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The went to university for a music degree and they can’t already play scales?
by idontwantthis 3y ago
The went to university for a music degree and they can’t already play scales?
- yellowapple 3y agoI'm just as confused by that. Most people I know who had some goal to earn a degree in music were already able to play any scale on a substantial number of instruments by the time they graduated from high school. Hell, I was in that camp and I didn't even plan on going to college. Granted, not everyone goes into a music program knowing every instrument, but scales and arpeggios ain't terribly hard to practice, be it on a keyboard or a woodwind or a brass or whatever.
- idontwantthis 3y agoSeems like you always encounter students willing to work harder to cheat than to learn. My freshman year some students got expelled for keylogging TA passwords and using them to mark assignments passed. The assignments weren’t that hard…
- robga 3y agoA lot of cheating is about time not difficulty. Rather than spend several evenings practising they partied instead, perhaps justifying cheating by deeming the exam topic an irrelevance. One of the takeaways here should be for the exam setters. If cheating was widespread (it sounds like a one off here) then they should consider whether the exam itself was an appropriate task, or whether there was an alternative task that may have been more engaging and ultimately a better test for all.
- aksss 3y ago> weren’t that hard Maybe that’s part of the problem. One of those things is way more intriguing than the other, speaking as someone who wrote fake login screens for my high school’s PS/2 lab. Had like thirty passwords in a couple hours, including one teacher, by running it on the workstation closest to the door.
- robga 3y agoThe degree they were studying for led to a job where for many of them the ability to play arpeggios in 24 keys may have been irrelevant. For example, teaching the history of music, or perhaps musical therapy. When I studied music part of my grade was based on a singing exam. I couldn’t sing, didn’t want to sing, would never need to professionally sing, and have never sung since. Make no mistake- it was scored on the quality of singing. But I couldn’t avoid it being part of the exam system. Imagine someone studying for a computer science degree majoring in chip design. They cheat in Programming 101 by studying only one Sorting Algorithm, not 24 of them, since they can influence which algorithm they are assigned at exam time. Perhaps there is a better example but you get the drift.
- naniwaduni 3y agoThis seems more along the lines of studying only one basis in which to implement fizzbuzz. You're not really supposed to need to prepare your scales and arpeggios.
- amelius 3y agoSo we would get chips that perform well on just that one sorting algorithm?
- lordnacho 3y agoI get that people don't want to waste time, but you lose a lot from taking this attitude. When I went to school we had a lot of kids who were only temporarily in the country. Their parents were diplomats or corporate expats. The government still made the kids learn the local language, with the predictable outcome that these kids had no motivation whatsoever to learn the language. Now with the debate in America being the way it is, a lot of these kids would actually have had a place to go back to, if they only spoke the language. Similarly with a lot of things you learn in education, most of them seem to be of no use, but it's only because you don't learn them properly they are of no use.
- data_maan 3y agoI get this drift! And I think a bit of cheating is healthy. The late Mihai Patrascu (brilliant CS researcher for those who don't know), outspoken as he was, said data faking skills were essential to keeping his sanity in some courses. [1] Cheating just means you're not satisfying some random persons bureaucratic needs of assigning a number to your performance. But such a one-dimensional measure cannot really capture anyone's potential. For some reason few people ponder why people cheat and if the reasons perhaps are valid. Go to that party, if it helps you develop yourself! [1] https://people.csail.mit.edu/mip/acad.html https://people.csail.mit.edu/mip/acad.html
- jimmytidey 3y agoI don't know, but I'm guessing there's a big difference between knowing how to play your scales and playing perfectly evenly and fluidly.
- j7ake 3y agoCorrect. The conservatory music exams require scales to be played from first level to last level. However each level demands faster tempo, evenness in volume, and a smooth “pulse” (like BB gun pellets hitting a wall)
- nlnn 3y agoI don't know about these exact exams, but often there are a lot of variations to play. E.g. multiple octaves, arpeggio inversions, scales in 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths, etc. Plus there's often a requirement to play at a certain tempo, legato/staccato, with correct intonation (for certain instruments), and also to use the correct fingerings as taught in other cases. So can be a lot more involved than playing a simple scale.
- djtango 3y agoI'll admit that I kind of enjoyed scales on the piano because I could mindlessly practise them when I was forced to practise, but I feel like there's a point where if you don't know them, you're limiting yourself in all kinds of ways. Improv and harmonisation benefit from you knowing all the keys on the keyboard inside out. Likewise, if you start going for volume of music you can play, at some point not having those foundations start to limit you. Anyone can memorise 3 pieces perfectly and over-practice them then ace a test. But what if the spirit of a grade and level represented more than that? My final teacher (who I met long after finishing exams) was very traditional and had a policy that was vaguely "you shouldn't take more than 3-6 months" to prepare for your grade exam. If you can't reach distinction level within that time, you're not ready so you should work more on your actual playing ability and musicianship. If you're learning like that, scales will be the least of your worries as we worked on so much repertoire that the need for it was self-evident (and well baked into a good routine). I guess it's a bit like driving - if you memorize a few routes you can probably perform like a real driver, but that's not really the same as being a real driver.
- nlnn 3y agoSame for me, I really enjoy playing scales and the like as studying jazz has made the application and benefit of practice a lot more clear. I did some classical study and grades years ago and remember there being a big disconnect - my teacher just gave me scales and pieces as totally separate entities, and just taught them as things necessary to pass the exam, with no real application or purpose explained to me.
- seanhunter 3y ago
- seanhunter 3y agoYou’d be amazed. I remember an undergrad guitarist complaining to me about having to be able to play all scales in all keys with all possible variations of articulation for his practical. A frikkin’ guitarist. For those of you who don’t know, playing a scale in a different key on a guitar literally involves moving your first finger to a different fret and starting from there. There are two or three patterns you need to learn to be able to handle starting on a different string or different finger. But it’s not hard. I told him he should be ashamed of himself and to stop whining. Playing in all keys on a sax or trumpet or whatever is a totally different kettle of fish. Still necessary to learn. Still ridiculous to be doing a music degree and not be able to just do but definitely much harder.
- KRAKRISMOTT 3y agoYou can study computer science without writing a single line of code. It's no different for music. Learning all the keys by heart is like learning your text editor keybindings, useful, but ultimately has little relevance to actual music theory and composition.
- seanhunter 3y agoYou’ll definitely be hampered in composition if you don’t have decent keyboard fluency and I would say this is table stakes for that. But yes this is more directly relevant to performance. The guitarist in the anecdote above wanted a soloist career so was definitely squarely in the group for which playing scales is a minimum requirement.
- homami 3y agoWe had a CS undergrad intern that didn’t know what i++; means in JavaScript for loops.
- etothepii 3y agoThey didn't know what it means or what it does or that it's important. I'm not sure it matters for most practical uses what i++ means so long as you know it is required. Much as with {} being used for scoping. Though I agree it is jarring how little many in Gen Z know about how anything works.
- Kim_Bruning 3y agoExcept it's not required :-P
- maccard 3y ago> Though I agree it is jarring how little many in Gen Z know about how anything works. I've worked with GenX'ers and Millenials (I'm a millenial), and this isn't unique to GenZ at all. A large number of people don't understand, and are just getting by. Anecdotally, I've seen people at very senior engineering positions who just don't understand the basics of what they're doing. Does that mean that it's jarring how many GenX'ers don't understand?
- wholinator2 3y agoYeah, we see this a lot with younger people because they are just starting in the world. Also, they're the predominate generation right now that's video taping and posting every even possibly interesting moment of their lives, irrespective of whether some 30 year old thinks it's embarrassing. If 60 year olds were posting every strange thought or funny moment we'd have some opinions about them too (Facebook, anyone?) They're just thinking about and misunderstanding a different set of things. But i think the kids are somewhat closer to a humility that might be hard to find elsewhere.
- 3y ago
- _ngbr 3y agoScales can get very very tricky. There are multiple modes of minor, for example, that have different notes ascending and descending. When you combine that with some requirements, like playing the scales the full length of the keyboard up and down at a consistent quick tempo, perhaps in triplets, missing just one note is extremely easy to do. Depending on the requirements of the exam, missing just one note may be enough to hurt your score.
- tgv 3y agoCome on. Scales are not very, very tricky. And you can't really play scales in quavers or triplets: there's no time signature. And there were only two modes (if the story can be trusted to get all details right).
- _ngbr 3y agoStrange that you would feel a need to debate this. Triplets have nothing to do with time signature. Just that point reveals lack of experience in this area. Triplets exist in any time signature or lack of one. They are about beat subdivision. I could explain each of these points in greater detail but I am not compelled to take the time. Playing scales to meter is a common technique. And if I asked even a professional to sit down right now and whip out, say a melodic minor in five flats, four octaves at a quick consistent pace, many would indeed need a quick try first. They do get tricky indeed.
- AlecSchueler 3y agoProfessional musician here. That would be trivial to do, even on my weaker instruments, and even with triplets. Though just give me the tonic name, no need to call it five flats. Edit to add: To be fair I'm about a decade further in my career than someone going to study music for the first time.
- _ngbr 3y agoThat’s great to hear, but allow me to offer a common example. Ask a pianist to quickly play four octaves of melodic minor in thirds, and especially as one hand is ascending and the other is descending at the turning point, and there are two different modes being played simultaneously, many will indeed miss a note. Now make it a less common key, and you can see why it can be tricky for some. Certainly not everyone, for students yes and even some experience pianists may need to practice a bit first. This kind of request is very common at many music schools for these kinds of exams.
- vjk800 3y agoI took piano classes for several years as a child and they made me learn all the scales somewhere around the age of 12 or something. It was standard practice and I can't imagine anyone who took classes in the same music education system as I did and couldn't play all the scales.
- watwut 3y agoI played classical piano too, but never learned scales. It seemed completely useless to me and I was still was able to pass. It still seems completely useless to me, to be honest. The # I am supposed to play are right there in the music sheet notation.
- oriolid 3y agoI did the same, and found out that it's a great way to paint yourself in a corner. In this corner you can learn very complex pieces by practicing learning them from the sheet music, but on the other hand every new piece is an unique snowflake that you star learning from scratch, and it won't help at all with playing by ear, improvising or even much for playing from lead sheets. Yes, I was able to pass the exams by just knowing how scales work and coming up with fingerings on the fly, but in hindsight it wasn't the best idea.
- watwut 3y agoIf we did some improvising, it might be useful. We did no improvising at all, therefore it was just completely useless theory that had literally nothing to do with anything. I think that if they taught us some little improvising, we might see value in scales and maybe I would even ended up liking the piano more. > on the other hand every new piece is an unique snowflake that you star learning from scratch Not really. You still have memory of previous ones and you do hear how it sounds. The intuition builds up, so to say. You do learn to hear and distinguish what sounds good or bad. I kind of do not see how theoretical knowledge of the scales would help here. But also I dropped out the first moment I could, so there is that too. But remembering the pieces was not issue at all. Issue was that I did not even liked music I had to play all that much and playing pieces you dont like much again and again to perfection is not exactly motivating.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- schwartzworld 3y agoSure. I went to music school for trumpet where I learned: - new scales I didn't know about - new ways to play scales I did know - new instruments which required relearning scales. If you're learning to be a music teacher this is often a big part of it
- zsaffir 3y agoWhile students getting a music education degree have to learn all the instruments, they typically have a primary instrument that may or not be piano. If piano isn't their primary instrument there's no reason they would know how to play all the scales before starting the degree.
- devnullbrain 3y agoThat's still concerning. If your mental model of a scale is via the notes, the piano has helpful colour coding. Not being able to use that implies that the scales have instead been memorised by how they're played - frets, valves, etc. - that will stop working when a more in-depth application of keys is needed.
- markatto 3y agoThe piano is not the canonical model of a scale - it’s just a bit more visual than some other instruments. I went to music school and primarily play guitar and violin but can sort of play some keys. I could definitely figure out pretty much any scale on a piano but couldn’t just sit down and immediately play most of them.
- picardythird 3y agoTypically at this level the scales will be performed in more difficult variations, e.g. the right hand plays starting on the third or 6th note of the scale. There are also cases of concert pianists who notoriously refused to practice scales for these kinds of exams.
- slaymaker1907 3y agoEveryone who majors in music has to learn piano (at least for most majors) even if you aren’t a pianist.
- ashtonbaker 3y agoI got into Berklee for piano performance, couldn’t do more than a few scales fluently despite lessons my whole life.
- rvba 3y agoTo be honest, the world is quite strange. You are supposed to know how to play the piano - and well, before you go to music university. Somehow people who study medicine are not expected to have medical knowledge. Precursors sure. Of course I understand that it is a question of supply and demand, for some reason tons of people compete to finish the relatively scarce music university, so the university can demand them to know stuff.
- JoeAltmaier 3y agoJust like in a Chinese musical school, something like 98% are supposed to have perfect pitch. Because they have enough applicants to fill the school even with that bar.