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Dutch town installs bat-friendly red LED street lights (2018)
- maria1998zx 3y ago[flagged]
- 1letterunixname 3y agoSeems like something Austin would do, but anti-grackle* lighting would be a better use of funds. *Grackles are small corvids that are fearless, loud, and annoying.
- TylerE 3y ago" Despite a currently robust population, a recent study by the National Audubon Society of data from the Christmas Bird Count indicated that populations had declined by 61% to a population of 73 million from historic highs of over 190 million birds.[12] As a result, it is now classified by the IUCN as Near Threatened."
- cyberpunk 3y agoI think they look pretty cool too: https://www.themayor.eu/uploads/image/file/1031/medium_batstreetlights_PR.jpg https://www.themayor.eu/uploads/image/file/1031/medium_batst...
- Kognito 3y agoLooks like something out of a horror movie. Does remind me of the old low-pressure sodium street lighting that was popular in the UK when I was growing up. They’d glow pink for a while when they first turned on, before turning a deep orange.
- petre 3y agoI think sodium lights are more pleasant than red light district themed street lighting.
- seba_dos1 3y agoThey're still around here in Poland. I don't think they get installed anymore, but where they still work fine they're still there. I love them. That's the best night-time lightning out there. Blueish LED lightning is unsettling in comparison. These orange street lights are comfortable to eyes and make the streets look pretty.
- actionfromafar 3y agoLove the sodium lights. The white LEDs here have a blinding spectrum, also are installed so they glare straight into your eyes. Insane.
- throwawayben 3y agobig positive of the LED lights is much less light pollution, but I do wish they could be warmer
- xyzzyz 3y agoSodium light is actually pretty great from light pollution perspective, because it is extremely easy to filter it out, as it is a very narrow band. Astronomers prefer sodium lamps, for example.
- actionfromafar 3y agoDead moths prefer sodium lamps too, or something. Currently, LEDs are kind of stupid, too. The parking lot outside my home has fixtures with builtin LEDs which will last, like forever. So there's no need to make the LEDs replaceable like a bulb had to be. Except they do break (they dim into a faint glow, and the brown out completely) and they have to replace the whole fixture.
- ilyt 3y ago> Dead moths prefer sodium lamps too, or something. Isn't that just because it is very hot so they die? > Except they do break (they dim into a faint glow, and the brown out completely) and they have to replace the whole fixture. That's the big lie of LED industry; we can make ones lasting 50-100k hours... except we won't cos that would put price up by a bit and get out-competed.
- nemo44x 3y agoWe had those in the USA as well. If you kicked the pole hard enough you could make it go out for a few minutes. the light they produced was the best and I wish we still used them, or at least an LED that mimics the orange color.
- rocqua 3y agoThey were common in the Netherlands like 15 years ago.
- bee_rider 3y agoIt looks more Cyberpunk to me. The red/blue contrast is nice IMO.
- fredoralive 3y agoThere are some of these red lights near my parents house (in the UK), and driving through them did definitely give off a ye olde low pressure sodium vibe, albeit a bit redder.
- BoxOfRain 3y agoI have such a core memory of reading in the back of the car by the yellow sodium lights that take the colours out of everything. They're really efficient even by modern standards but the bulbs need replacement much more often than LEDs and they aren't made in the UK any more so they're an expensive niche import. I definitely prefer the warm yellow sodium glow to the harsh 'operating table white' LEDs a lot of councils replaced them with but I think they're finally getting the message now because by the time they got round to my street they used much better warm white LEDs to replace the sodium lights.
- cultureswitch 3y agoCool but very weak
- AlecSchueler 3y agoIt's really all you need for eg walking the dog at night. I've only seen them used on streets where cars are very rare especially in the evening.
- gtirloni 3y agoNot enough in dangerous areas though and no city would choose different lamps based on violence statistics (or they would have to admit certain areas are worse to the wider population that never checks statistics).
- AlecSchueler 3y agoYes they're only used in suitable areas.
- bee_rider 3y agoI wonder if it is partially made up for by the redness of the light. Red light doesn’t mess up your night vision, right?
- throwway120385 3y agoCorrect. It also doesn't interfere with peoples' sleep, which is why it's polite to use the red LED on your headlamp when walking through a campsite at night.
- dmonitor 3y agoit looks like if i walk down that road i’m going to get beaten up by batman.
- trabant00 3y agoLove the name of the file "_PR.jpg". That's all it is.
- ilyt 3y agoThey do but they don't look very effective for actually lighting stuff up
- dudeinjapan 3y agoKavinsky should move there.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- loeg 3y agoBat friendly, human hostile. Not a great trade-off.
- haarts 3y agoHow is it human hostile?
- jessekv 3y agoI hope my town does it too.
- rqtwteye 3y agoWhy human hostile?
- TulliusCicero 3y agoInteresting, but does red lighting not have a different physiological or psychological impact on humans?
- eternalban 3y agoThis is looking forward to the day when bats and machines will peacefully coexist bathed in red light.
- dudeinjapan 3y agoThis would actually be an awesome movie plot. Town adopts red lighting, Dracula moves there, a string of grisly murders ensues, corrupt town bureaucrats refuse to get rid of the red LEDs despite mounting evidence, nightvision/flamethrower-equipped mechs needed to roast out the vampires. Well I guess its not peaceful coexistence.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- lelandfe 3y agoMore or less the plot of Fallen London
- toomuchtodo 3y agoBeneficial for human night vision while not being materially detrimental (wrt physiological or psychological impact). https://www.healthline.com/health/why-not-to-have-red-lights-on-at-night https://www.healthline.com/health/why-not-to-have-red-lights... https://biology.stackexchange.com/questions/2075/does-red-light-preserve-your-night-vision https://biology.stackexchange.com/questions/2075/does-red-li...
- erikerikson 3y agoA whole new meaning for "the red light district", eh Amsterdam? ;D
- 1letterunixname 3y agoMaybe there will be outdoor red window boxes for rent. It's disconcerting to be walking around Amsterdam, turn a corner, and there's a woman dancing in a rented box seeking customers. Perhaps outdoor lighting would offer more warning.
- capableweb 3y ago> It's disconcerting to be walking around Amsterdam, turn a corner, and there's a woman dancing in a rented box seeking customers. Well, to be fair, it's not really widespread all around the city, it's not like you suddenly turn a corner and there is a surprise box right in front of you.
- vasco 3y agoYour comment reads like you've never been to amsterdam if you think you randomly turn a corner and this happens without any awareness that you're in the only few streets where they are. Do you get disconcerted when you go to the beach or when you turn a corner and see a picture of a lady in a bikini in a storefront?
- systemtest 3y agoA member of Bunschotens Christian Workers Party complained about the bright red lights on top of wind turbines. They called it a "big red brothel". After a €100.000 investment they now have a radar+transponder system that shuts the lights off when there isn't an airplane nearby.
- konschubert 3y agoMandatory soon in Germany as well.
- 3y ago
- AngryData 3y agoI don't understand why red light is not the default for night lighting and street lamps and maybe even car headlights. Red light allows you to see while still maintaining your night vision. Blue or white or whatever other color you use will ruin your night vision and only allows you to see what is decently illuminated and anything outside that zone becomes invisible.
- argondonor 3y agoThe blue tint disrupts your sleep cycle and helps keep you awake when driving at night. There's definitely a trade off to be had depending on where these lights are located though.
- TylerE 3y agoRed is also really low contrast, at least at non-night-vision destroying lumen levels.
- Galaxeblaffer 3y agosays what evidence? it's pretty much been debunked for a long time, and the whole premise is apparently based on bad science. I'm pretty sure i read an article here on hn that showed that this whole blue light scare was based on old science with extremely limited sample sizes and extreme exposure. i tried to link to an article from 2016 that still says that it affects sleep because i hastily read the first part. trying to dig up the article i read seems to be hard, but at least I'm still pretty sure that the science is not settled on the matter at all. earlier posted article https://medicalxpress.com/news/2016-04-debunking-digital-eyestrain-blue-myths.html https://medicalxpress.com/news/2016-04-debunking-digital-eye...
- mainframed 3y agoDo you always link to articles supporting your opponents view? (Hint: read the last section of the article)
- 3y ago
- pbhjpbhj 3y agoIt would be nice to get an update from the submitter or some other friendly soul -- are they still used, what reactions and outcomes have they had?
- MonaroVXR 3y agoMy cousin lives in that village, I will need to ask about it. I lived very close by, let me ask it.
- mikepurvis 3y agoIf the initiative was discontinued, it hasn't been in the news: https://news.google.com/search?q=Zuidhoek-Nieuwkoop https://news.google.com/search?q=Zuidhoek-Nieuwkoop
- pbhjpbhj 3y agoI did that search on Google (not limited to "news") before adding my question, I saw stories dated 2019 and 2022 that were almost identical, but the headline on the latter suggested the system "would" (future tense) be installed. I found a webcam, but the night shots were black & white so not much use.
- MonaroVXR 3y agoAsked my cousin, it's a very small village from Nieuwkoop, Nieuwkoop is bigger and is a really small village compared to anything else. Red lights are still there, according to my cousin. Nieuwkoop is a village and local authority.
- 1letterunixname 3y agoSan Jose, CA has/had low pressure sodium lights to reduce light pollution for the benefit of Lick Observatory on Mt. Hamilton since at least the early 1980's. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lick_Observatory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lick_Observatory
- KennyBlanken 3y agoIt's not to reduce light pollution, it's to have all the light pollution be in an exceptionally narrow band that the observatory can then filter out. The reason LED lights are so terrible for astronomers is because although they require much less light to achieve the same visibility, the spectrum is very spread out across multiple peaks, with different manufacturers having different peaks.
- perilunar 3y agoSingle color LEDs are also monochromatic. If they ever need to replace the low pressure sodium lights they could switch to yellow or orange LEDs.
- Zamicol 3y agoThe moon is white. White is the most natural color of light at night. White street lights are probably the most natural approximation. The article doesn't say anything about white light, but does say "Normal street lighting can affect a bat’s flight" but doesn't go into detail. I would love more detail.
- StingyJelly 3y agoDefinitely not the most natural approximation for the number of moons.
- haarts 3y agoThe intensity of moon light is on an entirely different level than street lights.
- 40four 3y agoSounds like a marketing ‘puff piece’ to me. Here, accept this ‘fact’ about red lights, unsubstantiated by any details or references as truth. And you’re going to like it because it supposedly is environmentally friendly. And because it ‘feels good’ you won’t ask any questions and repeat it to friends and family as if it were truth.
- dahwolf 3y agoWhat are you talking about? People exploring nature at night have been using red lights for decades. It's standard equipment. There's no mystery around the reason to use red light either. Nocturnal animals, especially mammals, have far more rods than cones in their eyes. This means they are much more sensitive to brightness than they are to color. Red light in practice is far less bright than white light for the same input energy (a bit more complicated than this) and for quite a few animals they may not see it at all or very poorly. None of this is theorizing, the effect can be readily seen in practice.
- handedness 3y agoThe intensity of a street light is vastly higher. They typically produce 10x-100x more foot-candles versus a full moon on a clear night at a bright latitude. Even under ideal conditions, the earth receives ≤1 lumen per square meter of light from the moon. A single streetlight can project tens of thousands of lumens (or more) over a relatively small area.
- qbasic_forever 3y agoYikes isn't this a nightmare for some colorblind people as the red light will not be clearly visible or provide much contrast for what they see?
- munificent 3y agoThat's not how red-green color blindness works. They are still able to perceive illumination from red lights. They just can't distinguish its hue from green as well as others.
- qbasic_forever 3y agoRight which is why I say it will screw with their contrast. I say this because someone I know who is colorblind can't use a red headlamp when outdoors. A lot of people use red lights to preserve their night vision, but for this person they can't see clearly with it vs. a white light.
- vlz 3y agoDidn’t know this before either, but it seems a common type of colorblindness, protanopia, results from a general insensitivity to red light and also hinders distinguishing between reds and blacks. https://www.colourblindawareness.org/colour-blindness/types-of-colour-blindness/ https://www.colourblindawareness.org/colour-blindness/types-... Small nitpick, I think people use red headlamps to preserve other peoples night vision not their own. Or am I getting that wrong? Wouldn't white light work just as well or even better for for one’s own "vision at night"?
- munificent 3y agoNo, red headlamps help the wearer too. Red light triggers less of an adaptation [1] response than other hues relative to the amount of useful illumination they provide. Red light lets us perceive our surroundings, but doesn't trigger our eyes to close the pupils and become less sensitive to the incoming light. (Blue has the opposite effect, which is why a room lit only by blue light can feel both dim [hard to see] and harsh [unpleasantly bright] at the same time.) [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptation_(eye) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptation_(eye)
- WeylandYutani 3y agoOne of those things that happens when your country is too rich and peaceful.
- elzbardico 3y agoFor now. History is a bitch and never forgives frivolity of late stage empires.
- wiseowise 3y agoThe Netherlands isn’t an empire.
- defrost 3y agoNot any more, true. Pretty sure isles in Indonesia recall the heel of the Dutch East Indies Spice empire.
- elzbardico 3y agoThe whole west is just a big imperialistic blob my friend.
- downvotetruth 3y agoStreet lights without motion sensors on side streets are a waste of electricity and a source of light pollution.
- smolder 3y agoSome people actually argue it's good for safety and particularly reducing crime, but you won't catch me agreeing with this motivation. I'll bet there is some curb appeal/property value angle, too. People seem eager to abandon reason when it comes to their home equity.
- jstarfish 3y agoDarkness is camoflauge, and diminishes situational awareness of victims. It doesn't inherently stop crime, but you and potential witnesses will indisputably have an easier time taking a shitty photo/identifying an assailant after the fact given ambient lighting.
- Doxin 3y agoSo what better than motion-detector lights? It'll highlight any motion!
- smolder 3y agoYeah, I just feel there are better things to be done to address crime than ramping up light pollution. It gives me a similar feeling to those anti-homeless bench designs; an attack on the local symptom which avoids addressing the underlying issue.
- wouldbecouldbe 3y agoReminds me of windmill, they kill lots of bats & birds. If we are working on an environment friendly energy alternative, it feel sweird it kills lots of animals.
- jabroni_salad 3y agoDo you believe that the aviation lights on the turbines is what's killing the birds, as opposed to the other parts of the structure? such as the spinny blade bit?
- wouldbecouldbe 3y agonah I don't mean the lights, I just mean the general effect of technology we use and not always aware of the side effects. I never hear it as an argument against a windpark
- mwattsun 3y agoI spent months underwater on a submarine and we used mostly red lights in the sleeping quarters and the control room. I don't know the theory, but I figured red lights don't produce the momentary blindness of looking at a white light.
- alephxyz 3y agoRed light doesn't overlap as much with the sensitivity of the rod cells in our eyes which are responsible for night vision (see https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:1416_Color_Sensitivity.svg https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:1416_Color_Sensiti...)
- exabrial 3y agoHow does this compare to sodium-vapor lamps? Side note: I recently learned that all of the blue/purple street lights are actually defective LEDs: https://www.businessinsider.com/led-city-streetlights-turning-purple-broken-tech-danger-2022-11 https://www.businessinsider.com/led-city-streetlights-turnin...
- dahwolf 3y agoDutchie here. I haven't see these red LEDs become widespread although I do sometimes see dim green lights on bicycle paths. Another interesting regulation here is related to insulation. Small bats tend to get inside walls and under roof tops. As people are improving insulation en masse, this act may kill or displace these bats. So you have to check for them and make amends if they're there. A common and easy way is to attach a bat home to your house. Some of them are really cool: https://media.s-bol.com/gJJMmEXxPyRr/781x1200.jpg https://media.s-bol.com/gJJMmEXxPyRr/781x1200.jpg I love my little bat friends. During summer months I can time their forage session to the minute. Then I just watch them circle around the garden picking up the mosquitos.
- ChuckNorris89 3y ago>attach a bat home to your house Never knew these were a thing but it's exactly what I expected. Deserves a bat signal.
- doublesocket 3y agoWe built one into the gable end of our roof during renovation: https://imgur.io/Gc42NPn?r https://imgur.io/Gc42NPn?r (and added appropriately bat-wing shaped bargeboards)
- sfvisser 3y agoThat’s a very pretty house! What country do you live if I can ask and is this a common theme?
- doublesocket 3y agoThanks! We live in London. Quite a few properties around in this style. This is Edwardian, built around 1902.
- germinalphrase 3y agoDo bat houses require any kind of cleaning/maintenance?
- wyager 3y agoI have a hope that over the next 20-40 so years, we see extensive commercialization of digital night vision (not the crap you get on amazon, but the solid-state version of high-voltage IITs that the military is currently testing), flat lenses, and AR glasses, such that we get to a point where acceptable-quality night vision is as ubiquitous as acceptable-quality cameras are now on smartphones. One of the big upsides of such an outcome would be that we could ditch things like streetlights entirely, cutting back a great deal of light pollution.
- mgaunard 3y agoDid the vampires take over the Netherlands or something? Why save the bats?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- maria1998zx 3y agoSi
- maria1998zx 3y ago[flagged]
- jbandela1 3y agoBats are a big reservoir for human diseases. Examples include rabies, possibly Covid, and potentially Ebola and other hemorrhagic fevers. Are we sure it is a good idea to encourage bats to be in close proximity to humans?
- isodev 3y agoThe upsides far outweigh the risks. Bats are very good at pest control and even help with dispersing seeds and pollinating plants. My favourite feature of theirs is that they take care of all the mosquitos so no need to buy or use repellent.
- p-e-w 3y ago> The upsides far outweigh the risks. You can't be serious. A disease that originated in bats just killed 15-25 million people and shut the entire world down for two years. > My favourite feature of theirs is that they take care of all the mosquitos I live in a place where bats abound, and I can assure you that they don't.
- herbst 3y agoSometimes it's best to just kill out a species so we can be a tiny bit safer!
- tremon 3y agoMalaria still kills half a million people each year, and has been doing so for centuries. Then there's Dengue fever, West-Nile virus and Zika. I'd say the scales are tipped in favour of keeping around some of those mosquito-killing bats.
- wiseowise 3y ago> You can't be serious. A disease that originated in bats just killed 15-25 million people and shut the entire world down for two years. Maybe someone should not have eaten them? Or maybe let’s extend your logic to humans, see how easy it works?
- 3y ago
- Obscurity4340 3y agoHuman-friendly too. Avoiding bright and cool-colored lighting at night is a must for decent sleep.
- PeterStuer 3y agoUnfortunatly cheap led floodlights have made too many houseowners think they need to light up every tree and wall from below for the entire night. In some streets you could turn of the municipal streetlights entirely and not see a difference.
- patates 3y agoThank god the energy prices are increasing. I'm only half joking.
- contravariant 3y agoThis would have worked, if people were still using incandescent bulbs. Now it only takes a couple of watt to ruin the darkness.
- iruoy 3y agoThese are also used on a highway close to Rotterdam (also The Netherlands). They are only used over a stretch of maybe 100m, but leaves a gap for bats to fly through. Here are some images, unfortunately the article isn't available in English: https://www.rijkswaterstaat.nl/nieuws/archief/2020/12/vleermuisvriendelijke-verlichting-op-de-haringvlietbrug https://www.rijkswaterstaat.nl/nieuws/archief/2020/12/vleerm...