5 ms·

Can you help me understand what you're saying? It comes off as so over the top that I find it absurd, but maybe we just have different backgrounds/experience.

Can you help me understand what you're saying? It comes off as so over the top that I find it absurd, but maybe we just have different backgrounds/experience. 1) Companies are not incentivized to produce incompatible cables, the industry has done a remarkably good job of settling on basically a single standard, so the incentives seem to run counter to what you say. The major hold out introduced their own cable standard 2 years _before_ USB-C even existed, and even they were rumored to be moving to USB-C anyways. (I'm sure people will credit the law with this even if it had nothing to do with it.) Would it have been good if they had switched to USB-C earlier? Sure, but that would mean... people throwing out their old cables that worked perfectly fine. 2.) Would the amount of charging cables you have purchased in your lifetime even fill up one regular-sized (13 gallon-ish) trash bag? I don't know how many charging cables you are buying or what your uses are, but I'm struggling to see how it's a "staggering" amount of waste. I'm a somewhat avid electronic geek, I own multiple Raspberry Pis and other hobbyist electronics. No way would I even come close. When I do buy new cables, 90% of the time it's for reasons like the old ones have worn out, or I have a new device that needs to be permanently plugged in. ~~~Edited to add~~~ All my consumer electronics devices have stopped needing their own charger for years now. I use the same charger and swap out a cord.

skeletal88 3y ago
This happened because the EU forced them to agree on a single charger/cable standard and it happened to be micro-usb for a while. Before this every mobile manufacturer had their own version of a charging AND data cable, separately..
- Auracle 3y ago
  The EU absolutely did not force micro-usb. It was a strongly worded suggestion at a time when it seems we were already moving that way.
  - fbdab103 3y ago
    And everyone but Apple embraced the original specification[0]. Given Apple's previous moves, a heavier hand seems warranted. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply
    - dghlsakjg 3y ago
      To be fair to Apple, micro-USB was an inferior standard to lightning. Lightning is a more durable design (in terms of plug/unplug cycles), had higher power capacity originally, and was reversible.
      - zamnos 3y ago
        USB-C is also inferior to lightning for laptops, but here we are. It's got this stupid internal tongue on the recepticals that will break if you try and clean the port with an office standard paperclip with any real force. Hope you don't do anything involving tiny particles like sand or wood or cloth (like is found inside of pocket in the form of lint)!
        crote 3y ago
        That "stupid internal tongue" is why USB-C can now carry 160 Gbps, while Lightning can only do 0.45 Gbps. Yes, it kinda sucks for cleaning, but it makes it future-proof.
        Dylan16807 3y ago
        Lightning is that limited because Apple chooses for it to be, not because of the port. They made a double-sided variant with high speed data before. The port can't directly drive all the weird miscellaneous pins that USB-C has, but it does have four high speed lanes, the same as USB-C. On a physical level it can reach the same speeds.
  - Nullabillity 3y ago
    "Use micro-usb or we will make you use it".
  - xorcist 3y ago
    They absolutely did. "Sort it out or we will make a law" is what enforcement looks like. Before that, everyone had their own variant of the barrel plug. A few crappy low price vendors just used micro usb instead, since they couldn't possibly have a proprietary moat to speak of anyway. It's one of the examples where consumer legislation worked.
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      That wasn't legislation or enforcement.
      - Symbiote 3y ago
        That is the European way. Ask nicely first, push a little harder, threaten, then finally pass a law if the result hasn't been achieved. You will note everyone except Apple did what the EU wanted early in this process.
        robertlagrant 3y ago
        I do note that. I'm not sure how that relates, though.
xg15 3y ago
There is an entire product category of "universal power adapters"[1] that wouldn't exist if GP's problem weren't an issue - and that was back when most adapters were just "dumb" power sources that provided a fixed voltage with fixed maximum current. There is no way to combine Micro USB, USBC, Thunderbolt and whatever Microsoft was doing with Surface devices into one adapter without separate electronics for each port. > 1) Companies are not incentivized to produce incompatible cables They absolutely are. I figure, it's not even greed (most of the adapters were included with the devices) but simply "designer convenience". It's certainly easier to design a device if you can choose an arbitrary input voltage and max power for your device. It'll also certainly make your life as a manufacturer easier if you only have to provide warranty for devices that are run with your own power adapter. Also, Apple in particular seems to have an aversion to follow any kind of standard not set by themselves if they can in any way avoid it. See Lightning, Thunderbolt, MagSafe, etc. Doesn't mean this is better for anyone else except from the manufacturer. > 2.) Would the amount of charging cables you have purchased in your lifetime even fill up one regular-sized (13 gallon-ish) trash bag? I haven't measured but this isn't the point for me. But it used to be that the amount of adapters that you had to take with you were increasing: I.e. if laptop, phone and ipod all had different adapers and you were travelling, you had to take three of them with you. > All my consumer electronics devices have stopped needing their own charger for years now. Yes, so have mine, thanks to the EU regulation. [1] https://www.kaufland.de/product/440138880/ https://www.kaufland.de/product/440138880/
- dghlsakjg 3y ago
  As someone who designs device, I would HATE having to use a proprietary connector/device/protocol. I'm small time, so maybe engineering departments at major companies see it differently. Right now I can design a product that uses one of the USB standards and pick from literally thousands of different pre-made parts that handle all the silly things for me. If I'm fine with 5v/2a power, I can just drop a $.0292 (that's the prototype price, it drops drastically at higher volumes) piece into the design and know that any cable and charger will work with it. If I need more power than 10 watts I can spend $.50 on a usb-c plug and PD controller. I truly don't understand why companies would fight this for most devices. The one thing I'm worried about is what happens when someone comes up with something truly innovative (say, a phone battery that can charge at faster than 100 watts). Does that mean they will be penalized if they have to use a proprietary connector since usb-c is unable to meet that?
jzb 3y ago
"Companies are not incentivized to produce incompatible cables, the industry has done a remarkably good job of settling on basically a single standard" If constrained to cell phones and tablets only I might sort-of agree with you, but right now the rest of the industry is fragmented to the point that it's not advantageous for any vendor to have its own weird cable except for Apple. Even still, laptops can charge and dock via USB-C but they still often have their own weird-ass connectors and chargers. But this also ignores the pre-Android years of every cell phone manufacturer having their own chargers, etc. "Would the amount of charging cables you have purchased in your lifetime even fill up one regular-sized (13 gallon-ish) trash bag?" If we're only talking about cell phones, close but no. But if we include similar devices that have used similar chargers and now use USB-C (ebook readers, MP3 players, tablets, handheld gaming devices) then yes. Easily. Starting in the late 90s, I've owned something like 15 cell phones, and I think ~10 of them had unique chargers. Several MP3 players starting with the Creative Nomad and ending with a Fiio X5 (I think? I lost it on a plane). Three or four handheld gaming devices including a Sony PSP, IIRC. And that doesn't include things like smart speakers (Amazon Echo devices now use USB-C I think? But the first few didn't), and a slew of other devices that could've used the prevailing standard (USB micro or mini or now USB-C) but didn't. And that doesn't even include the parade of assorted data connection cables... And, finally, that is only my personal use. I have a family, so when I say a "staggering" amount of waste I'm taking into account all of the various unique and now dead-end devices/connectors/cables that my wife and kids have churned through. So - would I trade the potential for innovation on the off chance someone is going to come up with a super-duper nifty new cable vs. having a legislated standard? Yep. Happily.
anigbrowl 3y ago
struggling to see how it's a "staggering" amount of waste multiply the quite low volume of cable/adapter trash the average individual consumer has by the very large number of consumers. Now picture all that junk in a landfill taking up space and leaking various chemicals as the sun and weather slowly degrade all the plastics, glue etc.
- gcanyon 3y ago
  I'm not disagreeing that less waste is good, but really, we're talking about an area about 500 meters on a side and 10 meters deep -- for the entire world. Car tires take up roughly 30 times as much space.

skeletal88 3y ago

This happened because the EU forced them to agree on a single charger/cable standard and it happened to be micro-usb for a while. Before this every mobile manufacturer had their own version of a charging AND data cable, separately..

Auracle 3y ago
The EU absolutely did not force micro-usb. It was a strongly worded suggestion at a time when it seems we were already moving that way.
- fbdab103 3y ago
  And everyone but Apple embraced the original specification[0]. Given Apple's previous moves, a heavier hand seems warranted. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply
  - dghlsakjg 3y ago
    To be fair to Apple, micro-USB was an inferior standard to lightning. Lightning is a more durable design (in terms of plug/unplug cycles), had higher power capacity originally, and was reversible.
    - zamnos 3y ago
      USB-C is also inferior to lightning for laptops, but here we are. It's got this stupid internal tongue on the recepticals that will break if you try and clean the port with an office standard paperclip with any real force. Hope you don't do anything involving tiny particles like sand or wood or cloth (like is found inside of pocket in the form of lint)!
      - crote 3y ago
        That "stupid internal tongue" is why USB-C can now carry 160 Gbps, while Lightning can only do 0.45 Gbps. Yes, it kinda sucks for cleaning, but it makes it future-proof.
        Dylan16807 3y ago
        Lightning is that limited because Apple chooses for it to be, not because of the port. They made a double-sided variant with high speed data before. The port can't directly drive all the weird miscellaneous pins that USB-C has, but it does have four high speed lanes, the same as USB-C. On a physical level it can reach the same speeds.
- Nullabillity 3y ago
  "Use micro-usb or we will make you use it".
- xorcist 3y ago
  They absolutely did. "Sort it out or we will make a law" is what enforcement looks like. Before that, everyone had their own variant of the barrel plug. A few crappy low price vendors just used micro usb instead, since they couldn't possibly have a proprietary moat to speak of anyway. It's one of the examples where consumer legislation worked.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    That wasn't legislation or enforcement.
    - Symbiote 3y ago
      That is the European way. Ask nicely first, push a little harder, threaten, then finally pass a law if the result hasn't been achieved. You will note everyone except Apple did what the EU wanted early in this process.
      - robertlagrant 3y ago
        I do note that. I'm not sure how that relates, though.

xg15 3y ago

There is an entire product category of "universal power adapters"[1] that wouldn't exist if GP's problem weren't an issue - and that was back when most adapters were just "dumb" power sources that provided a fixed voltage with fixed maximum current. There is no way to combine Micro USB, USBC, Thunderbolt and whatever Microsoft was doing with Surface devices into one adapter without separate electronics for each port. > 1) Companies are not incentivized to produce incompatible cables They absolutely are. I figure, it's not even greed (most of the adapters were included with the devices) but simply "designer convenience". It's certainly easier to design a device if you can choose an arbitrary input voltage and max power for your device. It'll also certainly make your life as a manufacturer easier if you only have to provide warranty for devices that are run with your own power adapter. Also, Apple in particular seems to have an aversion to follow any kind of standard not set by themselves if they can in any way avoid it. See Lightning, Thunderbolt, MagSafe, etc. Doesn't mean this is better for anyone else except from the manufacturer. > 2.) Would the amount of charging cables you have purchased in your lifetime even fill up one regular-sized (13 gallon-ish) trash bag? I haven't measured but this isn't the point for me. But it used to be that the amount of adapters that you had to take with you were increasing: I.e. if laptop, phone and ipod all had different adapers and you were travelling, you had to take three of them with you. > All my consumer electronics devices have stopped needing their own charger for years now. Yes, so have mine, thanks to the EU regulation. [1] https://www.kaufland.de/product/440138880/ https://www.kaufland.de/product/440138880/

dghlsakjg 3y ago
As someone who designs device, I would HATE having to use a proprietary connector/device/protocol. I'm small time, so maybe engineering departments at major companies see it differently. Right now I can design a product that uses one of the USB standards and pick from literally thousands of different pre-made parts that handle all the silly things for me. If I'm fine with 5v/2a power, I can just drop a $.0292 (that's the prototype price, it drops drastically at higher volumes) piece into the design and know that any cable and charger will work with it. If I need more power than 10 watts I can spend $.50 on a usb-c plug and PD controller. I truly don't understand why companies would fight this for most devices. The one thing I'm worried about is what happens when someone comes up with something truly innovative (say, a phone battery that can charge at faster than 100 watts). Does that mean they will be penalized if they have to use a proprietary connector since usb-c is unable to meet that?

jzb 3y ago

"Companies are not incentivized to produce incompatible cables, the industry has done a remarkably good job of settling on basically a single standard" If constrained to cell phones and tablets only I might sort-of agree with you, but right now the rest of the industry is fragmented to the point that it's not advantageous for any vendor to have its own weird cable except for Apple. Even still, laptops can charge and dock via USB-C but they still often have their own weird-ass connectors and chargers. But this also ignores the pre-Android years of every cell phone manufacturer having their own chargers, etc. "Would the amount of charging cables you have purchased in your lifetime even fill up one regular-sized (13 gallon-ish) trash bag?" If we're only talking about cell phones, close but no. But if we include similar devices that have used similar chargers and now use USB-C (ebook readers, MP3 players, tablets, handheld gaming devices) then yes. Easily. Starting in the late 90s, I've owned something like 15 cell phones, and I think ~10 of them had unique chargers. Several MP3 players starting with the Creative Nomad and ending with a Fiio X5 (I think? I lost it on a plane). Three or four handheld gaming devices including a Sony PSP, IIRC. And that doesn't include things like smart speakers (Amazon Echo devices now use USB-C I think? But the first few didn't), and a slew of other devices that could've used the prevailing standard (USB micro or mini or now USB-C) but didn't. And that doesn't even include the parade of assorted data connection cables... And, finally, that is only my personal use. I have a family, so when I say a "staggering" amount of waste I'm taking into account all of the various unique and now dead-end devices/connectors/cables that my wife and kids have churned through. So - would I trade the potential for innovation on the off chance someone is going to come up with a super-duper nifty new cable vs. having a legislated standard? Yep. Happily.

anigbrowl 3y ago

struggling to see how it's a "staggering" amount of waste multiply the quite low volume of cable/adapter trash the average individual consumer has by the very large number of consumers. Now picture all that junk in a landfill taking up space and leaking various chemicals as the sun and weather slowly degrade all the plastics, glue etc.

gcanyon 3y ago
I'm not disagreeing that less waste is good, but really, we're talking about an area about 500 meters on a side and 10 meters deep -- for the entire world. Car tires take up roughly 30 times as much space.