6 ms·

Before Commerzbank unceremoniously canceled my account after more than a decade of business, they were charging me “negative interest” for quite a while, on any

• rajin444 3y ago
  Aren’t they? Banks are out to make a profit not better the lives of their customers. Certain industries are nationalized for good reason.
  • wyager 3y ago
    American banks don't rip us off to that degree. They aren't nationalized. The biggest rip-off in American banking is that narrow banking is effectively illegal (not the banks' fault), but HYSAs are starting to get around that.
    • xp84 3y ago
      > to that degree An important qualifier! I get the impression that probably 95% of consumer deposits in the US either earn zero interest or some comically low rate like 0.00121% that all of the big banks offer on their savings, Interest Checking, and even "money market" accounts. And they also exploit people with monthly fees that can only be waived with minimum balances or by jumping through hoops like debit card usage. And "using other ATM" fees from 2 banks at once usually. But apparently it could be worse with transaction fees and negative interest! I feel like the few in the US who are savvy about personal finance have found the banks/CUs (i won't list them to avoid sounding promotional) that don't do any of the above. It doesn't say in the article where they are seeing these outflows actually go. I wonder if Europe also has good banking options that not everyone is aware of.
      • OkayPhysicist 3y ago
        Only the absolute worst bank accounts in the US have monthly fees. And effectively no credit unions do. I certainly wouldn't sign up for an account that charges me anything, but I've never had to bail on making an account because they would have.
        • xp84 3y ago
          > Only the absolute worst bank accounts in the US have monthly fees Sure, and those worst banks have massive market share[1]. I'm sure maybe 50-60% of the people with these accounts actually manage to correctly avoid the fees by minimum balances or direct deposits or the "use your debit card 10 times a month" policies. But like, Chase, BofA, Wells Fargo, Citibank... combined, their market share is massive. Chase, BofA and Citi are $12, Wells is $10. All require you to do certain things each month to waive the fee -- which seems easy to me with a steady job and savings, but a lot of people don't have that. [1] https://wallethub.com/edu/sa/bank-market-share-by-deposits/25587 https://wallethub.com/edu/sa/bank-market-share-by-deposits/2...
    • SllX 3y ago
      I don’t even feel ripped off by my banks at all. I’m selective about who I open accounts with and there’s no shortage of options.
      • junipertea 3y ago
        Until the options go bankrupt
        • SllX 3y ago
          A risk in any market economy, but I feel pretty good about my choices and the options in my area where both First Republic and SVB were have not significantly diminished.
        • deleted 3y ago
          [deleted]
    • mmd45 3y ago
      i've never heard the term narrow banking, but after looking it up isn't that effectively what this company is attempting: https://jiko.io/ https://jiko.io/
      • prottog 3y ago
        It's not. A narrow bank is one that effectively passes on the federal funds rate as interest to a demand checking account. T-bills are a completely different animal.
        • SilasX 3y ago
          Merely substituting one low-risk instrument for another doesn't seem like a meaningful difference in this context. Coincidentally, just two days ago I commented on the distinction to someone suggesting this kind of service: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35790913 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35790913
          • prottog 3y ago
            There's one critical difference, which is that only chartered banks within the Federal Reserve system can take advantage of the federal funds rate, whereas anyone (including individuals) can buy T-bills. The Fed, for various reasons, implicitly disallow this type of narrow bank. Several people have tried but the Fed always denied their application to join the system.
            • SilasX 3y ago
              Aren’t they basically the same rate?
• bagels 3y ago
  Sounds like the perception matches reality given your experiences.
• f6v 3y ago
  I have several bank accounts. One charges flat monthly fee(that’s very low), one has positive interest(way smaller than inflation), one is free. All in three different counties. But I don’t argue your experience is unique. It’s in general very hard to open a bank account in some EU countries even though you’re a lawful resident. There’re some “money laundering laws” that prevent no money laundering. And the quality and quantity of additional services the banks offer sucks. I actually like banking super-apps in other countries, something you won’t find here.
• peterfirefly 3y ago
  > because I’m not an EU citizen. Are you a US citizen? American laws make US citizens costly to have as customers.
  • ornornor 3y ago
    No bank will touch you with a ten foot pole if you are even remotely associated with the US.
    • SaltySolomon 3y ago
      Yep, and I find it so very American to leave that tid bit out of their complaint and then it getting upvoted because muh evil EU? when its really the US goverment screwing their abroad citizens in this case.
    • mdp2021 3y ago
      Why? What are the issues involved?
      • iudqnolq 3y ago
        FATCA reporting. Roughly speaking Congress was worried about Americans hiding money abroad to avoid taxes so they passed extremely punitive laws. This ended up being mostly pointless because the real tax evasion is done by people who pay lawyers and lovbyists to make sure it's all legal. If a foreign financial institution has a US depositor they have to fill out a ton of IRS paperwork. If they mess it up the IRS can impose an extra 30% tax on all the institution's US income.
    • biztos 3y ago
      I’m a U.S. citizen and currently have bank accounts in 3 EU countries and one other non-US country. The bank I expect will kick me out doesn’t want non-EU citizens who are not EU residents. The bank that did, I think it was because of my citizenship (I was a German permanent resident at the time) but I’ll never really know as they didn’t give a reason, just 60 days notice. Banks will deal with you, but not all banks, and some banking products (like brokerage accounts) are off limits.
• cromulent 3y ago
  > A third will probably kick me out soon, because I’m not an EU citizen. Give them a hard time about it. "If you are legally resident in an EU country you are entitled to open a basic payment account". https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/financial-products-and-services/bank-accounts-eu/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/financial-pr...
  • tapland 3y ago
    Didn't stop SEB in Sweden from threatening to close my US national, and 10 years a SE resident, partners account when they wanted to cash the first stimulus check. Doesn't seem ideal while simultaneously repeatedly begging the same rare US nationals with Swedish residence permits to move to work their mainframes, but who am I to judge.
    • ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago
      Your partner can hold US account details via TransferWise for use with US matters. Why are you depositing paper checks in USD outside the US? That is madness.
• agilob 3y ago
  That's so far from my experiences in 3 countries. In the UK Monzo and Revoult have quick access free bank accounts. I don't pay anything to have debit cards and saving accounts. 1 account in Germany, I pay 2€ per month for the account, includes a saving account, but no debit or credit card, only online access. 2 accounts in Poland where I also don't pay anything, unless I don't spent 300-350PLN (65e) per month using the debit cards. If I don't use debit card enough banks subtract 14PLN (3€). My saving accounts in PLN are 7%, 8% and 10%. Maybe talk to your coworkers about better banks and deals, you're being taken advantage of.
  • simonh 3y ago
    It varies a lot by country. France is unbelievably bad.
    • agiamas 3y ago
      exactly. UK has fierce banking competition and you have so many digital banks that compete with the brick and mortar and beat them on pretty much everything except for not having actual branches. It's the closest you can be to being happy with..banks :) Then you go to Greece and you pay exorbitant transaction fees for everything. 3E for any incoming transfer, regardless of amount. 10-15E to transfer 10k between banks in the country. Sky high interest rates for lending, unreasonable guarantee requirements and it's still really hard to get a loan. And then you get 0.25% for saving accounts. e-banking that may be pretty looking but a shame functionality wise. And you only have 4 banks (+1 zombie bank). The bankers are still making bonuses like it's 2007 and the public is funding them with transaction fees. The traditional banking business model of making money from the spread between lending and savings rate is pretty much dead. I can't believe there can be any other country worse than Greece in the EU. Change my mind =)
    • pif 3y ago
      You are right on "unbelievably". In my experience, bank service in France is fine.
      • mdp2021 3y ago
• mk89 3y ago
  Use ING it's free, as long as you use that for your income. Never heard of 40eur/month - that seems like you have some sort of super premium account with multiple credit cards or so. > My first guess would be that Europeans have a perception that their banks are exploiting them, and given any other rational option they will try it out. Because that's the case! Most banks are STILL giving you 0.001% as interest, which is a joke considering everything happening around. Some banks are promising 3% p.a. for X months only (for new accounts only) - they really don't want to lose a cent. What other option do we have? Burning money on the bank with inflation going up like crazy and banks getting, as usual, even richer.
  • halfdan 3y ago
    My guess is that their assets are similarly exposed like SVB or First Republic's. Any long term asset they hold has just lost a massive amount of value and so they need to make up for it by taking the ECB rate and not passing it on to customers. The fee banks that do pass it on will only do so for newly deposited money.
• bitL 3y ago
  Switch to N26?
• ciconia 3y ago
  > because I’m not an EU citizen. Are you a resident though? If you pay your taxes in the EU, you should have access to advantageous deposit rates and you'll pay no charges for transfers (inside the EU). FWIW In France currently banks pay about 4% on deposits (up to a certain ceiling). The only charge I currently pay for my banking services is 2€/month, including a debit card.
• matheusmoreira 3y ago
  Monthly fee for the privilege of allowing banks to profit off of your money. Fees for moving bits in a database. It's insane that people actually buy these "services".
  • moffkalast 3y ago
    Well the problem is that they're ALL like that, it's some cartel bullshit. There is literally no bank in my country that doesn't charge fat fees. Even credit unions want at least like 8€/month for just a starter account with online banking, plus the 1.5€ fee for each SEPA transfer, seriously. Back when I learned that this isn't standard procedure worldwide my mind was completely blown. As for alternatives, there are pseudo-banks one might use like N26, Revolut, Wise and similar, but each one of those can at any point terminate your account for no reason, some don't even allow receiving money from accounts not in your name so you can't use them as actual bank accounts. They're not exactly a thing one can keep savings in.
    • SilasX 3y ago
      Hold on -- sometimes when they're all charging the same price, it's because that's actually "the market price" in the sense that it wouldn't be profitable to do it for an less, and they actually have their own high costs they have to take care of. If there's free entry into this sector, and all banks find they have to do things that way, then that might just be what's going on. From what I understand, Europe typically has postal banking that's minimal fee and should be a release valve against other banks' excess, which would for the "legit price" hypothesis. But if it's very very difficult to start new banks, or for existing businesses to start serving this demand, that would favor the cartel hypothesis.
      • moffkalast 3y ago
        I would expect it to be a mix of both, it has to be more of an expense to run physical branches while catering to a smaller market. But I would be amazed if they don't also blow those figures up beyond what's required to cover those extra expenses just because people have no real alternative to switch to. The largest bank had record profits for the last 3 years straight, and I'm not convinced it's just an inflation artefact. Haven't heard of any postal banks, but digging a little it seems like we did have at least one... which merged with a commercial bank a decade ago. Sounds about right.
• dtech 3y ago
  Are you an US citizen? European banks have for a large part stopped serving US citizens because of FACTA and similar requirements US puts on them [1]. [1] https://ellentimmer.com/2020/08/04/fatca-30/ https://ellentimmer.com/2020/08/04/fatca-30/
  • zinekeller 3y ago
    Sounds like it. Non-US person but also not an EU citizen (or EEA or Swiss or even British) and... apart from the negative rate (which is true), I honestly never encountered unceremoniously closing accounts while Americans complain it all the time (and they usually know it's because of FATCA - they also wish it was gone but they don't make the decisions: Americans at home are the ones deciding that they really want to see everone's account in the name of tax evasion).
  • biztos 3y ago
    Yes, but my banks all know that. So far the only one to kick me out is Commerzbank and they didn’t give a reason, but I suspect it was that reason. But generally speaking, my European friends all have an animosity towards banks I have not seen in other countries.