4 ms·

C++ for the next decade

27 points by hermitcrab 18y ago

newt0311 18y ago
It may help if they tried removing things instead of adding more bloat on top.
- hermitcrab 18y ago
  There must be billions of lines of C++ in production systems. Backward compatibility is crucial.
  - curiousgeorge 18y ago
    If you need a fast object-oriented language that can interact with most C software and libraries and doesn't need a fancy GUI, C++ is great.
    - silentbicycle 18y ago
      So is Lua.
    - hermitcrab 18y ago
      C++ does fancy GUIs just fine. See Qt.
      - curiousgeorge 18y ago
        Qt is GPL.
        hermitcrab 18y ago
        Qt has several licences.
        coffeeaddicted 18y ago
        They no longer show prices for the other licenses on their webpage. But a few years back it was high enough to cover about 3 months of my living costs. Which is probably no big deal for larger companies, but for a startup it is.
        curiousgeorge 18y ago
        exactly. funny to be modded down on a hacker forum for pointing out the obvious: the lack of free GUI development tools is a mark against doing GUI development in a specific language.
      - deleted 18y ago
        [deleted]
      - uuilly 18y ago
        Qt is my favorite gui API of all time. Their new IDE is amazing as well: http://trolltech.com/developer/qt-creator http://trolltech.com/developer/qt-creator It feels like google made an IDE. It's got Chrome like simplicity and power. Certainly worth a look if you're Qt hacker.
    - acangiano 18y ago
      > and doesn't need a fancy GUI, C++ is great. And what's great for fancy GUIs? I'm curious too.
      - nostrademons 18y ago
        Whatever's native to the platform. On Windows, that usually means C#/.NET. On Linux, C/Gnome or C++/Qt. On the Mac, Objective-C/Cocoa. On the web, JavaScript.
Allocator2008 18y ago
Java will never, ever replace c++. Because there will always be a need for stuff that "really compiles" rather than "compiles with respect to the JVM" for both performance, and reliability issues. In my personal opinion, Java is a fad for children. However, that may be a bit harsh. Perhaps Java too has its place. But just as sport cars, loved by teenagers, won't ever replace the need for a reliable sedan in one's more mature years, similarly, there will always be grownup applications that need the speed and reliability of c/c++, even if they are not as "easy to program" (read: rely on plug-in libs) or are not as "flashy" in terms of the ui. Just as I personally no longer fancy swing sets, I really haven't a need for SWING either. :-) (Oh, one other thing I almost forgot: Java doesn't have pointers. No programming language without pointers should be taken seriously by people who have reached age 21. It's kind of like having a car without a combustion engine. It's just nonsense.)
- prospero 18y ago
  I honestly can't tell if this is satire. Does your universe of programming languages seriously consist of just C++ and Java? I'm glad that coding in C++ makes you feel like more of a man, but Java's not the only competition. C++ and Java have both (awkwardly) added closures in their latest specification, so they're obviously maneuvering against something outside of your little duality. Also, I don't see how you can knock Java for its libraries when C++ is essentially worthless for large-scale development without Boost.
  - lhorn 18y ago
    prospero, I have been looking for C++ replacement for desktop programs non-stop for at least 5 years and found nothing. Rubies, lisps and pythons are great in a little dark corner of server-side development where everything is under your control, but for targeting thousands of varying desktops you just can't take that route since many additional variables come into play: size of downloads, performance, startup times, windows compatibility, etc etc etc. Plus, all VM-based languages suffer from so-so integration into native OS or/and excessive weight. You can write an IDE or an Excel replacement in them, sure, but most desktop software tends to be much smaller. My last C++ project was a background daemon that would download your RSS feeds and do some fancy parsing. I wish I could show you how much memory Java prototype has eaten vs C++ version processing the same OPML file. No, C++ is not "essentially worthless" without Boost. In fact I never use all of Boost: your build times becomes #1 conversation topic in the office when you do. It's better to cherry-pick a few important and lightweight pieces (like pointers, any, functional, etc). Don't forget about HUGE selection of plain C libraries too. Whatever C++ has been used for is still being written and re-written in C++ as we speak. Newer languages and paradigms wiped out the giant Visual Basic army of developers (yes, this is what people used to code "basecamps of the 90s" in, but I don't see these languages threaten C++/C/Obj-C domination for desktop software on Win/Linux/OSX. In fact, how many native Python or Ruby GUI libraries are out there? I haven't heard of one. Only bindings to GTK/Qt. With all that said, I will be the first to jump the wagon. If I ever get so lucky.
jwilliams 18y ago
Being 4th for questions on stackoverflow (as the article mentions) could mean a lot of things... could mean it's popular, could also mean that people using it have more questions.
- jimbokun 18y ago
  The trend it's moving in is also important. If stackoverflow debuted 10 years ago, where would C++ be on that list? What does that imply for how much C++ will be used in the future?
sireat 18y ago
For some reason, programming "pure" C instead of C++ gives me more satisfaction.

27 points by hermitcrab 18y ago

newt0311 18y ago

It may help if they tried removing things instead of adding more bloat on top.

hermitcrab 18y ago
There must be billions of lines of C++ in production systems. Backward compatibility is crucial.
- curiousgeorge 18y ago
  If you need a fast object-oriented language that can interact with most C software and libraries and doesn't need a fancy GUI, C++ is great.
  - silentbicycle 18y ago
    So is Lua.
  - hermitcrab 18y ago
    C++ does fancy GUIs just fine. See Qt.
    - curiousgeorge 18y ago
      Qt is GPL.
      - hermitcrab 18y ago
        Qt has several licences.
        coffeeaddicted 18y ago
        They no longer show prices for the other licenses on their webpage. But a few years back it was high enough to cover about 3 months of my living costs. Which is probably no big deal for larger companies, but for a startup it is.
        curiousgeorge 18y ago
        exactly. funny to be modded down on a hacker forum for pointing out the obvious: the lack of free GUI development tools is a mark against doing GUI development in a specific language.
    - deleted 18y ago
      [deleted]
    - uuilly 18y ago
      Qt is my favorite gui API of all time. Their new IDE is amazing as well: http://trolltech.com/developer/qt-creator http://trolltech.com/developer/qt-creator It feels like google made an IDE. It's got Chrome like simplicity and power. Certainly worth a look if you're Qt hacker.
  - acangiano 18y ago
    > and doesn't need a fancy GUI, C++ is great. And what's great for fancy GUIs? I'm curious too.
    - nostrademons 18y ago
      Whatever's native to the platform. On Windows, that usually means C#/.NET. On Linux, C/Gnome or C++/Qt. On the Mac, Objective-C/Cocoa. On the web, JavaScript.

Allocator2008 18y ago

Java will never, ever replace c++. Because there will always be a need for stuff that "really compiles" rather than "compiles with respect to the JVM" for both performance, and reliability issues. In my personal opinion, Java is a fad for children. However, that may be a bit harsh. Perhaps Java too has its place. But just as sport cars, loved by teenagers, won't ever replace the need for a reliable sedan in one's more mature years, similarly, there will always be grownup applications that need the speed and reliability of c/c++, even if they are not as "easy to program" (read: rely on plug-in libs) or are not as "flashy" in terms of the ui. Just as I personally no longer fancy swing sets, I really haven't a need for SWING either. :-) (Oh, one other thing I almost forgot: Java doesn't have pointers. No programming language without pointers should be taken seriously by people who have reached age 21. It's kind of like having a car without a combustion engine. It's just nonsense.)

prospero 18y ago
I honestly can't tell if this is satire. Does your universe of programming languages seriously consist of just C++ and Java? I'm glad that coding in C++ makes you feel like more of a man, but Java's not the only competition. C++ and Java have both (awkwardly) added closures in their latest specification, so they're obviously maneuvering against something outside of your little duality. Also, I don't see how you can knock Java for its libraries when C++ is essentially worthless for large-scale development without Boost.
- lhorn 18y ago
  prospero, I have been looking for C++ replacement for desktop programs non-stop for at least 5 years and found nothing. Rubies, lisps and pythons are great in a little dark corner of server-side development where everything is under your control, but for targeting thousands of varying desktops you just can't take that route since many additional variables come into play: size of downloads, performance, startup times, windows compatibility, etc etc etc. Plus, all VM-based languages suffer from so-so integration into native OS or/and excessive weight. You can write an IDE or an Excel replacement in them, sure, but most desktop software tends to be much smaller. My last C++ project was a background daemon that would download your RSS feeds and do some fancy parsing. I wish I could show you how much memory Java prototype has eaten vs C++ version processing the same OPML file. No, C++ is not "essentially worthless" without Boost. In fact I never use all of Boost: your build times becomes #1 conversation topic in the office when you do. It's better to cherry-pick a few important and lightweight pieces (like pointers, any, functional, etc). Don't forget about HUGE selection of plain C libraries too. Whatever C++ has been used for is still being written and re-written in C++ as we speak. Newer languages and paradigms wiped out the giant Visual Basic army of developers (yes, this is what people used to code "basecamps of the 90s" in, but I don't see these languages threaten C++/C/Obj-C domination for desktop software on Win/Linux/OSX. In fact, how many native Python or Ruby GUI libraries are out there? I haven't heard of one. Only bindings to GTK/Qt. With all that said, I will be the first to jump the wagon. If I ever get so lucky.

jwilliams 18y ago

Being 4th for questions on stackoverflow (as the article mentions) could mean a lot of things... could mean it's popular, could also mean that people using it have more questions.

jimbokun 18y ago
The trend it's moving in is also important. If stackoverflow debuted 10 years ago, where would C++ be on that list? What does that imply for how much C++ will be used in the future?

sireat 18y ago

For some reason, programming "pure" C instead of C++ gives me more satisfaction.