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Adult-use cannabis delivers $15B in tax revenues

190 points by DocFeind 3y ago

eppp 3y ago
What category did the $15B get reallocated from though? Was it a net positive or negative change?
- rgbrenner 3y ago
  Pretty sure people used cannabis before it was legal… so it was reallocated from the cartels and local drug dealers.
  - Brendinooo 3y ago
    Legalizing something doesn't make it more popular?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - HDThoreaun 3y ago
      Not necessarily. Cannabis was extremely easy to find and there are reasons that something being banned would make it more exciting and popular. It's also gotten more expensive in many of the legal states.
      - Taywee 3y ago
        Here in Colorado, I can get an ounce for under $50: https://cannabisdepotco.com/menu/pueblo?store_path=%2Fmenu%2Fmid-shelf-blue-phasma-70-oz-otd https://cannabisdepotco.com/menu/pueblo?store_path=%2Fmenu%2... That's what I used to pay for an eighth.
        HDThoreaun 3y ago
        In Illinois an ounce costs a solid $300+ at the stores.
        Taywee 3y ago
        Might be taxed at a really high rate, or production might be low. Took Colorado a long time for the prices to really go down, and it still varies a ton from city to city.
    - becquerel 3y ago
      It can do. If weed was made legal here I would jump on it immediately; the only reason I don't currently is because it's too much of a hassle to find someone who sells it and I can trust. When I was in California with a friend they ordered some on an app and a guy pulled up in their parking lot twenty minutes later. That's legalisation bringing barriers to entry way down, which is a surefire way to increase popularity.
    - Taywee 3y ago
      More popular and significantly less expensive, usually.
  - Mountain_Skies 3y ago
    Not sure if this is what the other poster was going for but increases in spending in one area often comes at the expense of another area. That can come in the form of the illegal drug industry losing revenue to the legal drug industry and the government getting a share, but it also can come in the form of other spending that would have taken place now not taking place as users of legalized drugs are spending their money on those products instead of spending on going out to eat as often, buying fewer video games, purchasing less alcohol, going on fewer trips, etc. Tax revenue from that spending that has been displaced into the legal drug industry should be subtracted out of the $15 billion if the point here is that legalization increased government revenue. Of course, that's going to be very difficult to calculate since those displacement activities are on the individual level.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  Given the widespread availability of cannabis prior to it being legally available for purchase, I would assume almost all of it is positive.
- ericpauley 3y ago
  Probably positive change in tax revenue, since cannibis is extremely tax-inefficient. (e.g., https://www.irs.gov/about-irs/providing-resources-to-help-cannabis-business-owners-successfully-navigate-unique-tax-responsibilities https://www.irs.gov/about-irs/providing-resources-to-help-ca...)
- AndrewKemendo 3y ago
  Totally anecdotal but I personally reallocated spending away from alcohol and nicotine after receiving my medical cannabis prescription and working with my therapists and doctors on monitoring. My life is so much healthier and better in every possible way and I directly attribute cannabis to being a major part of addressing severe trauma, PTSD, MDD, and anxiety (after 20 years of federal affiliation prevented it). Also, note that the recreational (and medical) market has enough options of tinctures, oils infusions etc... that it's trivial to avoid combustion smoking. I am unaware of any long term studies that show medical risks to consuming THC, CBN, CBD in a non-combustion way.
  - OvidStavrica 3y ago
    https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/cognitive-effects-of-long-term-cannabis-use-in-midlife-202206142760 https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/cognitive-effects-of-lon... https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/972160 https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/972160 Hope this help.
    - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
      Helps what?
penjelly 3y ago
Soma vibes
- Cthulhu_ 3y ago
  Same can be said about alcohol, tobacco, opiate painkillers, flu medication and low energy entertainment though.
  - Spivak 3y ago
    And non-opiate painkillers, anti-anxiety medications, antidepressants, stimulants. "What if people were happy and content with life but its actually bad" is such a puritan view of the world.
    - swexbe 3y ago
      If modern society is inherently alienating, then SSRI's & others are not an ideal long-term solution at a societal level. Not sure how believing that makes me a puritan.
  - penjelly 3y ago
    im pro cannabis and i agree with your points. Just an observation
- eternalban 3y ago
  I wonder if the opioids crisis had a hand in changing the approach to pot, to provide a manageable alternative comfort drug.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    I am assuming the approach to cannabis was purely due to racism/classism so that authorities have something to nail minorities with, and as civil rights progresses, those laws are changed.
    - 3y ago
throwaway22032 3y ago
Meanwhile there are places banning tobacco. We're just swapping burning one herb for another. Personally I don't smoke but having tried both, nicotine is hands down better. It sharpens the mind, unlike cannabis which always just made me feel like I'd lowered my IQ. They're both obviously hilariously unhealthy.
- Spivak 3y ago
  This might be true but without question cannabis is the safer recreational drug. If you don't want government involved at all I can see the argument for both but if you have to choose one it's cannabis every time.
- piyh 3y ago
  Tobacco is highly addictive and carcinogenic. Marijuana doesn't cause physical withdrawals, and while certainly isn't good for your health, it does not cause lung cancer and emphysema anywhere close to the rates of tobacco.
  - femiagbabiaka 3y ago
    Modern marijuana is highly addictive and does in fact cause physical withdrawals (digestive problems, lack of appetite) as well as mental health issues (mood swings, hypervivid dreams). The levels of THC in modern strains available at most dispensaries are entirely too high.
    - arcticbull 3y ago
      Do you have some studies on that? The studies I've seen put the number around 10% [2] and I'm not sure I'd call that "highly addictive." Alcohol is around 6.7% [1] [1] https://drugabusestatistics.org/alcohol-abuse-statistics/ https://drugabusestatistics.org/alcohol-abuse-statistics/ [2] https://www.uptodate.com/contents/cannabis-withdrawal?topicRef=7797&source=see_link https://www.uptodate.com/contents/cannabis-withdrawal?topicR...
      - 3y ago
intellectronica 3y ago
And how much does juvenile-use cannabis deliver in tax revenue? ;)
- abofh 3y ago
  Likely similar to as Juvenile-use alcohol use. Your snark is cute, but your reasoning flawed - people buy drugs (alcohol, tobacco, firearms, weed); If there's easier ways to get it that are taxed, those channels tend to get used.
  - Spivak 3y ago
    > similar to as Juvenile-use alcohol use Which to put a fine point on it is 100% taxed because adults buy alcohol for kids via the same avenues as for themselves. Nobody brews their own beer specifically to sell to teenagers.
  - intellectronica 3y ago
    No reasoning at all - I just found the title funny, since obviously it's only adult use that is counted.
- itomato 3y ago
  It’s an important question. This market is in some part responsible for the explosion in CBD strains and products. Think back to Charlottes Web and what a ripple it caused, arguably influential in the passage of hemp reform in the farm bill. I’d be curious to see data on use vs legalization and the demographics of tax revenue.
simonswords82 3y ago
Meanwhile the UK has got it's thumb up its ass and is happily maintaining a status quo of the worst of all worlds 1) The police are still supposed to arrest people who are caught with cannabis (It's a class B drug - in the same group as codeine, ketamine, and ‘spice’ - whatever the hell that is). In reality they typically let people off with a warning but it's still a drain on our already hamstrung police force 2) Drug dealers who sell weed tend not to declare and pay tax on their earnings. Depriving UK Gov of some seriously needed income per this article's headline. 3) Drug dealers tend to sell other drugs, usually harder drugs. Thus exposing people who want to get stoned to a plethora of other drugs that they might otherwise not have come in to contact with. 4) Those people who are hooked on weed (or any other non-prescribed drug) are criminals...and cannot seek help from anybody including their doctor. This keeps them trapped, and over a long enough period of time will do mental and potentially physical damage to them that our NHS will incur costs to fix. And when I say NHS, I mean the tax payers, and when I say tax payers - I mean me. All of that is to say - fuck UK drug policy. I remain hopeful that it will change though...
- eimrine 3y ago
  > fuck UK drug policy And UK policy on (potentially) crypted data.
- column 3y ago
  if you think that's the WORST of all worlds.. In Switzerland police might request a blood test to know if your weed is actually CBD (which is legal), and you have to cover the bill for the blood test REGARDLESS OF THE TEST RESULT.
  - simonswords82 3y ago
    Wow that's nuts - I did not know that.
  - whimsicalism 3y ago
    how would a blood test possibly prove this? "oh - this is CBD weed, but I did just get back from America where I was smoking a ton"
thrwawayzsd 3y ago
I wonder how much revenue is displaced. This isn't necessarily an increase in tax revenue. My personal anecdote is I've replaced social drinking with social cannabis use now that it's legal. It feels good and I don't have to worry about the hang over. The cost is fairly similar for a night of drinking or a few joints.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- peteradio 3y ago
  > few joints Hope you're sharing Cheech.
ryanianian 3y ago
Hugged to death: https://web.archive.org/web/20230502143621/https://www.greenmarketreport.com/adult-use-cannabis-has-delivered-15-billion-in-tax-revenues/ https://web.archive.org/web/20230502143621/https://www.green... Better takeaway is actually: > For the first time in the U.S., adult-use cannabis tax revenue declined across legal states in 2022.
- PragmaticPulp 3y ago
  The decline is definitely more interesting than the headline. The headline number is also a cumulative total since legalization started. The annual tax revenue is around $4 billion: > According to a new report from the Marijuana Policy Project, cannabis sales tax generated a healthy $3.77 billion in 2022, but that was slightly below 2021’s tax revenue of $3.86 billion. The article doesn't speculate why revenues are declining. I wonder why. Maybe past high revenues were an artifact of people staying home during COVID? Or is it a result of decreasing prices? I'm not a consumer, so I don't really know what's going on in the market.
  - givinguflac 3y ago
    The market is going through equalization with prices bottoming out over the next 6-12 months. There will be lots of smaller shops bought up by multi-state companies.
  - throwaway0989 3y ago
    I know a number of people who are tired of high priced dispensaries and have started to grow or buy from friends again. Prices everywhere I've seen are really high, for hemp-derived products too.
  - tmpz22 3y ago
    Anecdotally a lot of people over-used during COVID and have diminished the habit since. As another mentioned increasing costs in a questionable economy doesn't help either. I've personally experienced shrinkflation to the greatest extent of any consumer product in weed and weed accessories.
  - 3y ago
eugenekolo 3y ago
*Has delivered. This is since 2014. What a strange title to mask the actual first line: " 2022 tax collection dipped from 2021."
nimbius 3y ago
I always had high hopes (pardon the pun) that cannabis decriminalization would look similar to homebrew beer culture and we might see a horticulture boom. Many states sadly only took steps to create a states monopoly on the distribution of this narcotic with no real reforms to criminalization of cultivation. Californias experiment with decriminalization was after five years revealed for its true intent: unchecked greed at the hand of a 70% tax rate. https://www.npr.org/2021/11/07/1053387426/5-years-after-california-legalized-weed-the-illicit-market-dominates https://www.npr.org/2021/11/07/1053387426/5-years-after-cali...
- whimsicalism 3y ago
  Where I grew up (DC), you are only allowed to cultivate & not allowed to buy/sell. Also, you definitely just pulled that 70% number out of your ass
- Moneyyyyy 3y ago
  In Germany it will be allowed to have three plants at home. And canabisclub who is doing the growing for/with you. This should allow for more grow culture.
  - GordonS 3y ago
    > In Germany it will be allowed to have three plants at home. Isn't that only for personal use though (i.e. you can't sell it)?
  - saiya-jin 3y ago
    I am so disappointed with the path Germany took. Its clear above all it poses no serious risk to general population, especially when compared to alcohol and tobacco. Yet they do this crappy in-between, which excludes most people (no, I dont want to have growing aparatus at home and tinker with setup, worry for vacations fire hazards etc), excludes completely access to more advanced and healthier forms (vapes are by far the best and healthiest way for me, dont force me to smoke stuff, I actually care about my health and state should appreciate that). The problem is, what Germany pushes for sets the tone in rest of EU, and they did set the bar very low. They could have been champions of personal freedom, but they decide to drag this, I guess to please (clueless) conservatives.
IMTDb 3y ago
$15B combined since legalisation started; and revenues are dipping. For reference; Alcohol generates roughly $10B per year (https://www.statista.com/statistics/248952/revenues-from-alcohol-tax-and-forecast-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/248952/revenues-from-alc...). Tobacco as well (https://www.statista.com/statistics/248964/revenues-from-tobacco-tax-and-forecast-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/248964/revenues-from-tob...) I was not able to find reputable sources for Cannabis; the numbers in the article are coming from "Marijuana Policy Project", which makes them highly suspicious since the stated goal of the organisation is: (form their own website): "The Marijuana Policy Project (MPP) is the number one organization in the U.S. dedicated to legalizing cannabis". So they would likely use any calculations methods that would paint cannabis in a good way.
- arcticbull 3y ago
  How are the savings from not wasting the time of the police, and not putting people in prison?
  - beerpls 3y ago
    Probably not very high. I know a lot of people who sell hard drugs and get caught selling said drugs. They spend a night in jail, bail out and go on probation where they can time the ankle monitor to know exactly when they have to stop drinking at parties I’ve seen people drive kilos of coke across the country for years without being caught or having any worry I’m all for weed but the idea that we’re locking people up in prisons for smoking a joint is very misguided compared to what the legal system really behaves like
    - arcticbull 3y ago
      Any arrest or criminal record also reduces your future earning potential significantly and hence your tax value to the state. In some studies it can be mid-20%-ish. Drug convictions or even arrests make you ineligible to enter many other countries, make it very difficult to travel, and make it difficult to get a job. You don't have to end up in prison to waste the state's money and to materially impact your life and productivity.
itomato 3y ago
I will never drink alcohol again. I don’t need to or want to. That has to scare somebody.
- Spivak 3y ago
  As compared to cannabis? I completely agree. Everyone's mileage may vary but my reaction to it is the same "unsober" feeling from alcohol but without the sick or hangover. I've never laughed so hard as when I smoke which is something I don't get from alcohol.
  - lpa22 3y ago
    I completely agree. Weed has replaced almost my entire alcohol consumption which was a lot. The “unsober” feeling is key here
- criddell 3y ago
  I can't imagine I would ever stop. I don't drink very much (maybe 1 drink a week) but what I do have I really enjoy. I also enjoy cooking with it. Deglazing a pan with some red wine after you seared a big piece of beef is a great way to start a sauce.
rr808 3y ago
For 2022 it was $3.8 Billion or $11 per person, which is a lot higher than I expected. https://www.mpp.org/issues/legalization/cannabis-tax-revenue-states-regulate-cannabis-adult-use/ https://www.mpp.org/issues/legalization/cannabis-tax-revenue...
sam_goody 3y ago
What is the scope of Cannabis related costs (such as gov covered rehab, disability from those that did dangerous stuff on drugs, O.D.'s or took something contaminated, non employment from those that cannot hold a job, what amount of social cannabis is a gateway to heavier stuff, etc.) I know that there are many factors here - legal vs illegal (where any tax is better than no tax) clean vs dirty (where I presume the higher the legality the more likely it is safe), the social advantages and alternatives (where people who have an active social life are more productive), etc.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  I imagine inconsequential compared to societal costs of refined sugar, saturated fats, and alcohol.
  - steve76 3y ago
    [dead]
- whalesalad 3y ago
  > disability from those that did dangerous stuff on drugs, O.D.'s or took something contaminated, non employment from those that cannot hold a job, what amount of social cannabis is a gateway to heavier stuff, etc. Cannabis is really not what you think it is.
  - sam_goody 3y ago
    Perhaps, I do not take any recreational drugs, so I might have the wrong mental image. But I do work with teenagers, and have heard from many that blame their lack of class or job stability on marijuana, who complain that they have lost years of their life in a cloud, or that have done stupid stuff because they were either high, or bec. they were stressed out when not high. I know a kid who is a lost cause, and his friends claim he took contaminated drugs; are they wrong? I cannot imagine that it isn't a gateway - its not catchy like LSD, but someone who makes out with friends is surely more likely to try LSD, Meth or Coke, no?! Would love to hear more - I know lots of people who encourage me to try a joint or two! BTW, I saw once a similar comparison of cigarette taxes vs related costs. Surprisingly worthy comparison.
easytiger 3y ago
That would tobacco's tax revenues a positive thing too.
theK 3y ago
Awesome news! But I think reports that only focus on tax income are underselling the results of cannabis legalization policy slightly. What I would be much more interested in would be the whole picture, ie. added to the tax income we should also be able to see the taxpayer money saved by relieving the police, corrective and judicial systems of cannabis related processes.
roschdal 3y ago
I knew it! Americans have been doped for a long time.
nashashmi 3y ago
Getting money from drugs is still getting money from drugs. We also get money from casinos. No good things come from this. And for those who believe that a annual decline in drug sales supports the idea of legalizing it, don't you think these companies will act with the most sinister of intentions like so many before them have acted? Like Juul, big tobacco, beer, fentanyl, and casinos? The profit is great. The evil is greater. (Quran 2:19)
- wootland 3y ago
  > No good things come from this. Much of the art/music created in the past 100 years was done under the influence of marijuana. In addition to extremely helpful therapeutic benefits (mainly around improving sleep, diet and lowering stress). You can't make the claim that nothing good comes from marijuana. In fact, I think it would be very difficult to claim that it has a net negative effect given that you can't OD on it and people that use it don't tend to start fights, kill people, rob... like they do with alcohol and other various drugs.
  - nashashmi 3y ago
    I don't know how you can claim the art and music derived under influence as positive benefits. Alcohol has provided similar "therapeutics" to overworked people. But in retrospect, disconnecting the brain to stressors is difficult to argue as a positive effect. Stressors cause the body to adjust for tasks. Likewise, inducing hallucinations and mental states of poor mobility yet calling it therapy is like removing a few cells from the brian and saying the effects are good because the existing problems are worse. Arguments like alcohol is worse because of A,B,C and therefore Marijuana is better, is like saying "the other guy is much worse than me and therefore I am OK." Or "America is better than other countries so we have nothing to improve." You can't use the lack of certain negatives as justifications. It still has other negatives that the former does not have.
    - wootland 3y ago
      > I don't know how you can claim the art and music derived under influence as positive benefits. For the millions (billions?) of people who have enjoyed this art, I'd say it's pretty positive. FWIW I also think alcohol should remain legal and would literally never give up a good after-work beer. People are capable of having positive relationships with alcohol.
cronix 3y ago
It's been legal recreationally in Oregon for a number of years now, and medically legal for 10 or so years before that. Basically the same story...record tax receipts at first, but slipping the last few years[1]. There have also been a lot of stories in the couple of years or so regarding massive cartel growing operations[1] blending in with the legal grows, flooding the market with cheaper cannabis. These are usually staffed by people who are the victims of human trafficking[2] working off their "debt." A lot of people are going back to black market cannabis because there are no taxes, so it's about 20% cheaper right off the top. [1] https://www.bizjournals.com/portland/news/2022/09/06/oregon-cannabis-tax-revenue-falls.html https://www.bizjournals.com/portland/news/2022/09/06/oregon-... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/12/oregon-marijuana-illegal-farms-environment https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/12/oregon-marij... [3] https://abcnews.go.com/US/narco-slaves-migrant-workers-face-abuse-oregons-cartel/story?id=95069523 https://abcnews.go.com/US/narco-slaves-migrant-workers-face-...
- eschulz 3y ago
  I'm concerned legal cannabis with very high tax rates has created an ideal situation for criminal cartels. A criminal group can utilize legal businesses for growing expertise, cleaning money, etc. Meanwhile, the criminals may be more than happy to use extreme violence and forced labor to get their way. I've seen things online about illegal grow operations in CA with a surprisingly bad impact on the environment since apparently the individuals managing these rural greenhouses don't care about litter or pollution, just like they probably don't care about their laborers. The law has given their mules protection to move products, and their customers a financial incentive to go with the risky illegal pot.
sneak 3y ago
Where I am from, this means that white and white adjacent people are now making revenues that formerly went to black people.
maerF0x0 3y ago
I had an debate with a friend's wife a while back (these always go over so well). That there's a bothersome logical inconsistency of having Alcohol XOR THC products (of many kinds). ie Either both should be legal, or neither. As far as I can tell keeping alcohol legalized is simply having the moderate 59%[1] of drinkers use tyranny of the majority to enforce their freedom at deep detriment to both the hazardous/heavy drinkers (but also to everyone because the negative effects of drinking distribute to moderate/non-drinkers. I presume that this is also heavily lobbied by Alcohol industry in the US because more than 2/3rds of revenue come from heavy drinkers. And grabbing the first headline that matches my theory it seems like tax revenue doesnt cover the societal costs [2] Related to the topic at hand it seems the societal costs of alcohol abuse is greater than drug use[3] (all drugs combine). So again, if Alcohol is Legal, then THC should be too, though I maintain it'd be even more societally beneficial to prohibit both. [1]: https://www.recoveryanswers.org/research-post/alcohol-sales-excessive-drinking/ https://www.recoveryanswers.org/research-post/alcohol-sales-... [2]: https://www.bu.edu/sph/news/articles/2019/alcohol-taxes-only-cover-fraction-of-costs-of-excessive-drinking/ https://www.bu.edu/sph/news/articles/2019/alcohol-taxes-only... [3]: https://landmarkrecovery.com/the-cost-of-alcohol-use-disorder/#:~:text=The%20U.S.%20Surgeon%20General%20reported,about%20%24807%20per%20person%20annually https://landmarkrecovery.com/the-cost-of-alcohol-use-disorde....
- ls612 3y ago
  Alcohol is legal becuase we tried Prohibition and it was a disaster. America is a really frustrating country but we usually need to only learn our lesson once.
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mfrisbie 3y ago
I was on Cannabis Talk 101 recently to talk about this issue specifically: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwOmtBo8sBU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwOmtBo8sBU It is not hyperbolic to say that in many states, the cannabis industry is drowning. Far too much regulation, far too many taxes, and no access to capital yields an environment for cannabis SMBs that is effectively impossible to thrive in. The largest multi-state operators are the only businesses that are positioned to survive this downturn. Contrast this with federal agricultural policy for the past 100 years, in which entire agencies are dedicated to ensuring the health of American agriculture through loans, subsidies, and economic policy. Even though cannabis is the 6th largest cash crop in the US - roughly the same size as cotton, and larger than rice or potatoes, it is being actively crushed underfoot. Federal legalization is not close, and SAFE banking is not close. The industry as a whole is sliding into an enduring period of stagnation, and legislators are far too slow to act. For people who have been closely following the industry, all of this is completely unsurprising.
- vorpalhex 3y ago
  You can't really eat cannabis can you? It's much more like alcohol and other vices. It's not clear that the government should be terribly interested in helping cannabis. We can see why we want a regular food supply (and yes, that includes for animals) but it doesn't seem to be a government interest to make sure everyone can get high.
  - mfrisbie 3y ago
    Up until very recently there was plenty of federal support for tobacco farmers, and you can't eat that either. If states are going to legalize and tax, then they're obligated to treat these businesses as legitimate - especially with respect to social equity programs that give priority to minority license applicants. If you're sending these licensees into a meat grinder, that's not social equity.
    - vorpalhex 3y ago
      They were insurance subsidies that were stopped a decade ago. Just because New York runs an unconstitutional licensing scheme doesn't require the federal government to do anything. New York can bail out the people they gave a raw deal to.
mensetmanusman 3y ago
For reference it is about $20B for cigarettes. The more smoking, the more healthcare costs related to lungs etc. so it is good to have tax revenue to support the societal impact. People will disagree with how much people should be allowed to harm themselves when society picks up the mess. Our compromise is taxes :)
- _whiteCaps_ 3y ago
  Not all cannabis is smoked. There's more shelf space devoted to edibles and oils in the dispensaries around here.
  - mensetmanusman 3y ago
    Any thoughts on percentages? Last year smoking marijuana surpassed smoking cigarettes: https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addiction/news/20220831/more-americans-smoke-pot-than-cigarettes-poll-finds#:~:text=Aug.,11%25%20saying%20they%20smoke%20cigarettes https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addiction/news/20220831/....
intrasight 3y ago
Anyone else find the the whole topic as presented by the likes of greenmarketreport.com just disheartening? I partake infrequently - like twice a year. It's a special, spiritual thing for me. Imagine if a for-profit company could tell you when you could go to church and how much it would cost? This is what's happened with business interest controlling the regulatory environment. Imagine if parsley, basil, and thyme were controlled by commercial interests and regulator regimes.
Lolaccount 3y ago
In other news, first time farming across the USA has exploded ...
nosmokewhereiam 3y ago
Any solutions for organic KNF / JADAM hybrid growers to pass the new microbial / mold / mildew / fungal testing requirements that just tightened? In OR, the rules went from "who can produce the cheapest?" (Regenerative soil.) to "who can do clean room hydroponics with money gained from operating dispensaries" overnight. The entire organic movement is struggling to find a solution since our entire premise is to cultivate good "fauna" and not allow the bad stuff to gain large colony size. We cull weak plants, introduce predatory insects, utilize myco to innoculate soil and overall avoid the headaches general to monocropping. These are Arxiv-reading plant hackers, struggling with a sudden change, and it's chemicals all the way down... I've worked throughout the industry since legal, retail, production, field sampling / analytical lab tech, etoh extraction, and gMP manuf. / distro. I've seen a lot of solutions, and the industry has overcome a lot on the legal side. But I'd like to speak for all Oregonians in stating that if we don't have safety testing that matches what's really possible, producers will route around the problem by shopping labs for those who will assure greater possibility of passing these now much more strict myco/microbial testing. They did it with potency... Any thoughts for solutions that are more immediate and actionable, like how we can organically pass testing than gaming the test itself? I've watched it personally affect solid facilities and programs, tens of millions in losses during a razor thin market. People get desperate and do weird unsafe things to product, like spray vinegar, peroxide, physan, late-flower synth treatments, antifungals for ornamentals (think pgrs are bad?), and I'm sure worse. Any simple treatments techniques or procedure advice is very humbly appreciated. I'll pass it on to the communities it affects.
emrah 3y ago
I don't know what kind of net positive legalizing this shit provides to society but the fact that I have to smell it everywhere I go is a net negative for me. Can't they make a better smelling or no-smell option? I hear the stink is due to the low quality ingredients
samstave 3y ago
I helped build out, then worked at a cannabis extraction facility... I worked with MANY growers from mendo, and had to work out the tax implications from plant to extraction - which gets really weird when a Co-OP of growers each brought in their harvest, to combine together so they could exrtract from their total combined batch - but each grower needed to know what their tax burdon was on the final product. That was a nightmare to figure out (at the time, we basically came out with ~$1.75 in taxes per gram of 99% pure oil) My friend, and immediate next door neighbor is the District Attorney (DA) to the DCC (department of cannibis control) we have talked about this a lot - and he knows what a shit-show the california tax code is on weed... So much so that many small growers had to sell, and some larger growers/extractors are also selling because they lost all margins. Dont even get me started on METRC but at the end of the day - this all boils down to big agra and big capital squeezing out all the small players through political lobbying and corrupt politicians, and large industry such as Constellation Brands (alcohol) making huge strides into the cannabis market. Constellation was coming in and trying to low ball small ops to sell their ops and licenses, and then paying off/lobbying politicians to make the process of getting your cultivation, distribution, etc licenses extremely hard for a typicla tradition weed farmer who has been growing for decades but now he has to follow big agra style red-tape he is not used to. Then, on top of that - when co-op growers would combine material for extraction, or pre-rolls - they still had to be tested AFTER the extraction and if the oil came back 'dirty' (had pesticides in it) the batch was useless and had to be sold on the BM (black market) at a much reduced price and these guys would lose all of their annual revenue in that one extraction -- I saw a guy get so infuriated, I wouldnt be surprised if he killed himself when he got home. It was a wild ride.

190 points by DocFeind 3y ago

eppp 3y ago

What category did the $15B get reallocated from though? Was it a net positive or negative change?

rgbrenner 3y ago
Pretty sure people used cannabis before it was legal… so it was reallocated from the cartels and local drug dealers.
- Brendinooo 3y ago
  Legalizing something doesn't make it more popular?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - HDThoreaun 3y ago
    Not necessarily. Cannabis was extremely easy to find and there are reasons that something being banned would make it more exciting and popular. It's also gotten more expensive in many of the legal states.
    - Taywee 3y ago
      Here in Colorado, I can get an ounce for under $50: https://cannabisdepotco.com/menu/pueblo?store_path=%2Fmenu%2Fmid-shelf-blue-phasma-70-oz-otd https://cannabisdepotco.com/menu/pueblo?store_path=%2Fmenu%2... That's what I used to pay for an eighth.
      - HDThoreaun 3y ago
        In Illinois an ounce costs a solid $300+ at the stores.
        Taywee 3y ago
        Might be taxed at a really high rate, or production might be low. Took Colorado a long time for the prices to really go down, and it still varies a ton from city to city.
  - becquerel 3y ago
    It can do. If weed was made legal here I would jump on it immediately; the only reason I don't currently is because it's too much of a hassle to find someone who sells it and I can trust. When I was in California with a friend they ordered some on an app and a guy pulled up in their parking lot twenty minutes later. That's legalisation bringing barriers to entry way down, which is a surefire way to increase popularity.
  - Taywee 3y ago
    More popular and significantly less expensive, usually.
- Mountain_Skies 3y ago
  Not sure if this is what the other poster was going for but increases in spending in one area often comes at the expense of another area. That can come in the form of the illegal drug industry losing revenue to the legal drug industry and the government getting a share, but it also can come in the form of other spending that would have taken place now not taking place as users of legalized drugs are spending their money on those products instead of spending on going out to eat as often, buying fewer video games, purchasing less alcohol, going on fewer trips, etc. Tax revenue from that spending that has been displaced into the legal drug industry should be subtracted out of the $15 billion if the point here is that legalization increased government revenue. Of course, that's going to be very difficult to calculate since those displacement activities are on the individual level.
lotsofpulp 3y ago
Given the widespread availability of cannabis prior to it being legally available for purchase, I would assume almost all of it is positive.
ericpauley 3y ago
Probably positive change in tax revenue, since cannibis is extremely tax-inefficient. (e.g., https://www.irs.gov/about-irs/providing-resources-to-help-cannabis-business-owners-successfully-navigate-unique-tax-responsibilities https://www.irs.gov/about-irs/providing-resources-to-help-ca...)
AndrewKemendo 3y ago
Totally anecdotal but I personally reallocated spending away from alcohol and nicotine after receiving my medical cannabis prescription and working with my therapists and doctors on monitoring. My life is so much healthier and better in every possible way and I directly attribute cannabis to being a major part of addressing severe trauma, PTSD, MDD, and anxiety (after 20 years of federal affiliation prevented it). Also, note that the recreational (and medical) market has enough options of tinctures, oils infusions etc... that it's trivial to avoid combustion smoking. I am unaware of any long term studies that show medical risks to consuming THC, CBN, CBD in a non-combustion way.
- OvidStavrica 3y ago
  https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/cognitive-effects-of-long-term-cannabis-use-in-midlife-202206142760 https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/cognitive-effects-of-lon... https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/972160 https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/972160 Hope this help.
  - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
    Helps what?

penjelly 3y ago

Soma vibes

Cthulhu_ 3y ago
Same can be said about alcohol, tobacco, opiate painkillers, flu medication and low energy entertainment though.
- Spivak 3y ago
  And non-opiate painkillers, anti-anxiety medications, antidepressants, stimulants. "What if people were happy and content with life but its actually bad" is such a puritan view of the world.
  - swexbe 3y ago
    If modern society is inherently alienating, then SSRI's & others are not an ideal long-term solution at a societal level. Not sure how believing that makes me a puritan.
- penjelly 3y ago
  im pro cannabis and i agree with your points. Just an observation
eternalban 3y ago
I wonder if the opioids crisis had a hand in changing the approach to pot, to provide a manageable alternative comfort drug.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  I am assuming the approach to cannabis was purely due to racism/classism so that authorities have something to nail minorities with, and as civil rights progresses, those laws are changed.
  - 3y ago

throwaway22032 3y ago

Meanwhile there are places banning tobacco. We're just swapping burning one herb for another. Personally I don't smoke but having tried both, nicotine is hands down better. It sharpens the mind, unlike cannabis which always just made me feel like I'd lowered my IQ. They're both obviously hilariously unhealthy.

Spivak 3y ago
This might be true but without question cannabis is the safer recreational drug. If you don't want government involved at all I can see the argument for both but if you have to choose one it's cannabis every time.
piyh 3y ago
Tobacco is highly addictive and carcinogenic. Marijuana doesn't cause physical withdrawals, and while certainly isn't good for your health, it does not cause lung cancer and emphysema anywhere close to the rates of tobacco.
- femiagbabiaka 3y ago
  Modern marijuana is highly addictive and does in fact cause physical withdrawals (digestive problems, lack of appetite) as well as mental health issues (mood swings, hypervivid dreams). The levels of THC in modern strains available at most dispensaries are entirely too high.
  - arcticbull 3y ago
    Do you have some studies on that? The studies I've seen put the number around 10% [2] and I'm not sure I'd call that "highly addictive." Alcohol is around 6.7% [1] [1] https://drugabusestatistics.org/alcohol-abuse-statistics/ https://drugabusestatistics.org/alcohol-abuse-statistics/ [2] https://www.uptodate.com/contents/cannabis-withdrawal?topicRef=7797&source=see_link https://www.uptodate.com/contents/cannabis-withdrawal?topicR...
    - 3y ago

intellectronica 3y ago

And how much does juvenile-use cannabis deliver in tax revenue? ;)

abofh 3y ago
Likely similar to as Juvenile-use alcohol use. Your snark is cute, but your reasoning flawed - people buy drugs (alcohol, tobacco, firearms, weed); If there's easier ways to get it that are taxed, those channels tend to get used.
- Spivak 3y ago
  > similar to as Juvenile-use alcohol use Which to put a fine point on it is 100% taxed because adults buy alcohol for kids via the same avenues as for themselves. Nobody brews their own beer specifically to sell to teenagers.
- intellectronica 3y ago
  No reasoning at all - I just found the title funny, since obviously it's only adult use that is counted.
itomato 3y ago
It’s an important question. This market is in some part responsible for the explosion in CBD strains and products. Think back to Charlottes Web and what a ripple it caused, arguably influential in the passage of hemp reform in the farm bill. I’d be curious to see data on use vs legalization and the demographics of tax revenue.

simonswords82 3y ago

Meanwhile the UK has got it's thumb up its ass and is happily maintaining a status quo of the worst of all worlds 1) The police are still supposed to arrest people who are caught with cannabis (It's a class B drug - in the same group as codeine, ketamine, and ‘spice’ - whatever the hell that is). In reality they typically let people off with a warning but it's still a drain on our already hamstrung police force 2) Drug dealers who sell weed tend not to declare and pay tax on their earnings. Depriving UK Gov of some seriously needed income per this article's headline. 3) Drug dealers tend to sell other drugs, usually harder drugs. Thus exposing people who want to get stoned to a plethora of other drugs that they might otherwise not have come in to contact with. 4) Those people who are hooked on weed (or any other non-prescribed drug) are criminals...and cannot seek help from anybody including their doctor. This keeps them trapped, and over a long enough period of time will do mental and potentially physical damage to them that our NHS will incur costs to fix. And when I say NHS, I mean the tax payers, and when I say tax payers - I mean me. All of that is to say - fuck UK drug policy. I remain hopeful that it will change though...

eimrine 3y ago
> fuck UK drug policy And UK policy on (potentially) crypted data.
column 3y ago
if you think that's the WORST of all worlds.. In Switzerland police might request a blood test to know if your weed is actually CBD (which is legal), and you have to cover the bill for the blood test REGARDLESS OF THE TEST RESULT.
- simonswords82 3y ago
  Wow that's nuts - I did not know that.
- whimsicalism 3y ago
  how would a blood test possibly prove this? "oh - this is CBD weed, but I did just get back from America where I was smoking a ton"

thrwawayzsd 3y ago

I wonder how much revenue is displaced. This isn't necessarily an increase in tax revenue. My personal anecdote is I've replaced social drinking with social cannabis use now that it's legal. It feels good and I don't have to worry about the hang over. The cost is fairly similar for a night of drinking or a few joints.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
peteradio 3y ago
> few joints Hope you're sharing Cheech.

ryanianian 3y ago

Hugged to death: https://web.archive.org/web/20230502143621/https://www.greenmarketreport.com/adult-use-cannabis-has-delivered-15-billion-in-tax-revenues/ https://web.archive.org/web/20230502143621/https://www.green... Better takeaway is actually: > For the first time in the U.S., adult-use cannabis tax revenue declined across legal states in 2022.

PragmaticPulp 3y ago
The decline is definitely more interesting than the headline. The headline number is also a cumulative total since legalization started. The annual tax revenue is around $4 billion: > According to a new report from the Marijuana Policy Project, cannabis sales tax generated a healthy $3.77 billion in 2022, but that was slightly below 2021’s tax revenue of $3.86 billion. The article doesn't speculate why revenues are declining. I wonder why. Maybe past high revenues were an artifact of people staying home during COVID? Or is it a result of decreasing prices? I'm not a consumer, so I don't really know what's going on in the market.
- givinguflac 3y ago
  The market is going through equalization with prices bottoming out over the next 6-12 months. There will be lots of smaller shops bought up by multi-state companies.
- throwaway0989 3y ago
  I know a number of people who are tired of high priced dispensaries and have started to grow or buy from friends again. Prices everywhere I've seen are really high, for hemp-derived products too.
- tmpz22 3y ago
  Anecdotally a lot of people over-used during COVID and have diminished the habit since. As another mentioned increasing costs in a questionable economy doesn't help either. I've personally experienced shrinkflation to the greatest extent of any consumer product in weed and weed accessories.
- 3y ago

eugenekolo 3y ago

*Has delivered. This is since 2014. What a strange title to mask the actual first line: " 2022 tax collection dipped from 2021."

nimbius 3y ago

I always had high hopes (pardon the pun) that cannabis decriminalization would look similar to homebrew beer culture and we might see a horticulture boom. Many states sadly only took steps to create a states monopoly on the distribution of this narcotic with no real reforms to criminalization of cultivation. Californias experiment with decriminalization was after five years revealed for its true intent: unchecked greed at the hand of a 70% tax rate. https://www.npr.org/2021/11/07/1053387426/5-years-after-california-legalized-weed-the-illicit-market-dominates https://www.npr.org/2021/11/07/1053387426/5-years-after-cali...

whimsicalism 3y ago
Where I grew up (DC), you are only allowed to cultivate & not allowed to buy/sell. Also, you definitely just pulled that 70% number out of your ass
Moneyyyyy 3y ago
In Germany it will be allowed to have three plants at home. And canabisclub who is doing the growing for/with you. This should allow for more grow culture.
- GordonS 3y ago
  > In Germany it will be allowed to have three plants at home. Isn't that only for personal use though (i.e. you can't sell it)?
- saiya-jin 3y ago
  I am so disappointed with the path Germany took. Its clear above all it poses no serious risk to general population, especially when compared to alcohol and tobacco. Yet they do this crappy in-between, which excludes most people (no, I dont want to have growing aparatus at home and tinker with setup, worry for vacations fire hazards etc), excludes completely access to more advanced and healthier forms (vapes are by far the best and healthiest way for me, dont force me to smoke stuff, I actually care about my health and state should appreciate that). The problem is, what Germany pushes for sets the tone in rest of EU, and they did set the bar very low. They could have been champions of personal freedom, but they decide to drag this, I guess to please (clueless) conservatives.

IMTDb 3y ago

$15B combined since legalisation started; and revenues are dipping. For reference; Alcohol generates roughly $10B per year (https://www.statista.com/statistics/248952/revenues-from-alcohol-tax-and-forecast-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/248952/revenues-from-alc...). Tobacco as well (https://www.statista.com/statistics/248964/revenues-from-tobacco-tax-and-forecast-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/248964/revenues-from-tob...) I was not able to find reputable sources for Cannabis; the numbers in the article are coming from "Marijuana Policy Project", which makes them highly suspicious since the stated goal of the organisation is: (form their own website): "The Marijuana Policy Project (MPP) is the number one organization in the U.S. dedicated to legalizing cannabis". So they would likely use any calculations methods that would paint cannabis in a good way.

arcticbull 3y ago
How are the savings from not wasting the time of the police, and not putting people in prison?
- beerpls 3y ago
  Probably not very high. I know a lot of people who sell hard drugs and get caught selling said drugs. They spend a night in jail, bail out and go on probation where they can time the ankle monitor to know exactly when they have to stop drinking at parties I’ve seen people drive kilos of coke across the country for years without being caught or having any worry I’m all for weed but the idea that we’re locking people up in prisons for smoking a joint is very misguided compared to what the legal system really behaves like
  - arcticbull 3y ago
    Any arrest or criminal record also reduces your future earning potential significantly and hence your tax value to the state. In some studies it can be mid-20%-ish. Drug convictions or even arrests make you ineligible to enter many other countries, make it very difficult to travel, and make it difficult to get a job. You don't have to end up in prison to waste the state's money and to materially impact your life and productivity.

itomato 3y ago

I will never drink alcohol again. I don’t need to or want to. That has to scare somebody.

Spivak 3y ago
As compared to cannabis? I completely agree. Everyone's mileage may vary but my reaction to it is the same "unsober" feeling from alcohol but without the sick or hangover. I've never laughed so hard as when I smoke which is something I don't get from alcohol.
- lpa22 3y ago
  I completely agree. Weed has replaced almost my entire alcohol consumption which was a lot. The “unsober” feeling is key here
criddell 3y ago
I can't imagine I would ever stop. I don't drink very much (maybe 1 drink a week) but what I do have I really enjoy. I also enjoy cooking with it. Deglazing a pan with some red wine after you seared a big piece of beef is a great way to start a sauce.

rr808 3y ago

For 2022 it was $3.8 Billion or $11 per person, which is a lot higher than I expected. https://www.mpp.org/issues/legalization/cannabis-tax-revenue-states-regulate-cannabis-adult-use/ https://www.mpp.org/issues/legalization/cannabis-tax-revenue...

sam_goody 3y ago

What is the scope of Cannabis related costs (such as gov covered rehab, disability from those that did dangerous stuff on drugs, O.D.'s or took something contaminated, non employment from those that cannot hold a job, what amount of social cannabis is a gateway to heavier stuff, etc.) I know that there are many factors here - legal vs illegal (where any tax is better than no tax) clean vs dirty (where I presume the higher the legality the more likely it is safe), the social advantages and alternatives (where people who have an active social life are more productive), etc.

lotsofpulp 3y ago
I imagine inconsequential compared to societal costs of refined sugar, saturated fats, and alcohol.
- steve76 3y ago
  [dead]
whalesalad 3y ago
> disability from those that did dangerous stuff on drugs, O.D.'s or took something contaminated, non employment from those that cannot hold a job, what amount of social cannabis is a gateway to heavier stuff, etc. Cannabis is really not what you think it is.
- sam_goody 3y ago
  Perhaps, I do not take any recreational drugs, so I might have the wrong mental image. But I do work with teenagers, and have heard from many that blame their lack of class or job stability on marijuana, who complain that they have lost years of their life in a cloud, or that have done stupid stuff because they were either high, or bec. they were stressed out when not high. I know a kid who is a lost cause, and his friends claim he took contaminated drugs; are they wrong? I cannot imagine that it isn't a gateway - its not catchy like LSD, but someone who makes out with friends is surely more likely to try LSD, Meth or Coke, no?! Would love to hear more - I know lots of people who encourage me to try a joint or two! BTW, I saw once a similar comparison of cigarette taxes vs related costs. Surprisingly worthy comparison.

easytiger 3y ago

That would tobacco's tax revenues a positive thing too.

theK 3y ago

Awesome news! But I think reports that only focus on tax income are underselling the results of cannabis legalization policy slightly. What I would be much more interested in would be the whole picture, ie. added to the tax income we should also be able to see the taxpayer money saved by relieving the police, corrective and judicial systems of cannabis related processes.

roschdal 3y ago

I knew it! Americans have been doped for a long time.

nashashmi 3y ago

Getting money from drugs is still getting money from drugs. We also get money from casinos. No good things come from this. And for those who believe that a annual decline in drug sales supports the idea of legalizing it, don't you think these companies will act with the most sinister of intentions like so many before them have acted? Like Juul, big tobacco, beer, fentanyl, and casinos? The profit is great. The evil is greater. (Quran 2:19)

wootland 3y ago
> No good things come from this. Much of the art/music created in the past 100 years was done under the influence of marijuana. In addition to extremely helpful therapeutic benefits (mainly around improving sleep, diet and lowering stress). You can't make the claim that nothing good comes from marijuana. In fact, I think it would be very difficult to claim that it has a net negative effect given that you can't OD on it and people that use it don't tend to start fights, kill people, rob... like they do with alcohol and other various drugs.
- nashashmi 3y ago
  I don't know how you can claim the art and music derived under influence as positive benefits. Alcohol has provided similar "therapeutics" to overworked people. But in retrospect, disconnecting the brain to stressors is difficult to argue as a positive effect. Stressors cause the body to adjust for tasks. Likewise, inducing hallucinations and mental states of poor mobility yet calling it therapy is like removing a few cells from the brian and saying the effects are good because the existing problems are worse. Arguments like alcohol is worse because of A,B,C and therefore Marijuana is better, is like saying "the other guy is much worse than me and therefore I am OK." Or "America is better than other countries so we have nothing to improve." You can't use the lack of certain negatives as justifications. It still has other negatives that the former does not have.
  - wootland 3y ago
    > I don't know how you can claim the art and music derived under influence as positive benefits. For the millions (billions?) of people who have enjoyed this art, I'd say it's pretty positive. FWIW I also think alcohol should remain legal and would literally never give up a good after-work beer. People are capable of having positive relationships with alcohol.

cronix 3y ago

It's been legal recreationally in Oregon for a number of years now, and medically legal for 10 or so years before that. Basically the same story...record tax receipts at first, but slipping the last few years[1]. There have also been a lot of stories in the couple of years or so regarding massive cartel growing operations[1] blending in with the legal grows, flooding the market with cheaper cannabis. These are usually staffed by people who are the victims of human trafficking[2] working off their "debt." A lot of people are going back to black market cannabis because there are no taxes, so it's about 20% cheaper right off the top. [1] https://www.bizjournals.com/portland/news/2022/09/06/oregon-cannabis-tax-revenue-falls.html https://www.bizjournals.com/portland/news/2022/09/06/oregon-... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/12/oregon-marijuana-illegal-farms-environment https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/12/oregon-marij... [3] https://abcnews.go.com/US/narco-slaves-migrant-workers-face-abuse-oregons-cartel/story?id=95069523 https://abcnews.go.com/US/narco-slaves-migrant-workers-face-...

eschulz 3y ago
I'm concerned legal cannabis with very high tax rates has created an ideal situation for criminal cartels. A criminal group can utilize legal businesses for growing expertise, cleaning money, etc. Meanwhile, the criminals may be more than happy to use extreme violence and forced labor to get their way. I've seen things online about illegal grow operations in CA with a surprisingly bad impact on the environment since apparently the individuals managing these rural greenhouses don't care about litter or pollution, just like they probably don't care about their laborers. The law has given their mules protection to move products, and their customers a financial incentive to go with the risky illegal pot.

sneak 3y ago

Where I am from, this means that white and white adjacent people are now making revenues that formerly went to black people.

maerF0x0 3y ago

I had an debate with a friend's wife a while back (these always go over so well). That there's a bothersome logical inconsistency of having Alcohol XOR THC products (of many kinds). ie Either both should be legal, or neither. As far as I can tell keeping alcohol legalized is simply having the moderate 59%[1] of drinkers use tyranny of the majority to enforce their freedom at deep detriment to both the hazardous/heavy drinkers (but also to everyone because the negative effects of drinking distribute to moderate/non-drinkers. I presume that this is also heavily lobbied by Alcohol industry in the US because more than 2/3rds of revenue come from heavy drinkers. And grabbing the first headline that matches my theory it seems like tax revenue doesnt cover the societal costs [2] Related to the topic at hand it seems the societal costs of alcohol abuse is greater than drug use[3] (all drugs combine). So again, if Alcohol is Legal, then THC should be too, though I maintain it'd be even more societally beneficial to prohibit both. [1]: https://www.recoveryanswers.org/research-post/alcohol-sales-excessive-drinking/ https://www.recoveryanswers.org/research-post/alcohol-sales-... [2]: https://www.bu.edu/sph/news/articles/2019/alcohol-taxes-only-cover-fraction-of-costs-of-excessive-drinking/ https://www.bu.edu/sph/news/articles/2019/alcohol-taxes-only... [3]: https://landmarkrecovery.com/the-cost-of-alcohol-use-disorder/#:~:text=The%20U.S.%20Surgeon%20General%20reported,about%20%24807%20per%20person%20annually https://landmarkrecovery.com/the-cost-of-alcohol-use-disorde....

ls612 3y ago
Alcohol is legal becuase we tried Prohibition and it was a disaster. America is a really frustrating country but we usually need to only learn our lesson once.

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mfrisbie 3y ago

I was on Cannabis Talk 101 recently to talk about this issue specifically: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwOmtBo8sBU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwOmtBo8sBU It is not hyperbolic to say that in many states, the cannabis industry is drowning. Far too much regulation, far too many taxes, and no access to capital yields an environment for cannabis SMBs that is effectively impossible to thrive in. The largest multi-state operators are the only businesses that are positioned to survive this downturn. Contrast this with federal agricultural policy for the past 100 years, in which entire agencies are dedicated to ensuring the health of American agriculture through loans, subsidies, and economic policy. Even though cannabis is the 6th largest cash crop in the US - roughly the same size as cotton, and larger than rice or potatoes, it is being actively crushed underfoot. Federal legalization is not close, and SAFE banking is not close. The industry as a whole is sliding into an enduring period of stagnation, and legislators are far too slow to act. For people who have been closely following the industry, all of this is completely unsurprising.

vorpalhex 3y ago
You can't really eat cannabis can you? It's much more like alcohol and other vices. It's not clear that the government should be terribly interested in helping cannabis. We can see why we want a regular food supply (and yes, that includes for animals) but it doesn't seem to be a government interest to make sure everyone can get high.
- mfrisbie 3y ago
  Up until very recently there was plenty of federal support for tobacco farmers, and you can't eat that either. If states are going to legalize and tax, then they're obligated to treat these businesses as legitimate - especially with respect to social equity programs that give priority to minority license applicants. If you're sending these licensees into a meat grinder, that's not social equity.
  - vorpalhex 3y ago
    They were insurance subsidies that were stopped a decade ago. Just because New York runs an unconstitutional licensing scheme doesn't require the federal government to do anything. New York can bail out the people they gave a raw deal to.

mensetmanusman 3y ago

For reference it is about $20B for cigarettes. The more smoking, the more healthcare costs related to lungs etc. so it is good to have tax revenue to support the societal impact. People will disagree with how much people should be allowed to harm themselves when society picks up the mess. Our compromise is taxes :)

_whiteCaps_ 3y ago
Not all cannabis is smoked. There's more shelf space devoted to edibles and oils in the dispensaries around here.
- mensetmanusman 3y ago
  Any thoughts on percentages? Last year smoking marijuana surpassed smoking cigarettes: https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addiction/news/20220831/more-americans-smoke-pot-than-cigarettes-poll-finds#:~:text=Aug.,11%25%20saying%20they%20smoke%20cigarettes https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addiction/news/20220831/....

intrasight 3y ago

Anyone else find the the whole topic as presented by the likes of greenmarketreport.com just disheartening? I partake infrequently - like twice a year. It's a special, spiritual thing for me. Imagine if a for-profit company could tell you when you could go to church and how much it would cost? This is what's happened with business interest controlling the regulatory environment. Imagine if parsley, basil, and thyme were controlled by commercial interests and regulator regimes.

Lolaccount 3y ago

In other news, first time farming across the USA has exploded ...

nosmokewhereiam 3y ago

Any solutions for organic KNF / JADAM hybrid growers to pass the new microbial / mold / mildew / fungal testing requirements that just tightened? In OR, the rules went from "who can produce the cheapest?" (Regenerative soil.) to "who can do clean room hydroponics with money gained from operating dispensaries" overnight. The entire organic movement is struggling to find a solution since our entire premise is to cultivate good "fauna" and not allow the bad stuff to gain large colony size. We cull weak plants, introduce predatory insects, utilize myco to innoculate soil and overall avoid the headaches general to monocropping. These are Arxiv-reading plant hackers, struggling with a sudden change, and it's chemicals all the way down... I've worked throughout the industry since legal, retail, production, field sampling / analytical lab tech, etoh extraction, and gMP manuf. / distro. I've seen a lot of solutions, and the industry has overcome a lot on the legal side. But I'd like to speak for all Oregonians in stating that if we don't have safety testing that matches what's really possible, producers will route around the problem by shopping labs for those who will assure greater possibility of passing these now much more strict myco/microbial testing. They did it with potency... Any thoughts for solutions that are more immediate and actionable, like how we can organically pass testing than gaming the test itself? I've watched it personally affect solid facilities and programs, tens of millions in losses during a razor thin market. People get desperate and do weird unsafe things to product, like spray vinegar, peroxide, physan, late-flower synth treatments, antifungals for ornamentals (think pgrs are bad?), and I'm sure worse. Any simple treatments techniques or procedure advice is very humbly appreciated. I'll pass it on to the communities it affects.

emrah 3y ago

I don't know what kind of net positive legalizing this shit provides to society but the fact that I have to smell it everywhere I go is a net negative for me. Can't they make a better smelling or no-smell option? I hear the stink is due to the low quality ingredients

samstave 3y ago

I helped build out, then worked at a cannabis extraction facility... I worked with MANY growers from mendo, and had to work out the tax implications from plant to extraction - which gets really weird when a Co-OP of growers each brought in their harvest, to combine together so they could exrtract from their total combined batch - but each grower needed to know what their tax burdon was on the final product. That was a nightmare to figure out (at the time, we basically came out with ~$1.75 in taxes per gram of 99% pure oil) My friend, and immediate next door neighbor is the District Attorney (DA) to the DCC (department of cannibis control) we have talked about this a lot - and he knows what a shit-show the california tax code is on weed... So much so that many small growers had to sell, and some larger growers/extractors are also selling because they lost all margins. Dont even get me started on METRC but at the end of the day - this all boils down to big agra and big capital squeezing out all the small players through political lobbying and corrupt politicians, and large industry such as Constellation Brands (alcohol) making huge strides into the cannabis market. Constellation was coming in and trying to low ball small ops to sell their ops and licenses, and then paying off/lobbying politicians to make the process of getting your cultivation, distribution, etc licenses extremely hard for a typicla tradition weed farmer who has been growing for decades but now he has to follow big agra style red-tape he is not used to. Then, on top of that - when co-op growers would combine material for extraction, or pre-rolls - they still had to be tested AFTER the extraction and if the oil came back 'dirty' (had pesticides in it) the batch was useless and had to be sold on the BM (black market) at a much reduced price and these guys would lose all of their annual revenue in that one extraction -- I saw a guy get so infuriated, I wouldnt be surprised if he killed himself when he got home. It was a wild ride.