15 ms·

Burnout

304 points by emerongi 3y ago

mav88 3y ago
Talking about it is good. Rest well and we'll see you when you're ready.
simonswords82 3y ago
I never get tired of hearing people say publicly that they are tired, need a break, and will put themselves first for the foreseeable. I hope that this continues to normalise self care and counter balance the hustle culture.
- throwaway71271 3y ago
  there is a saying in my country: to get a nut tight: Tighten it until it loosens, then back off a quarter turn. As it is pointed in the article, it really creeps up on you, and it is much harder to 'back off quarter turn' when the nut is broken.
  - streakfix 3y ago
    How do you tighten a nut until it loosens?
    - viraptor 3y ago
      I read it as "something gives". Either you strip the tread or the nut breaks, or something else unexpected/unwanted happens.
      - tremon 3y ago
        I've never been able to strip the tread off a nut using just the strength of my bear hands (:p). Sure, I've over-tightened screws into nylon walls plugs or even into wood. But to damage a nut just by overfastening the bolt? I'd need a pneumatic drill at least.
        lelanthran 3y ago
        > I've never been able to strip the tread off a nut using just the strength of my bear hands (:p). I have. small metric 10 nut. Also, with almost no effort you can strip the threads in spark plugs holes (aluminium head).
        doubled112 3y ago
        Different, but I have a habit of breaking valve cover bolts too, with just a screwdriver even. Click, swear, back it off a quarter turn. Often with vice grips. I've been lucky so far. Not great either is the way my impact gun is designed. You put it down on the wrong side, and the direction slider gets pushed so you're ramming it back on instead of taking it off.
    - nmz 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - qorrect 3y ago
        Lefty righty, tighty loosey, am I doing it ?
    - 6nf 3y ago
      You break something
  - ChuckNorris89 3y ago
    That was my experience exactly. Burnout creeps on you without you realizing and only once it stops and you disconnect completely do you realize the mess you were.
- sph 3y ago
  On the other hand, I always get irritated when I hear "yeah, I know I'm pushing too hard, but if I burn out I'll take a holiday." Ha ha. You have not known burnout. It has taken me a drastic break from work, isolation, depression, thousands of pounds in therapy, and 18 months to recover from work-related burn out. I did not write a single line of code for a year. I am better now, maybe even better than I've ever been in my life, but I am a completely different person. There is a pre-burnout self, and a post-burnout one. (I don't code after work anymore. I do not enjoy cutting edge tech as much as I did just a couple years ago. I have become allergic to corporate life.) Those that joke about burnout have no idea what they are talking about.
  - ravenstine 3y ago
    Burnout that occurs outside of work isn't talked about enough, maybe because it's mainly restricted to a certain kind of individual in specific kinds of fields like programming. Programming itself can lead to burnout because it provides a promise of infinite possibilities, and some of us get fooled into thinking we are equally as capable as the code itself. This leads to time that could otherwise be spent getting in touch with our humanity instead being spent on countless side projects, many of which we secretly hope will lead to wealth and prestige. Virtually all of those projects will fail or reach a dead end; that may not seem like a big deal in your early 20s, but the realization of repeated failure and time spent in relative solitude can take it's toll once you hit your 30s. The burnout feeling occurs, not because you are doing anything functionally different from when you were addicted to code, but because the novelty eventually fades and it becomes clear how short life is. Worse yet, you may have nothing to show for all your effort. One may even have had their social skills atrophy. Burnout can have physiological components, but most of it is mental. The negative effects of having a passion for code may lead to a sense of worthlessness. Feeling like you are as insignificant as a smudge of excrement on a piece of tissue surging out to sea can be pretty demotivating.
    - ChuckNorris89 3y ago
      >and some of us get fooled into thinking we are equally as capable as the code itself IMHO burnout as a SW dev isn't because of the coding itself, I find that the easiest part to deal with. It's the constant pressure to stay up to date an an industry that changes faster and faster and a job market that get more and more competitive. It's the constant sprinting towards more and more ambitious arbitrary deadlines set by sales or management using half-assed Agile and Scrum processes imposed onto you by clueless higher-ups. It's constant interruptions and multitasking in several tools you have to keep up with throughout the day: chats, calls, emails, Jira, etc. while also being expected to focus and code. It's the exhausting and time consuming interview practices. It's the idiotic and overpaid management and execs who treat you like a disposable resource and thinks colorful beanbags, ping-pong and foosball tables would make me want to spend 2h commuting to the office every day to sit in a noisy open office with a view of a concrete parking lot, and that pictures of employees in funny situations with moustaches drawn on them and turned into memes and plastered around the office means a "friendly" atmosphere and it's what I would enjoy instead of WFH in peace and quiet (maybe I'm too old or something but I can't stand my workplace treating me, a professional in my 30's, like I'm a childish toddler looking to join some kindergarten playground). Coding and debugging alone is very pleasant for me, it's why I became a dev, but it's everything else related to this industry that breaks my will to live.
- brianjking 3y ago
  We must also normalize the ability to TAKE THE TIME, not just normalize acknowledging the need.
limaoscarjuliet 3y ago
I feel you. The part that resonates with me the most is we have a choice to make: give up or fight. Our time will pass either way. I had many of these moments in my life and, after some hesitation, always picked the get up and fight mode. I hope you will too. It wil get us places for sure. Good luck with your life, carry on!
- lower 3y ago
  Yeah, but then you have: It seems like every week or two this year, another crisis presented itself, each manageable in isolation. I've had this happen and it really grinds you down when you work full-out for months and, just when you think you've contained all the crises, the next one drops.
- bitschubser_ 3y ago
  I don't know if I may misunderstand you, but from personal experience this approach is quite risky, all these little "get up" fights will compound, wear you off and lead to a hard collapse in the end, small patching will just prolong the crash. It's important to see (with help) when the "fight" is just not worth it anymore and sometimes pulling the emergency break is the best thing to do, jeahh you'll may hurt/disappoint others when doing so, but for the sake of your own health and sanity this is quite often the better choice (imho).
  - limaoscarjuliet 3y ago
    In my case, with every new challenge I try not to repeat mistakes of the past. I change things and sometimes for good. And yes, need a break every now and then!
- Aeolun 3y ago
  It’s weird, but I’ve gone the opposite way. Whenever I get to the point where it’s ‘lie down and give up, or get up and fight’, I feel like it’s perfectly fine for me to just lie down and see if I’ll have motivation another day.
DotaFan 3y ago
I am always on a verge on burnout, and somehow I'm balancing that well, I suppose..
- dgb23 3y ago
  Don’t be afraid to really relax and do stuff that has no meaning or goal.
mirekrusin 3y ago
This is not a burnout, this is depression. Possibly one of most valuable things you can do is to focus on better quality of questions you're asking yourself in your inner dialogue when thinking about anything throughout the day. I hate to say it but I do believe it'll help you a lot in this situation - brainwash yourself by listening to motivational speakers like Napoleon Hill, Brian Tracy, Tony Robins or any others (pick your best, it doesn't matter; ask GPT4 for a list if you want to explore more). Do something random outside like going cycling on some local meetup. If you're unable to do this kind of stuff, your top priority is to take professional help asap.
- dgb23 3y ago
  Burnout is just a form of depression packed into a term that seems more acceptable.
  - mirekrusin 3y ago
    Ok, I actually take it back, if it was depression the author wouldn't say they'll take time to rest - this text does look like burnout indeed. Burnout and depression are two different things (different cause, some similar/overlaping but still distinct symptoms and different kind of treatment).
  - aeim 3y ago
    I'd phrase as 'depression is burnout of the self', or 'burnout is depression of non-self contexts' such as alternate, or specialist contexts, per project/ profession, etc. (with self simply being the default context)
- andyjohnson0 3y ago
  > Possibly one of most valuable things you can do is to focus on better quality of questions you're asking yourself in your inner dialogue when thinking about anything throughout the day. +1 for this. Learning how to "talk" to yourself with honesty, but also self-compassion, is so important. I wish someone had explained this to me earlier in my life because its a difficult thing to learn and I still struggle with it. Its so easy to deceive or distract yourself when thinking about your own life.
orzig 3y ago
I’m very thankful to people who write these things, because they helped me recognize burn out and address it when I was early in my career. I would not have handled it at all well without the pattern matching
jimsimmons 3y ago
I’ve probably been burntout for a while. Haven’t had a vacation in a long time, haven’t been making the progress I want to be etc At the same time chalking it all up to “burnout” seems dishonest. I’ve not been doing a good job —- I lack general discipline, have been on and off abusing drugs, been too alone and existential. I don’t think an abrupt break is going to fix these things so I stay put, trying to fix underlying issues or make enough progress to be actually mindless on a vacation someday.
- mmmmmbop 3y ago
  FWIW, I felt the same, and taking a few months off helped me tremendously. Not that I'm fully healed or anything, but it gave me some new perspectives, and it feels like I've regained some of my mental health.
a_bonobo 3y ago
>Dependable Drew, an ear to listen, a shoulder to cry on I used to be the same as a student - always trying to fix all those broken people around me, somehow attracting mostly mentally-ill friends, visiting too many in psychiatric wards. I thought I was doing good, but I was just letting myself get dragged down. I haven't fixed a single one of their problems, I just had my energy pulled out of me. Looks like OP put himself into a similar position to mine... I learned the hard way that I am the captain of my own ship, others' ships will happily pull mine down to the bottom of the ocean. I have a responsibility towards my own ship and walked away.
- everdrive 3y ago
  I used to be in a similar situation. It hurts because I really do want to help people. Often, you're not helping, but merely building co-dependence, or otherwise teaching them to rely on people. (ie, you, or you next enabler.) Pure sympathy really ends up not being the best way to help people. Setting boundaries, and tough love often go much further to actually changing behaviors.
- ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
  It's a long, sad story (get your hanky), but I have spent my entire adult life, in a fellowship that includes some of the most dangerous, selfish, and just downright nuts people on earth. I.e. really interesting and fun people. But ones that often have little respect for personal boundaries. I have learned to enforce my boundaries. I don't expect other to respect them. At the same time, I have found that I don't need to use nukes to enforce my boundaries. Very often, a simple "No, I won't do that." is sufficient, as opposed "OMG! Get the hell away from me, you maniac!". Also, and I feel this is a lesson that many folks these days, could benefit from, if I initiate a relationship with hostility, it is likely to forevermore be a non-productive relationship. It usually costs me nothing, to initiate relationships with courtesy. The other party may still be an uncouth bastard, but control of the future of the relationship is now in my hands; not theirs. I can still maintain courtesy, and am able to avoid dunking the relationship immediately.
Beaver117 3y ago
I burned out last year, luckily I had the funds to quit without anything lined up and been semi-retired ever since. I'd like to work again but modern software jobs ask for too much. Why should I dedicate so much of my life and brainpower to 24/7 oncall and managing development? No amount of money is worth the stress.
- mmmmmbop 3y ago
  As someone who is considering doing the same, would you mind sharing how many times your yearly expenses you consider enough to quit without anything lined up?
  - sph 3y ago
    I live in London. I burned through my entire savings of £60,000 in a year and a half of burnout recovery and therapy; 1.5x my yearly expenditure. I am broke now, and recovered. It is the best money I have spent. I do not want to imagine where would I be without that money stashed away.
  - dividuum 3y ago
    Not OP, but I quit 10 years ago without a clear plan with around 1.5 years of runway. Did a bit of freelancing after that and now run my own company. I'm usually more on the risk-averse side of things, but that felt safe enough for me.
    - ornornor 3y ago
      How did you find these freelance gigs and what were your tasks?
      - dividuum 3y ago
        Exclusively from previous work relationships. Mostly around network infrastructure stuff (BGP automation) and e-commerce full-stack development and operation. I explicitly only took gigs that where very clear in scope to ensure I had enough time to try out my own ideas.
ushakov 3y ago
Drew needs a therapist
- ornornor 3y ago
  Most people do. Maybe you do too.
  - ushakov 3y ago
    I have one, luckily
universesquid 3y ago
It's really a shocker to me whenever I see people in obviously difficult situations worry about their productivity. Like is this really what modern life has become? Build whole identities around being productive and doing a good job to an extent that someone who sees a foundation of their life falling apart is feeling guilt about not doing enough for their work.
- racktash 3y ago
  Some people definitely do fixate (and derive a sense of purpose, whether that's good or not) from perpetual productivity improvement – I think this is why online productivity and life hack gurus are so popular. But for some, it's all about looking like they care about productivity because that's what their job or manager expects. Certainly this was the case for me. Throughout my twenties, I pushed myself to be more "productive" in my career because I thought I had to look like a go-getter to the people who paid me. I put in extra hours and effort, and even enrolled in an online university course to further expand my skills (resulting in me having next to zero free time!). I still like to work hard and do good work, but I no longer push myself to be very good at everything I do. "Competent" is my aim. Doing my paid work to a standard that is "good enough" is not only easier on my stress levels, but my managers continue to report satisfaction with my work.
- whstl 3y ago
  It's probably not the same experience for everyone, but when I was burned out or depressed, I "had" to cling to the things I could still have some control. Being productive was the main one. It also would distract me from the other issues. Of course, excessive work was causing most of the issues, now it's easy to see. I got burned out when I wasn't in a good place. Having the same experience when you have a stable relationship/friendships/family life, healthy hobbies and not-too-limited finances, is probably much different than what I experienced.
  - blurbleblurble 3y ago
    Being burnt out and broke is a whole other level of harrowing.
strogonoff 3y ago
Thanks Drew (in case you’re reading HN during this time). Completely unrelatedly (I haven’t read this post at that point), earlier this week I upped from low monthly to medium yearly plan on Sourcehut. For me burnout is tricky in the sense that it can get sticky and spiral out of control, and depend on external environment. What helped me get out of the last one is being reminded that other people to some degree depend on me completing something and moving to a city I like.
brianzelip 3y ago
Best wishes Drew
Trasmatta 3y ago
> One day, sitting at my workstation, I stopped typing, stared blankly at the screen for a few seconds, and a switch flipped in my head This was what it was like for me, but I also got filled with anger at the same time. Like my brain was doing everything it could to physically stop me from working. I took a week and a half off, but then came back and kept pushing. Now it feels even worse internally. I'm not sure what to do. I could take an extended leave maybe, but time off doesn't seem to be helping. I can sort of push through it right now, but I feel like the more I do that the worse it'll eventually get. I'm in therapy and doing most of the self care things I can. It's keeping me afloat.
- Paul-Craft 3y ago
  I was there. I took the time off. I needed a year. Came back, got a job that felt meaningful, and things were great, until I got laid off recently lol
- capableweb 3y ago
  > I took a week and a half off, but then came back and kept pushing. Now it feels even worse internally. I'm not sure what to do. I could take an extended leave maybe, but time off doesn't seem to be helping. I can sort of push through it right now, but I feel like the more I do that the worse it'll eventually get. I tried this way for many years. Work hard for 4-5 years, then one year of relaxation and not working at all. Was fine during the year of relaxation, but at the end of the "work" cycle it always felt like shit. What I found working better is instead being able to have the cycle nailed down for each day + the weekends. Absolutely nothing after 4pm related to work, until I'm back at work in the morning next day. If I even start thinking thoughts related to it, I actively push them away, even if it would be helpful. In the beginning, it was really hard, as I'm used to just walking about and thinking about work. But now after a while, my brain automatically go into leisure mode at 4pm, and it finally feels like I get actual rest between leaving and coming back to work.
  - blensor 3y ago
    What also helped me a lot is to deactivate notifications of every communication channel ( email, messenger even the phone ) If notifications are turned on, it feels like other people have control over my mental state, because if an incoming email makes a ping it means that the person that just sent me a message caused my focus to shift in the work I am currently doing. Even if it feels minimal this compounds quite a lot over the course of a day.
robust-cactus 3y ago
I don't let myself burnout anymore. And I'd still say I work hard afterhours. I think what happened for me was disconnection from my sense of purpose mixed with being overworked leading to a "what's the point" vibe. 1. It probably took me 3-4 years in my late 20s, early 30s to recover. I just worked 9-5 then. 2. For me "work-life" balance as a concept was even causing me stress. It conflicted with my sense of purpose. My advice is to actively prune and reject advice/suggestions that weigh on you and disconnect you from who you are. 3. Jiro dreams of sushi as a movie saved me. It reminded me of who I wanted to be and what I want to do with my life. This 90 year old is a sushi making expert works day in and day out at his craft. How does he have that energy? This isn't about hustle it's about motivation, inspiration and deeper purpose. So I recommend finding yours or reconnecting with it! Ya def take a break, but I think there's often a deeper issue that's being exacerbated by being over worked. For me, I feel stronger than ever, but as others have shared, I feel like a different person. There's definitely pre-post self.
fiforpg 3y ago
I know some people who seem to be able to push forward year after year after year, maintaining this extremely productive pace and having no apparent issues with burnout. I wonder what makes this possible, is it based in a healthy upbringing, some innate brain properties, or did they just luck out into a local equilibrium of life-work?
- ornornor 3y ago
  I wonder if it isn’t like social media: you only see one facet of their lives. Maybe after work they don’t have the energy to do anything at all, or maybe their relationships are a mess as a result, etc. You just don’t know how much their “work persona” sucks out of them.
cyb_ 3y ago
Check out the book, "Burnout: The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle". https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/42397849 https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/42397849 I found it helpful in understanding the underlying causes of my own feelings of burnout. Also, don't be put off that the book says it's for women. The core lessons seem to apply to everyone.
yboris 3y ago
We all need a 4DWW - Four Day Work Week -- it will do wonders for very many people, and will likely help all of us.
- lnsru 3y ago
  You’re downvoted. But I had it. It is great to rest 3 days and do 4 days shit diving. Of course, pay was lover accordingly. I gladly would do 32 hours on 4 days instead of standard German 35 hours on 5 days. Paradoxically it is impossible to find 4 days position despite it is being advertised in ads as optional feature. No hiring manager is offering it for real.
  - yboris 3y ago
    The "of course, pay was lower" isn't what the 4DWW movement is fighting for though: it's about having 1 fewer day of work with no increase in hours and no loss of pay. Productivity has been going up for half a century now with profits going to the top rather than the workers. All workers deserve 1 day less of work. Us tech workers too: with modern tooling spinning up a new service (a server in production) can take under a day of work while in the past it would be weeks! We do so much more today per day than ever before yet don't usually have the option to work fewer days.
    - WuxiFingerHold 3y ago
      >> The "of course, pay was lower" isn't what the 4DWW movement is fighting for though: it's about having 1 fewer day of work with no increase in hours and no loss of pay. Then I vote for the 2 days movement. Joke aside, I wasn't aware that you were promoting a political movement. Sure, just working less and getting the same money prevents work related burnout. But that is not really big news and simply not feasible in this highly competitive world.
      - yboris 3y ago
        I suspect you've not been following the news! https://www.washingtonpost.com/wellness/2023/02/21/four-day-work-week-results-uk/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/wellness/2023/02/21/four-day-... A four-day workweek pilot was so successful most firms say they won’t go back Companies are choosing to keep the policy because it was better for the company too. Over 80% of the companies trialing 4DWW in one large sample chose to keep the policy!
grepLeigh 3y ago
"Caregiver burnout" is a flavor associated with prolonged stress and putting everyone else's needs above your own. If you're a people-pleaser, you'll probably flirt with this at some point in your life unless you deliberately prioritize your own joy, rest, and well-being.
underdeserver 3y ago
We really do have a mental energy meter. It doesn't seem to work like you'd intuitively think - Working doesn't necessarily spend it - seeing results, winning, can fill it up. Drudgery, working on a problem with high stakes and no clear idea of the right direction, having your hard work thrown away - those drain it. Meeting people can either drain it or fill it, depending on whether you're an introvert or not, how much you're listened to and how much you have to get off your chest. Physical illness can drain it immensely. Eating, physically relaxing can fill it. I don't know how to deal with it. How do I explain to coworkers and bosses why my productivity is low, set expectations around a physical illness that has lasted two years so far? An going fight with a neighbor or spouse? It's too hard sometimes. I got nothing. Guess the only thing we can do is keep our chins up and hope for the better times to come soon.
- grensley 3y ago
  In my experience the real killer is doing difficult, but low value work. It's particularly hard at startups, because every "pivot" is just that: a lot of hard work being discarded. You can try to rationalize it like "we learned something" or "at least we're not on that path anymore", but there's still a very real mental cost.
  - whstl 3y ago
    True, but I think it depends on the people involved. Some of us are ok with discarding a few months of hard work, and once even two years. Others are not. I don’t know if this can be taught, but I can do it without rationalization. On the other hand, some of my previous coworkers left companies and had to enter therapy because of that.
- kayodelycaon 3y ago
  Being bipolar, I am acutely aware of managing mental energy. I’m constantly running on the edge of my limit to be functional in society. I can’t borrow energy from tomorrow. I borrow from the next fours. It seems to be impossible to explain this. People just don’t get it. They are so used to having nearly infinite reserve capacity and assume everyone else does too. I have none. Every time I run out of energy, it’s laziness, carelessness, or a dozen other moral failings because I can’t possibly be different from them. Fortunately, I’ve been able to convince people I’m doing my best and they are willing to accept something they don’t understand.
el_nahual 3y ago
An autobiographical observation about burnout which perhaps can help someone. I enjoy working hard. Long hours, difficult problems, etc etc. On some occasions this has resulted with me either flirting with burnout or actually experiencing it. Crucially, not always. The difference between burnout and just tiredness has, in my experience, been people. Situations that (could)/result in burnout are those in which work is coupled with a recurring negative social interaction at work. A work relationship that results in feeling insecure and vulnerable. In my case these have been: 1. Working with a "nice guy" that nonetheless tears down your work, making you question your value/worth or value of your work. 2. Working with someone with a very fragile ego that requires walking on eggshells, or even just avoiding collaborating with him/her in order to avoid conflict. So for me, burnout has been much more about the social element. And crucially, when that negative social element is not there, hard work can be the most invigorating feeling in the world (not hyperbole). The only cure I've found for avoiding burnout when working with a person with whom I just don't click has been to quit or fire them. It has little to do with the hours put in.
low_tech_love 3y ago
Most of the time when I read something like this, the responses gravitate around ”I took X weeks off, it was really good, you should do it.” I want to point out that the problem is unfortunately much worse and more complicated than that. I won’t even mention the many people who can’t do that, period (because their job does not have that affordance and/or they are the main/only source of income for the family). But even those who in theory could, the point is that some of the worse consequences come subtly and invisibly. Many of those who pat you on the back and say ”hey bro, take a week off” are silently judging you after you do that. Many might even be actively using that to get an edge on you. Those who are still on the team for that week will invariably ask themselves ”where is that guy when I need him” or ”why can’t he just take the pressure like I do?”. Then three months later after the dirt has settled you find yourself in the wrong end of a ”sudden downsizing”. Unfortunately we as a society don’t deal with depression with honesty and seriousness; most of the time all we say is ”you gotta take care of yourself” as if the blame/weight of the entire thing is on the person. Maybe it is? I don’t know. But personally, the only thing that really helps me when I have my events is to remember: it’s a war out there, most people are not my friends, but I have the strength to win, and I can do it. I’ve survived so far and I’ll survive again.
bradlys 3y ago
I’m sitting here on the subway to meet up with friends in nyc. It’s been almost a year since I left my last job. Almost two years since my divorce. I quit my life in SF and tried to restart. Thinking - maybe I can find a new partner if I explore the entire world. (Nope - still as unable to get a date as I was when I met my ex) Maybe I’ll find a job that will be better. Won’t know though cause I can’t bother myself to do more than a few leetcode problems every week instead of the required 40+ you need to do to be ready to modern interviewing. I’m just burning through dwindling savings as I lost a huge amount after I got divorced (bad financial decisions poured on by not being reliable for anyone but myself). I’m not sure when I’ll go back to work or solve any problem but my standards for everything are higher. In some ways - I’d rather die than go back to the miserable grind. I could only justify it because I was married but now I can’t at all.
- asnyder 3y ago
  Grinds are temporary, death is permanent. May be useful to talk to someone to help. Sometimes savings can be more of a hinderance as it allows you to extend this moment and dwell in the negative space. Hopefully the friends you met up with can help you break away from this thinking for a brief moment. Definitely don't push off counseling, always nice to have a listening ear.
topologie 3y ago
I hope this helps anyone suffering from burnout (and other types of pain...): https://www.shinzen.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/art_painprocessingalg.pdf https://www.shinzen.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/art_painp... Not necessarily a methodology/technique to avoid burnout itself, but rather a kind of "algorithm" that helps reduce the suffering that comes from it. (It's technically a manual for physical pain, but I found that it works just as well for things like burnout...)

304 points by emerongi 3y ago

Talking about it is good. Rest well and we'll see you when you're ready.

I never get tired of hearing people say publicly that they are tired, need a break, and will put themselves first for the foreseeable. I hope that this continues to normalise self care and counter balance the hustle culture.

throwaway71271 3y ago
there is a saying in my country: to get a nut tight: Tighten it until it loosens, then back off a quarter turn. As it is pointed in the article, it really creeps up on you, and it is much harder to 'back off quarter turn' when the nut is broken.
- streakfix 3y ago
  How do you tighten a nut until it loosens?
  - viraptor 3y ago
    I read it as "something gives". Either you strip the tread or the nut breaks, or something else unexpected/unwanted happens.
    - tremon 3y ago
      I've never been able to strip the tread off a nut using just the strength of my bear hands (:p). Sure, I've over-tightened screws into nylon walls plugs or even into wood. But to damage a nut just by overfastening the bolt? I'd need a pneumatic drill at least.
      - lelanthran 3y ago
        > I've never been able to strip the tread off a nut using just the strength of my bear hands (:p). I have. small metric 10 nut. Also, with almost no effort you can strip the threads in spark plugs holes (aluminium head).
        doubled112 3y ago
        Different, but I have a habit of breaking valve cover bolts too, with just a screwdriver even. Click, swear, back it off a quarter turn. Often with vice grips. I've been lucky so far. Not great either is the way my impact gun is designed. You put it down on the wrong side, and the direction slider gets pushed so you're ramming it back on instead of taking it off.
  - nmz 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - qorrect 3y ago
      Lefty righty, tighty loosey, am I doing it ?
  - 6nf 3y ago
    You break something
- ChuckNorris89 3y ago
  That was my experience exactly. Burnout creeps on you without you realizing and only once it stops and you disconnect completely do you realize the mess you were.
sph 3y ago
On the other hand, I always get irritated when I hear "yeah, I know I'm pushing too hard, but if I burn out I'll take a holiday." Ha ha. You have not known burnout. It has taken me a drastic break from work, isolation, depression, thousands of pounds in therapy, and 18 months to recover from work-related burn out. I did not write a single line of code for a year. I am better now, maybe even better than I've ever been in my life, but I am a completely different person. There is a pre-burnout self, and a post-burnout one. (I don't code after work anymore. I do not enjoy cutting edge tech as much as I did just a couple years ago. I have become allergic to corporate life.) Those that joke about burnout have no idea what they are talking about.
- ravenstine 3y ago
  Burnout that occurs outside of work isn't talked about enough, maybe because it's mainly restricted to a certain kind of individual in specific kinds of fields like programming. Programming itself can lead to burnout because it provides a promise of infinite possibilities, and some of us get fooled into thinking we are equally as capable as the code itself. This leads to time that could otherwise be spent getting in touch with our humanity instead being spent on countless side projects, many of which we secretly hope will lead to wealth and prestige. Virtually all of those projects will fail or reach a dead end; that may not seem like a big deal in your early 20s, but the realization of repeated failure and time spent in relative solitude can take it's toll once you hit your 30s. The burnout feeling occurs, not because you are doing anything functionally different from when you were addicted to code, but because the novelty eventually fades and it becomes clear how short life is. Worse yet, you may have nothing to show for all your effort. One may even have had their social skills atrophy. Burnout can have physiological components, but most of it is mental. The negative effects of having a passion for code may lead to a sense of worthlessness. Feeling like you are as insignificant as a smudge of excrement on a piece of tissue surging out to sea can be pretty demotivating.
  - ChuckNorris89 3y ago
    >and some of us get fooled into thinking we are equally as capable as the code itself IMHO burnout as a SW dev isn't because of the coding itself, I find that the easiest part to deal with. It's the constant pressure to stay up to date an an industry that changes faster and faster and a job market that get more and more competitive. It's the constant sprinting towards more and more ambitious arbitrary deadlines set by sales or management using half-assed Agile and Scrum processes imposed onto you by clueless higher-ups. It's constant interruptions and multitasking in several tools you have to keep up with throughout the day: chats, calls, emails, Jira, etc. while also being expected to focus and code. It's the exhausting and time consuming interview practices. It's the idiotic and overpaid management and execs who treat you like a disposable resource and thinks colorful beanbags, ping-pong and foosball tables would make me want to spend 2h commuting to the office every day to sit in a noisy open office with a view of a concrete parking lot, and that pictures of employees in funny situations with moustaches drawn on them and turned into memes and plastered around the office means a "friendly" atmosphere and it's what I would enjoy instead of WFH in peace and quiet (maybe I'm too old or something but I can't stand my workplace treating me, a professional in my 30's, like I'm a childish toddler looking to join some kindergarten playground). Coding and debugging alone is very pleasant for me, it's why I became a dev, but it's everything else related to this industry that breaks my will to live.
brianjking 3y ago
We must also normalize the ability to TAKE THE TIME, not just normalize acknowledging the need.

limaoscarjuliet 3y ago

I feel you. The part that resonates with me the most is we have a choice to make: give up or fight. Our time will pass either way. I had many of these moments in my life and, after some hesitation, always picked the get up and fight mode. I hope you will too. It wil get us places for sure. Good luck with your life, carry on!

lower 3y ago
Yeah, but then you have: It seems like every week or two this year, another crisis presented itself, each manageable in isolation. I've had this happen and it really grinds you down when you work full-out for months and, just when you think you've contained all the crises, the next one drops.
bitschubser_ 3y ago
I don't know if I may misunderstand you, but from personal experience this approach is quite risky, all these little "get up" fights will compound, wear you off and lead to a hard collapse in the end, small patching will just prolong the crash. It's important to see (with help) when the "fight" is just not worth it anymore and sometimes pulling the emergency break is the best thing to do, jeahh you'll may hurt/disappoint others when doing so, but for the sake of your own health and sanity this is quite often the better choice (imho).
- limaoscarjuliet 3y ago
  In my case, with every new challenge I try not to repeat mistakes of the past. I change things and sometimes for good. And yes, need a break every now and then!
Aeolun 3y ago
It’s weird, but I’ve gone the opposite way. Whenever I get to the point where it’s ‘lie down and give up, or get up and fight’, I feel like it’s perfectly fine for me to just lie down and see if I’ll have motivation another day.

DotaFan 3y ago

I am always on a verge on burnout, and somehow I'm balancing that well, I suppose..

dgb23 3y ago
Don’t be afraid to really relax and do stuff that has no meaning or goal.

mirekrusin 3y ago

This is not a burnout, this is depression. Possibly one of most valuable things you can do is to focus on better quality of questions you're asking yourself in your inner dialogue when thinking about anything throughout the day. I hate to say it but I do believe it'll help you a lot in this situation - brainwash yourself by listening to motivational speakers like Napoleon Hill, Brian Tracy, Tony Robins or any others (pick your best, it doesn't matter; ask GPT4 for a list if you want to explore more). Do something random outside like going cycling on some local meetup. If you're unable to do this kind of stuff, your top priority is to take professional help asap.

dgb23 3y ago
Burnout is just a form of depression packed into a term that seems more acceptable.
- mirekrusin 3y ago
  Ok, I actually take it back, if it was depression the author wouldn't say they'll take time to rest - this text does look like burnout indeed. Burnout and depression are two different things (different cause, some similar/overlaping but still distinct symptoms and different kind of treatment).
- aeim 3y ago
  I'd phrase as 'depression is burnout of the self', or 'burnout is depression of non-self contexts' such as alternate, or specialist contexts, per project/ profession, etc. (with self simply being the default context)
andyjohnson0 3y ago
> Possibly one of most valuable things you can do is to focus on better quality of questions you're asking yourself in your inner dialogue when thinking about anything throughout the day. +1 for this. Learning how to "talk" to yourself with honesty, but also self-compassion, is so important. I wish someone had explained this to me earlier in my life because its a difficult thing to learn and I still struggle with it. Its so easy to deceive or distract yourself when thinking about your own life.

orzig 3y ago

I’m very thankful to people who write these things, because they helped me recognize burn out and address it when I was early in my career. I would not have handled it at all well without the pattern matching

jimsimmons 3y ago

I’ve probably been burntout for a while. Haven’t had a vacation in a long time, haven’t been making the progress I want to be etc At the same time chalking it all up to “burnout” seems dishonest. I’ve not been doing a good job —- I lack general discipline, have been on and off abusing drugs, been too alone and existential. I don’t think an abrupt break is going to fix these things so I stay put, trying to fix underlying issues or make enough progress to be actually mindless on a vacation someday.

mmmmmbop 3y ago
FWIW, I felt the same, and taking a few months off helped me tremendously. Not that I'm fully healed or anything, but it gave me some new perspectives, and it feels like I've regained some of my mental health.

a_bonobo 3y ago

>Dependable Drew, an ear to listen, a shoulder to cry on I used to be the same as a student - always trying to fix all those broken people around me, somehow attracting mostly mentally-ill friends, visiting too many in psychiatric wards. I thought I was doing good, but I was just letting myself get dragged down. I haven't fixed a single one of their problems, I just had my energy pulled out of me. Looks like OP put himself into a similar position to mine... I learned the hard way that I am the captain of my own ship, others' ships will happily pull mine down to the bottom of the ocean. I have a responsibility towards my own ship and walked away.

everdrive 3y ago
I used to be in a similar situation. It hurts because I really do want to help people. Often, you're not helping, but merely building co-dependence, or otherwise teaching them to rely on people. (ie, you, or you next enabler.) Pure sympathy really ends up not being the best way to help people. Setting boundaries, and tough love often go much further to actually changing behaviors.
ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
It's a long, sad story (get your hanky), but I have spent my entire adult life, in a fellowship that includes some of the most dangerous, selfish, and just downright nuts people on earth. I.e. really interesting and fun people. But ones that often have little respect for personal boundaries. I have learned to enforce my boundaries. I don't expect other to respect them. At the same time, I have found that I don't need to use nukes to enforce my boundaries. Very often, a simple "No, I won't do that." is sufficient, as opposed "OMG! Get the hell away from me, you maniac!". Also, and I feel this is a lesson that many folks these days, could benefit from, if I initiate a relationship with hostility, it is likely to forevermore be a non-productive relationship. It usually costs me nothing, to initiate relationships with courtesy. The other party may still be an uncouth bastard, but control of the future of the relationship is now in my hands; not theirs. I can still maintain courtesy, and am able to avoid dunking the relationship immediately.

Beaver117 3y ago

I burned out last year, luckily I had the funds to quit without anything lined up and been semi-retired ever since. I'd like to work again but modern software jobs ask for too much. Why should I dedicate so much of my life and brainpower to 24/7 oncall and managing development? No amount of money is worth the stress.

mmmmmbop 3y ago
As someone who is considering doing the same, would you mind sharing how many times your yearly expenses you consider enough to quit without anything lined up?
- sph 3y ago
  I live in London. I burned through my entire savings of £60,000 in a year and a half of burnout recovery and therapy; 1.5x my yearly expenditure. I am broke now, and recovered. It is the best money I have spent. I do not want to imagine where would I be without that money stashed away.
- dividuum 3y ago
  Not OP, but I quit 10 years ago without a clear plan with around 1.5 years of runway. Did a bit of freelancing after that and now run my own company. I'm usually more on the risk-averse side of things, but that felt safe enough for me.
  - ornornor 3y ago
    How did you find these freelance gigs and what were your tasks?
    - dividuum 3y ago
      Exclusively from previous work relationships. Mostly around network infrastructure stuff (BGP automation) and e-commerce full-stack development and operation. I explicitly only took gigs that where very clear in scope to ensure I had enough time to try out my own ideas.

ushakov 3y ago

Drew needs a therapist

ornornor 3y ago
Most people do. Maybe you do too.
- ushakov 3y ago
  I have one, luckily

universesquid 3y ago

It's really a shocker to me whenever I see people in obviously difficult situations worry about their productivity. Like is this really what modern life has become? Build whole identities around being productive and doing a good job to an extent that someone who sees a foundation of their life falling apart is feeling guilt about not doing enough for their work.

racktash 3y ago
Some people definitely do fixate (and derive a sense of purpose, whether that's good or not) from perpetual productivity improvement – I think this is why online productivity and life hack gurus are so popular. But for some, it's all about looking like they care about productivity because that's what their job or manager expects. Certainly this was the case for me. Throughout my twenties, I pushed myself to be more "productive" in my career because I thought I had to look like a go-getter to the people who paid me. I put in extra hours and effort, and even enrolled in an online university course to further expand my skills (resulting in me having next to zero free time!). I still like to work hard and do good work, but I no longer push myself to be very good at everything I do. "Competent" is my aim. Doing my paid work to a standard that is "good enough" is not only easier on my stress levels, but my managers continue to report satisfaction with my work.
whstl 3y ago
It's probably not the same experience for everyone, but when I was burned out or depressed, I "had" to cling to the things I could still have some control. Being productive was the main one. It also would distract me from the other issues. Of course, excessive work was causing most of the issues, now it's easy to see. I got burned out when I wasn't in a good place. Having the same experience when you have a stable relationship/friendships/family life, healthy hobbies and not-too-limited finances, is probably much different than what I experienced.
- blurbleblurble 3y ago
  Being burnt out and broke is a whole other level of harrowing.

strogonoff 3y ago

Thanks Drew (in case you’re reading HN during this time). Completely unrelatedly (I haven’t read this post at that point), earlier this week I upped from low monthly to medium yearly plan on Sourcehut. For me burnout is tricky in the sense that it can get sticky and spiral out of control, and depend on external environment. What helped me get out of the last one is being reminded that other people to some degree depend on me completing something and moving to a city I like.

brianzelip 3y ago

Best wishes Drew

Trasmatta 3y ago

> One day, sitting at my workstation, I stopped typing, stared blankly at the screen for a few seconds, and a switch flipped in my head This was what it was like for me, but I also got filled with anger at the same time. Like my brain was doing everything it could to physically stop me from working. I took a week and a half off, but then came back and kept pushing. Now it feels even worse internally. I'm not sure what to do. I could take an extended leave maybe, but time off doesn't seem to be helping. I can sort of push through it right now, but I feel like the more I do that the worse it'll eventually get. I'm in therapy and doing most of the self care things I can. It's keeping me afloat.

Paul-Craft 3y ago
I was there. I took the time off. I needed a year. Came back, got a job that felt meaningful, and things were great, until I got laid off recently lol
capableweb 3y ago
> I took a week and a half off, but then came back and kept pushing. Now it feels even worse internally. I'm not sure what to do. I could take an extended leave maybe, but time off doesn't seem to be helping. I can sort of push through it right now, but I feel like the more I do that the worse it'll eventually get. I tried this way for many years. Work hard for 4-5 years, then one year of relaxation and not working at all. Was fine during the year of relaxation, but at the end of the "work" cycle it always felt like shit. What I found working better is instead being able to have the cycle nailed down for each day + the weekends. Absolutely nothing after 4pm related to work, until I'm back at work in the morning next day. If I even start thinking thoughts related to it, I actively push them away, even if it would be helpful. In the beginning, it was really hard, as I'm used to just walking about and thinking about work. But now after a while, my brain automatically go into leisure mode at 4pm, and it finally feels like I get actual rest between leaving and coming back to work.
- blensor 3y ago
  What also helped me a lot is to deactivate notifications of every communication channel ( email, messenger even the phone ) If notifications are turned on, it feels like other people have control over my mental state, because if an incoming email makes a ping it means that the person that just sent me a message caused my focus to shift in the work I am currently doing. Even if it feels minimal this compounds quite a lot over the course of a day.

robust-cactus 3y ago

I don't let myself burnout anymore. And I'd still say I work hard afterhours. I think what happened for me was disconnection from my sense of purpose mixed with being overworked leading to a "what's the point" vibe. 1. It probably took me 3-4 years in my late 20s, early 30s to recover. I just worked 9-5 then. 2. For me "work-life" balance as a concept was even causing me stress. It conflicted with my sense of purpose. My advice is to actively prune and reject advice/suggestions that weigh on you and disconnect you from who you are. 3. Jiro dreams of sushi as a movie saved me. It reminded me of who I wanted to be and what I want to do with my life. This 90 year old is a sushi making expert works day in and day out at his craft. How does he have that energy? This isn't about hustle it's about motivation, inspiration and deeper purpose. So I recommend finding yours or reconnecting with it! Ya def take a break, but I think there's often a deeper issue that's being exacerbated by being over worked. For me, I feel stronger than ever, but as others have shared, I feel like a different person. There's definitely pre-post self.

fiforpg 3y ago

I know some people who seem to be able to push forward year after year after year, maintaining this extremely productive pace and having no apparent issues with burnout. I wonder what makes this possible, is it based in a healthy upbringing, some innate brain properties, or did they just luck out into a local equilibrium of life-work?

ornornor 3y ago
I wonder if it isn’t like social media: you only see one facet of their lives. Maybe after work they don’t have the energy to do anything at all, or maybe their relationships are a mess as a result, etc. You just don’t know how much their “work persona” sucks out of them.

cyb_ 3y ago

Check out the book, "Burnout: The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle". https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/42397849 https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/42397849 I found it helpful in understanding the underlying causes of my own feelings of burnout. Also, don't be put off that the book says it's for women. The core lessons seem to apply to everyone.

yboris 3y ago

We all need a 4DWW - Four Day Work Week -- it will do wonders for very many people, and will likely help all of us.

lnsru 3y ago
You’re downvoted. But I had it. It is great to rest 3 days and do 4 days shit diving. Of course, pay was lover accordingly. I gladly would do 32 hours on 4 days instead of standard German 35 hours on 5 days. Paradoxically it is impossible to find 4 days position despite it is being advertised in ads as optional feature. No hiring manager is offering it for real.
- yboris 3y ago
  The "of course, pay was lower" isn't what the 4DWW movement is fighting for though: it's about having 1 fewer day of work with no increase in hours and no loss of pay. Productivity has been going up for half a century now with profits going to the top rather than the workers. All workers deserve 1 day less of work. Us tech workers too: with modern tooling spinning up a new service (a server in production) can take under a day of work while in the past it would be weeks! We do so much more today per day than ever before yet don't usually have the option to work fewer days.
  - WuxiFingerHold 3y ago
    >> The "of course, pay was lower" isn't what the 4DWW movement is fighting for though: it's about having 1 fewer day of work with no increase in hours and no loss of pay. Then I vote for the 2 days movement. Joke aside, I wasn't aware that you were promoting a political movement. Sure, just working less and getting the same money prevents work related burnout. But that is not really big news and simply not feasible in this highly competitive world.
    - yboris 3y ago
      I suspect you've not been following the news! https://www.washingtonpost.com/wellness/2023/02/21/four-day-work-week-results-uk/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/wellness/2023/02/21/four-day-... A four-day workweek pilot was so successful most firms say they won’t go back Companies are choosing to keep the policy because it was better for the company too. Over 80% of the companies trialing 4DWW in one large sample chose to keep the policy!

grepLeigh 3y ago

"Caregiver burnout" is a flavor associated with prolonged stress and putting everyone else's needs above your own. If you're a people-pleaser, you'll probably flirt with this at some point in your life unless you deliberately prioritize your own joy, rest, and well-being.

underdeserver 3y ago

We really do have a mental energy meter. It doesn't seem to work like you'd intuitively think - Working doesn't necessarily spend it - seeing results, winning, can fill it up. Drudgery, working on a problem with high stakes and no clear idea of the right direction, having your hard work thrown away - those drain it. Meeting people can either drain it or fill it, depending on whether you're an introvert or not, how much you're listened to and how much you have to get off your chest. Physical illness can drain it immensely. Eating, physically relaxing can fill it. I don't know how to deal with it. How do I explain to coworkers and bosses why my productivity is low, set expectations around a physical illness that has lasted two years so far? An going fight with a neighbor or spouse? It's too hard sometimes. I got nothing. Guess the only thing we can do is keep our chins up and hope for the better times to come soon.

grensley 3y ago
In my experience the real killer is doing difficult, but low value work. It's particularly hard at startups, because every "pivot" is just that: a lot of hard work being discarded. You can try to rationalize it like "we learned something" or "at least we're not on that path anymore", but there's still a very real mental cost.
- whstl 3y ago
  True, but I think it depends on the people involved. Some of us are ok with discarding a few months of hard work, and once even two years. Others are not. I don’t know if this can be taught, but I can do it without rationalization. On the other hand, some of my previous coworkers left companies and had to enter therapy because of that.
kayodelycaon 3y ago
Being bipolar, I am acutely aware of managing mental energy. I’m constantly running on the edge of my limit to be functional in society. I can’t borrow energy from tomorrow. I borrow from the next fours. It seems to be impossible to explain this. People just don’t get it. They are so used to having nearly infinite reserve capacity and assume everyone else does too. I have none. Every time I run out of energy, it’s laziness, carelessness, or a dozen other moral failings because I can’t possibly be different from them. Fortunately, I’ve been able to convince people I’m doing my best and they are willing to accept something they don’t understand.

el_nahual 3y ago

An autobiographical observation about burnout which perhaps can help someone. I enjoy working hard. Long hours, difficult problems, etc etc. On some occasions this has resulted with me either flirting with burnout or actually experiencing it. Crucially, not always. The difference between burnout and just tiredness has, in my experience, been people. Situations that (could)/result in burnout are those in which work is coupled with a recurring negative social interaction at work. A work relationship that results in feeling insecure and vulnerable. In my case these have been: 1. Working with a "nice guy" that nonetheless tears down your work, making you question your value/worth or value of your work. 2. Working with someone with a very fragile ego that requires walking on eggshells, or even just avoiding collaborating with him/her in order to avoid conflict. So for me, burnout has been much more about the social element. And crucially, when that negative social element is not there, hard work can be the most invigorating feeling in the world (not hyperbole). The only cure I've found for avoiding burnout when working with a person with whom I just don't click has been to quit or fire them. It has little to do with the hours put in.

low_tech_love 3y ago

Most of the time when I read something like this, the responses gravitate around ”I took X weeks off, it was really good, you should do it.” I want to point out that the problem is unfortunately much worse and more complicated than that. I won’t even mention the many people who can’t do that, period (because their job does not have that affordance and/or they are the main/only source of income for the family). But even those who in theory could, the point is that some of the worse consequences come subtly and invisibly. Many of those who pat you on the back and say ”hey bro, take a week off” are silently judging you after you do that. Many might even be actively using that to get an edge on you. Those who are still on the team for that week will invariably ask themselves ”where is that guy when I need him” or ”why can’t he just take the pressure like I do?”. Then three months later after the dirt has settled you find yourself in the wrong end of a ”sudden downsizing”. Unfortunately we as a society don’t deal with depression with honesty and seriousness; most of the time all we say is ”you gotta take care of yourself” as if the blame/weight of the entire thing is on the person. Maybe it is? I don’t know. But personally, the only thing that really helps me when I have my events is to remember: it’s a war out there, most people are not my friends, but I have the strength to win, and I can do it. I’ve survived so far and I’ll survive again.

bradlys 3y ago

I’m sitting here on the subway to meet up with friends in nyc. It’s been almost a year since I left my last job. Almost two years since my divorce. I quit my life in SF and tried to restart. Thinking - maybe I can find a new partner if I explore the entire world. (Nope - still as unable to get a date as I was when I met my ex) Maybe I’ll find a job that will be better. Won’t know though cause I can’t bother myself to do more than a few leetcode problems every week instead of the required 40+ you need to do to be ready to modern interviewing. I’m just burning through dwindling savings as I lost a huge amount after I got divorced (bad financial decisions poured on by not being reliable for anyone but myself). I’m not sure when I’ll go back to work or solve any problem but my standards for everything are higher. In some ways - I’d rather die than go back to the miserable grind. I could only justify it because I was married but now I can’t at all.

asnyder 3y ago
Grinds are temporary, death is permanent. May be useful to talk to someone to help. Sometimes savings can be more of a hinderance as it allows you to extend this moment and dwell in the negative space. Hopefully the friends you met up with can help you break away from this thinking for a brief moment. Definitely don't push off counseling, always nice to have a listening ear.

topologie 3y ago

I hope this helps anyone suffering from burnout (and other types of pain...): https://www.shinzen.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/art_painprocessingalg.pdf https://www.shinzen.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/art_painp... Not necessarily a methodology/technique to avoid burnout itself, but rather a kind of "algorithm" that helps reduce the suffering that comes from it. (It's technically a manual for physical pain, but I found that it works just as well for things like burnout...)