's attention, has generated so much enthusiasm here. Maybe I missed something?
    - vasco 4y ago
      People that aren't lawyers can use legal terms and give legal advice informally. I just did it for example.
      - kid64 4y ago
        Quite true, but "bait and switch" is an actual legal standard that Kagi likely technically sidestepped, given that (for now) he's still in business. I want to make sure my posts are factual, and I'm not even sure which jurisdiction Kagi operates in, so I won't speculate as to whether the deception technically reached the level of fraud, even though the phrase "bait and switch" is commonly used by laypeople to refer to non-criminal types of deception. Nevertheless, it's fascinating to see "Kagi" and "trust" in the same sentence, and I wonder if this trustworthiness was actually demonstrated somehow. It's more likely we're witnessing some kind of cognitive bias like sunk cost fallacy.
    - reitanqild 4y ago
      > I'd appreciate it if you could elaborate on where your trust for Kagi comes from? As written above: "Sound business plan, incentives align." > reselling Bing search results at a premium, Should I also refuse to deal with ex-Facebook employees? Ex-Google employees? These two companies has created a lot more hassle/stress/worries in my life than Godaddy. > reselling Bing search results at a premium, With the value add he offers it makes it a great deal for me. I don't care if other make money on me, even lots of money, as long as it is a good deal for me. In fact, I actually see it as good sign if people make money on the services they provide me, as it will both incentivize them to continue providing these services as well as encouraging others to start competing providers. > with a history of "attracting customers at one price, then increasing the price substantially" I got in at an really low price and got grandfathered into a deal that is still the best in the market. They have announced the change in a clear way and since I was free to cancel anytime I wanted I cannot complain. Had I been tied to the service somehow I would probably have been annoyed even if the service was the same and the price hike was the same, but I wasn't and I find this to be within expectations for an early stage start up. > who flags HN posts bringing these facts to the public's attention I'm not aware of this. Would you care to link some sources? If not I would just expect it was a totally unreasonable post and some happy customer like me flagged it. (And on a side note: While non YC companies aren't bound to YC standards I really hope most companies who frequent HN stick to the standard of not flagging complaints against themselves.) Edit: > has generated so much enthusiasm here. Maybe I missed something? For some of us, a working search engine can save us significant amount of time every day. After first having had a working search engine for years, then lost it and struggled for years with workarounds, I'd say my enthusiasm is rather understandable. And I know this is not everyone's experience, but with my search patterns, and in the bucket Google has put my account, I get irrelevant results all the time and I get irrelevant and insulting ads all the time.
- raverbashing 4y ago
  yeah, "very funny" as in reckless and ignorant of proprietary data best practices
- donkeyd 4y ago
  My boss used ChatGPT to write a proposal for a utility company recently. OpSec is so awful here it's laughable.
- blagie 4y ago
  Why wouldn't people do this? Employees are there to: - Collect a paycheck - Enjoy their job as much as the employer will let them - Progress in their career In 2023, there is usually zero loyalty in either direction. Much of management is about how you get people who fundamentally don't care about you (beyond the above) to do something in your interest. This goes all the way up to most CEOs, so "your interest" means the CEO's interest (while not being fired by the Board).
  - TonyTrapp 4y ago
    What a bleak view. This is not my experience at all and doesn't match that of most of my friends either. Many have been loyal to their employer for years, and it goes the other way around as well.
    - relativeadv 4y ago
      I was loyal until I was laid-off. Never again.
      - mikecoles 4y ago
        Did you stop dating after the first time you were dumped?
        doubled112 4y ago
        If I read too far into the comments on topics like this, I can’t help but imagine some did. First sign of BS, give up and never try again.
        lapser 4y ago
        This is inherently not the same, though. Sure, companies come in all sorts of shapes and sizes, but a company's first and foremost interest is profit for the shareholder. For a person in a relationship, it's about finding a partner that makes them happy. In addition, you are expendable to a company, whereas people build a relationship and become more and more invested over time. Way more than a company becomes invested in an employee.
kadoban 4y ago
That doesn't mean that either one is a good idea.
bigyikes 4y ago
Not sure why Trello was picked as an example. Trello respects the privacy of its customers. It does not profit from collecting user information. Private company data remains private in Trello, even if the company doesn’t pay. Data is not shared and cannot be freely accessed by employees.
- robinsord 4y ago
  [dead]
- Mistletoe 4y ago
  But how do we know? The pile is to the ceiling with other companies that said the same thing and later we discover that was definitely not the case.
  - spondylosaurus 4y ago
    Trello is owned by Atlassian. Not saying it's impossible, but they'd be shooting themselves in the foot big time if they pulled some shady shit that alienated their corporate user base. I'd imagine they offer Trello for free to entice you to start paying for Jira (or god forbid, Confluence).
    - krageon 4y ago
      Leaking user data (or "anonymising" it and then selling it) doesn't alienate a corporate userbase, because corporations broadly do not care at all that user data gets leaked. Unless it materially affects their income, this is something that is ignored.
      - Mistletoe 4y ago
        I work for a GMP manufacturer of pharmaceuticals and they use the free version of Trello and put tons of proprietary client information in Trello. Each client is a different company and they are never supposed to see data from the other one. It’s an absolutely insane thing to do in my opinion. I’m beginning to see why we are losing clients.
PoignardAzur 4y ago
Well don't do that either (especially if you're an european company with a business the US would like to spy on). Duh.
prepend 4y ago
I use trello but would never give it read access to my mailbox or calendar. There’s a big difference between me choosing what to put in trello (usually trivial data) vs giving an app unlimited read access.
mikehollinger 4y ago
Trello probably has more lawyers, more security professionals, and more QA than “Meeting Swipe Corporation” has employees?
kornhole 4y ago
I guess I should not put any meetings into Outlook either since I cannot see the code.

faitswulff 4y ago

In the same vein, it's very funny to me how many people are feeding proprietary information to LLMs without giving a damn about their employer's stance on data privacy.

hamandcheese 4y ago
At least with LLMs I get something useful in return.
- graphe 4y ago
  And that's why I send it info. I used to send Google feedback until I realized it did nothing and stopped being not not evil.
8n4vidtmkvmk 4y ago
My employer is explicitly against us putting stuff into chat gpt. Which is fair. But sad.
reitanqild 4y ago
I'm lucky because at the moment I work at a public project that is meant to be public and there is no issue at all with checking an LLM. That said, lately I have favored Kagi FastGPT for two (three) reasons: - I trust Kagi a magnitude more (or even more) than I trust any FAANG company except Apple [1][2]. - It seems to be way more up to date. - (It seems a bit less shy.) [1]: Why? Sound business plan, incentives align. [2]: Does it mean I trust them? No, that would have meant I hadn't learned a thing from WhatsApp. And no, after the photo snooping stunt from Apple a couple of years ago I don't trust them either, I only consider them my best option at the moment.
- kid64 4y ago
  I'd appreciate it if you could elaborate on where your trust for Kagi comes from? I'm baffled that an ex-GoDaddy employee reselling Bing search results at a premium, with a history of "attracting customers at one price, then increasing the price substantially" (I won't use the legal term, as IANAL), who flags HN posts bringing these facts to the public's attention, has generated so much enthusiasm here. Maybe I missed something?
  - vasco 4y ago
    People that aren't lawyers can use legal terms and give legal advice informally. I just did it for example.
    - kid64 4y ago
      Quite true, but "bait and switch" is an actual legal standard that Kagi likely technically sidestepped, given that (for now) he's still in business. I want to make sure my posts are factual, and I'm not even sure which jurisdiction Kagi operates in, so I won't speculate as to whether the deception technically reached the level of fraud, even though the phrase "bait and switch" is commonly used by laypeople to refer to non-criminal types of deception. Nevertheless, it's fascinating to see "Kagi" and "trust" in the same sentence, and I wonder if this trustworthiness was actually demonstrated somehow. It's more likely we're witnessing some kind of cognitive bias like sunk cost fallacy.
  - reitanqild 4y ago
    > I'd appreciate it if you could elaborate on where your trust for Kagi comes from? As written above: "Sound business plan, incentives align." > reselling Bing search results at a premium, Should I also refuse to deal with ex-Facebook employees? Ex-Google employees? These two companies has created a lot more hassle/stress/worries in my life than Godaddy. > reselling Bing search results at a premium, With the value add he offers it makes it a great deal for me. I don't care if other make money on me, even lots of money, as long as it is a good deal for me. In fact, I actually see it as good sign if people make money on the services they provide me, as it will both incentivize them to continue providing these services as well as encouraging others to start competing providers. > with a history of "attracting customers at one price, then increasing the price substantially" I got in at an really low price and got grandfathered into a deal that is still the best in the market. They have announced the change in a clear way and since I was free to cancel anytime I wanted I cannot complain. Had I been tied to the service somehow I would probably have been annoyed even if the service was the same and the price hike was the same, but I wasn't and I find this to be within expectations for an early stage start up. > who flags HN posts bringing these facts to the public's attention I'm not aware of this. Would you care to link some sources? If not I would just expect it was a totally unreasonable post and some happy customer like me flagged it. (And on a side note: While non YC companies aren't bound to YC standards I really hope most companies who frequent HN stick to the standard of not flagging complaints against themselves.) Edit: > has generated so much enthusiasm here. Maybe I missed something? For some of us, a working search engine can save us significant amount of time every day. After first having had a working search engine for years, then lost it and struggled for years with workarounds, I'd say my enthusiasm is rather understandable. And I know this is not everyone's experience, but with my search patterns, and in the bucket Google has put my account, I get irrelevant results all the time and I get irrelevant and insulting ads all the time.
raverbashing 4y ago
yeah, "very funny" as in reckless and ignorant of proprietary data best practices
donkeyd 4y ago
My boss used ChatGPT to write a proposal for a utility company recently. OpSec is so awful here it's laughable.
blagie 4y ago
Why wouldn't people do this? Employees are there to: - Collect a paycheck - Enjoy their job as much as the employer will let them - Progress in their career In 2023, there is usually zero loyalty in either direction. Much of management is about how you get people who fundamentally don't care about you (beyond the above) to do something in your interest. This goes all the way up to most CEOs, so "your interest" means the CEO's interest (while not being fired by the Board).
- TonyTrapp 4y ago
  What a bleak view. This is not my experience at all and doesn't match that of most of my friends either. Many have been loyal to their employer for years, and it goes the other way around as well.
  - relativeadv 4y ago
    I was loyal until I was laid-off. Never again.
    - mikecoles 4y ago
      Did you stop dating after the first time you were dumped?
      - doubled112 4y ago
        If I read too far into the comments on topics like this, I can’t help but imagine some did. First sign of BS, give up and never try again.
      - lapser 4y ago
        This is inherently not the same, though. Sure, companies come in all sorts of shapes and sizes, but a company's first and foremost interest is profit for the shareholder. For a person in a relationship, it's about finding a partner that makes them happy. In addition, you are expendable to a company, whereas people build a relationship and become more and more invested over time. Way more than a company becomes invested in an employee.

kadoban 4y ago

That doesn't mean that either one is a good idea.

bigyikes 4y ago

Not sure why Trello was picked as an example. Trello respects the privacy of its customers. It does not profit from collecting user information. Private company data remains private in Trello, even if the company doesn’t pay. Data is not shared and cannot be freely accessed by employees.

robinsord 4y ago
[dead]
Mistletoe 4y ago
But how do we know? The pile is to the ceiling with other companies that said the same thing and later we discover that was definitely not the case.
- spondylosaurus 4y ago
  Trello is owned by Atlassian. Not saying it's impossible, but they'd be shooting themselves in the foot big time if they pulled some shady shit that alienated their corporate user base. I'd imagine they offer Trello for free to entice you to start paying for Jira (or god forbid, Confluence).
  - krageon 4y ago
    Leaking user data (or "anonymising" it and then selling it) doesn't alienate a corporate userbase, because corporations broadly do not care at all that user data gets leaked. Unless it materially affects their income, this is something that is ignored.
    - Mistletoe 4y ago
      I work for a GMP manufacturer of pharmaceuticals and they use the free version of Trello and put tons of proprietary client information in Trello. Each client is a different company and they are never supposed to see data from the other one. It’s an absolutely insane thing to do in my opinion. I’m beginning to see why we are losing clients.

PoignardAzur 4y ago

Well don't do that either (especially if you're an european company with a business the US would like to spy on). Duh.

prepend 4y ago

I use trello but would never give it read access to my mailbox or calendar. There’s a big difference between me choosing what to put in trello (usually trivial data) vs giving an app unlimited read access.

mikehollinger 4y ago

Trello probably has more lawyers, more security professionals, and more QA than “Meeting Swipe Corporation” has employees?

kornhole 4y ago

I guess I should not put any meetings into Outlook either since I cannot see the code.