5 ms·

Parenting tech opens the door to state surveillance

114 points by samclemens 3y ago

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
kstenerud 3y ago
I just don't get why you'd even want to sleep separately from your young child. They cry because they crave physical closeness, physical contact, the rhythm of their parents breathing, just like we've done for millions of years. All you do in denying that is create a lasting distance, nightmares, and worry for these monitoring companies to feed upon.
- thomasahle 3y ago
  This seems to be a pretty hot debate these days: https://theconversation.com/is-there-such-a-thing-as-too-old-to-co-sleep-with-your-child-188145 https://theconversation.com/is-there-such-a-thing-as-too-old...
  - triyambakam 3y ago
    You're being very uncharitable. It's wildly different to cosleep with a new born than a near teen that the article mentions. And the rest of the article mostly reviews the benefits of cosleeping, so I don't see your point.
- triyambakam 3y ago
  I feel sad hearing about parents who practice the "cry it out" method.
  - Erik816 3y ago
    I feel sad hearing about parents who can't stand to hear their child cry for a few a few minutes, a few nights in a row, and instead have children who take years to learn to properly sleep, causing sleep deprivation for the entire family.
    - A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
      It is a hard one to get right. I learned rather fast that there are a variety of cries ranging from 'look at me' to 'I am hurt' each with own modulation, pitch and sense of urgency. In a practical sense, I agree with you. Unless there is a clear cause for distress ( and there well may be ), I usually just wait. It is actually quite amazing how well kids pick up on our willingness to react to their cries. Naturally, the instant switch from cry to laugh upon distraction was a big eye opener for me.
    - triyambakam 3y ago
      The data does not support your misunderstanding at all.
- dalyons 3y ago
  And you feel justified in espousing this harsh judgement of others parenting choices based on what evidence? What seems obvious to you isn’t for others, and parenting threads are typically just trading anecdotes and judgement without data.
  - RobinL 3y ago
    Here's a decent article summarising the state of th evidence evidence. (I'm not making any claims about what the evidence says, I just found it interesting) https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220322-how-sleep-training-affects-babies https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220322-how-sleep-traini...
    - dalyons 3y ago
      Yeah I read that last time there was a big thread about this on HN. It’s all pretty inconclusive. My clearest takeaways from that were that doing sleep training too early is not recommended, and that there was no observed long term difference in kids either way. And that we shouldn’t judge folk who need or want to try such things because they’re working parents, depressed, or have other family problems caused by lack of sleep.
    - irjustin 3y ago
      > Results One hundred eight intervention and 107 control families provided six-week follow-up information with complete actigraphy data for 96 in each group: 96.9 % of intervention and 97.9 % of control infants had an average of 2 or more nightly wakes, a risk difference of −0.2 % (95 % CI: −1.32, 0.91). 4 % of intervention and 14 % of control infants had parent-assessed severe sleep problems: relative risk 0.3, a risk difference of −10 % (CI: 0.11, 0.84-16.8 to −2.2). Relative to controls, intervention parents reported improved baseline-adjusted parental depression (CI: −3.7 to −0.4), fatigue (CI: −5.74 to −1.68), sleep quality (CI: −1.5 to −0.2), and sleep cognitions: doubts (CI: −2.0 to −0.6), feeding (CI: − 2.1 to - 0.7), anger (CI: − 1.8 to - 0.4) and setting limits (CI: −3.5 to −1.5). > Conclusions The intervention improved caregivers' assessments of infant sleep problem severity and parental depression, fatigue, sleep, and sleep cognitions compared with controls. This is largely true for myself - sleep training is for the parents to get some semblance of their lives back. The first 3 months of my daughter's life - i'd never been more tired in my life.
- saagarjha 3y ago
  I mean they cry for all sorts of reasons.
  - Cthulhu_ 3y ago
    Even for no reason at all. (disclaimer: I am a former child)
    - brokenmachine 3y ago
      There's always a reason to cry. (source: human)
- melvinmelih 3y ago
  Just today we were being lectured by our pediatrician that our two year old needs to sleep in her own bed, in her own room. When we asked why, she went on a tangent that parents also need their own sleep and that she did it with her own kids when they were a few months old, and that she couldn't imagine getting much sleep with her kids etc etc. Basically, she didn't have any scientific arguments why it was better for her to sleep separately, other than "that's how things always have been done" and projecting her own preferences onto us.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
    FWIW, doctors have opinions as well. We are all only humans after all. Naturally, we have higher standards for well compensated professionals and we do expect more than platitudes from such professionals. All that said, your experience does bring up an interesting point though. At the end of the day, you are the parent. As it relates to the care for your kid, you outrank them ( with some exceptions, but those usually apply for a very good reason ). They are there to help you make a good decision, but you are not bound by their words. Unfortunately, like in every profession, they can be 'bad' doctors or ones that don't want to learn new things or both. Not to search very far, the sugar debate is now mainstream and doctors I talked to recently acknowledged that a lot of that word of mouth 'there is too much sugar in everything' has a point to it. In their defense, there is a lot of research that supports it now, but how long did it take to make it happen? << today we were being lectured by our pediatrician I hear you. It is an aggravating experience and unless there is a good reason to keep that doctor, I would consider making a change. The relationship should not be an unpleasant one. In my neck of the woods, ours recommended covid shot for our kid on the basis that 'everyone does it'. Before I had a chance to go on a rant, my wife simply said no. There was some back and forth, but no remained a no. I could offer more stories, but I don't really want anyone to extrapolate to some general wisdom. Each case is different and every one of us have to weigh those risks.
  - epolanski 3y ago
    There is scientific literature confirming that around 12/18 months child indeed should start sleeping separately from their parents. Actually lots of literature point to much earlier. Children need to develop their self soothing abilities as well as awareness that parents aren't always there already at this crucial age. She wasn't projecting her preferences, it's dangerous to raise over protected children, separation anxiety in infants is normal but the response is to gradually increase the amount of separation week after week. 2 years old sleeping with child might actually be dangerous and I'm surprised hn would upvote a random netizen ignoring a professional's suggestion, only infants should sleep with parents. [1] https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article-abstract/140/1/e20170122/37986/Mother-Infant-Room-Sharing-and-Sleep-Outcomes-in?redirectedFrom=fulltext https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article-abstract/140... [2]https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1087079210001322 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S10870...
- A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
  I know how we approached it and it was a compromise as me and my spouse come from different worlds culturally. I personally think a lot has to do with 'my cousin/friend/fb friend did x and recommended it'. For a very new parent, it is not unreasonable to seek advice of their peers. In our case compromise was: infant slept with us for a good half of their first year, but we slowly transitioned to a separate room with audio only radio ( no internet connection app craziness ). All that said, we are already an outlier in our social circle that includes parents and about the only ones that have any concern about normalizing surveillance at such a young age ( and even that is mostly based on my preferences -- my SO takes my concerns into account ).
  - kstenerud 3y ago
    I had a child in Japan, and so we did it the Japanese way: The child sleeps with the parents until the child eventually decides otherwise.
- epolanski 3y ago
  Unless you are an expert in child care please don't post factually wrong things. If you are, post scientific articles.
  - triyambakam 3y ago
    You must have a tough time here on the internet.
- jgilias 3y ago
  How many children do you have? From people I know it’s only single-child parents who co-sleep. Reason being, when the next child enters the picture, it’s pretty harsh on the toddler when there’s constant waking up, so having them sleep separately becomes the obviously right thing to do to not mess with their sleep too much. Later on it becomes a question of fairness. ‘Why does X get to sleep with you, but not me?’ One solution would be for everyone to sleep together, but beds have their limits, and I don’t actually know anyone who’d co-sleep with more than one child.
  - wiredfool 3y ago
    3. Definitely did co-sleeping with 2 at a time early on.
- lucumo 3y ago
  Okay, I'll bite. Your just-so statements shouldn't convince anybody of anything, but I'll provide a few points to think about anyway. > I just don't get why you'd even want to sleep separately from your young child. People have different life experiences. It really shouldn't be the first time you hear about people doing things differently than you and still getting similar results. > They cry because they crave physical closeness, physical contact, Yes. They also cry because they're hungry, because their diaper is full and when they are tired. When our kids were babies there were even times they cried because they needed to be left alone. They were overstimulated and we needed to stop trying to help them. > the rhythm of their parents breathing, Can't say I've noticed that one. Seems hard to isolate though. By the time they hear you breathing, they'll feel body heat, see your face and are usually also in your arms and getting some interaction. Not sure how you have determined that it was the breathing that was doing the trick... > just like we've done for millions of years. I can't tell if this is the fallacy of appeal to tradition, the fallacy of appeal to nature, or an equally silly "appeal to evolution". Evolution didn't stop at some magical point in the past. There's no reason why what held back then must still hold now. Nor is longevity of a trait proof of an evolutionary advantage. It just has to not be a disadvantage to stick around. > All you do in denying that is create a lasting distance, nightmares, Funny how neither that "lasting distance" nor the nightmares panned out for our kids, who have slept their entire lives in their own room. Can't say I've noticed those things in many other kids either, which is strange since private rooms are very much the norm around here.
thombles 3y ago
I intentionally picked a DECT audio-only monitor on a shelf of high-tech gizmos. Secure, local, doesn't reward the monkey-brain need to "just check in" like video would, and works without configuration in a different building. Would do it again for sure.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
amelius 3y ago
I'm already being fully parented by Apple, so what difference is more parenting tech going to make?
- Lapsa 3y ago
  why did you give up?
  - amelius 3y ago
    Because it's like beating a dead horse.
  - npteljes 3y ago
    I think people deserve better than constantly fighting against their systems. It's belittling, invalidating, insulting. I found that it's healthier instead of this fighting, I come out better to try to accommodate ("When in Rome, do as the Romans do"), or ditch the system/relationship altogether. Fighting against things like Windows telemetry is just yelling at clouds, a losing, uphill battle against something that's out of our control anyways. Very similar to trying to change a toxic person in a relationship.
    - amelius 3y ago
      > Very similar to trying to change a toxic person in a relationship. This is a good comparison, except in the case of the duopoly you have only two people to choose from.
- robocat 3y ago
  My parents give me more freedom. Apple feels more like a sub-dom relationship - submitting to the nanny. iDevices are constantly correcting me, or preventing me from doing what I want, but I just can’t resist the secure feeling.
  - endisneigh 3y ago
    buy android and be free. https://store.google.com/config/pixel_7_pro?selections=eyJkOCI6ImNHbDRaV3hmTjE5d2NtOD0ifQ%3D%3D https://store.google.com/config/pixel_7_pro?selections=eyJkO...
threatofrain 3y ago
> The convergence of parental anxiety and tech access can extend surveillant care into a total system, reaching past the baby and any employee in the home or daycare center to the street beyond. Increasingly, technophilic and/or anxious families are turning to websites like Nextdoor and smart home systems like Alexa, Google Home, Nest Cams, and Ring, not only to help with domestic management but to reinforce the barrier between the outside and the inside, keeping the outside out. These technologies slip from self-surveillance (when should I reorder my groceries?) to familial surveillance (what is my child watching?) to surveilling anyone who might come into contact with one’s children. The battle for the hearts of parents is already concluded. Now Amazon and such just need to unveil consumer tech which is good enough. The idea that you can have a camera on your front door to see everyone is appealing to way too many people.
- HowardStark 3y ago
  Is there a way to walk it all back? It’s an issue that worries me to almost no end. Idealistically, I might say education could solve it, except that I see this huge lapse of empathy on the subject of surveillance that makes the education impractical past a point.
  - Clubber 3y ago
    No, I don't see a way without legislation, and I don't see that happening without a significant event. Having said that, ring doorbells are useful in finding people who try to break into homes and commit other crimes. Aiden Fucci was convicted with help of a Ring camera. I'm sure his victim's parents are grateful. https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/crime/2023/03/23/aiden-fucci-florida-murder-killing-tristyn-bailey/70040639007/ https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/crime/2023/03/23/aid...
- engeljohnb 3y ago
  > The idea that you can have a camera on your front door to see everyone is appealing to way too many people. That kind of thinking was easy for me back when I was living in a safe area. Now I've had to move to a sketchy neighborhood, and if "surveillance" helps to keep my girlfriend from being r----, that's an acceptable tradeoff for me at this time.
derelicta 3y ago
24/7 surveillance of individuals is just becoming culturally accepted. A terrible example, but a real one, is my grandma: she lives alone back in Colombia, and due to the fact most of her family is abroad, her grandchildren decided to pay a company to install cameras in every room of the house (except the bathroom) as to make sure we can all monitor her, "just in case". My attempts at convincing them a simple fall detection bracelet was sufficient were in vain, and my whole family doesn't see the issue, for it is "only for her own safety".
- rightbyte 3y ago
  You are very correct. The slippery bathroom is also the place you want an alarm system ...
  - namelessoracle 3y ago
    24/7 surveillance except where/when you need it to the most sums up so much of our world today.
- auggierose 3y ago
  I hope she is aware of this surveillance and agreed to it?
  - sobkas 3y ago
    > I hope she is aware of this surveillance and agreed to it? Or how easy this footage could be sold or leaked?
- lynx23 3y ago
  This is only really a problem if she was patronized and/or coerced into this. The line is sometimes hard to draw, but this is where the problem begins.
- andrepd 3y ago
  I always thought that the compromise, vis a vis CCTV surveillance of public places, was to have the camera record to an encrypted storage that is only unlocked with a judicial warrant, just like a regular physical search needs a warrant. You get the security of knowing criminals have their actions recorded, but you avoid the privacy catastrophe of being recorded 24/7 no matter where you go.
nahnahg 3y ago
[dead]

114 points by samclemens 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

I just don't get why you'd even want to sleep separately from your young child. They cry because they crave physical closeness, physical contact, the rhythm of their parents breathing, just like we've done for millions of years. All you do in denying that is create a lasting distance, nightmares, and worry for these monitoring companies to feed upon.

thomasahle 3y ago
This seems to be a pretty hot debate these days: https://theconversation.com/is-there-such-a-thing-as-too-old-to-co-sleep-with-your-child-188145 https://theconversation.com/is-there-such-a-thing-as-too-old...
- triyambakam 3y ago
  You're being very uncharitable. It's wildly different to cosleep with a new born than a near teen that the article mentions. And the rest of the article mostly reviews the benefits of cosleeping, so I don't see your point.
triyambakam 3y ago
I feel sad hearing about parents who practice the "cry it out" method.
- Erik816 3y ago
  I feel sad hearing about parents who can't stand to hear their child cry for a few a few minutes, a few nights in a row, and instead have children who take years to learn to properly sleep, causing sleep deprivation for the entire family.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
    It is a hard one to get right. I learned rather fast that there are a variety of cries ranging from 'look at me' to 'I am hurt' each with own modulation, pitch and sense of urgency. In a practical sense, I agree with you. Unless there is a clear cause for distress ( and there well may be ), I usually just wait. It is actually quite amazing how well kids pick up on our willingness to react to their cries. Naturally, the instant switch from cry to laugh upon distraction was a big eye opener for me.
  - triyambakam 3y ago
    The data does not support your misunderstanding at all.
dalyons 3y ago
And you feel justified in espousing this harsh judgement of others parenting choices based on what evidence? What seems obvious to you isn’t for others, and parenting threads are typically just trading anecdotes and judgement without data.
- RobinL 3y ago
  Here's a decent article summarising the state of th evidence evidence. (I'm not making any claims about what the evidence says, I just found it interesting) https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220322-how-sleep-training-affects-babies https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220322-how-sleep-traini...
  - dalyons 3y ago
    Yeah I read that last time there was a big thread about this on HN. It’s all pretty inconclusive. My clearest takeaways from that were that doing sleep training too early is not recommended, and that there was no observed long term difference in kids either way. And that we shouldn’t judge folk who need or want to try such things because they’re working parents, depressed, or have other family problems caused by lack of sleep.
  - irjustin 3y ago
    > Results One hundred eight intervention and 107 control families provided six-week follow-up information with complete actigraphy data for 96 in each group: 96.9 % of intervention and 97.9 % of control infants had an average of 2 or more nightly wakes, a risk difference of −0.2 % (95 % CI: −1.32, 0.91). 4 % of intervention and 14 % of control infants had parent-assessed severe sleep problems: relative risk 0.3, a risk difference of −10 % (CI: 0.11, 0.84-16.8 to −2.2). Relative to controls, intervention parents reported improved baseline-adjusted parental depression (CI: −3.7 to −0.4), fatigue (CI: −5.74 to −1.68), sleep quality (CI: −1.5 to −0.2), and sleep cognitions: doubts (CI: −2.0 to −0.6), feeding (CI: − 2.1 to - 0.7), anger (CI: − 1.8 to - 0.4) and setting limits (CI: −3.5 to −1.5). > Conclusions The intervention improved caregivers' assessments of infant sleep problem severity and parental depression, fatigue, sleep, and sleep cognitions compared with controls. This is largely true for myself - sleep training is for the parents to get some semblance of their lives back. The first 3 months of my daughter's life - i'd never been more tired in my life.
saagarjha 3y ago
I mean they cry for all sorts of reasons.
- Cthulhu_ 3y ago
  Even for no reason at all. (disclaimer: I am a former child)
  - brokenmachine 3y ago
    There's always a reason to cry. (source: human)
melvinmelih 3y ago
Just today we were being lectured by our pediatrician that our two year old needs to sleep in her own bed, in her own room. When we asked why, she went on a tangent that parents also need their own sleep and that she did it with her own kids when they were a few months old, and that she couldn't imagine getting much sleep with her kids etc etc. Basically, she didn't have any scientific arguments why it was better for her to sleep separately, other than "that's how things always have been done" and projecting her own preferences onto us.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
  FWIW, doctors have opinions as well. We are all only humans after all. Naturally, we have higher standards for well compensated professionals and we do expect more than platitudes from such professionals. All that said, your experience does bring up an interesting point though. At the end of the day, you are the parent. As it relates to the care for your kid, you outrank them ( with some exceptions, but those usually apply for a very good reason ). They are there to help you make a good decision, but you are not bound by their words. Unfortunately, like in every profession, they can be 'bad' doctors or ones that don't want to learn new things or both. Not to search very far, the sugar debate is now mainstream and doctors I talked to recently acknowledged that a lot of that word of mouth 'there is too much sugar in everything' has a point to it. In their defense, there is a lot of research that supports it now, but how long did it take to make it happen? << today we were being lectured by our pediatrician I hear you. It is an aggravating experience and unless there is a good reason to keep that doctor, I would consider making a change. The relationship should not be an unpleasant one. In my neck of the woods, ours recommended covid shot for our kid on the basis that 'everyone does it'. Before I had a chance to go on a rant, my wife simply said no. There was some back and forth, but no remained a no. I could offer more stories, but I don't really want anyone to extrapolate to some general wisdom. Each case is different and every one of us have to weigh those risks.
- epolanski 3y ago
  There is scientific literature confirming that around 12/18 months child indeed should start sleeping separately from their parents. Actually lots of literature point to much earlier. Children need to develop their self soothing abilities as well as awareness that parents aren't always there already at this crucial age. She wasn't projecting her preferences, it's dangerous to raise over protected children, separation anxiety in infants is normal but the response is to gradually increase the amount of separation week after week. 2 years old sleeping with child might actually be dangerous and I'm surprised hn would upvote a random netizen ignoring a professional's suggestion, only infants should sleep with parents. [1] https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article-abstract/140/1/e20170122/37986/Mother-Infant-Room-Sharing-and-Sleep-Outcomes-in?redirectedFrom=fulltext https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article-abstract/140... [2]https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1087079210001322 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S10870...
A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
I know how we approached it and it was a compromise as me and my spouse come from different worlds culturally. I personally think a lot has to do with 'my cousin/friend/fb friend did x and recommended it'. For a very new parent, it is not unreasonable to seek advice of their peers. In our case compromise was: infant slept with us for a good half of their first year, but we slowly transitioned to a separate room with audio only radio ( no internet connection app craziness ). All that said, we are already an outlier in our social circle that includes parents and about the only ones that have any concern about normalizing surveillance at such a young age ( and even that is mostly based on my preferences -- my SO takes my concerns into account ).
- kstenerud 3y ago
  I had a child in Japan, and so we did it the Japanese way: The child sleeps with the parents until the child eventually decides otherwise.
epolanski 3y ago
Unless you are an expert in child care please don't post factually wrong things. If you are, post scientific articles.
- triyambakam 3y ago
  You must have a tough time here on the internet.
jgilias 3y ago
How many children do you have? From people I know it’s only single-child parents who co-sleep. Reason being, when the next child enters the picture, it’s pretty harsh on the toddler when there’s constant waking up, so having them sleep separately becomes the obviously right thing to do to not mess with their sleep too much. Later on it becomes a question of fairness. ‘Why does X get to sleep with you, but not me?’ One solution would be for everyone to sleep together, but beds have their limits, and I don’t actually know anyone who’d co-sleep with more than one child.
- wiredfool 3y ago
  3. Definitely did co-sleeping with 2 at a time early on.
lucumo 3y ago
Okay, I'll bite. Your just-so statements shouldn't convince anybody of anything, but I'll provide a few points to think about anyway. > I just don't get why you'd even want to sleep separately from your young child. People have different life experiences. It really shouldn't be the first time you hear about people doing things differently than you and still getting similar results. > They cry because they crave physical closeness, physical contact, Yes. They also cry because they're hungry, because their diaper is full and when they are tired. When our kids were babies there were even times they cried because they needed to be left alone. They were overstimulated and we needed to stop trying to help them. > the rhythm of their parents breathing, Can't say I've noticed that one. Seems hard to isolate though. By the time they hear you breathing, they'll feel body heat, see your face and are usually also in your arms and getting some interaction. Not sure how you have determined that it was the breathing that was doing the trick... > just like we've done for millions of years. I can't tell if this is the fallacy of appeal to tradition, the fallacy of appeal to nature, or an equally silly "appeal to evolution". Evolution didn't stop at some magical point in the past. There's no reason why what held back then must still hold now. Nor is longevity of a trait proof of an evolutionary advantage. It just has to not be a disadvantage to stick around. > All you do in denying that is create a lasting distance, nightmares, Funny how neither that "lasting distance" nor the nightmares panned out for our kids, who have slept their entire lives in their own room. Can't say I've noticed those things in many other kids either, which is strange since private rooms are very much the norm around here.

thombles 3y ago

I intentionally picked a DECT audio-only monitor on a shelf of high-tech gizmos. Secure, local, doesn't reward the monkey-brain need to "just check in" like video would, and works without configuration in a different building. Would do it again for sure.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

amelius 3y ago

I'm already being fully parented by Apple, so what difference is more parenting tech going to make?

Lapsa 3y ago
why did you give up?
- amelius 3y ago
  Because it's like beating a dead horse.
- npteljes 3y ago
  I think people deserve better than constantly fighting against their systems. It's belittling, invalidating, insulting. I found that it's healthier instead of this fighting, I come out better to try to accommodate ("When in Rome, do as the Romans do"), or ditch the system/relationship altogether. Fighting against things like Windows telemetry is just yelling at clouds, a losing, uphill battle against something that's out of our control anyways. Very similar to trying to change a toxic person in a relationship.
  - amelius 3y ago
    > Very similar to trying to change a toxic person in a relationship. This is a good comparison, except in the case of the duopoly you have only two people to choose from.
robocat 3y ago
My parents give me more freedom. Apple feels more like a sub-dom relationship - submitting to the nanny. iDevices are constantly correcting me, or preventing me from doing what I want, but I just can’t resist the secure feeling.
- endisneigh 3y ago
  buy android and be free. https://store.google.com/config/pixel_7_pro?selections=eyJkOCI6ImNHbDRaV3hmTjE5d2NtOD0ifQ%3D%3D https://store.google.com/config/pixel_7_pro?selections=eyJkO...

threatofrain 3y ago

> The convergence of parental anxiety and tech access can extend surveillant care into a total system, reaching past the baby and any employee in the home or daycare center to the street beyond. Increasingly, technophilic and/or anxious families are turning to websites like Nextdoor and smart home systems like Alexa, Google Home, Nest Cams, and Ring, not only to help with domestic management but to reinforce the barrier between the outside and the inside, keeping the outside out. These technologies slip from self-surveillance (when should I reorder my groceries?) to familial surveillance (what is my child watching?) to surveilling anyone who might come into contact with one’s children. The battle for the hearts of parents is already concluded. Now Amazon and such just need to unveil consumer tech which is good enough. The idea that you can have a camera on your front door to see everyone is appealing to way too many people.

HowardStark 3y ago
Is there a way to walk it all back? It’s an issue that worries me to almost no end. Idealistically, I might say education could solve it, except that I see this huge lapse of empathy on the subject of surveillance that makes the education impractical past a point.
- Clubber 3y ago
  No, I don't see a way without legislation, and I don't see that happening without a significant event. Having said that, ring doorbells are useful in finding people who try to break into homes and commit other crimes. Aiden Fucci was convicted with help of a Ring camera. I'm sure his victim's parents are grateful. https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/crime/2023/03/23/aiden-fucci-florida-murder-killing-tristyn-bailey/70040639007/ https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/crime/2023/03/23/aid...
engeljohnb 3y ago
> The idea that you can have a camera on your front door to see everyone is appealing to way too many people. That kind of thinking was easy for me back when I was living in a safe area. Now I've had to move to a sketchy neighborhood, and if "surveillance" helps to keep my girlfriend from being r----, that's an acceptable tradeoff for me at this time.

derelicta 3y ago

24/7 surveillance of individuals is just becoming culturally accepted. A terrible example, but a real one, is my grandma: she lives alone back in Colombia, and due to the fact most of her family is abroad, her grandchildren decided to pay a company to install cameras in every room of the house (except the bathroom) as to make sure we can all monitor her, "just in case". My attempts at convincing them a simple fall detection bracelet was sufficient were in vain, and my whole family doesn't see the issue, for it is "only for her own safety".

rightbyte 3y ago
You are very correct. The slippery bathroom is also the place you want an alarm system ...
- namelessoracle 3y ago
  24/7 surveillance except where/when you need it to the most sums up so much of our world today.
auggierose 3y ago
I hope she is aware of this surveillance and agreed to it?
- sobkas 3y ago
  > I hope she is aware of this surveillance and agreed to it? Or how easy this footage could be sold or leaked?
lynx23 3y ago
This is only really a problem if she was patronized and/or coerced into this. The line is sometimes hard to draw, but this is where the problem begins.
andrepd 3y ago
I always thought that the compromise, vis a vis CCTV surveillance of public places, was to have the camera record to an encrypted storage that is only unlocked with a judicial warrant, just like a regular physical search needs a warrant. You get the security of knowing criminals have their actions recorded, but you avoid the privacy catastrophe of being recorded 24/7 no matter where you go.

nahnahg 3y ago

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