9 ms·

Tipping at self-checkout has customers crying ‘emotional blackmail’

67 points by impish9208 4y ago

JustSomeNobody 4y ago
Table service: I tip (even if service is bad, I tip. I just let them know the service was bad via the percent). Everything else: My discretion. But I'm not obligated one bit.
impish9208 4y ago
https://archive.is/Ob18k https://archive.is/Ob18k
theamk 4y ago
I think the whole "tipping at checkout" thing makes no sense at all. The tip amount depends on quality of service -- a terrible coffee and burnt pastries will means no tip, while delicious food, good service and clean tables means big tip. But how can you tell what the experience is going to be if you just entered the store and only ordering? You can't. That's why you should never tip at the self-order kiosk, but you should drop a cash tip into the tip cup when leaving, if the food and service was good.
- _ZeD_ 4y ago
  >>> a terrible coffee and burnt pastries will means no tip, while delicious food, good service and clean tables means big tip. what? NO a terrible coffee and burnt pastries means REFUND. delicious food, good service and clean tables means WHAT I JUST PAID FOR. did you really pay the normal price of a good (let's say a chair) if it's broken? why do you pay for a substandard service then?
  - Broken_Hippo 4y ago
    In the US, we know that most wait staff are paid far less than minimum wage. The expectation is that tips will make up for the difference. You simply didn't pay for it all. It has been like this for literal decades.
    - harshalizee 4y ago
      No that's not how it works. If the tips don't work out to minimum wage, the employer pays the difference. That's how it is in all the states. Some cities, like Seattle, has a minimum wage at $15 for wait staff. So tipping is on top of that.
      - Broken_Hippo 4y ago
        The only thing you can count on is that the place pays the federal minimum wage and that legally, the place is supposed to make up tips. Tips make wage theft really easy for the employer. Most places aren't Seattle. Most states and cities aren't setting higher minimum wages for wait staff, and most aren't putting the minimum on par with other folks. As you travel through the country, you probably aren't going to see if the folks in the area are paid well or see how much of a jerk you are for not tipping in a country that expects it instead of including wages in the price of goods.
      - SoftTalker 4y ago
        That's interesting. Did Seattle consider banning tipping also when they raised the minimum wage for wait staff? It's probably impossible to ban someone voluntarily leaving extra money on the table.
        harshalizee 4y ago
        Absolutely not. We still have the 15%, 20%, 25% kiosk tip option nonsense.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- eatsyourtacos 4y ago
  >while delicious food, good service and clean tables means big tip. Uh no- that just means the person DID THEIR JOB. If I hire a plumber and he floods my house.. oh ok just no tip. But if it doesn't flood, big tip!! Just fucking pay people a salary and stop dicking around with tipping. It literally exists so companies can offload most of the risk to their employees.
mnd999 4y ago
Yep. No service, no tip. If you never interact with a person throughout the process of buying there is no reason to.
- justinator 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - mnd999 4y ago
    I don’t see the link. YC are not giving out tips. They are expecting a return.
    - justinator 4y ago
      They are expecting a return across all investments, but most will be failures.
  - ye-olde-sysrq 4y ago
    What? This seems like a complete non-sequitur. How is VC investing in nascent companies - the primordial act of capital formation - comparable to tipping (or not) someone at a self-checkout?
    - justinator 4y ago
      The comparison is asking for a tip before service; which isn't TOO far off from wanting a profit before an idea proves itself in the market. Except the latter is about a dollar; while the latter is tens of thousands.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- tomrod 4y ago
  My fear on not tipping beforehand is my food being contaminated. It's not an uncommon fear, I've found.
Swizec 4y ago
At the Ferry Building in SF there is a grocery store that also has a cofee shop counter. They use the same POS system for checkout as for coffee/pastries. The grocery side asks for tip on checkout. You bring the groceries, they ring you up, you have to bag them yourself. Then they ask for tip. Makes me furious. “If you could just answer the quick question on screen …” And of course the default options are 15, 20, 25. I’m even starting to see 17, 21, 30 in some places.
- celeritascelery 4y ago
  There is nothing more passive aggressive than the phrasing “if you could answer the question on the screen…”. You don’t even have the gall to ask for a tip directly, but you still expect one. If they will be bold enough to look me in the face and ask for a tip, I will give them one, But otherwise no.
  - ip26 4y ago
    Honestly, the clerk didn’t put that screen in, they may be just as abashed as we are furious. I don’t envy their position. I doubt point of sale tips even go to the clerk.
- itronitron 4y ago
  Tempting to bring out a calculator at checkout, especially if there is a long line, and start doing the math on the various tip percentage options, then ring for assistance.
- ip26 4y ago
  I’m even starting to see 17, 21, 30 in some places I’m hopeful this kind of naked greed will finally push it all over the edge.
noisy_boy 4y ago
Do I get to pay less if the service is crappy? If no, then why should I get pressurized to pay more, even when the service is just what I expected? My appreciation for the great service will be reflected in my repeat patronage. Obviously there can be exceptions e.g. if I don't have any plans to revisit, say when I am traveling or someone going wayyy above and beyond their role etc. My company pays my bonus when I have done my job very well and they have turned a profit. Why aren't the service sector's employers doing the same for their employees?
- chapium 4y ago
  Simply, its not a bonus and its not for service. Its so the employer can pay less when business is slow.
  - noisy_boy 4y ago
    Correct, and I get that. I'm just pointing out that logically tips are bonuses and they should also be paid by the employers, on top of a living wage, as is the norm in general outside service sector. It should not be paid by the customers.
yamtaddle 4y ago
I've started favoring cash when buying take-out, if paying in person, for that reason. Damn "tip" field showing up all kinds of places tips were never expected before. What the inappropriate tip screens could do to be a whole lot more like how the world operated just a few years ago, is to add a "round up to next dollar as tip" option and make that the most prominent. However, are employers using the expanded presence of tip lines & prompts as an excuse to pay workers less, somehow? Seems possible, in which case now I am kinda a dick if I'm not tipping. Wish we'd get rid of the whole damn thing, the anti-tipping movement in the early 20th century had it right. ... OTOH I used the tip % buttons on the CC reader as a way to give my favorite struggling-but-excellent pastry shop extra money when the owner was having such a hard time that she had zero employees. The single time it's been kinda nice to have them.
- granshaw 4y ago
  You’re not the dick, the employer is.
- snarf21 4y ago
  But couldn't you have also just given her an extra $20 without it being an integrated and ingrained experience?
  - yamtaddle 4y ago
    Yeah, and a tip jar would have done the trick, too. But just handing her extra money would be a bit socially weird—having the tip button or a jar or something takes that factor out of it.
- ghostpepper 4y ago
  How does an employer being a dick make you a dick?
- hosh 4y ago
  There was this one time, my Australian friend told me he finally gets tipping. Tipping is not the custom in Austrailia, yet having visited the US and travelled around the world for years, tipping mystified him. He told me he finally got it when he used tipping to establish better service for future interactions. Unpacking it, it’s really about the relationship. What makes those tip fields feel like an imposition and a violation of social customs is because it shifts this from developing a personal connection with a service provider into something transactional. I’d say that, if you feel it is like emotional blackmail, it probably is — the business is exploiting both worker and customer. If you feel that personal connection and sense of community, then tipping is a way of helping support the well-being of someone in the community.
dsr_ 4y ago
Surely a tip at a self-checkout station comes in the form of a discount?
_ZeD_ 4y ago
I'm not american, and when I got to new york for some holidays I just found how bad is the tipping status here. It's awful. It's basically a legalized bribe.
- droopyEyelids 4y ago
  It's worse than a legalized bribe. It makes you complicit in a system of exploitation where owners pay workers below what the worker needs to survive, and if you -the customer!- don't make up the shortfall you're responsible of the immiseration of the worker.
- ahoy 4y ago
  It's not good for anyone. It's bad for customers, who feel squeezed at every little transaction. It's bad for employees, whose income depends on customers giving into that squeeze. An acquaintance of mine runs a coffee shop in Brooklyn. She pays her staff a higher hourly wage, doesn't accept tips, and prices things accordingly. It's a much better system, and it should be the law
- BurningFrog 4y ago
  Bribe dictionary definition: > persuade (someone) to act in one's favor, typically illegally or dishonestly, by a gift of money or other inducement That's not it.
  - tomrod 4y ago
    If the tip impacts the service level, rather than the service level defining an expected tip, then it is more or less dishonest.
ycommentator 4y ago
That is offensively nonsensical. Tipping who, for what? Apart from which, I just did all the work. Where is MY tip?!
electrondood 4y ago
Tips are for table service. That's it. When you go to Starbucks, ask for a product, then make payment for that product, and the little POS machine basically says "hey, can we have extra money?" it's systematized panhandling.
- ortusdux 4y ago
  They also ask you to tip before you've been served.
- SeanAnderson 4y ago
  What about delivery - GrubHub / Amazon Fresh?
  - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
    That's table service (more or less).
  - pavon 4y ago
    I've gotten to the point where I will flat out boycott any new service that expects tips. Tipping at restaurants is deeply ingrained into our culture and will be hard to change, but the ever expanding set of places where tipping is now requested/expected is ridiculous. New startups whose business model is to pay their employees shit and then guilt customers into tipping will never get my business.
- throwway120385 4y ago
  Traditionally you would tip baristas because making a really nice latte or cappuchino is an art form that requires a lot of skill. Given that Starbucks lattes are almost always mediocre and range from bland to bland with burned coffee the only thing that's really left to tip on there is how nice people are and whether or not they do extra things to go above and beyond.
- hnbear 4y ago
  This is where my own internal rubric for tipping starts to break down. The delineation between "sat at a table and got service", and "payed at a counter to be handed something prepared" has a middle grey area for things that are made on-demand for me, by someone behind the counter, to my specification. - In your Starbucks example if they grab a pre-bottle something is that service? - Pulling a latte from a latte machine? - Making espresso on a complicated espresso machine I can't understand, using the beans I specified? - Doing the whole foam art thing, with more complex instructions on how I like the coffee? (To be clear, I'm not a coffee person, but I'm aware there's a complexity to the production of an espresso). A good barista can put in more effort, skill, knowledge into the coffee than a poured cup of coffee from a Mr. Coffee at the diner. Similarly, I've eaten in plenty of diners where you order at the counter and food is delivered. Is that service? What if I carry my food to the table but they bring drinks? Or I forgot something and they deliver it My point here isn't that I disagree about it being systematized panhandling. I think it's awful. But, I often find it hard to identify where to draw the line.
bitshiftfaced 4y ago
The nice thing about inflation is that my $1 "guilt tax" doesn't aggravate me as much anymore for drive-thru and 30 second counter transactions.
poutine 4y ago
Regardless of POS changes, my algorithm has not changed: if (Pay after eating || delivery of food) then tip else notip Suck it POS vendors.
throw310822 4y ago
For me, tipping is always emotional blackmail. When you're expected to pay an indeterminate sum above the official price of the service, there's always an implicit pressure to leave more rather than less for fear of looking stingy. Which is why the "unofficial, but official" percentage of tips always goes up. If anything, at a self service it's easier to tip 0, as no one is looking at you while you do it.
maerF0x0 4y ago
I want to see an end to tipping in America. I also want to see servers paid at least a living wage, and the excellent ones to earn more (perhaps by having to move upscale where wages ought to be higher reflecting more skill and effort) Is there a viable path forward? Is there some way I can support it happening?
- vsareto 4y ago
  Probably not. Prices for just decent places are already ridiculous since the pandemic, and they would use salaries as an excuse to raise prices further or to fight it. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the revenue goes to the owners but they still whine about tight margins though.
  - idiotsecant 4y ago
    This is already tested. There are state minimum wages well above the average that don't see wild price spikes. It turns out owners can in fact pay a higher minimum wage without substantially increasing prices, they just prefer not to.
    - maerF0x0 4y ago
      Any chance of a source. If true this is great information!
- idiotsecant 4y ago
  Yes, raise the minimum wage to something that a person can live on.
  - maerF0x0 4y ago
    I could get behind that with a carveout for inexperienced folks and qualified businesses which essentially are very small businesses that are provably low profit (ie the owners/share holders are not seeing massive return). Really roughly the idea being: Minimum wage is now = ((Median 1bed room monthly Rent in zipcode)*.3333) / 160 and will be updated annually. (.3333 of income must pay for a 1 bedroom house) If you're under 18 and have less than 1 year's experience you can accept earning 50% of minimum wage to get the experience. If your business has less than $500k of revenue, and no one is paid more than 2x anyone else. Then you can pay as low as 50% of minimum wage. I'm curious to hear from others how such a system would break?
lastofthemojito 4y ago
Tipping has officially gotten out of control. Just saw the other day that some Apple Store employees want to start asking for tips: https://daringfireball.net/linked/2023/05/04/apple-store-maryland-union-tips https://daringfireball.net/linked/2023/05/04/apple-store-mar...
- ghostpepper 4y ago
  So on a $3500 laptop purchase a 10% tip would be $350 for the genius who radio'd to the back to have someone else bring the product out, and then punched it in correctly on the pin pad? If we generously assume 5 minutes of work, that works out to an hourly rate of $4200/hour.
  - Ekaros 4y ago
    And on other side, if I were to spend hour with sales clerk and in the end get the cheapest possible item, and pay something generous like 30%. How much would that end up being?
  - bityard 4y ago
    Did you click the link? > The workers’ negotiators also want Apple to adopt a tipping system, letting patrons offer gratuities in increments of 3%, 5% or a custom amount for in-store credit-card transactions. Not 10%, unless you have money to burn/launder. But also: > “All monies collected through this manner would be dispersed to members of the bargaining unit biweekly based on any hours worked.” So as in most places these days, by tipping you're not rewarding the employee who provided good service, your tip gets spread out among all employees whether they are working hard or hardly working. Which as far as I am concerned, entirely defeats the purpose of the tipping system. I have no reason to buy anything from an Apple store but if I did, and someone provided exceptional service beyond what they were expected to, I would not tip them. I would instead saunter down to the Starbucks pagoda, buy a gift card, and then hand it directly to the person.
- _boffin_ 4y ago
  that to me like a throwaway during negotiations between the union and Apple.
corey_moncure 4y ago
I took my wife out to a fancy steakhouse over the weekend and remembered what "service" is supposed to be. Our waiter poured my wine, cut up our steak table side and served us, cracked pepper over our salad, went above and beyond in every way to ensure that we were comfortable and satisfied. I gladly tipped him 20% on $300 and would do so again. On the other hand, I left $10 on top of a $50 takeout order at a local Italian place and the bored, empty-handed young waitress just sat there watching me while I struggled out the door with pizza boxes and a couple bags. I resented her for her smugness and entitlement. Plus the order was wrong, as I found out later. Why on Earth am I expected to hand money over to people who are doing literally nothing but processing my credit card for payment? I've worked in food service, where I learned how hard it is and to never disparage employees at the point of service, but I cannot wrap my head around this selfish mindset of sit there and do nothing and expect people to hand over cash.
- prottog 4y ago
  I always understood the rule as unless there's food being brought to you at a table with tableside service, you are not to tip. Feel free not to leave the $10 next time for your takeout order.
  - polski-g 4y ago
    If I have to wait in line, I do not tip.
    - ricardobayes 4y ago
      As a programmer, I threw an exception here. If you have to wait in line to be seated for table service, what do you do?
      - AstralStorm 4y ago
        A proper restaurant will have a literal waiter (the name of the job comes from that) ask you to be seated reasonably quickly anyway. And if it's overfilled, inform you of that.
dmbche 4y ago
Somewhat off topic, but did you know tipping is though to have been born out of white americans wanting to pay racialised workers less - since only whites were getting tipped. Just never moved away from it. https://time.com/5404475/history-tipping-american-restaurants-civil-war/ https://time.com/5404475/history-tipping-american-restaurant...
stalfosknight 4y ago
People need to stop feeling guilty entering in $0 tips when there was no service involved.
BurningFrog 4y ago
Who builds the app that tracks this, so I can make informed decisions before going?
Ekaros 4y ago
So if I ever go to USA, which I will never do. How much I have to tip the border agents? What about if I interact with the police? Or end up in jail and being prosecuted? Does the prosecutor need to be tipped what about judge? They are all providing personalised services to me so I understand it is always expected to be tipped in those cases? What about security guards? Should I hand out money to them if I see them while visiting some place like a mall?
- 908B64B197 4y ago
  If you do any of that, you might get to stay for a little longer than you expected!
  - Ekaros 4y ago
    So how much is it per day to each prison guard?
    - 908B64B197 4y ago
      In case you aren't trolling (perhaps you are from a country with a culture of Baksheesh for instance [0]) Tipping a government official/government worker will land you in big trouble and is a punishable crime. Trying to bribe a security agent at the mall will get you funny looks and might get the police called on you. Tipping is pretty much only for services to consumers like delivery or at a restaurant or barber or taxi. If a government service has any fee these will be clearly posted somewhere official and you will be charged the exact amount. Note that prices typically exclude sales tax, but the receipt will show the breakdown for you and the percentages are, again, available from an official source. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baksheesh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baksheesh
maerF0x0 4y ago
Adding an anecdote I've heard, supposedly these tips and charity options are in some cases being used to test price sensitivity in the market. If your coffee was $5 and that saturated your purchasing power, you wont tip or donate. But if you have additional purchasing power untapped you are more likely to, or more likely to choose a higher than average amount. This data helps the business create a price curve that allows them to increase prices without fear of lower demand. Something to consider the next time you tip electronically. I don't think the data collection game is viable with cash, even the IRS cannot keep on top of it.
- idiotsecant 4y ago
  That is diabolically clever. I always try to cash tip so the worker doesn't see it on taxes (unless they choose to) but this is another big reason to cash tip only.
AnimalMuppet 4y ago
Who did the work at self checkout? Oh, hey, I did. So shouldn't I be the one getting the tip?
didacticBuffalo 4y ago
Even worse is "pre-tipping" like in UberEats. As you place an order you're asked if you'd like to tip your driver before you get your delivery. I typically add 10% cuz if i don't my Uber rating goes down and i get less rides when i need them so it's more than blackmail. It's extortion. As well as a reason not to have one-app-to-rule-them-all It infuriates me when i add a tip and the driver f ups. I've had the wrong food delivered. Or delivered 20 minutes after the far end of a delivery estimate window. Uber will refund you on the food that didn't get to you but don't refund your tip.
- ricardobayes 4y ago
  I haven't used this service, but the food delivery guy can rate you and that also affects your other Uber rating? What the heck? How does that make sense?
  - mindslight 4y ago
    The new economy is like the scene in The Dark Knight where The Joker breaks a pool cue in half and throws the pieces to two henchmen to fight it out. Uber has just figured out how to get the customer in on the action. Remember when one of the selling points of early Uber was the complete lack of tipping? The dynamic OP describes seems like a great reason to steer clear of UberEats, not that we need another one.
sys32768 4y ago
I tipped my local coffee shop three dollars, drove away with my three drinks, then discovered later they had messed up all my drinks. That was humiliating. On the other hand, somebody at our local pizza joint recently made the most perfect version of our favorite pizza we've had yet. When it was time to pay, I tipped extra and wrote a note complimenting the worker who made our pizza. That felt good and just.
disruptiveink 4y ago
As a non-US citizen/resident, I can't wait for Americans to finally riot against tipping, just so they stop doing it abroad. A shame that it had to take comical proportions domestically for people to start questioning it. Americans tipping abroad while on holidays ruins service for everyone that isn't American – as a non-American you are guaranteed to get worse service than a American in touristy places (and sometimes, to add insult to injury, your own local places), because an American tourist will just insist on tipping 20% or more in places where maybe 1€ = good tip and 2€ = great tip. It doesn't matter if they repeatedly get told not to do it, American tourists keep insisting on doing it to "be nice". The result is that hospitality obviously optimises for being extra nice to Americans and treat everyone else with apathy. And because you only tip at the end, it doesn't even matter if you were willing to tip like an American, you're going to get the bad treatment (and by then when the bill arrives any motivation to tip well is gone – a classic catch-22). You're basically discriminated for not looking and speaking with an American accent everywhere you go as a tourist. Please, inform yourselves of tipping cultures when you travel and do it appropriately. Also take in consideration a lot of "this is how much you should tip" guides online are horrible wrong and err on the side of overstating the tip (no idea why – possibly not to offend US sensitivities?). You'd think with all the "cultural appropriation" and "cultural imperialism" awareness these days people would be better in not imposing toxic parts of their culture elsewhere, but here we are.
- yowzadave 4y ago
  > hospitality obviously optimises for being extra nice to Americans and treat everyone else with apathy Maybe this is how the tipping practice got started in the first place?
  - disruptiveink 4y ago
    Ignoring for a moment the 20% premium, the issue is that in the US, (mostly) everyone is American. Unless you're a regular, hospitality has no way of telling whether you're a good tipper or a bad tipper. There may be "tells" or "feelings", but that's the extent of it. So when you walk into a place, you're going to get the same service as the next guy. Your logic may track for regulars (a repeat customer may tip to get nicer service next time), but that's not the phenomenon that I was describing. If you're in a touristy place and you're not American, if the place in particular has seen enough Americans, they're going to treat you badly because in their mind, you're taking up the table of an American tourist which would give them a lot of free money for doing the same work. I, as a non-American tourist who has never been in that particular place before, have no way of opting out of the "bad service mode" and opting into the "American service mode" – I obviously don't have an American accent. I obviously can't state "I'm going to tip you 20%!" at the beginning of the service – I'd look like a deranged person.
Fernicia 4y ago
Tipping in the U.S. is such a travesty. This is painfully apparent in bars. Compared with, say, Ireland where a barman can take multiple orders at once, batch them, then quickly take payment via a single contactless tap. In the U.S. you have to "open a tab", the bartender has to add drinks to your tab, then when you want to pay, the bartender has to print off the tab, have you sign it, do mental maths, and finally write down the total bill. I'm sure there's also extraneous labour when it comes to reading the signed amounts and inputting them into the billing system. It also lends itself to fraud. What's stopping a bartender adding a few bucks here and there on tipped amounts. Or a card owner disputing a tip they genuinely gave. The idea that a bar which has scanned your card, can then withdraw any amount it wishes at a later date is totally backwards and should be stopped. I am convinced that if a bar were to switch to the non-US system, then the increase in order speed and reduction in prices would mean no lost profit for the bar, and happier customers.
- ipnon 4y ago
  Which apps do the bars in Ireland use for payment?
  - Fernicia 4y ago
    It's just a contactless card machine. You can use apple pay, google pay, your card's NFC chip. Anything works.
ipnon 4y ago
Tipping is a classic prisoner’s dilemma. Everybody stops tipping, we all win. You stop tipping, and you lose. One thing is for certain, no amount of think pieces in major newspapers will change the status quo. There needs to be a different solution, maybe technical, in a reasonable direction.
catiopatio 4y ago
I’ve always assumed that tips are for any non-professional personal service where the output quality can vary massively depending on care and/or attention to detail, and which requires a degree of trust in the service provider — whether or not there’s actually “table service” involved, or a human being directly handling your money. Tipping is effective at encouraging that care and attention to detail, and shows a degree of respect for someone doing you a service. I tip movers, my house cleaner, the valet, hotel maid service, bartenders, and anyone (at a non-chain restaurant) involved in directly preparing, serving, or delivering my food — including take-out. I’m okay with this. I think the US’ tipping culture produces a better overall level of service than we’d have otherwise — barring some massive shift in our underlying culture.
- PrimeMcFly 4y ago
  > I think the US’ tipping culture produces a better overall level of service than we’d have otherwise I think the opposite is true. I've had better service in the UK and New Zealand and pretty much any country that doesn't have US tipping culture. I could see it being true for high-end restaurants and offerings though, maybe.
orev 4y ago
I was just at an airport and bought a pre-packed sandwich from the refrigerator, and the POS was setup to ask for tips! I have sympathy for workers at places like this, as I know they don’t get paid much, but this is probably the last straw for me. When I see stuff like this, it increases my aggravation level, and I’m sure it has the same effect on others. Retail workers already get treated badly by customers, and this could easily start pushing some people other the edge. It seems like we’re entering the era of the “aggravation economy”, where the new strategy seems to be to annoy the hell out of people as much as possible so they pay to make it stop. This has been perfected by tech companies for years, and now seems to be spilling over into the real world.
- hotpotamus 4y ago
  Without getting into a whole thing about automating away peoples' jobs, buying pre-packaged sandwiches from a machine is a technical challenge that I believe was solved in the 19th century and there was a little automat fad surrounding it. Certainly it's how I buy lunch on many a day when I don't want to have to deal with social interaction.
alexaholic 4y ago
I think tipping incentivises managers to lowball workers. I'm not buying into that "service not included" bullshit. How about you just... include it, and start paying at least the minimum wage if not more? I get tipping when someone goes out of their way or whatever but, frankly, pushing cups and plates around rarely sparks a conversation. And oftentimes it's just that. I'm from an European country where tipping is expected to the point where they give you a surprised stare and they might mutter something. About a year ago I stopped tipping and stopped caring about such expectations. It's none of my business.
Simulacra 4y ago
I've reached tipping burnout. I actively avoiding going places where I would be expected to tip. Everywhere else, picking up food, I tip zero.
PrimeMcFly 4y ago
Tipping is a backwards system, honestly. No real minimum wage laws, so pass what should be the employer cost on to the customer? It's even crappier for workers when bosses dictate that tips should be pooled or whatever. Honestly it should be more regulated and the minimum wage should be ate least reasonable.
- mindslight 4y ago
  > It's even crappier for workers when bosses dictate that tips should be pooled or whatever. Your comment made me think - I wonder if a way of reigning in this weaponization of tipping culture would be state laws for transparency of where tips actually go. Let's say anywhere that solicits tips must clearly post how that money is divided up (on the menu, tip jar, POS terminal, prominent signs, etc). Whether it all goes to your server, whether it's pooled between servers, pooled with the whole staff, whether any doesn't go to employees for any reason, etc. I'd think the servers who actually benefit from tips (individually tipped at nice places) would be fine with this, while the places where it's become a general guilt-tax that just gets averaged out and used as a substitute for wages would be laid bare.
  - PrimeMcFly 4y ago
    I agree with you that tipping transparency would be good, but honestly they should just raise the minimum wage and stop worker exploitation, that's a much better solution.
    - mindslight 4y ago
      While I agree with the thrust of your comment, I don't think that's a solution to tipping - the same dynamic would still exist, because it's effectively a form of differentiated pricing based on how much you can guilt each customer.
      - PrimeMcFly 4y ago
        I don't understand. Minimum wage as a reasonable price would eliminate tipping altogether in most low-end to medium rate restaurants - the means through which they guilt the customer would be eliminated. People would still try, and it would take a while for the culture to dissipate entirely, but most people would eventually realize there would be no reason to tip and so wouldn't.
sheepybloke 4y ago
Pre-tipping is also getting out of hand. I was looking at doing a train dining experience in Colorado for my wife's birthday, and they automatically added in a 20% gratuity to your bill. At that point, it's not actually tipping, that's just a huge fee.
eappleby 4y ago
There needs to be a Supreme Court ruling that outlaws tying wages to tips received. This is what caused the mess we are in now. Tipping is rife with racial and sexual discrimination[1] and contributes to wage instability and other problems, but it is a prisoner's dilemma situation because if one company increases their prices to incorporate tips, but another does not, the prices of the company that increased their prices will appear artificially high and will lose customers. The few companies that tried no-tipping had to end it[2]. Until systemic changes are implemented, I think the amount people tip should not be tied to service received to avoid bias (i.e. if you generally tip restaurant servers 20%, then tip all servers 20% and if you receive better or worse service do not tip more or less, but rather change the frequency that you are a patron). For tips requested for non-service interactions (e.g. self-checkouts), it is probably better not to tip so that it does not proliferate the problem. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/05/black-restaurant-workers-received-less-in-tips-than-others-during-pandemic.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/05/black-restaurant-workers-rec... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/20/dining/danny-meyer-no-tips.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/20/dining/danny-meyer-no-tip...
- gnicholas 4y ago
  What would be the legal reasoning for such a SCOTUS opinion? It seems like you're hinting at equal protection, but I'm not clear how you'd tie together the necessary pieces. Even assuming the composition of the court changed to be more friendly to living constitution arguments, I'm just not seeing this. Can you spell this out a bit more?
gnicholas 4y ago
I'm almost glad they're doing this on self-checkout now, since it clearly demonstrates that they will ask for tips even when there is no actual reason whatsoever. Before this, you always had to wonder if perhaps you were being unreasonable in not tipping someone who merely rang up a purchase for you. After all, if the machine is prompting for a tip, then perhaps a tip is appropriate in this circumstance? But now it's clear that they will ask for tips even when it's absolutely unwarranted. So you can now decide for yourself where the 'line' is on tipping, since "did the machine suggest a tip?" is no longer an accurate heuristic.
Scottn1 4y ago
This is getting worse. I was at Jimmy Johns the other day and their POS now blatantly makes it difficult to NOT tip. It doesn't give you a clear option to choose $0, only the three standard options (from memory) of 15,18 or 20%. This on top of my turkey sandwich w/cheese added and chips + drink that came out to like a ridiculous $15. I was stuck staring at the machine trying to find out how to NOT tip right in front of the register person. I eventually just decided to hit the red button that I thought was canceling the order and it went on to next screen for payment. I was so aggravated in being manipulated into feeling like a cheap non-caring ass I might not go there anymore.

67 points by impish9208 4y ago

Table service: I tip (even if service is bad, I tip. I just let them know the service was bad via the percent). Everything else: My discretion. But I'm not obligated one bit.

impish9208 4y ago

https://archive.is/Ob18k https://archive.is/Ob18k

theamk 4y ago

I think the whole "tipping at checkout" thing makes no sense at all. The tip amount depends on quality of service -- a terrible coffee and burnt pastries will means no tip, while delicious food, good service and clean tables means big tip. But how can you tell what the experience is going to be if you just entered the store and only ordering? You can't. That's why you should never tip at the self-order kiosk, but you should drop a cash tip into the tip cup when leaving, if the food and service was good.

_ZeD_ 4y ago
>>> a terrible coffee and burnt pastries will means no tip, while delicious food, good service and clean tables means big tip. what? NO a terrible coffee and burnt pastries means REFUND. delicious food, good service and clean tables means WHAT I JUST PAID FOR. did you really pay the normal price of a good (let's say a chair) if it's broken? why do you pay for a substandard service then?
- Broken_Hippo 4y ago
  In the US, we know that most wait staff are paid far less than minimum wage. The expectation is that tips will make up for the difference. You simply didn't pay for it all. It has been like this for literal decades.
  - harshalizee 4y ago
    No that's not how it works. If the tips don't work out to minimum wage, the employer pays the difference. That's how it is in all the states. Some cities, like Seattle, has a minimum wage at $15 for wait staff. So tipping is on top of that.
    - Broken_Hippo 4y ago
      The only thing you can count on is that the place pays the federal minimum wage and that legally, the place is supposed to make up tips. Tips make wage theft really easy for the employer. Most places aren't Seattle. Most states and cities aren't setting higher minimum wages for wait staff, and most aren't putting the minimum on par with other folks. As you travel through the country, you probably aren't going to see if the folks in the area are paid well or see how much of a jerk you are for not tipping in a country that expects it instead of including wages in the price of goods.
    - SoftTalker 4y ago
      That's interesting. Did Seattle consider banning tipping also when they raised the minimum wage for wait staff? It's probably impossible to ban someone voluntarily leaving extra money on the table.
      - harshalizee 4y ago
        Absolutely not. We still have the 15%, 20%, 25% kiosk tip option nonsense.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
eatsyourtacos 4y ago
>while delicious food, good service and clean tables means big tip. Uh no- that just means the person DID THEIR JOB. If I hire a plumber and he floods my house.. oh ok just no tip. But if it doesn't flood, big tip!! Just fucking pay people a salary and stop dicking around with tipping. It literally exists so companies can offload most of the risk to their employees.

mnd999 4y ago

Yep. No service, no tip. If you never interact with a person throughout the process of buying there is no reason to.

justinator 4y ago
[flagged]
- mnd999 4y ago
  I don’t see the link. YC are not giving out tips. They are expecting a return.
  - justinator 4y ago
    They are expecting a return across all investments, but most will be failures.
- ye-olde-sysrq 4y ago
  What? This seems like a complete non-sequitur. How is VC investing in nascent companies - the primordial act of capital formation - comparable to tipping (or not) someone at a self-checkout?
  - justinator 4y ago
    The comparison is asking for a tip before service; which isn't TOO far off from wanting a profit before an idea proves itself in the market. Except the latter is about a dollar; while the latter is tens of thousands.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
tomrod 4y ago
My fear on not tipping beforehand is my food being contaminated. It's not an uncommon fear, I've found.

Swizec 4y ago

At the Ferry Building in SF there is a grocery store that also has a cofee shop counter. They use the same POS system for checkout as for coffee/pastries. The grocery side asks for tip on checkout. You bring the groceries, they ring you up, you have to bag them yourself. Then they ask for tip. Makes me furious. “If you could just answer the quick question on screen …” And of course the default options are 15, 20, 25. I’m even starting to see 17, 21, 30 in some places.

celeritascelery 4y ago
There is nothing more passive aggressive than the phrasing “if you could answer the question on the screen…”. You don’t even have the gall to ask for a tip directly, but you still expect one. If they will be bold enough to look me in the face and ask for a tip, I will give them one, But otherwise no.
- ip26 4y ago
  Honestly, the clerk didn’t put that screen in, they may be just as abashed as we are furious. I don’t envy their position. I doubt point of sale tips even go to the clerk.
itronitron 4y ago
Tempting to bring out a calculator at checkout, especially if there is a long line, and start doing the math on the various tip percentage options, then ring for assistance.
ip26 4y ago
I’m even starting to see 17, 21, 30 in some places I’m hopeful this kind of naked greed will finally push it all over the edge.

noisy_boy 4y ago

Do I get to pay less if the service is crappy? If no, then why should I get pressurized to pay more, even when the service is just what I expected? My appreciation for the great service will be reflected in my repeat patronage. Obviously there can be exceptions e.g. if I don't have any plans to revisit, say when I am traveling or someone going wayyy above and beyond their role etc. My company pays my bonus when I have done my job very well and they have turned a profit. Why aren't the service sector's employers doing the same for their employees?

chapium 4y ago
Simply, its not a bonus and its not for service. Its so the employer can pay less when business is slow.
- noisy_boy 4y ago
  Correct, and I get that. I'm just pointing out that logically tips are bonuses and they should also be paid by the employers, on top of a living wage, as is the norm in general outside service sector. It should not be paid by the customers.

yamtaddle 4y ago

I've started favoring cash when buying take-out, if paying in person, for that reason. Damn "tip" field showing up all kinds of places tips were never expected before. What the inappropriate tip screens could do to be a whole lot more like how the world operated just a few years ago, is to add a "round up to next dollar as tip" option and make that the most prominent. However, are employers using the expanded presence of tip lines & prompts as an excuse to pay workers less, somehow? Seems possible, in which case now I am kinda a dick if I'm not tipping. Wish we'd get rid of the whole damn thing, the anti-tipping movement in the early 20th century had it right. ... OTOH I used the tip % buttons on the CC reader as a way to give my favorite struggling-but-excellent pastry shop extra money when the owner was having such a hard time that she had zero employees. The single time it's been kinda nice to have them.

granshaw 4y ago
You’re not the dick, the employer is.
snarf21 4y ago
But couldn't you have also just given her an extra $20 without it being an integrated and ingrained experience?
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  Yeah, and a tip jar would have done the trick, too. But just handing her extra money would be a bit socially weird—having the tip button or a jar or something takes that factor out of it.
ghostpepper 4y ago
How does an employer being a dick make you a dick?
hosh 4y ago
There was this one time, my Australian friend told me he finally gets tipping. Tipping is not the custom in Austrailia, yet having visited the US and travelled around the world for years, tipping mystified him. He told me he finally got it when he used tipping to establish better service for future interactions. Unpacking it, it’s really about the relationship. What makes those tip fields feel like an imposition and a violation of social customs is because it shifts this from developing a personal connection with a service provider into something transactional. I’d say that, if you feel it is like emotional blackmail, it probably is — the business is exploiting both worker and customer. If you feel that personal connection and sense of community, then tipping is a way of helping support the well-being of someone in the community.

dsr_ 4y ago

Surely a tip at a self-checkout station comes in the form of a discount?

_ZeD_ 4y ago

I'm not american, and when I got to new york for some holidays I just found how bad is the tipping status here. It's awful. It's basically a legalized bribe.

droopyEyelids 4y ago
It's worse than a legalized bribe. It makes you complicit in a system of exploitation where owners pay workers below what the worker needs to survive, and if you -the customer!- don't make up the shortfall you're responsible of the immiseration of the worker.
ahoy 4y ago
It's not good for anyone. It's bad for customers, who feel squeezed at every little transaction. It's bad for employees, whose income depends on customers giving into that squeeze. An acquaintance of mine runs a coffee shop in Brooklyn. She pays her staff a higher hourly wage, doesn't accept tips, and prices things accordingly. It's a much better system, and it should be the law
BurningFrog 4y ago
Bribe dictionary definition: > persuade (someone) to act in one's favor, typically illegally or dishonestly, by a gift of money or other inducement That's not it.
- tomrod 4y ago
  If the tip impacts the service level, rather than the service level defining an expected tip, then it is more or less dishonest.

ycommentator 4y ago

That is offensively nonsensical. Tipping who, for what? Apart from which, I just did all the work. Where is MY tip?!

electrondood 4y ago

Tips are for table service. That's it. When you go to Starbucks, ask for a product, then make payment for that product, and the little POS machine basically says "hey, can we have extra money?" it's systematized panhandling.

ortusdux 4y ago
They also ask you to tip before you've been served.
SeanAnderson 4y ago
What about delivery - GrubHub / Amazon Fresh?
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  That's table service (more or less).
- pavon 4y ago
  I've gotten to the point where I will flat out boycott any new service that expects tips. Tipping at restaurants is deeply ingrained into our culture and will be hard to change, but the ever expanding set of places where tipping is now requested/expected is ridiculous. New startups whose business model is to pay their employees shit and then guilt customers into tipping will never get my business.
throwway120385 4y ago
Traditionally you would tip baristas because making a really nice latte or cappuchino is an art form that requires a lot of skill. Given that Starbucks lattes are almost always mediocre and range from bland to bland with burned coffee the only thing that's really left to tip on there is how nice people are and whether or not they do extra things to go above and beyond.
hnbear 4y ago
This is where my own internal rubric for tipping starts to break down. The delineation between "sat at a table and got service", and "payed at a counter to be handed something prepared" has a middle grey area for things that are made on-demand for me, by someone behind the counter, to my specification. - In your Starbucks example if they grab a pre-bottle something is that service? - Pulling a latte from a latte machine? - Making espresso on a complicated espresso machine I can't understand, using the beans I specified? - Doing the whole foam art thing, with more complex instructions on how I like the coffee? (To be clear, I'm not a coffee person, but I'm aware there's a complexity to the production of an espresso). A good barista can put in more effort, skill, knowledge into the coffee than a poured cup of coffee from a Mr. Coffee at the diner. Similarly, I've eaten in plenty of diners where you order at the counter and food is delivered. Is that service? What if I carry my food to the table but they bring drinks? Or I forgot something and they deliver it My point here isn't that I disagree about it being systematized panhandling. I think it's awful. But, I often find it hard to identify where to draw the line.

bitshiftfaced 4y ago

The nice thing about inflation is that my $1 "guilt tax" doesn't aggravate me as much anymore for drive-thru and 30 second counter transactions.

poutine 4y ago

Regardless of POS changes, my algorithm has not changed: if (Pay after eating || delivery of food) then tip else notip Suck it POS vendors.

throw310822 4y ago

For me, tipping is always emotional blackmail. When you're expected to pay an indeterminate sum above the official price of the service, there's always an implicit pressure to leave more rather than less for fear of looking stingy. Which is why the "unofficial, but official" percentage of tips always goes up. If anything, at a self service it's easier to tip 0, as no one is looking at you while you do it.

maerF0x0 4y ago

I want to see an end to tipping in America. I also want to see servers paid at least a living wage, and the excellent ones to earn more (perhaps by having to move upscale where wages ought to be higher reflecting more skill and effort) Is there a viable path forward? Is there some way I can support it happening?

vsareto 4y ago
Probably not. Prices for just decent places are already ridiculous since the pandemic, and they would use salaries as an excuse to raise prices further or to fight it. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the revenue goes to the owners but they still whine about tight margins though.
- idiotsecant 4y ago
  This is already tested. There are state minimum wages well above the average that don't see wild price spikes. It turns out owners can in fact pay a higher minimum wage without substantially increasing prices, they just prefer not to.
  - maerF0x0 4y ago
    Any chance of a source. If true this is great information!
idiotsecant 4y ago
Yes, raise the minimum wage to something that a person can live on.
- maerF0x0 4y ago
  I could get behind that with a carveout for inexperienced folks and qualified businesses which essentially are very small businesses that are provably low profit (ie the owners/share holders are not seeing massive return). Really roughly the idea being: Minimum wage is now = ((Median 1bed room monthly Rent in zipcode)*.3333) / 160 and will be updated annually. (.3333 of income must pay for a 1 bedroom house) If you're under 18 and have less than 1 year's experience you can accept earning 50% of minimum wage to get the experience. If your business has less than $500k of revenue, and no one is paid more than 2x anyone else. Then you can pay as low as 50% of minimum wage. I'm curious to hear from others how such a system would break?

lastofthemojito 4y ago

Tipping has officially gotten out of control. Just saw the other day that some Apple Store employees want to start asking for tips: https://daringfireball.net/linked/2023/05/04/apple-store-maryland-union-tips https://daringfireball.net/linked/2023/05/04/apple-store-mar...

ghostpepper 4y ago
So on a $3500 laptop purchase a 10% tip would be $350 for the genius who radio'd to the back to have someone else bring the product out, and then punched it in correctly on the pin pad? If we generously assume 5 minutes of work, that works out to an hourly rate of $4200/hour.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  And on other side, if I were to spend hour with sales clerk and in the end get the cheapest possible item, and pay something generous like 30%. How much would that end up being?
- bityard 4y ago
  Did you click the link? > The workers’ negotiators also want Apple to adopt a tipping system, letting patrons offer gratuities in increments of 3%, 5% or a custom amount for in-store credit-card transactions. Not 10%, unless you have money to burn/launder. But also: > “All monies collected through this manner would be dispersed to members of the bargaining unit biweekly based on any hours worked.” So as in most places these days, by tipping you're not rewarding the employee who provided good service, your tip gets spread out among all employees whether they are working hard or hardly working. Which as far as I am concerned, entirely defeats the purpose of the tipping system. I have no reason to buy anything from an Apple store but if I did, and someone provided exceptional service beyond what they were expected to, I would not tip them. I would instead saunter down to the Starbucks pagoda, buy a gift card, and then hand it directly to the person.
_boffin_ 4y ago
that to me like a throwaway during negotiations between the union and Apple.

corey_moncure 4y ago

I took my wife out to a fancy steakhouse over the weekend and remembered what "service" is supposed to be. Our waiter poured my wine, cut up our steak table side and served us, cracked pepper over our salad, went above and beyond in every way to ensure that we were comfortable and satisfied. I gladly tipped him 20% on $300 and would do so again. On the other hand, I left $10 on top of a $50 takeout order at a local Italian place and the bored, empty-handed young waitress just sat there watching me while I struggled out the door with pizza boxes and a couple bags. I resented her for her smugness and entitlement. Plus the order was wrong, as I found out later. Why on Earth am I expected to hand money over to people who are doing literally nothing but processing my credit card for payment? I've worked in food service, where I learned how hard it is and to never disparage employees at the point of service, but I cannot wrap my head around this selfish mindset of sit there and do nothing and expect people to hand over cash.

prottog 4y ago
I always understood the rule as unless there's food being brought to you at a table with tableside service, you are not to tip. Feel free not to leave the $10 next time for your takeout order.
- polski-g 4y ago
  If I have to wait in line, I do not tip.
  - ricardobayes 4y ago
    As a programmer, I threw an exception here. If you have to wait in line to be seated for table service, what do you do?
    - AstralStorm 4y ago
      A proper restaurant will have a literal waiter (the name of the job comes from that) ask you to be seated reasonably quickly anyway. And if it's overfilled, inform you of that.

dmbche 4y ago

Somewhat off topic, but did you know tipping is though to have been born out of white americans wanting to pay racialised workers less - since only whites were getting tipped. Just never moved away from it. https://time.com/5404475/history-tipping-american-restaurants-civil-war/ https://time.com/5404475/history-tipping-american-restaurant...

stalfosknight 4y ago

People need to stop feeling guilty entering in $0 tips when there was no service involved.

BurningFrog 4y ago

Who builds the app that tracks this, so I can make informed decisions before going?

Ekaros 4y ago

So if I ever go to USA, which I will never do. How much I have to tip the border agents? What about if I interact with the police? Or end up in jail and being prosecuted? Does the prosecutor need to be tipped what about judge? They are all providing personalised services to me so I understand it is always expected to be tipped in those cases? What about security guards? Should I hand out money to them if I see them while visiting some place like a mall?

908B64B197 4y ago
If you do any of that, you might get to stay for a little longer than you expected!
- Ekaros 4y ago
  So how much is it per day to each prison guard?
  - 908B64B197 4y ago
    In case you aren't trolling (perhaps you are from a country with a culture of Baksheesh for instance [0]) Tipping a government official/government worker will land you in big trouble and is a punishable crime. Trying to bribe a security agent at the mall will get you funny looks and might get the police called on you. Tipping is pretty much only for services to consumers like delivery or at a restaurant or barber or taxi. If a government service has any fee these will be clearly posted somewhere official and you will be charged the exact amount. Note that prices typically exclude sales tax, but the receipt will show the breakdown for you and the percentages are, again, available from an official source. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baksheesh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baksheesh

maerF0x0 4y ago

Adding an anecdote I've heard, supposedly these tips and charity options are in some cases being used to test price sensitivity in the market. If your coffee was $5 and that saturated your purchasing power, you wont tip or donate. But if you have additional purchasing power untapped you are more likely to, or more likely to choose a higher than average amount. This data helps the business create a price curve that allows them to increase prices without fear of lower demand. Something to consider the next time you tip electronically. I don't think the data collection game is viable with cash, even the IRS cannot keep on top of it.

idiotsecant 4y ago
That is diabolically clever. I always try to cash tip so the worker doesn't see it on taxes (unless they choose to) but this is another big reason to cash tip only.

AnimalMuppet 4y ago

Who did the work at self checkout? Oh, hey, I did. So shouldn't I be the one getting the tip?

didacticBuffalo 4y ago

Even worse is "pre-tipping" like in UberEats. As you place an order you're asked if you'd like to tip your driver before you get your delivery. I typically add 10% cuz if i don't my Uber rating goes down and i get less rides when i need them so it's more than blackmail. It's extortion. As well as a reason not to have one-app-to-rule-them-all It infuriates me when i add a tip and the driver f ups. I've had the wrong food delivered. Or delivered 20 minutes after the far end of a delivery estimate window. Uber will refund you on the food that didn't get to you but don't refund your tip.

ricardobayes 4y ago
I haven't used this service, but the food delivery guy can rate you and that also affects your other Uber rating? What the heck? How does that make sense?
- mindslight 4y ago
  The new economy is like the scene in The Dark Knight where The Joker breaks a pool cue in half and throws the pieces to two henchmen to fight it out. Uber has just figured out how to get the customer in on the action. Remember when one of the selling points of early Uber was the complete lack of tipping? The dynamic OP describes seems like a great reason to steer clear of UberEats, not that we need another one.

sys32768 4y ago

I tipped my local coffee shop three dollars, drove away with my three drinks, then discovered later they had messed up all my drinks. That was humiliating. On the other hand, somebody at our local pizza joint recently made the most perfect version of our favorite pizza we've had yet. When it was time to pay, I tipped extra and wrote a note complimenting the worker who made our pizza. That felt good and just.

disruptiveink 4y ago

As a non-US citizen/resident, I can't wait for Americans to finally riot against tipping, just so they stop doing it abroad. A shame that it had to take comical proportions domestically for people to start questioning it. Americans tipping abroad while on holidays ruins service for everyone that isn't American – as a non-American you are guaranteed to get worse service than a American in touristy places (and sometimes, to add insult to injury, your own local places), because an American tourist will just insist on tipping 20% or more in places where maybe 1€ = good tip and 2€ = great tip. It doesn't matter if they repeatedly get told not to do it, American tourists keep insisting on doing it to "be nice". The result is that hospitality obviously optimises for being extra nice to Americans and treat everyone else with apathy. And because you only tip at the end, it doesn't even matter if you were willing to tip like an American, you're going to get the bad treatment (and by then when the bill arrives any motivation to tip well is gone – a classic catch-22). You're basically discriminated for not looking and speaking with an American accent everywhere you go as a tourist. Please, inform yourselves of tipping cultures when you travel and do it appropriately. Also take in consideration a lot of "this is how much you should tip" guides online are horrible wrong and err on the side of overstating the tip (no idea why – possibly not to offend US sensitivities?). You'd think with all the "cultural appropriation" and "cultural imperialism" awareness these days people would be better in not imposing toxic parts of their culture elsewhere, but here we are.

yowzadave 4y ago
> hospitality obviously optimises for being extra nice to Americans and treat everyone else with apathy Maybe this is how the tipping practice got started in the first place?
- disruptiveink 4y ago
  Ignoring for a moment the 20% premium, the issue is that in the US, (mostly) everyone is American. Unless you're a regular, hospitality has no way of telling whether you're a good tipper or a bad tipper. There may be "tells" or "feelings", but that's the extent of it. So when you walk into a place, you're going to get the same service as the next guy. Your logic may track for regulars (a repeat customer may tip to get nicer service next time), but that's not the phenomenon that I was describing. If you're in a touristy place and you're not American, if the place in particular has seen enough Americans, they're going to treat you badly because in their mind, you're taking up the table of an American tourist which would give them a lot of free money for doing the same work. I, as a non-American tourist who has never been in that particular place before, have no way of opting out of the "bad service mode" and opting into the "American service mode" – I obviously don't have an American accent. I obviously can't state "I'm going to tip you 20%!" at the beginning of the service – I'd look like a deranged person.

Fernicia 4y ago

Tipping in the U.S. is such a travesty. This is painfully apparent in bars. Compared with, say, Ireland where a barman can take multiple orders at once, batch them, then quickly take payment via a single contactless tap. In the U.S. you have to "open a tab", the bartender has to add drinks to your tab, then when you want to pay, the bartender has to print off the tab, have you sign it, do mental maths, and finally write down the total bill. I'm sure there's also extraneous labour when it comes to reading the signed amounts and inputting them into the billing system. It also lends itself to fraud. What's stopping a bartender adding a few bucks here and there on tipped amounts. Or a card owner disputing a tip they genuinely gave. The idea that a bar which has scanned your card, can then withdraw any amount it wishes at a later date is totally backwards and should be stopped. I am convinced that if a bar were to switch to the non-US system, then the increase in order speed and reduction in prices would mean no lost profit for the bar, and happier customers.

ipnon 4y ago
Which apps do the bars in Ireland use for payment?
- Fernicia 4y ago
  It's just a contactless card machine. You can use apple pay, google pay, your card's NFC chip. Anything works.

ipnon 4y ago

Tipping is a classic prisoner’s dilemma. Everybody stops tipping, we all win. You stop tipping, and you lose. One thing is for certain, no amount of think pieces in major newspapers will change the status quo. There needs to be a different solution, maybe technical, in a reasonable direction.

catiopatio 4y ago

I’ve always assumed that tips are for any non-professional personal service where the output quality can vary massively depending on care and/or attention to detail, and which requires a degree of trust in the service provider — whether or not there’s actually “table service” involved, or a human being directly handling your money. Tipping is effective at encouraging that care and attention to detail, and shows a degree of respect for someone doing you a service. I tip movers, my house cleaner, the valet, hotel maid service, bartenders, and anyone (at a non-chain restaurant) involved in directly preparing, serving, or delivering my food — including take-out. I’m okay with this. I think the US’ tipping culture produces a better overall level of service than we’d have otherwise — barring some massive shift in our underlying culture.

PrimeMcFly 4y ago
> I think the US’ tipping culture produces a better overall level of service than we’d have otherwise I think the opposite is true. I've had better service in the UK and New Zealand and pretty much any country that doesn't have US tipping culture. I could see it being true for high-end restaurants and offerings though, maybe.

orev 4y ago

I was just at an airport and bought a pre-packed sandwich from the refrigerator, and the POS was setup to ask for tips! I have sympathy for workers at places like this, as I know they don’t get paid much, but this is probably the last straw for me. When I see stuff like this, it increases my aggravation level, and I’m sure it has the same effect on others. Retail workers already get treated badly by customers, and this could easily start pushing some people other the edge. It seems like we’re entering the era of the “aggravation economy”, where the new strategy seems to be to annoy the hell out of people as much as possible so they pay to make it stop. This has been perfected by tech companies for years, and now seems to be spilling over into the real world.

hotpotamus 4y ago
Without getting into a whole thing about automating away peoples' jobs, buying pre-packaged sandwiches from a machine is a technical challenge that I believe was solved in the 19th century and there was a little automat fad surrounding it. Certainly it's how I buy lunch on many a day when I don't want to have to deal with social interaction.

alexaholic 4y ago

I think tipping incentivises managers to lowball workers. I'm not buying into that "service not included" bullshit. How about you just... include it, and start paying at least the minimum wage if not more? I get tipping when someone goes out of their way or whatever but, frankly, pushing cups and plates around rarely sparks a conversation. And oftentimes it's just that. I'm from an European country where tipping is expected to the point where they give you a surprised stare and they might mutter something. About a year ago I stopped tipping and stopped caring about such expectations. It's none of my business.

Simulacra 4y ago

I've reached tipping burnout. I actively avoiding going places where I would be expected to tip. Everywhere else, picking up food, I tip zero.

PrimeMcFly 4y ago

Tipping is a backwards system, honestly. No real minimum wage laws, so pass what should be the employer cost on to the customer? It's even crappier for workers when bosses dictate that tips should be pooled or whatever. Honestly it should be more regulated and the minimum wage should be ate least reasonable.

mindslight 4y ago
> It's even crappier for workers when bosses dictate that tips should be pooled or whatever. Your comment made me think - I wonder if a way of reigning in this weaponization of tipping culture would be state laws for transparency of where tips actually go. Let's say anywhere that solicits tips must clearly post how that money is divided up (on the menu, tip jar, POS terminal, prominent signs, etc). Whether it all goes to your server, whether it's pooled between servers, pooled with the whole staff, whether any doesn't go to employees for any reason, etc. I'd think the servers who actually benefit from tips (individually tipped at nice places) would be fine with this, while the places where it's become a general guilt-tax that just gets averaged out and used as a substitute for wages would be laid bare.
- PrimeMcFly 4y ago
  I agree with you that tipping transparency would be good, but honestly they should just raise the minimum wage and stop worker exploitation, that's a much better solution.
  - mindslight 4y ago
    While I agree with the thrust of your comment, I don't think that's a solution to tipping - the same dynamic would still exist, because it's effectively a form of differentiated pricing based on how much you can guilt each customer.
    - PrimeMcFly 4y ago
      I don't understand. Minimum wage as a reasonable price would eliminate tipping altogether in most low-end to medium rate restaurants - the means through which they guilt the customer would be eliminated. People would still try, and it would take a while for the culture to dissipate entirely, but most people would eventually realize there would be no reason to tip and so wouldn't.

sheepybloke 4y ago

Pre-tipping is also getting out of hand. I was looking at doing a train dining experience in Colorado for my wife's birthday, and they automatically added in a 20% gratuity to your bill. At that point, it's not actually tipping, that's just a huge fee.

eappleby 4y ago

There needs to be a Supreme Court ruling that outlaws tying wages to tips received. This is what caused the mess we are in now. Tipping is rife with racial and sexual discrimination[1] and contributes to wage instability and other problems, but it is a prisoner's dilemma situation because if one company increases their prices to incorporate tips, but another does not, the prices of the company that increased their prices will appear artificially high and will lose customers. The few companies that tried no-tipping had to end it[2]. Until systemic changes are implemented, I think the amount people tip should not be tied to service received to avoid bias (i.e. if you generally tip restaurant servers 20%, then tip all servers 20% and if you receive better or worse service do not tip more or less, but rather change the frequency that you are a patron). For tips requested for non-service interactions (e.g. self-checkouts), it is probably better not to tip so that it does not proliferate the problem. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/05/black-restaurant-workers-received-less-in-tips-than-others-during-pandemic.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/05/black-restaurant-workers-rec... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/20/dining/danny-meyer-no-tips.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/20/dining/danny-meyer-no-tip...

gnicholas 4y ago
What would be the legal reasoning for such a SCOTUS opinion? It seems like you're hinting at equal protection, but I'm not clear how you'd tie together the necessary pieces. Even assuming the composition of the court changed to be more friendly to living constitution arguments, I'm just not seeing this. Can you spell this out a bit more?

gnicholas 4y ago

I'm almost glad they're doing this on self-checkout now, since it clearly demonstrates that they will ask for tips even when there is no actual reason whatsoever. Before this, you always had to wonder if perhaps you were being unreasonable in not tipping someone who merely rang up a purchase for you. After all, if the machine is prompting for a tip, then perhaps a tip is appropriate in this circumstance? But now it's clear that they will ask for tips even when it's absolutely unwarranted. So you can now decide for yourself where the 'line' is on tipping, since "did the machine suggest a tip?" is no longer an accurate heuristic.

Scottn1 4y ago

This is getting worse. I was at Jimmy Johns the other day and their POS now blatantly makes it difficult to NOT tip. It doesn't give you a clear option to choose $0, only the three standard options (from memory) of 15,18 or 20%. This on top of my turkey sandwich w/cheese added and chips + drink that came out to like a ridiculous $15. I was stuck staring at the machine trying to find out how to NOT tip right in front of the register person. I eventually just decided to hit the red button that I thought was canceling the order and it went on to next screen for payment. I was so aggravated in being manipulated into feeling like a cheap non-caring ass I might not go there anymore.