14 ms·

Transcending My Father's Abuse

210 points by exolymph 3y ago

skc 3y ago
One of the cruel ironies of the human experience is that making children is almost as easy as breathing. Not everyone that can procreate, should. Stories of parental abuse enrage me to hyperventilation and I had a good childhood.
dmbche 3y ago
Thanks to the author for taking the time and effort to have a very heartfelt and deep dive into their personal life - especially on subjects this nuanced. Their comments on "hurt" rather than bad, and their feeling that they couldn't fight back unless they became "dirty", or just as bad as them, were especially resonant. Their comments about their dad living through the cultural revolution made me remember the scene in the Three Body Problem where Ye Wenjie confronts the three communist youths that had killed her father many years after the revolution, and they explain that their own suffering and how it brought along her fathers death.
- vals_pals_ 3y ago
  Hey, author here. Thank you so much for taking the time to write a thoughtful comment. I had no idea what the response to this essay would be, so I'm really grateful that you read it in the first place and that the essay moved you.
labrador 3y ago
I have a similar father and while I never expect to get an apology, I've found peace knowing it's about him and not me. I stopped personalizing it. He's still trapped in the craziness of the world and those who raised him, while I've found a way to manage it so I am not similarly crazy.
throwaway_abuse 3y ago
This hit too close to home that I couldn't finish reading it in a sitting. I had to walk around my apartment a couple of times waiting to relax before coming back to my computer. I have blanks in my memories too, where my dad told me he hit me (he apologized for it, like in OP). And I remember nothing after "the triggering incident", like in OP. I also have very bad trust issues now, to the point where it is hard for me to make friends if they insist on having opinions on my life. Relationships have never worked for me, because it takes me forever to open up. Childhood trauma sucks. Why people take their anger out on innocent kids just trying to understand how the world works in their own ways, is just beyond me. There's SOO many more positive and healthy ways to raise a child. And realizing that now makes me genuinely teary eyed about all the neural pathways in my brain that were formed or not formed as a result of my parents decisions. But I'm kind of glad to see so many of my friends being awesome parents, really caring for and listening to their kids. I'm lowkey excited for the next generation, who will be much more open about their thoughts and feelings, and probably more well adjusted as humans. My pet hypothesis is this will also why the current/next generation is much more open about sexuality / gender / identity, and I expect this to get only more nuanced as science understands more and as people learn to express more. But that's just something I cooked up. Anyone else feel this way?
- ternaryoperator 3y ago
  I too share your sentiments about the upcoming generation(s). The other thing I notice about them is that they're overall far more accepting about differences in race, sexual orientation, gender, etc.
  - code_biologist 3y ago
    I would broadly agree with your characterization, with a specific painful exception. In certain very left leaning American communities there is a guilt about or bias against cishet identities. The eager diagnosis of gender identity issues along with irreversible hormone and surgical treatments (great discussion from a former gender identity counselor in this Triggernometry interview [1]) constitute child abuse and medical malpractice in some instances. I’m a happy cis adult male. I liked painting my nails a lot as a kid. I’m glad my parents just set me up with nail polish and ventilated area instead of bringing sexual identity into it. [1] https://youtu.be/gbuGMbqjsSw https://youtu.be/gbuGMbqjsSw
    - Timon3 3y ago
      > I would broadly agree with your characterization, with a specific painful exception. In certain very left leaning American communities there is a guilt about or bias against cishet identities. No matter what topic, I always hear this, but I never see it. Could you share a few examples? > The eager diagnosis of gender identity issues along with irreversible hormone and surgical treatments (great discussion from a former gender identity counselor in this Triggernometry interview [1]) constitute child abuse and medical malpractice in some instances. But let's not forget the other side: the banning of gender-affirming care with irreversible puberties also constitutes child abuse and medical malpractice in some instances. The question is: which happens more often? And I have yet to see any data suggesting that your description is applicable in more than a handful of cases.
      - LawTalkingGuy 3y ago
        >> bias against cishet identities. > I always hear this, but I never see it. Could you share a few examples? Jobs. There are too many white, asian, and Indian males in my company, we're told. So we have to hire others preferentially now to balance out our numbers. Yet if a white male identifies as a woman there's a space for them. That sounds like an anti-"cishet" and racial bias. "It is no news that women are underrepresented in the tech industry and even more so in open source. That’s why we are proud to announce the news of the first-ever all-women Open Source Program Office (OSPO). The Comcast OSPO is a geographically, culturally, and technically diverse team of members who identify as women, and who are accelerating in open source leadership, community, compliance, and security. This presentation will discuss the challenges women face in open source and the dynamics of an inclusive team." Also like really shitty women's lib. > the banning of gender-affirming care [...] constitutes child abuse and medical malpractice in some instances. This is where the problem is; what's being banned, the stuff we're told never happens? Nobody is trying to stop appropriate surgery for children with developmental sexual disorders. Generally the DSD (Intersex) community knows what's appropriate treatment (or appropriate lack of treatment in many cases) for their specific conditions. The problem is happiness/depression issues being turned into surgical modifications. > irreversible puberties [...]. The question is: which happens more often? Puberty isn't child abuse. Pretending that there's an option to puberty is. Dr Marci Bowers - a leading pediatric gender doctor and surgeon says that - “every single child who was truly blocked at Tanner stage 2 has never experienced orgasm. I mean, it’s really about zero.” > I have yet to see any data suggesting that [the eager diagnosis of gender identity] is applicable in more than a handful of cases. Would you consider it proven if doctors routinely ignored pre-existing mental health issues such as autism, major trauma such as child sexual abuse and loss of a parent, and signs of existing issues such as "cutting", and anorexia. How about if the child's initial gender-identity contact admits to homophobia being their reason to seek transition? Susie Green CEO of Mermaids, "Jack’s favorite outfits were the tutu and the snow-white costume [...] that was fine but not for Dad [...] the conclusion of the sort of years up until she was about two was that I had a very sensitive quite a feminine little boy who was probably gay but Jack’s dad did not approve of our child’s effeminate behavior [...] at six she asked when she could have the operation to make her really a girl". We forget that children often asked to go to gay-conversion therapy, because they'd been brainwashed into thinking they were failed people with a horrible sinful condition that needed fixing. Jack Green was bullied into thinking that he had to make himself a girl if he wanted to choose his own interests. He "freely chose" to have cosmetic genital surgery to be allowed to be himself.
Waterluvian 3y ago
I lost my mom in my late teens. My parents were wonderful. Definitely well above average. I owe them so much. Something that I’ve been discovering is that I have two sections of blanks in my memory: the anguish of her being so sick for years, and the times she lost her cool with me. Both sets of memories have been trickling back decades later. I’m not sure what to share about it in particular, but in general it has been a fascinating and oftentimes horrible sensation. To suddenly have a memory activate for no apparent reason. I’m incredibly thankful that my wife is the person she is. I’ll randomly come into the room holding back tears and she immediately knows what it is and what to do. I think it’s important to speak these things aloud to help further normalize our talking about them.
inconceivable 3y ago
i think several decades ago, a lot of people didn't really want kids but had them anyway due to societal/family pressure. my parents were immigrants so the pressure was probably double. mentally both weak, and strong. a paradox. my dad used to hit me until one day i realized i was heavier than him, and threw him onto the couch and raised my fist to hit him, but didn't. he never tried again. my relationship with them is fine now (i'm middle aged) but i still don't listen to a god damn thing they say about life advice. quite frankly they don't know their ass from their elbow about how america really works and less than zero about growing up here. most immigrant parents don't, even though they pretend to, for some insane reason. as for me i'm not having kids, and i don't really do long-term monogamous relationships either (i date plenty). i'm sure my parents are disappointed but quite frankly i don't give a shit.
- deepfriedchokes 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - P_I_Staker 3y ago
    I'd be a terrible dad, and I aint got no kid
  - inconceivable 3y ago
    i'm not so sure about that. when i get super stressed it doesn't manifest in good ways. it's very easy to deal with this as a single person but not otherwise.
- RHSman2 3y ago
  Having kids forces you to change. And if you don’t you’ll turn into something that is a negative reaction to that stimuli. It’s a massive step to do that change, takes more courage than I have ever had to use anywhere in my life. I would have struggled to do that if I didn’t know what having a loving family meant (they gave me a North Star for love.)
throwaway093821 3y ago
As someone who similarly has Asian parents that have gone through their own trauma in life, this resonates with me. As a younger child, my parents would hit us with clothes hangers, as this was the only method of discipline that they knew at the time. I don't feel like they realize or acknowledge the effects of that. While interactions nowadays are rarely negative, I've resolved to cut of communication at some point in the future, after I've alleviated my own guilt by "repaying" them monetarily for all they've done in raising me. I get yelled at most days still, though. Most of the electronic devices I've owned over the years have been broken by my dad smashing it after getting frustrated over some aspect of schoolwork related to my usage of such devices. Curiously, this seems to happen after he's had a few drinks.
- isoprophlex 3y ago
  > While interactions nowadays are rarely negative, ... > I get yelled at most days still, though I get the feeling that most outside observers would still classify these interactions as abusive...
- lostapathy 3y ago
  > after I've alleviated my own guilt by "repaying" them monetarily for all they've done in raising me. You don’t owe them that. “They put a roof over my head and fed and clothed me” isn’t a parent doing good for their kids, it’s the minimum allowed by law. You make a choice when you have a child, and these costs are part of that choice.
snapetom 3y ago
"Of course this is Asian parents," I thought as I saw the Chinese characters. Every time I read something like this, it's a wave of sadness and empathy, then it's a wave of anger. I'm a generation older than the author, and went through a similar experience with my mother. I witnessed my cousin be thrown against the drywall so hard, he broke it. I'm convinced he has permanent brain damage today due to the abuse he suffered. I learned from my uncle recently that my aunt and my mother were the product of horrendous and similar abuse from my grandmother. My grandmother, who my mother made out to be a saint. Every fucking generation, this filial piety bullshit repeats itself.
- JKCalhoun 3y ago
  It's not just Asians though, but you probably know that.
  - snapetom 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - JKCalhoun 3y ago
      > Is it common in western cultures for abusers, who have been abused, to praise and speak highly of their abusers? Was that the criteria? I assumed we were talking about being beaten by your parents — of which I, non-Asian, know something about. (And parent was beaten by their parent....) (I've never given a shit about internet points.)
      - snapetom 3y ago
        Again I said the symptoms of abuse might be the same but the root causes are different. You blatantly ignore that.
        seattle_spring 3y ago
        Who was making any arguments against different “root causes”? As far as I can tell, no one was until you chimed in. Are you trying to say that non-Asians suffering emotional and physical abuse is somehow lesser because there are different “root causes”?
deleted 3y ago
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ketanmaheshwari 3y ago
My mom hit me badly for not being able to write 2 properly. It has been 40 years and I have not yet forgotten.
throwaway92333 3y ago
My parents aren't Asian (I'm not even from the US), but, still, this resonates with me. My conundrum is that I simply don't feel like I'd be able to cut off my parents, especially my mom. I simply can't imagine a world without her. I would feel lost without her. Even though she may have sexually abused me. Because in the end, who else do I have?
- nyanpasu64 3y ago
  In my case I'm too traumatized to survive and afford a roof over my head without relying on my earlier-abuser parents, even though I want to escape and live with a family of choice. Most things I try to do to change my circumstances results in overwhelming stress or even breaking down in tears, and none of them have been able to materially improve my living conditions or build towards a financially stable future.
- agumonkey 3y ago
  This is a deep question. Our parents represent too much and too deep stuff in our brains. All our childhood, birth, absolute love.. i struggle to understand how some people can easily cut their parents away. It feels like grief. Very hard problem to solve. Some therapists talk about adding distance as a compromise..
crazygringo 3y ago
If this post resonates with you, there are two books I highly recommend, both by the renowned psychologist Alice Miller [1]. The first is For Your Own Good (1981), in which she describes the "poisonous pedagogy" of emotional and physical abuse passed down from generation to generation, and how we minimize and turn a blind eye to it because we want to follow the 4th commandment "Honor thy father and thy mother" (or in this case, a Confucian equivalent) -- at tremendous cost to ourselves, our own children, and society at large. It is one of the most eye-opening books I have ever read. The second is her more recent The Body Never Lies: The Lingering Effects of Cruel Parenting (2005), which is more therapeutic and focused on how people's physical pain and sickness can dissipate when they are able to finally stand up for themselves and their own emotional needs, rather than continue to pretend their abusive parents were actually good. Alice Miller's first book, The Drama of the Gifted Child (1979) is her best-known, but in my opinion, the above two books show her understanding evolving to become even more sophisticated. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Miller_(psychologist) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Miller_(psychologist)
- browningstreet 3y ago
  Also: Gabor Mate. He’s got videos, interviews, books. He focuses on addictions and childhood trauma, but his latest book extends his research to society in a broader level. His work is essential.
- thenerdhead 3y ago
  > I keep hoping for a future where my dad and I call every few days, and I can tell him about the decisions I’m navigating or the opinions I actually hold, without him yelling at me when I deviate from his expectations. I find myself dreaming that one day, my dad will call me and tell me that he connected with his own memories of his parents, and now fully understands the magnitude of the pain I endured. We’ve undergone similar pains, he’ll tell me. He got hit for wanting meat, and I got hit for not washing my hands. I’m sorry for recycling that pain. The sad reality that Miller outlines in her most popular title is that you'll probably never receive this want even if you communicate it constantly. That book really hurt to read. But it is the truth.
- AdamCraven 3y ago
turtleyacht 3y ago
To the folks here, do you remember your childhoods at all? Of the memories you have gathered up, do the vivid ones center around loud, violent interactions (like yelling)? I ask because I don't remember a lot of my childhood, except some vivid memories around things being my fault. Being blamed for things. I love my parents. They did everything for me. But my memories of happiness are in photos and more recent events. Decades ago are just, well, empty. Take lots of pictures, y'all--and recordings! Thank-you.
- sva_ 3y ago
  I remember quite a lot about my childhood. You ask about yelling, I vividly remember how when my father shouted at me/my brothers, the glasses in the kitchen would vibrate against each other and make a clanking noise whenever he finished a sentence, and we'd just sit in silence. Sometimes even the doorbell would start making noise from his voice. But I also have a lot of good memories, and I can luckily say that my father has turned around when I got a bit older. I think my parents lacked the maturity to have children at their age.
  - turtleyacht 3y ago
    The maturity bit hits hard. I know some of my weaknesses, and as always I turn to books. But when they are childrens books and they have good advice--and I wanted them to be better at it than me--it's like, I didn't acquire these tools myself, either. When the books are teaching (or admonishing, in my case) both of us, it's better than nothing I guess.
- swader999 3y ago
  I don't have much memory before ten years old, in my fifties now.
  - turtleyacht 3y ago
    I have a picture of me standing in the snow, thick coat and the squares of a wood-and-paper door behind me. But I don't remember the floor inside, or the ceiling, or anything else. My own room, the environs around. Nothing else. I must have been just a couple years old, even.
leashless 3y ago
Trauma and Recovery by Judith Lewis Herman is the standard academic psychology reference text for understanding CPTSD. It is worth 5000 self help books.
- Aleksdev 3y ago
  Thanks! They have it on Audible for anyone else who is interested.
deleted 3y ago
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monero-xmr 3y ago
My father was quite abusive to myself and siblings, and now we all cut off contact, but he refuses to accept any responsibility for his actions. Everything is someone else’s fault, he’s the victim, everyone is teaming up against him, etc. If you take the checklist for narcissistic personality disorder he hits all of them spot-on. Really nothing you can do but become estranged and raise your own children better.
- tomcam 3y ago
  > we all cut off contact I had to do that too. Stay strong.
- fugalfervor 3y ago
  My mother has NPD. That disorder is very hard on the children. I am grateful to my wife, and for my son. We are doing things better for sure.
  - monero-xmr 3y ago
    Out of all the traits, I think an inability empathize - simply to put yourself in someone else’s shoes - is the defining characteristic. Whether you are dealing with a child, a spouse, a service worker, a friend - the afflicted cannot understand how someone else feels. The “me” focus is overarching and permeates all thoughts and actions. One memory sticks out that perfectly encompasses his malady, is when my wife cooked a big meal for a gathering which included in-laws, friends, and neighbors. When she announced dinner was going to be served, he filled a plate with food and ate by himself at the table, before anyone else had sat down or been served. When asked later why he did that, he came up with a few reasons which essentially were “I was hungry”. I’m leaving out all manner of physical, emotional, manipulative, financial abuse he inflicted but the above anecdote is such a pure distillation of the lack of social grace combined with intense self-indulgence.
  - squokko 3y ago
    I looked up NPD... what would you say is different between "having NPD" and "being a colossal asshole"?
mise_en_place 3y ago
The scariest thing about having abusive parents is that you end up becoming like them. It took me many years to understand why my relationships would all fail. In hindsight, I was emotionally abusive to a lot of my partners. I will not offer an apology for it, as that just feels hollow and empty. All I can say is that I am trying to be better.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- ted_bunny 3y ago
  Can you say more about how you leanred about that one? Feeling at square one.
  - faangguyindia 3y ago
    At some point you become self aware, for me it came after a girlfriend of 6 years just left one day. I went through lot of anxiety after that. But i realized where it was alll coming from, it's as if I always knew how to act better in hindsight but when I was facing the situation I almost always couldn't do anything good. Not that she wouldn't have left if I was good, people leave all time for whatever reasons. But I could still have been nicer to her I feel, she was also similar to me so it's not like she was always nice to me but I could have shown her better.
- knaik94 3y ago
  For some people, hearing an apology means something even if you feel like your words are hollow and empty. I had a difficult upbringing too, but I have never repeated the mistakes of my parents in my own relationships. I wonder if that difference is related to how early someone realizes that their parents shouldn't be treating them this way. It's harder to recognize certain behaviors when you don't know what to look for.
- aaplok 3y ago
  Could it be that you won't apologise because a part of you fears that the apology might be used against you? The recovery process will necessarily pass by trusting people again, and making yourself vulnerable to them. That is the only way you can experience that they behave like normal human beings who won't exploit your weaknesses.
jancsika 3y ago
tldr; Author should find a therapist if they haven't already. I can perfectly imagine that friend saying "you're making excuses for him," and the frustration both the friend and author have at not seeing the situation from the same vantage point. I can feel the friend's frustration at the gravity of the situation somehow not getting through fully to the author. (As well as the author's frustration for the friend not grokking the complexity of the relationship!) The thing is, there may well be feelings and contradictions that the author must-- when they are ready and willing-- sit with and somehow start to confront and understand, regardless of what those feelings are. As someone who hasn't dealt with physical abuse, not only would be it difficult to know how to help a close friend through those feelings, but there's a good chance I'd actively guide them away from confronting them. "You're nothing like him," or, "but you were just defending your sister," etc. I don't want a friend to feel those things! And even if I knew they need to go there, how in the world would I know when it's time or how to safely encourage them to confront them? There are things that feel wrong that are part of the right process, and plenty of things that feel right which don't help you heal. A therapist who specializes in child abuse can help the author by guiding them through this, with practical experience and without judgment.
throwawaylifez 3y ago
My dad would make me pick, the belt or the wooden spoon. I'd pick the belt because a) fuck him and b) it would be over faster. I used to think this was normal, that every kid got this. He'd punch me in the arm, in the chest, smack the back of my head to 'toughen me up'. One night I had a car accident, I called him from hospital (I was fine) he asked how the car was, how bad was the car? Who did I hit? It dawned on me that he'd never asked if I was ok. I hadn't said anything but "Dad I crashed the car". Years of abuse that I would hide and no one would know about, except my mother who put up with it and never stopped him. Now he has very serious dementia, in a care facility on his own, still healthy but completely not himself. He cries and my heart breaks. He asks me to help him die because he forgets who I am, but I remember everything.
- moneywoes 3y ago
  This this takes me back, having to lie in school and the library all the time about the cause for all bruises and cuts Didn't say a word, always felt the alternative of foster care was much worse Now, I'm paying for my mother's husband's rent Doesn't help that saying the word abuse has men ostracized in my community sigh
- hypertele-Xii 3y ago
  I got to choose the belt my dad would use to beat me with until I stopped crying and didn't make a sound. A wider belt had more mass to slap, but a thinner one stinged like a whip. Part of sadistic narcissists is building these mind games where you only get options for how to lose, never any to win, so you feel helpless and trapped. The only winning move is not to play.
  - inconceivable 3y ago
    my dad didn't use tools but if given the choice i'd probably have flipped a coin as a fuck you.
thenerdhead 3y ago
They fuck you up, your mum and dad. They may not mean to, but they do. They fill you with the faults they had And add some extra, just for you. -Philip Larkin, This Be The Verse
- throwawaylifez 3y ago
  They tuck you up, your Mum and Dad. They read you Peter Rabbit, too. They give you all the treats they had And add some extra, just for you. They were tucked up when they were small, (Pink perfume, blue tobacco-smoke), By those whose kiss healed any fall, Whose laughter doubled any joke. Man hands on happiness to man. It deepens like a coastal shelf. So love your parents all you can And have some cheerful kids yourself. - Adrian Mitchell
- revolvingocelot 3y ago
  Given the sibling comment, I feel the parent needs some explanation, and the full poem! Larkin's poem came first, then the one in the sibling comment. *** They fuck you up, your mum and dad. They may not mean to, but they do. They fill you with the faults they had And add some extra, just for you. But they were fucked up in their turn By fools in old-style hats and coats, Who half the time were soppy-stern And half at one another’s throats. Man hands on misery to man. It deepens like a coastal shelf. Get out as early as you can, And don’t have any kids yourself. [0] [0] https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/48419/this-be-the-verse https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/48419/this-be-the-ver...
  - pengaru 3y ago
    I first heard this poem back in the late 90s in the form of an Anne Clark MP3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asVf8Zpw1tA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asVf8Zpw1tA
  - ilkke 3y ago
    Thanks for sharing. It took me way too long to 'get out' but I instinctively figured out I'm never having kids years before understanding why.
yarg 3y ago
My parents didn't like me as a person, I don't remember why. My mother once said to me "When you were a child I thought you'd grow up to be the next Adolph Hitler.". My father's version was "You couldn't have had a brother because we couldn't have another one of you.". Both punished me for not being the person they wanted me to be, not only was there very little overlap between my personality and what they wanted, there was bugger all overlap between what the two of them wanted individually. I ended up with a compromised façade of a personality that I'm still trying to peel away.
- ITB 3y ago
  Were you a troublemaker ?
  - kevviiinn 3y ago
    Are you victim blaming ?
  - isoprophlex 3y ago
    I vouched for this, also considering yargs comments... but this comment is on pretty thin ice. If you want to avoid that in the future, maybe it helps to make your comment more substantial instead of a single sentence which can easily be interpreted as malicious.
  - watwut 3y ago
    Unwanted kids often end up ones. They act out to get attention and because they needs are not met.
- yarg 3y ago
  Yo, dang: ITB got flagged and killed for a fair enough question, anyway I can vouch for his comment? ITB > Were you a troublemaker ? I might've been a bit of a disagreeable cunt, but I was never fucking Hitler.
  - yarg 3y ago
    Regarding the question of victim blaming (a comment also brutally murdered), sometimes it's a sane question to ask: if you never look into the contributing factors of a situation you can never stop it from happening again. Put your pretensions about the sacred nature of life aside and understand that children are a pain in the arse to have, and the disagreeable son of disagreeable parents even more so. But I maintain to this day that I was never really an arsehole. Also, if people stop having kids we're going just as extinct as if we have too many. Learn a bit of moderation. Considering that, we need to make having kids a more viable option than it is (and for a lot of the most useful people in society).
carabiner 3y ago
The apology she gets from her dad is extraordinary. I'm quite sure my parents will not apologize even on their deathbeds.
- toomanyrichies 3y ago
  33 years later and I'm still waiting for my dad to apologize for trying to convince 9-year-old me that he was justified in hitting my mom. Hearing the author's dad apologize to her made me happy (and, if I'm honest, a tad jealous). I hope the apology is genuine and, on top of that, he takes action to make amends.
- tomcam 3y ago
  I was abused by multiple family members. Zero acknowledgment, complete denial on their part. Made me doubt reality.
AnimalMuppet 3y ago
To the one who said he was sinking, in a post that was deleted[1]: First thing: Your condition is not your fault. I'm going to say that again, because you may need to hear it more than once: Your condition is not your fault. You don't need to feel shame for what it not your fault. It's misplaced. Please, overcome your reluctance to see a therapist. You deserve more than slowly sinking until you drown. You deserve to heal, to live a life that is actually living. Is there anyone at all, from work or a bar or a church or a neighbor or anyone you can turn to, and say, "Please help me find the strength to go to a therapist. Please go with me to the office the first time so I don't back out. Please help me remember that this is not my fault, and that I don't need to feel shame in seeking help." If there's nobody else, tell us your location. Someone here will probably be around, and willing to go with you, if you're willing to accept help in that way. Please, please, please. Find a way to get help. You're worth more than this. [1] Yes, I remember the author's username. I'm withholding it out of respect for their privacy.
knaik94 3y ago
One of the hardest truths I've had to accept is that pointing things out to them doesn't help. I have spend a lot of time and energy trying to rationalize their thinking in some way, but I think it's a fool's errand. I would similarly struggle to remember specific events, and at one point I even started voice recording them yelling. But showing them later only lead to more attempts at gaslighting and victim blaming. However, it was eye opening to see 3+ hour long runtimes on the voice memos that I couldn't remember anything about. Emotional abuse is every bit as harmful and affects your brain in the same way as other kinds of abuse. I hate people that try to apologize or convince you that they deserve forgiveness because they meant well or "they're your parents/family". It gets hard to push back without being disrespectful. And regardless of how old you get, the power dynamic of parent and child follows you. After a while you stop sharing completely. Separating their behavior from who they are as a person is the hardest thing I've had to do. But it's the first milestone in rebuilding a relationship and helped me seperate myself from their behavior. Being aware that their behavior is a consequence of their upbringing earned empathy from me, but I think forgiveness requires empathy in both directions. I think it's equally hard to accept that you hurt someone you love. Cultural norms can cause a lot of people to stay quiet, even if they decided to cut all contact, because talking poorly about your parents is seen as one of the worst things you can do. Regardless of what that thing was. I couldn't finish reading it in one sitting and I still had to skim parts of it. But I appreciate this being writted and shared publicly.
Aleksdev 3y ago
The crazy thing about this, is growing up and realizing that not everybody was raised like this. I sometimes see kids screaming back at there parents. If I had ever done something like that there would be a funeral.
- creakingstairs 3y ago
  > The crazy thing about this, is growing up and realizing that not everybody was raised like this. I just remember going to a friends place and being bewildered at overflowing trust and joy in their normal interactions. At first, I thought it was because I was there as a guest. But turns out they actually enjoyed being with each other. Really opened my eyes up to what a family could be.
streakfix 3y ago
Kids are like puppies, in that they will start following any pair of feet they see, since they don't have a frame of reference. You could argue that giving them a good frame of reference is the most important job of a parent.
obs_throwaway 3y ago
This was very hard to read through, and it brought up so many difficult memories from not just childhood but well into adulthood. My father would alternate between verbal abuse, physical abuse and the worst, emotional abuse. This started when I was very young, in primary school. Coming from an Asian family, we were all expected to be our best and to do our best in school, and getting anything less than the best grades was considered unacceptable. The consequences would often be harsh verbal beatdowns, curfews and extra classes. Physical punishments were common, and they would usually involve a cane, stick, or belt. I was convinced I was getting away easy because the 'crime' I had committed was always super-serious, a grave and punishable offence, something like telling a lie or not doing my chores, so yeah it would be the death penalty were it not for the large-hearted compassion of the man administering the punishment. It later turned more to emotional abuse as I had learned to start tuning out the pain and feelings and switch to a sort of zombie-mode when it came to the punishments. The emotional abuse would pain a lot longer and eventually started triggering mild to severe depressive episodes. As a male child we were told to tough it out and be a man. As an example, the expectation on me was that I would study in a particular medical program after school. I was not remotely interested in medicine, I didn't do well, and did not get through. I chose another discipline that I liked. I am in my fifties now, but I still remember this incident very well. The summary of the comments was "I am ashamed of you, you are a failure, you have made me lose face." That stung harder than I would have expected, and it still takes a bit of effort to let go. He had this way of changing his personality depending on the audience. To our close relatives, he would appear as the model father doing everything in his capacity (and beyond) to do good for his family, and that narrative was unquestioned and accepted by all. This was not completely without a basis, since he had supported his four siblings through a difficult childhood. The mask would drop when there were no outsiders around. Even after he died, everyone who came to pay their respects had good words to say. As I graduated, I decided to quickly move out of home and leave the country, so I took the first chance I got and left. The abuse turned mostly emotional after that, and there's a lot I am leaving out here. I still had to keep in touch with family due to other reasons but by then I had evolved my way of coping. The man is now dead and gone, I have not a single photo of him, nor any of the letters he had written to me. Later when I hit my late forties and would have a few deep conversations with mom, she would slowly tell me how hard it was to have lived with him for nearly six decades. She had many career opportunities that she was made to give up in order to "be the mother that a family needs", it was for the sake of external appearances. There was no physical abuse towards mom, but there was so much emotional abuse I couldn't deal with. Perhaps I took the cowards' way out and left the country, but in my early twenties I didn't know what to do. I still have dreams (nightmares?) where he and I are face to face, arguing vigorously, stirring up all the wrong emotions, but there's not much I can do about that except to remind myself that it's just a dream, and to let it go. So yeah, this type of abuse can really mess a person up. I'm coping now with proper guidance, letting go, meditating, and staying aware of unwholesome thoughts as they come up. It is a hard journey but I (we) need to make that decision and take charge of our feelings and actions.
steve76 3y ago
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agumonkey 3y ago
Anybody know about the innards of traumatic memory and flashes?
- infpeace 3y ago
  A simple summary is that the traumatic memories don’t get fully processed, which means the recalling of them is different to other memories. It’s possible to help these memories fully process, which changes the recall into something less vivid and overwhelming. For example with EMDR or somatic experiencing. Trauma and Memory by Peter Levine explores this, as well as The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk.
  - agumonkey 3y ago
    Thanks, gonna grab these books
oska 3y ago
Just an observation : The apology text from the father was unconditional. The reply from the daughter was conditional appreciation.
- tinycombinator 3y ago
  I think your observation is phrased in a way that implies the father has done something entirely selfless and the daughter has done something relatively selfish. The reply from the daughter was an attempt to set a clear boundary while also showing appreciation and support for his change. I think setting boundaries like this is a perfectly healthy thing to do, including/especially towards family members.
  - oska 3y ago
    I disagree that my comment was phrased to imply anything; I made a conscious effort for it to be as objective as possible. I'm completely fine for my comment to prompt people's own takes, as you gave in your second paragraph, in response to my observation.
- hayst4ck 3y ago
  When you deal with narcissistic people or people without empathy, you learn quickly that things like unconditional apologies are not from a place of being sorry but from a place of manipulating behavior and actions. When you cut a person out, you are removing their power over you. They apologize to get power over your emotional state back. The narcissist doesn't feel empathy for you. The apology is meant as a transaction, not an expression of guilt or an admission of wrong doing. That's why when you test the apology ("you'll stop this behavior that results in me feeling bad") the test fails.
- watwut 3y ago
  It was not conditional appreciation. It was unconditional appreciation of the apology followed by rules for relationship. People are entitled to set and enforce boundaries. Given that dad is abuser, this one is very healthy one, because it allows the daughter to keep her freedom.
hayst4ck 3y ago
I always felt pretty different. I was never really "abused," but I grew up always feeling more connected with people who have divorced parents or with an absent father. Mine was right there, he drove me to soccer, how could I listen to Everclear and Linkin Park and feel emotionally attached to it? I was the model of middle America. As I grew older I always felt closer to "outcasts" and misfits. My general feeling of disconnected-ness and being different followed me wherever I went. I always felt different. I always felt like there was something wrong with me. I never understood why. After reading online about what a great book Running on Empty: Overcoming your childhood emotional neglect was, while also feeling like I was running on empty, I decided to read the book. It felt like a biography. It made so much make sense and helped me understand why I've had the feelings I've had most of my life. Abuse almost always comes with emotional neglect. As time moves forward I imagine most physical wounds heal, but the emotional ones are the wounds that don't heal so easily. Here is the authors website with a relatively short read and I think anyone resonating with this HN article will probably feel "seen" by it: https://drjonicewebb.com/the-painful-secret-many-people-live-with-the-fatal-flaw/ https://drjonicewebb.com/the-painful-secret-many-people-live...
- jdkoeck 3y ago
  Hi, I don’t know you and I may be completely wrong, but consider that, rather than OR on top of being emotionally neglected, your may have a personality with high neuroticism that facilitates “fatal flaw” thinking. Know that neuroticism is, like personality traits in general, partly inherited. It’s up to you to evaluate how much of your problems can be chalked up to nature and/or nurture. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroticism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroticism
  - techwiz137 3y ago
    I just read this, and I fit the bill perfectly. Nothing has explained what I am more than the article you just linked.
    - jdkoeck 3y ago
      I’m happy you found the concept of neuroticism insightful. I’ve had the same lightbulb moment reading about it :)
moremetadata 3y ago
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mettamage 3y ago
Haven’t read the post yet but I think Bessel van der Kolk’s book The Body Keeps The Score is related reading. I just finished it. Amazing book, it has helped me in understanding that I need to go back to my memories and see if I can feel a sense of agency and safety over them
pgayed 3y ago
> After all, I had no right to chastise him for yelling when I was screaming at him myself. Maybe I had the temper problem, not him. I don’t know what I want to call this fallacy. Maybe tit-for-tat fallacy. One person’s bad behavior doesn’t “annihilate” or vacate the other’s. They don't “cancel out”. The tactic is (reflexively) used to derail the interrogator and change subject. “Yes, it is true I am also verbally abusive but right now we're talking about your verbal abuse.” It's not that this line of reasoning works with the abuser but at least it's a reminder to oneself what's being attempted.
moffkalast 3y ago
> At another point, he said that he’d truly changed and hadn’t hit anyone in the past ten years. “That’s literally not true!” I responded. “You hit me in 2020.” > “But I promise you, your mom and I never wanted to hurt you. I thought I was trying my best. I’m truly sorry.” This is when you have to realize that the person is a sociopath who will say anything to get what they want, even pretending to apologize. When they seem earnest they're still pathologically lying because the malice goes beyond intentional but becomes casual, as that's just who they are. And people wonder why we have trust issues. The unfortunate reality is that these sort of people also get very far in life, since nature and society love go getters without morals or conscience.
- knaik94 3y ago
  Sociopath is the wrong word to use, and that is the crux of the entire post. There's nothing so clear cut in this kind of situation. The parent isn't strictly trying to get something from the child with this apology. I think the parent is having their own internal struggle between validating the stuggles the child faced and understanding they were part of the cause. They lose sight of some things because they have an "ends justify the means" mindset. In a sense, they were okay being the "bad guy" so that their child was set up for the best future possible.
  - moffkalast 3y ago
    Yes if you believe what they say, then sure. I don't.
throwaway_73949 3y ago
I'm sorry but I couldn't finish the article. Every incident described in the article is so similar to my childhood, that I was becoming restless, agitated and getting tears of anger and frustration in my eyes frequently. Even as I'm writing this, I'm half crying because I'm revisiting my childhood memories. My step father was almost exactly like the one described in the article. Always yelling at me, hitting me, threatening to kill me, beat me, kick me out of the house, starve me, lock me in a room. He'd even tell me that he wished I'd die. And every time I protested, I'd get my teeth kicked in. And my mother was right there, watching. She didn't raise a finger to protect me. Sometimes she'd blame me for this, telling me that I make him angry and that's why he hits me. She was also abusive towards me. I didn't know what I had to do to keep her from getting angry at me and hitting me. My protests were also met with "You're ungrateful" or something similar as well. My step father would constantly make mistakes and then blame me when consequences hit him. And my mother would actually take his side. I clearly remember several instances where he gave me incorrect information by mistake and then blamed me for not doing what he asked properly. This would then lead to him calling me useless, a burden, leach etc. But, thankfully, I got out. And I am never going back. The only person in my entire family that I trust is my eldest sister. She's the only reason I tolerate the rest (from far away). Otherwise I'd have left the country and cut all ties with them. All I needed to hear was "It's ok to go against the wishes of your parents". My counsellor told me that in the second of our 8 sessions when I voluntarily checked myself in a psychiatric hospital because I'd been depressed and suicidal for the last decade (since I was 14). I've never looked back since. My childhood has left a massive imprint on my personality. I have severe trust issues, generalized anxiety, repressed emotions. But I can say with absolute certainty that my life has exponentially improved since I left my home behind.
- vals_pals_ 3y ago
  Hey, OP here. The abuse you experienced was terrifying. I'm really sorry that you went through it. I am glad you got out. In my case, I feel comfortable trying to make amends with my dad because 1.) I feel pretty certain about my boundaries and 2.) I think he actually wants to improve. But he didn't want to improve until I had shown him firsthand that I could completely cut him off without looking back. I think there are many parents who, even if are backed into a corner and given chances to improve, will not. It sounds like your stepfather is one of them. I wonder what his childhood was like, and what pains that he endured, in order to treat you so terribly. I think what matters most for any individual person is getting ourselves to a state where we feel okay and happy about ourselves. How that process unfolds depends on the person. Take care.
throwawaymay77 3y ago
I am in no way trying to invalidate the anguish that the author or people in this thread have suffered. I simply want to share my experience with having parents that beat me in a culture where it is commonplace. I grew up in a Muslim country where I and everyone else I knew received the same level of physical punishment as part of the general parenting strategy. Some call this normalized child abuse - when I moved to a Western country for work and discussed this type of upbringing with others, they claimed I was abused and oblivious ("repressing"), and they seemed shocked at the fact that it didn't bother me or that it hasn't affected my relationship with my family. If I had been the only person receiving beatings and everyone else at my school was telling me I was being abused, I may have also deemed my father to be a monster, but I assumed the punishments were justified. Someone may take this to imply that whether you see your parent as a monster or not depends on the context (on whether it is culturally acceptable or not) and that there is nothing inherently damaging about receiving beatings. Others may conclude that cultures where beating children is acceptable are barbaric and their children do indeed suffer lifelong trauma but manage to cope (if they do not seem to have been affected). I don't have enough data to draw any conclusions myself. However, and this is my man point, a charitable view of the issue may at least make a distinction between parents who are intentionally hurting their children because of their own issues, and parents who believe physical punishment (or any form of a strict, stern upbringing) is a valid method for raising your children. Is it possible that the father of the OP, being Chinese, thought he was doing the right thing at the time? One interesting thing I noted is that even in Western countries, beatings are more common and accepted in certain groups. Some Black and Hispanic friends of mine have joked about how hard their parents beat them, but I have yet to meet a White person who thinks of beating children as anything more than abuse.
- bigbacaloa 3y ago
  In the US South when I was growing up it was common for white parents to whip their kids with a belt. However, in every culture where this kind of beating is common there are parents who do not engage in it, who recognize that violence is the weakest form of authority.
- atoav 3y ago
  This kind of punishment was very common in most western nations two or three generations ago as well. So if you talk with people from my father's generation it is very common to hear stories of physical punishment by parents and teachers. Fifteen years ago the common opinion there was "well it didn't hurt me because everybody got it". Only, people realized that it actually did hurt them, they just buried it deep down. They realized that the "strong hand" of their elders was actually a sign of weakness. If you cannot guide a kid without beating them, you are an utter failure as an adult.
deleted 3y ago
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unc0n 3y ago
This sort of childhood trauma occurs in many societies, among people with varying backgrounds. But I think it is more prevalent in societies with more sacred cows, where eg fathers, and elders, are told they are in an elevated position by dint of who they are, and thus they must be obeyed, and must seek not to lose face. When you foster these pockets of power, one should not be surprised that power often corrupts. Until Chinese (by here I mean the ethnicity, and not the nationality) society (and other societies with similar power structures) can look at itself critically and understand the full implications of such cultural imperatives, tackling the epidemic of abuse will be an uphill battle.

210 points by exolymph 3y ago

skc 3y ago

One of the cruel ironies of the human experience is that making children is almost as easy as breathing. Not everyone that can procreate, should. Stories of parental abuse enrage me to hyperventilation and I had a good childhood.

dmbche 3y ago

Thanks to the author for taking the time and effort to have a very heartfelt and deep dive into their personal life - especially on subjects this nuanced. Their comments on "hurt" rather than bad, and their feeling that they couldn't fight back unless they became "dirty", or just as bad as them, were especially resonant. Their comments about their dad living through the cultural revolution made me remember the scene in the Three Body Problem where Ye Wenjie confronts the three communist youths that had killed her father many years after the revolution, and they explain that their own suffering and how it brought along her fathers death.

vals_pals_ 3y ago
Hey, author here. Thank you so much for taking the time to write a thoughtful comment. I had no idea what the response to this essay would be, so I'm really grateful that you read it in the first place and that the essay moved you.

labrador 3y ago

I have a similar father and while I never expect to get an apology, I've found peace knowing it's about him and not me. I stopped personalizing it. He's still trapped in the craziness of the world and those who raised him, while I've found a way to manage it so I am not similarly crazy.

throwaway_abuse 3y ago

This hit too close to home that I couldn't finish reading it in a sitting. I had to walk around my apartment a couple of times waiting to relax before coming back to my computer. I have blanks in my memories too, where my dad told me he hit me (he apologized for it, like in OP). And I remember nothing after "the triggering incident", like in OP. I also have very bad trust issues now, to the point where it is hard for me to make friends if they insist on having opinions on my life. Relationships have never worked for me, because it takes me forever to open up. Childhood trauma sucks. Why people take their anger out on innocent kids just trying to understand how the world works in their own ways, is just beyond me. There's SOO many more positive and healthy ways to raise a child. And realizing that now makes me genuinely teary eyed about all the neural pathways in my brain that were formed or not formed as a result of my parents decisions. But I'm kind of glad to see so many of my friends being awesome parents, really caring for and listening to their kids. I'm lowkey excited for the next generation, who will be much more open about their thoughts and feelings, and probably more well adjusted as humans. My pet hypothesis is this will also why the current/next generation is much more open about sexuality / gender / identity, and I expect this to get only more nuanced as science understands more and as people learn to express more. But that's just something I cooked up. Anyone else feel this way?

ternaryoperator 3y ago
I too share your sentiments about the upcoming generation(s). The other thing I notice about them is that they're overall far more accepting about differences in race, sexual orientation, gender, etc.
- code_biologist 3y ago
  I would broadly agree with your characterization, with a specific painful exception. In certain very left leaning American communities there is a guilt about or bias against cishet identities. The eager diagnosis of gender identity issues along with irreversible hormone and surgical treatments (great discussion from a former gender identity counselor in this Triggernometry interview [1]) constitute child abuse and medical malpractice in some instances. I’m a happy cis adult male. I liked painting my nails a lot as a kid. I’m glad my parents just set me up with nail polish and ventilated area instead of bringing sexual identity into it. [1] https://youtu.be/gbuGMbqjsSw https://youtu.be/gbuGMbqjsSw
  - Timon3 3y ago
    > I would broadly agree with your characterization, with a specific painful exception. In certain very left leaning American communities there is a guilt about or bias against cishet identities. No matter what topic, I always hear this, but I never see it. Could you share a few examples? > The eager diagnosis of gender identity issues along with irreversible hormone and surgical treatments (great discussion from a former gender identity counselor in this Triggernometry interview [1]) constitute child abuse and medical malpractice in some instances. But let's not forget the other side: the banning of gender-affirming care with irreversible puberties also constitutes child abuse and medical malpractice in some instances. The question is: which happens more often? And I have yet to see any data suggesting that your description is applicable in more than a handful of cases.
    - LawTalkingGuy 3y ago
      >> bias against cishet identities. > I always hear this, but I never see it. Could you share a few examples? Jobs. There are too many white, asian, and Indian males in my company, we're told. So we have to hire others preferentially now to balance out our numbers. Yet if a white male identifies as a woman there's a space for them. That sounds like an anti-"cishet" and racial bias. "It is no news that women are underrepresented in the tech industry and even more so in open source. That’s why we are proud to announce the news of the first-ever all-women Open Source Program Office (OSPO). The Comcast OSPO is a geographically, culturally, and technically diverse team of members who identify as women, and who are accelerating in open source leadership, community, compliance, and security. This presentation will discuss the challenges women face in open source and the dynamics of an inclusive team." Also like really shitty women's lib. > the banning of gender-affirming care [...] constitutes child abuse and medical malpractice in some instances. This is where the problem is; what's being banned, the stuff we're told never happens? Nobody is trying to stop appropriate surgery for children with developmental sexual disorders. Generally the DSD (Intersex) community knows what's appropriate treatment (or appropriate lack of treatment in many cases) for their specific conditions. The problem is happiness/depression issues being turned into surgical modifications. > irreversible puberties [...]. The question is: which happens more often? Puberty isn't child abuse. Pretending that there's an option to puberty is. Dr Marci Bowers - a leading pediatric gender doctor and surgeon says that - “every single child who was truly blocked at Tanner stage 2 has never experienced orgasm. I mean, it’s really about zero.” > I have yet to see any data suggesting that [the eager diagnosis of gender identity] is applicable in more than a handful of cases. Would you consider it proven if doctors routinely ignored pre-existing mental health issues such as autism, major trauma such as child sexual abuse and loss of a parent, and signs of existing issues such as "cutting", and anorexia. How about if the child's initial gender-identity contact admits to homophobia being their reason to seek transition? Susie Green CEO of Mermaids, "Jack’s favorite outfits were the tutu and the snow-white costume [...] that was fine but not for Dad [...] the conclusion of the sort of years up until she was about two was that I had a very sensitive quite a feminine little boy who was probably gay but Jack’s dad did not approve of our child’s effeminate behavior [...] at six she asked when she could have the operation to make her really a girl". We forget that children often asked to go to gay-conversion therapy, because they'd been brainwashed into thinking they were failed people with a horrible sinful condition that needed fixing. Jack Green was bullied into thinking that he had to make himself a girl if he wanted to choose his own interests. He "freely chose" to have cosmetic genital surgery to be allowed to be himself.

Waterluvian 3y ago

I lost my mom in my late teens. My parents were wonderful. Definitely well above average. I owe them so much. Something that I’ve been discovering is that I have two sections of blanks in my memory: the anguish of her being so sick for years, and the times she lost her cool with me. Both sets of memories have been trickling back decades later. I’m not sure what to share about it in particular, but in general it has been a fascinating and oftentimes horrible sensation. To suddenly have a memory activate for no apparent reason. I’m incredibly thankful that my wife is the person she is. I’ll randomly come into the room holding back tears and she immediately knows what it is and what to do. I think it’s important to speak these things aloud to help further normalize our talking about them.

inconceivable 3y ago

i think several decades ago, a lot of people didn't really want kids but had them anyway due to societal/family pressure. my parents were immigrants so the pressure was probably double. mentally both weak, and strong. a paradox. my dad used to hit me until one day i realized i was heavier than him, and threw him onto the couch and raised my fist to hit him, but didn't. he never tried again. my relationship with them is fine now (i'm middle aged) but i still don't listen to a god damn thing they say about life advice. quite frankly they don't know their ass from their elbow about how america really works and less than zero about growing up here. most immigrant parents don't, even though they pretend to, for some insane reason. as for me i'm not having kids, and i don't really do long-term monogamous relationships either (i date plenty). i'm sure my parents are disappointed but quite frankly i don't give a shit.

deepfriedchokes 3y ago
[flagged]
- P_I_Staker 3y ago
  I'd be a terrible dad, and I aint got no kid
- inconceivable 3y ago
  i'm not so sure about that. when i get super stressed it doesn't manifest in good ways. it's very easy to deal with this as a single person but not otherwise.
RHSman2 3y ago
Having kids forces you to change. And if you don’t you’ll turn into something that is a negative reaction to that stimuli. It’s a massive step to do that change, takes more courage than I have ever had to use anywhere in my life. I would have struggled to do that if I didn’t know what having a loving family meant (they gave me a North Star for love.)

throwaway093821 3y ago

As someone who similarly has Asian parents that have gone through their own trauma in life, this resonates with me. As a younger child, my parents would hit us with clothes hangers, as this was the only method of discipline that they knew at the time. I don't feel like they realize or acknowledge the effects of that. While interactions nowadays are rarely negative, I've resolved to cut of communication at some point in the future, after I've alleviated my own guilt by "repaying" them monetarily for all they've done in raising me. I get yelled at most days still, though. Most of the electronic devices I've owned over the years have been broken by my dad smashing it after getting frustrated over some aspect of schoolwork related to my usage of such devices. Curiously, this seems to happen after he's had a few drinks.

isoprophlex 3y ago
> While interactions nowadays are rarely negative, ... > I get yelled at most days still, though I get the feeling that most outside observers would still classify these interactions as abusive...
lostapathy 3y ago
> after I've alleviated my own guilt by "repaying" them monetarily for all they've done in raising me. You don’t owe them that. “They put a roof over my head and fed and clothed me” isn’t a parent doing good for their kids, it’s the minimum allowed by law. You make a choice when you have a child, and these costs are part of that choice.

snapetom 3y ago

"Of course this is Asian parents," I thought as I saw the Chinese characters. Every time I read something like this, it's a wave of sadness and empathy, then it's a wave of anger. I'm a generation older than the author, and went through a similar experience with my mother. I witnessed my cousin be thrown against the drywall so hard, he broke it. I'm convinced he has permanent brain damage today due to the abuse he suffered. I learned from my uncle recently that my aunt and my mother were the product of horrendous and similar abuse from my grandmother. My grandmother, who my mother made out to be a saint. Every fucking generation, this filial piety bullshit repeats itself.

JKCalhoun 3y ago
It's not just Asians though, but you probably know that.
- snapetom 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - JKCalhoun 3y ago
    > Is it common in western cultures for abusers, who have been abused, to praise and speak highly of their abusers? Was that the criteria? I assumed we were talking about being beaten by your parents — of which I, non-Asian, know something about. (And parent was beaten by their parent....) (I've never given a shit about internet points.)
    - snapetom 3y ago
      Again I said the symptoms of abuse might be the same but the root causes are different. You blatantly ignore that.
      - seattle_spring 3y ago
        Who was making any arguments against different “root causes”? As far as I can tell, no one was until you chimed in. Are you trying to say that non-Asians suffering emotional and physical abuse is somehow lesser because there are different “root causes”?

deleted 3y ago

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ketanmaheshwari 3y ago

My mom hit me badly for not being able to write 2 properly. It has been 40 years and I have not yet forgotten.

throwaway92333 3y ago

My parents aren't Asian (I'm not even from the US), but, still, this resonates with me. My conundrum is that I simply don't feel like I'd be able to cut off my parents, especially my mom. I simply can't imagine a world without her. I would feel lost without her. Even though she may have sexually abused me. Because in the end, who else do I have?

nyanpasu64 3y ago
In my case I'm too traumatized to survive and afford a roof over my head without relying on my earlier-abuser parents, even though I want to escape and live with a family of choice. Most things I try to do to change my circumstances results in overwhelming stress or even breaking down in tears, and none of them have been able to materially improve my living conditions or build towards a financially stable future.
agumonkey 3y ago
This is a deep question. Our parents represent too much and too deep stuff in our brains. All our childhood, birth, absolute love.. i struggle to understand how some people can easily cut their parents away. It feels like grief. Very hard problem to solve. Some therapists talk about adding distance as a compromise..

crazygringo 3y ago

If this post resonates with you, there are two books I highly recommend, both by the renowned psychologist Alice Miller [1]. The first is For Your Own Good (1981), in which she describes the "poisonous pedagogy" of emotional and physical abuse passed down from generation to generation, and how we minimize and turn a blind eye to it because we want to follow the 4th commandment "Honor thy father and thy mother" (or in this case, a Confucian equivalent) -- at tremendous cost to ourselves, our own children, and society at large. It is one of the most eye-opening books I have ever read. The second is her more recent The Body Never Lies: The Lingering Effects of Cruel Parenting (2005), which is more therapeutic and focused on how people's physical pain and sickness can dissipate when they are able to finally stand up for themselves and their own emotional needs, rather than continue to pretend their abusive parents were actually good. Alice Miller's first book, The Drama of the Gifted Child (1979) is her best-known, but in my opinion, the above two books show her understanding evolving to become even more sophisticated. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Miller_(psychologist) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Miller_(psychologist)

browningstreet 3y ago
Also: Gabor Mate. He’s got videos, interviews, books. He focuses on addictions and childhood trauma, but his latest book extends his research to society in a broader level. His work is essential.
thenerdhead 3y ago
> I keep hoping for a future where my dad and I call every few days, and I can tell him about the decisions I’m navigating or the opinions I actually hold, without him yelling at me when I deviate from his expectations. I find myself dreaming that one day, my dad will call me and tell me that he connected with his own memories of his parents, and now fully understands the magnitude of the pain I endured. We’ve undergone similar pains, he’ll tell me. He got hit for wanting meat, and I got hit for not washing my hands. I’m sorry for recycling that pain. The sad reality that Miller outlines in her most popular title is that you'll probably never receive this want even if you communicate it constantly. That book really hurt to read. But it is the truth.
AdamCraven 3y ago

turtleyacht 3y ago

To the folks here, do you remember your childhoods at all? Of the memories you have gathered up, do the vivid ones center around loud, violent interactions (like yelling)? I ask because I don't remember a lot of my childhood, except some vivid memories around things being my fault. Being blamed for things. I love my parents. They did everything for me. But my memories of happiness are in photos and more recent events. Decades ago are just, well, empty. Take lots of pictures, y'all--and recordings! Thank-you.

sva_ 3y ago
I remember quite a lot about my childhood. You ask about yelling, I vividly remember how when my father shouted at me/my brothers, the glasses in the kitchen would vibrate against each other and make a clanking noise whenever he finished a sentence, and we'd just sit in silence. Sometimes even the doorbell would start making noise from his voice. But I also have a lot of good memories, and I can luckily say that my father has turned around when I got a bit older. I think my parents lacked the maturity to have children at their age.
- turtleyacht 3y ago
  The maturity bit hits hard. I know some of my weaknesses, and as always I turn to books. But when they are childrens books and they have good advice--and I wanted them to be better at it than me--it's like, I didn't acquire these tools myself, either. When the books are teaching (or admonishing, in my case) both of us, it's better than nothing I guess.
swader999 3y ago
I don't have much memory before ten years old, in my fifties now.
- turtleyacht 3y ago
  I have a picture of me standing in the snow, thick coat and the squares of a wood-and-paper door behind me. But I don't remember the floor inside, or the ceiling, or anything else. My own room, the environs around. Nothing else. I must have been just a couple years old, even.

leashless 3y ago

Trauma and Recovery by Judith Lewis Herman is the standard academic psychology reference text for understanding CPTSD. It is worth 5000 self help books.

Aleksdev 3y ago
Thanks! They have it on Audible for anyone else who is interested.

deleted 3y ago

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monero-xmr 3y ago

My father was quite abusive to myself and siblings, and now we all cut off contact, but he refuses to accept any responsibility for his actions. Everything is someone else’s fault, he’s the victim, everyone is teaming up against him, etc. If you take the checklist for narcissistic personality disorder he hits all of them spot-on. Really nothing you can do but become estranged and raise your own children better.

tomcam 3y ago
> we all cut off contact I had to do that too. Stay strong.
fugalfervor 3y ago
My mother has NPD. That disorder is very hard on the children. I am grateful to my wife, and for my son. We are doing things better for sure.
- monero-xmr 3y ago
  Out of all the traits, I think an inability empathize - simply to put yourself in someone else’s shoes - is the defining characteristic. Whether you are dealing with a child, a spouse, a service worker, a friend - the afflicted cannot understand how someone else feels. The “me” focus is overarching and permeates all thoughts and actions. One memory sticks out that perfectly encompasses his malady, is when my wife cooked a big meal for a gathering which included in-laws, friends, and neighbors. When she announced dinner was going to be served, he filled a plate with food and ate by himself at the table, before anyone else had sat down or been served. When asked later why he did that, he came up with a few reasons which essentially were “I was hungry”. I’m leaving out all manner of physical, emotional, manipulative, financial abuse he inflicted but the above anecdote is such a pure distillation of the lack of social grace combined with intense self-indulgence.
- squokko 3y ago
  I looked up NPD... what would you say is different between "having NPD" and "being a colossal asshole"?

mise_en_place 3y ago

The scariest thing about having abusive parents is that you end up becoming like them. It took me many years to understand why my relationships would all fail. In hindsight, I was emotionally abusive to a lot of my partners. I will not offer an apology for it, as that just feels hollow and empty. All I can say is that I am trying to be better.

deleted 3y ago
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ted_bunny 3y ago
Can you say more about how you leanred about that one? Feeling at square one.
- faangguyindia 3y ago
  At some point you become self aware, for me it came after a girlfriend of 6 years just left one day. I went through lot of anxiety after that. But i realized where it was alll coming from, it's as if I always knew how to act better in hindsight but when I was facing the situation I almost always couldn't do anything good. Not that she wouldn't have left if I was good, people leave all time for whatever reasons. But I could still have been nicer to her I feel, she was also similar to me so it's not like she was always nice to me but I could have shown her better.
knaik94 3y ago
For some people, hearing an apology means something even if you feel like your words are hollow and empty. I had a difficult upbringing too, but I have never repeated the mistakes of my parents in my own relationships. I wonder if that difference is related to how early someone realizes that their parents shouldn't be treating them this way. It's harder to recognize certain behaviors when you don't know what to look for.
aaplok 3y ago
Could it be that you won't apologise because a part of you fears that the apology might be used against you? The recovery process will necessarily pass by trusting people again, and making yourself vulnerable to them. That is the only way you can experience that they behave like normal human beings who won't exploit your weaknesses.

jancsika 3y ago

tldr; Author should find a therapist if they haven't already. I can perfectly imagine that friend saying "you're making excuses for him," and the frustration both the friend and author have at not seeing the situation from the same vantage point. I can feel the friend's frustration at the gravity of the situation somehow not getting through fully to the author. (As well as the author's frustration for the friend not grokking the complexity of the relationship!) The thing is, there may well be feelings and contradictions that the author must-- when they are ready and willing-- sit with and somehow start to confront and understand, regardless of what those feelings are. As someone who hasn't dealt with physical abuse, not only would be it difficult to know how to help a close friend through those feelings, but there's a good chance I'd actively guide them away from confronting them. "You're nothing like him," or, "but you were just defending your sister," etc. I don't want a friend to feel those things! And even if I knew they need to go there, how in the world would I know when it's time or how to safely encourage them to confront them? There are things that feel wrong that are part of the right process, and plenty of things that feel right which don't help you heal. A therapist who specializes in child abuse can help the author by guiding them through this, with practical experience and without judgment.

throwawaylifez 3y ago

My dad would make me pick, the belt or the wooden spoon. I'd pick the belt because a) fuck him and b) it would be over faster. I used to think this was normal, that every kid got this. He'd punch me in the arm, in the chest, smack the back of my head to 'toughen me up'. One night I had a car accident, I called him from hospital (I was fine) he asked how the car was, how bad was the car? Who did I hit? It dawned on me that he'd never asked if I was ok. I hadn't said anything but "Dad I crashed the car". Years of abuse that I would hide and no one would know about, except my mother who put up with it and never stopped him. Now he has very serious dementia, in a care facility on his own, still healthy but completely not himself. He cries and my heart breaks. He asks me to help him die because he forgets who I am, but I remember everything.

moneywoes 3y ago
This this takes me back, having to lie in school and the library all the time about the cause for all bruises and cuts Didn't say a word, always felt the alternative of foster care was much worse Now, I'm paying for my mother's husband's rent Doesn't help that saying the word abuse has men ostracized in my community sigh
hypertele-Xii 3y ago
I got to choose the belt my dad would use to beat me with until I stopped crying and didn't make a sound. A wider belt had more mass to slap, but a thinner one stinged like a whip. Part of sadistic narcissists is building these mind games where you only get options for how to lose, never any to win, so you feel helpless and trapped. The only winning move is not to play.
- inconceivable 3y ago
  my dad didn't use tools but if given the choice i'd probably have flipped a coin as a fuck you.

thenerdhead 3y ago

They fuck you up, your mum and dad. They may not mean to, but they do. They fill you with the faults they had And add some extra, just for you. -Philip Larkin, This Be The Verse

throwawaylifez 3y ago
They tuck you up, your Mum and Dad. They read you Peter Rabbit, too. They give you all the treats they had And add some extra, just for you. They were tucked up when they were small, (Pink perfume, blue tobacco-smoke), By those whose kiss healed any fall, Whose laughter doubled any joke. Man hands on happiness to man. It deepens like a coastal shelf. So love your parents all you can And have some cheerful kids yourself. - Adrian Mitchell
revolvingocelot 3y ago
Given the sibling comment, I feel the parent needs some explanation, and the full poem! Larkin's poem came first, then the one in the sibling comment. *** They fuck you up, your mum and dad. They may not mean to, but they do. They fill you with the faults they had And add some extra, just for you. But they were fucked up in their turn By fools in old-style hats and coats, Who half the time were soppy-stern And half at one another’s throats. Man hands on misery to man. It deepens like a coastal shelf. Get out as early as you can, And don’t have any kids yourself. [0] [0] https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/48419/this-be-the-verse https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/48419/this-be-the-ver...
- pengaru 3y ago
  I first heard this poem back in the late 90s in the form of an Anne Clark MP3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asVf8Zpw1tA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asVf8Zpw1tA
- ilkke 3y ago
  Thanks for sharing. It took me way too long to 'get out' but I instinctively figured out I'm never having kids years before understanding why.

yarg 3y ago

My parents didn't like me as a person, I don't remember why. My mother once said to me "When you were a child I thought you'd grow up to be the next Adolph Hitler.". My father's version was "You couldn't have had a brother because we couldn't have another one of you.". Both punished me for not being the person they wanted me to be, not only was there very little overlap between my personality and what they wanted, there was bugger all overlap between what the two of them wanted individually. I ended up with a compromised façade of a personality that I'm still trying to peel away.

ITB 3y ago
Were you a troublemaker ?
- kevviiinn 3y ago
  Are you victim blaming ?
- isoprophlex 3y ago
  I vouched for this, also considering yargs comments... but this comment is on pretty thin ice. If you want to avoid that in the future, maybe it helps to make your comment more substantial instead of a single sentence which can easily be interpreted as malicious.
- watwut 3y ago
  Unwanted kids often end up ones. They act out to get attention and because they needs are not met.
yarg 3y ago
Yo, dang: ITB got flagged and killed for a fair enough question, anyway I can vouch for his comment? ITB > Were you a troublemaker ? I might've been a bit of a disagreeable cunt, but I was never fucking Hitler.
- yarg 3y ago
  Regarding the question of victim blaming (a comment also brutally murdered), sometimes it's a sane question to ask: if you never look into the contributing factors of a situation you can never stop it from happening again. Put your pretensions about the sacred nature of life aside and understand that children are a pain in the arse to have, and the disagreeable son of disagreeable parents even more so. But I maintain to this day that I was never really an arsehole. Also, if people stop having kids we're going just as extinct as if we have too many. Learn a bit of moderation. Considering that, we need to make having kids a more viable option than it is (and for a lot of the most useful people in society).

carabiner 3y ago

The apology she gets from her dad is extraordinary. I'm quite sure my parents will not apologize even on their deathbeds.

toomanyrichies 3y ago
33 years later and I'm still waiting for my dad to apologize for trying to convince 9-year-old me that he was justified in hitting my mom. Hearing the author's dad apologize to her made me happy (and, if I'm honest, a tad jealous). I hope the apology is genuine and, on top of that, he takes action to make amends.
tomcam 3y ago
I was abused by multiple family members. Zero acknowledgment, complete denial on their part. Made me doubt reality.

AnimalMuppet 3y ago

To the one who said he was sinking, in a post that was deleted[1]: First thing: Your condition is not your fault. I'm going to say that again, because you may need to hear it more than once: Your condition is not your fault. You don't need to feel shame for what it not your fault. It's misplaced. Please, overcome your reluctance to see a therapist. You deserve more than slowly sinking until you drown. You deserve to heal, to live a life that is actually living. Is there anyone at all, from work or a bar or a church or a neighbor or anyone you can turn to, and say, "Please help me find the strength to go to a therapist. Please go with me to the office the first time so I don't back out. Please help me remember that this is not my fault, and that I don't need to feel shame in seeking help." If there's nobody else, tell us your location. Someone here will probably be around, and willing to go with you, if you're willing to accept help in that way. Please, please, please. Find a way to get help. You're worth more than this. [1] Yes, I remember the author's username. I'm withholding it out of respect for their privacy.

knaik94 3y ago

One of the hardest truths I've had to accept is that pointing things out to them doesn't help. I have spend a lot of time and energy trying to rationalize their thinking in some way, but I think it's a fool's errand. I would similarly struggle to remember specific events, and at one point I even started voice recording them yelling. But showing them later only lead to more attempts at gaslighting and victim blaming. However, it was eye opening to see 3+ hour long runtimes on the voice memos that I couldn't remember anything about. Emotional abuse is every bit as harmful and affects your brain in the same way as other kinds of abuse. I hate people that try to apologize or convince you that they deserve forgiveness because they meant well or "they're your parents/family". It gets hard to push back without being disrespectful. And regardless of how old you get, the power dynamic of parent and child follows you. After a while you stop sharing completely. Separating their behavior from who they are as a person is the hardest thing I've had to do. But it's the first milestone in rebuilding a relationship and helped me seperate myself from their behavior. Being aware that their behavior is a consequence of their upbringing earned empathy from me, but I think forgiveness requires empathy in both directions. I think it's equally hard to accept that you hurt someone you love. Cultural norms can cause a lot of people to stay quiet, even if they decided to cut all contact, because talking poorly about your parents is seen as one of the worst things you can do. Regardless of what that thing was. I couldn't finish reading it in one sitting and I still had to skim parts of it. But I appreciate this being writted and shared publicly.

Aleksdev 3y ago

The crazy thing about this, is growing up and realizing that not everybody was raised like this. I sometimes see kids screaming back at there parents. If I had ever done something like that there would be a funeral.

creakingstairs 3y ago
> The crazy thing about this, is growing up and realizing that not everybody was raised like this. I just remember going to a friends place and being bewildered at overflowing trust and joy in their normal interactions. At first, I thought it was because I was there as a guest. But turns out they actually enjoyed being with each other. Really opened my eyes up to what a family could be.

streakfix 3y ago

Kids are like puppies, in that they will start following any pair of feet they see, since they don't have a frame of reference. You could argue that giving them a good frame of reference is the most important job of a parent.

obs_throwaway 3y ago

This was very hard to read through, and it brought up so many difficult memories from not just childhood but well into adulthood. My father would alternate between verbal abuse, physical abuse and the worst, emotional abuse. This started when I was very young, in primary school. Coming from an Asian family, we were all expected to be our best and to do our best in school, and getting anything less than the best grades was considered unacceptable. The consequences would often be harsh verbal beatdowns, curfews and extra classes. Physical punishments were common, and they would usually involve a cane, stick, or belt. I was convinced I was getting away easy because the 'crime' I had committed was always super-serious, a grave and punishable offence, something like telling a lie or not doing my chores, so yeah it would be the death penalty were it not for the large-hearted compassion of the man administering the punishment. It later turned more to emotional abuse as I had learned to start tuning out the pain and feelings and switch to a sort of zombie-mode when it came to the punishments. The emotional abuse would pain a lot longer and eventually started triggering mild to severe depressive episodes. As a male child we were told to tough it out and be a man. As an example, the expectation on me was that I would study in a particular medical program after school. I was not remotely interested in medicine, I didn't do well, and did not get through. I chose another discipline that I liked. I am in my fifties now, but I still remember this incident very well. The summary of the comments was "I am ashamed of you, you are a failure, you have made me lose face." That stung harder than I would have expected, and it still takes a bit of effort to let go. He had this way of changing his personality depending on the audience. To our close relatives, he would appear as the model father doing everything in his capacity (and beyond) to do good for his family, and that narrative was unquestioned and accepted by all. This was not completely without a basis, since he had supported his four siblings through a difficult childhood. The mask would drop when there were no outsiders around. Even after he died, everyone who came to pay their respects had good words to say. As I graduated, I decided to quickly move out of home and leave the country, so I took the first chance I got and left. The abuse turned mostly emotional after that, and there's a lot I am leaving out here. I still had to keep in touch with family due to other reasons but by then I had evolved my way of coping. The man is now dead and gone, I have not a single photo of him, nor any of the letters he had written to me. Later when I hit my late forties and would have a few deep conversations with mom, she would slowly tell me how hard it was to have lived with him for nearly six decades. She had many career opportunities that she was made to give up in order to "be the mother that a family needs", it was for the sake of external appearances. There was no physical abuse towards mom, but there was so much emotional abuse I couldn't deal with. Perhaps I took the cowards' way out and left the country, but in my early twenties I didn't know what to do. I still have dreams (nightmares?) where he and I are face to face, arguing vigorously, stirring up all the wrong emotions, but there's not much I can do about that except to remind myself that it's just a dream, and to let it go. So yeah, this type of abuse can really mess a person up. I'm coping now with proper guidance, letting go, meditating, and staying aware of unwholesome thoughts as they come up. It is a hard journey but I (we) need to make that decision and take charge of our feelings and actions.

steve76 3y ago

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agumonkey 3y ago

Anybody know about the innards of traumatic memory and flashes?

infpeace 3y ago
A simple summary is that the traumatic memories don’t get fully processed, which means the recalling of them is different to other memories. It’s possible to help these memories fully process, which changes the recall into something less vivid and overwhelming. For example with EMDR or somatic experiencing. Trauma and Memory by Peter Levine explores this, as well as The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk.
- agumonkey 3y ago
  Thanks, gonna grab these books

oska 3y ago

Just an observation : The apology text from the father was unconditional. The reply from the daughter was conditional appreciation.

tinycombinator 3y ago
I think your observation is phrased in a way that implies the father has done something entirely selfless and the daughter has done something relatively selfish. The reply from the daughter was an attempt to set a clear boundary while also showing appreciation and support for his change. I think setting boundaries like this is a perfectly healthy thing to do, including/especially towards family members.
- oska 3y ago
  I disagree that my comment was phrased to imply anything; I made a conscious effort for it to be as objective as possible. I'm completely fine for my comment to prompt people's own takes, as you gave in your second paragraph, in response to my observation.
hayst4ck 3y ago
When you deal with narcissistic people or people without empathy, you learn quickly that things like unconditional apologies are not from a place of being sorry but from a place of manipulating behavior and actions. When you cut a person out, you are removing their power over you. They apologize to get power over your emotional state back. The narcissist doesn't feel empathy for you. The apology is meant as a transaction, not an expression of guilt or an admission of wrong doing. That's why when you test the apology ("you'll stop this behavior that results in me feeling bad") the test fails.
watwut 3y ago
It was not conditional appreciation. It was unconditional appreciation of the apology followed by rules for relationship. People are entitled to set and enforce boundaries. Given that dad is abuser, this one is very healthy one, because it allows the daughter to keep her freedom.

hayst4ck 3y ago

I always felt pretty different. I was never really "abused," but I grew up always feeling more connected with people who have divorced parents or with an absent father. Mine was right there, he drove me to soccer, how could I listen to Everclear and Linkin Park and feel emotionally attached to it? I was the model of middle America. As I grew older I always felt closer to "outcasts" and misfits. My general feeling of disconnected-ness and being different followed me wherever I went. I always felt different. I always felt like there was something wrong with me. I never understood why. After reading online about what a great book Running on Empty: Overcoming your childhood emotional neglect was, while also feeling like I was running on empty, I decided to read the book. It felt like a biography. It made so much make sense and helped me understand why I've had the feelings I've had most of my life. Abuse almost always comes with emotional neglect. As time moves forward I imagine most physical wounds heal, but the emotional ones are the wounds that don't heal so easily. Here is the authors website with a relatively short read and I think anyone resonating with this HN article will probably feel "seen" by it: https://drjonicewebb.com/the-painful-secret-many-people-live-with-the-fatal-flaw/ https://drjonicewebb.com/the-painful-secret-many-people-live...

jdkoeck 3y ago
Hi, I don’t know you and I may be completely wrong, but consider that, rather than OR on top of being emotionally neglected, your may have a personality with high neuroticism that facilitates “fatal flaw” thinking. Know that neuroticism is, like personality traits in general, partly inherited. It’s up to you to evaluate how much of your problems can be chalked up to nature and/or nurture. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroticism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroticism
- techwiz137 3y ago
  I just read this, and I fit the bill perfectly. Nothing has explained what I am more than the article you just linked.
  - jdkoeck 3y ago
    I’m happy you found the concept of neuroticism insightful. I’ve had the same lightbulb moment reading about it :)

moremetadata 3y ago

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mettamage 3y ago

Haven’t read the post yet but I think Bessel van der Kolk’s book The Body Keeps The Score is related reading. I just finished it. Amazing book, it has helped me in understanding that I need to go back to my memories and see if I can feel a sense of agency and safety over them

pgayed 3y ago

> After all, I had no right to chastise him for yelling when I was screaming at him myself. Maybe I had the temper problem, not him. I don’t know what I want to call this fallacy. Maybe tit-for-tat fallacy. One person’s bad behavior doesn’t “annihilate” or vacate the other’s. They don't “cancel out”. The tactic is (reflexively) used to derail the interrogator and change subject. “Yes, it is true I am also verbally abusive but right now we're talking about your verbal abuse.” It's not that this line of reasoning works with the abuser but at least it's a reminder to oneself what's being attempted.

moffkalast 3y ago

> At another point, he said that he’d truly changed and hadn’t hit anyone in the past ten years. “That’s literally not true!” I responded. “You hit me in 2020.” > “But I promise you, your mom and I never wanted to hurt you. I thought I was trying my best. I’m truly sorry.” This is when you have to realize that the person is a sociopath who will say anything to get what they want, even pretending to apologize. When they seem earnest they're still pathologically lying because the malice goes beyond intentional but becomes casual, as that's just who they are. And people wonder why we have trust issues. The unfortunate reality is that these sort of people also get very far in life, since nature and society love go getters without morals or conscience.

knaik94 3y ago
Sociopath is the wrong word to use, and that is the crux of the entire post. There's nothing so clear cut in this kind of situation. The parent isn't strictly trying to get something from the child with this apology. I think the parent is having their own internal struggle between validating the stuggles the child faced and understanding they were part of the cause. They lose sight of some things because they have an "ends justify the means" mindset. In a sense, they were okay being the "bad guy" so that their child was set up for the best future possible.
- moffkalast 3y ago
  Yes if you believe what they say, then sure. I don't.

throwaway_73949 3y ago

I'm sorry but I couldn't finish the article. Every incident described in the article is so similar to my childhood, that I was becoming restless, agitated and getting tears of anger and frustration in my eyes frequently. Even as I'm writing this, I'm half crying because I'm revisiting my childhood memories. My step father was almost exactly like the one described in the article. Always yelling at me, hitting me, threatening to kill me, beat me, kick me out of the house, starve me, lock me in a room. He'd even tell me that he wished I'd die. And every time I protested, I'd get my teeth kicked in. And my mother was right there, watching. She didn't raise a finger to protect me. Sometimes she'd blame me for this, telling me that I make him angry and that's why he hits me. She was also abusive towards me. I didn't know what I had to do to keep her from getting angry at me and hitting me. My protests were also met with "You're ungrateful" or something similar as well. My step father would constantly make mistakes and then blame me when consequences hit him. And my mother would actually take his side. I clearly remember several instances where he gave me incorrect information by mistake and then blamed me for not doing what he asked properly. This would then lead to him calling me useless, a burden, leach etc. But, thankfully, I got out. And I am never going back. The only person in my entire family that I trust is my eldest sister. She's the only reason I tolerate the rest (from far away). Otherwise I'd have left the country and cut all ties with them. All I needed to hear was "It's ok to go against the wishes of your parents". My counsellor told me that in the second of our 8 sessions when I voluntarily checked myself in a psychiatric hospital because I'd been depressed and suicidal for the last decade (since I was 14). I've never looked back since. My childhood has left a massive imprint on my personality. I have severe trust issues, generalized anxiety, repressed emotions. But I can say with absolute certainty that my life has exponentially improved since I left my home behind.

vals_pals_ 3y ago
Hey, OP here. The abuse you experienced was terrifying. I'm really sorry that you went through it. I am glad you got out. In my case, I feel comfortable trying to make amends with my dad because 1.) I feel pretty certain about my boundaries and 2.) I think he actually wants to improve. But he didn't want to improve until I had shown him firsthand that I could completely cut him off without looking back. I think there are many parents who, even if are backed into a corner and given chances to improve, will not. It sounds like your stepfather is one of them. I wonder what his childhood was like, and what pains that he endured, in order to treat you so terribly. I think what matters most for any individual person is getting ourselves to a state where we feel okay and happy about ourselves. How that process unfolds depends on the person. Take care.

throwawaymay77 3y ago

I am in no way trying to invalidate the anguish that the author or people in this thread have suffered. I simply want to share my experience with having parents that beat me in a culture where it is commonplace. I grew up in a Muslim country where I and everyone else I knew received the same level of physical punishment as part of the general parenting strategy. Some call this normalized child abuse - when I moved to a Western country for work and discussed this type of upbringing with others, they claimed I was abused and oblivious ("repressing"), and they seemed shocked at the fact that it didn't bother me or that it hasn't affected my relationship with my family. If I had been the only person receiving beatings and everyone else at my school was telling me I was being abused, I may have also deemed my father to be a monster, but I assumed the punishments were justified. Someone may take this to imply that whether you see your parent as a monster or not depends on the context (on whether it is culturally acceptable or not) and that there is nothing inherently damaging about receiving beatings. Others may conclude that cultures where beating children is acceptable are barbaric and their children do indeed suffer lifelong trauma but manage to cope (if they do not seem to have been affected). I don't have enough data to draw any conclusions myself. However, and this is my man point, a charitable view of the issue may at least make a distinction between parents who are intentionally hurting their children because of their own issues, and parents who believe physical punishment (or any form of a strict, stern upbringing) is a valid method for raising your children. Is it possible that the father of the OP, being Chinese, thought he was doing the right thing at the time? One interesting thing I noted is that even in Western countries, beatings are more common and accepted in certain groups. Some Black and Hispanic friends of mine have joked about how hard their parents beat them, but I have yet to meet a White person who thinks of beating children as anything more than abuse.

bigbacaloa 3y ago
In the US South when I was growing up it was common for white parents to whip their kids with a belt. However, in every culture where this kind of beating is common there are parents who do not engage in it, who recognize that violence is the weakest form of authority.
atoav 3y ago
This kind of punishment was very common in most western nations two or three generations ago as well. So if you talk with people from my father's generation it is very common to hear stories of physical punishment by parents and teachers. Fifteen years ago the common opinion there was "well it didn't hurt me because everybody got it". Only, people realized that it actually did hurt them, they just buried it deep down. They realized that the "strong hand" of their elders was actually a sign of weakness. If you cannot guide a kid without beating them, you are an utter failure as an adult.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

unc0n 3y ago

This sort of childhood trauma occurs in many societies, among people with varying backgrounds. But I think it is more prevalent in societies with more sacred cows, where eg fathers, and elders, are told they are in an elevated position by dint of who they are, and thus they must be obeyed, and must seek not to lose face. When you foster these pockets of power, one should not be surprised that power often corrupts. Until Chinese (by here I mean the ethnicity, and not the nationality) society (and other societies with similar power structures) can look at itself critically and understand the full implications of such cultural imperatives, tackling the epidemic of abuse will be an uphill battle.