5 ms·

> just to make existing CPUs obsolete and keep Intel in business. Bizarre take. It's not random, it's specifically CPUs that support modern hardware security m

by Hawxy 3y ago

> just to make existing CPUs obsolete and keep Intel in business. Bizarre take. It's not random, it's specifically CPUs that support modern hardware security mitigations + features. There's a pretty great talk from Bluehat a few days ago that goes into why Microsoft is doing this: https://youtu.be/8T6ClX-y2AE https://youtu.be/8T6ClX-y2AE

dataflow 3y ago
See the last paragraph. At best it's half-plausible deniability. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/08/why-windows-11-has-such-strict-hardware-requirements-according-to-microsoft/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/08/why-windows-11-has-s...
- Hawxy 3y ago
  The last paragraph is a little strange as Microsoft explained its reasoning the day before: https://blogs.windows.com/windows-insider/2021/08/27/update-on-windows-11-minimum-system-requirements-and-the-pc-health-check-app/ https://blogs.windows.com/windows-insider/2021/08/27/update-... It only added 7th gen processors that have DCH driver support, which is the absolute minimum baseline for W11 support.
  - dataflow 3y ago
    I find it quite interesting how they whitelisted their own Surface devices but not, say, Thinkpads, despite them having the same CPUs. [1] Surely there's no conflict of interest here. Could you explain in what way "DCH driver support" is a "hardware security mitigation" as you wrote? Moreover, doesn't basing this on "DCH driver support" basically let the hardware vendors decide which otherwise-capable CPUs they'd like to make obsolete through software updates? And furthermore, note that the OS isn't even turning on the CPU features they require by default, as the article also mentions. (I'm probably going to just leave it at this, but suffice it to say the evidence doesn't seem in their favor.) [1] https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/ThinkPad-T400-T500-and-newer-T-series-Laptops/T470p-Intel-i7-7820HQ-Not-Compatible-With-windows-11/m-p/5153393 https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/ThinkPad-T400-T500-and-newer-T-...
    - coder543 3y ago
      > I find it quite interesting how they whitelisted their own Surface devices but not, say, Thinkpads, despite them having the same CPUs. [1] Surely there's no conflict of interest here. That statement seems misleading at best. According to Microsoft's page[0] on that processor, the Dell Precision 5520 is supported as well, which means this support is clearly not limited to Microsoft's own hardware. Depending on how Lenovo configured the BIOS, it is entirely possible that they disabled certain features that Microsoft deemed critical later on with Windows 11. Vendors do plenty of weird things with BIOSes, which can have far reaching impacts on what an operating system is able to do with the hardware. Or Lenovo didn't provide a necessary driver, or whatever the actual problem was here. Dell managed to meet the requirements just fine, apparently. Yes, obsoleting a bunch of hardware sucks, but your claim that this was to help Intel sell more chips is extremely dubious. Your claim that Microsoft isn't doing this for security reasons because they're exempting only their own hardware doesn't mesh with the reality of that Dell laptop. None of the evidence here supports some grand conspiracy here, as far as I can tell. I also found a forum thread[1] where at least one person was struggling to update their Surface Studio 2 to Windows 11, so even that hardly seems cut and dry. [0]: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/supported/supported-systems https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/mi... [1]: https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/forum/all/windows-11-upgrade-fails-on-compatible-surface/f8632a17-b731-4625-ae4d-36ef6e4e04d4 https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/forum/all/window...
      - dataflow 3y ago
        Any responses to the other things I listed? Like how DCH driver packaging is a hardware security mitigation? > Depending on BIOS settings, it is entirely possible "Entirely possible" is quite a big umbrella that covers planned obsolescence quite well, too. It's not like using software to make hardware obsolete is lacking in historical precedent. > There isn't some grand conspiracy here, as far as I can tell. Well, it's "entirely possible", as far as I can tell. Though I'm not even claiming there is one - there isn't a particular need for a conspiracy here. > I also found an entire forum thread[1] of people struggling to update a Surface Studio 2 to Windows 11, so even that hardly seems cut and dry. All of those comments were posted in the span of the first 4 days Windows 11 was officially released. If you dig a bit more you see people have succeeded afterward. [1] So that was most likely just a bug on their side, which isn't surprising given their own device was an edge case they were trying to make an exception for. [1] https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/windows-11/windows-11-on-surface-studio-2/m-p/3164819/highlight/true#M2605 https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/windows-11/windows-11...
  - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
    > It only added 7th gen processors that have DCH driver support, which is the absolute minimum baseline for W11 support. I'm typing this on a T430 with an i7-3632QM running Win 11. The stupid thing is I never wanted Win 11 on it. MS suckered me into installing Windows 10 update ver 22000 (just after ver 19043) which didn't mention anything about Win 11.
    - Dalewyn 3y ago
      >Windows 10 update ver 22000 (just after ver 19043) which didn't mention anything about Win 11. That's because those are NT kernel version numbers, not Windows marketing version numbers. Windows 10 and 11 both identify internally as NT10.0.X.Y where the X and Y are the specific build numbers.
    - Kwpolska 3y ago
      Windows updates aren't advertised by the build number, at least if you're using release versions (no idea about the insider program).
  - NayamAmarshe 3y ago
    No amount of reasoning is enough to justify that on consumer PCs, where the users don't know any better, TPM and other software side requirements were this necessary and not optional. So suddenly, all the Windows 10 computers are insecure or what? A normal person looking at "Windows 11 is not supported on your device" WILL think that their hardware is not good enough to run the authoritative OS. This is less about security and more about planning a strategy to sell more devices. Anybody denying this possibility is just ignoring on purpose. Here, I am not actually arguing against the addition of TPM or anything. I am arguing against them being a fixed requirement to run the OS that would otherwise run without any issues because it quite literally is a Windows 10 reskin, nothing more. This is proven by the fact that they broke their own requirements on their own surface devices. Which tells me that this is less about them being serious about security and more about declaring most fairly recent hardware obsolete. It's anti-consumer at best and deceitful attempt to sell more computers to non-tech folks at worst.
  - MikusR 3y ago
    https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000058295/graphics.html https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000... "Intel® 6th Generation Core Processors or Newer Processors are supported by Windows DCH Drivers."
Dylan16807 3y ago
It's a neat little mitigation but it's ridiculous to label it necessary for a consumer OS and obsolete hundreds of millions of computers.
- charcircuit 3y ago
  It's pointless for a consumer OS unless most users support it. There will need to be a version that requires it sooner or later.
  - Dylan16807 3y ago
    Having most users support it is largely just a matter of time. Screwing over a ton of people people because you want to make "most" happen a year sooner is not a good thing. Tens of millions of people are going to be forced out of perfectly good hardware years before they would have normally switched. Or left without necessary patches.
    - Dalewyn 3y ago
      Intel Coffee Lake and AMD Zen+ came out around 2017/2018, that's 5 to 6 years ago. I'm not even getting into processors that precede them. I'm well aware computing power for practical use cases has plateaued since around 2011, but those Coffee Lake and Zen+ systems (let alone older) are coming due for replacement/upgrade soon for anyone inside of a lifecycle cadence whether Windows 11 demanded it or not. For anyone who isn't who cares about hanging on to old hardware, it's perfectly fine to just keep running Windows 10. All those guys saying "yOuR sYStEM iS iNSeCurE!!1!1!1" are snake oil merchants wanting to sell you something.
      - TeMPOraL 3y ago
        > For anyone who isn't who cares about hanging on to old hardware, it's perfectly fine to just keep running Windows 10. Increasingly hard to get this days, especially through official channels. Currently, Microsoft actively prevents you from getting a Win10 installer/image, by redirecting all the relevant links to Windows 11 pages. > All those guys saying "yOuR sYStEM iS iNSeCurE!!1!1!1" are snake oil merchants wanting to sell you something. You mean like Microsoft? Saying that the new system is more secure is equivalent to saying your old system is insecure, given everyone's insistence that you either are fully secured or not at all.

by Hawxy 3y ago

dataflow 3y ago

See the last paragraph. At best it's half-plausible deniability. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/08/why-windows-11-has-such-strict-hardware-requirements-according-to-microsoft/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/08/why-windows-11-has-s...

Hawxy 3y ago
The last paragraph is a little strange as Microsoft explained its reasoning the day before: https://blogs.windows.com/windows-insider/2021/08/27/update-on-windows-11-minimum-system-requirements-and-the-pc-health-check-app/ https://blogs.windows.com/windows-insider/2021/08/27/update-... It only added 7th gen processors that have DCH driver support, which is the absolute minimum baseline for W11 support.
- dataflow 3y ago
  I find it quite interesting how they whitelisted their own Surface devices but not, say, Thinkpads, despite them having the same CPUs. [1] Surely there's no conflict of interest here. Could you explain in what way "DCH driver support" is a "hardware security mitigation" as you wrote? Moreover, doesn't basing this on "DCH driver support" basically let the hardware vendors decide which otherwise-capable CPUs they'd like to make obsolete through software updates? And furthermore, note that the OS isn't even turning on the CPU features they require by default, as the article also mentions. (I'm probably going to just leave it at this, but suffice it to say the evidence doesn't seem in their favor.) [1] https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/ThinkPad-T400-T500-and-newer-T-series-Laptops/T470p-Intel-i7-7820HQ-Not-Compatible-With-windows-11/m-p/5153393 https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/ThinkPad-T400-T500-and-newer-T-...
  - coder543 3y ago
    > I find it quite interesting how they whitelisted their own Surface devices but not, say, Thinkpads, despite them having the same CPUs. [1] Surely there's no conflict of interest here. That statement seems misleading at best. According to Microsoft's page[0] on that processor, the Dell Precision 5520 is supported as well, which means this support is clearly not limited to Microsoft's own hardware. Depending on how Lenovo configured the BIOS, it is entirely possible that they disabled certain features that Microsoft deemed critical later on with Windows 11. Vendors do plenty of weird things with BIOSes, which can have far reaching impacts on what an operating system is able to do with the hardware. Or Lenovo didn't provide a necessary driver, or whatever the actual problem was here. Dell managed to meet the requirements just fine, apparently. Yes, obsoleting a bunch of hardware sucks, but your claim that this was to help Intel sell more chips is extremely dubious. Your claim that Microsoft isn't doing this for security reasons because they're exempting only their own hardware doesn't mesh with the reality of that Dell laptop. None of the evidence here supports some grand conspiracy here, as far as I can tell. I also found a forum thread[1] where at least one person was struggling to update their Surface Studio 2 to Windows 11, so even that hardly seems cut and dry. [0]: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/supported/supported-systems https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/mi... [1]: https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/forum/all/windows-11-upgrade-fails-on-compatible-surface/f8632a17-b731-4625-ae4d-36ef6e4e04d4 https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/forum/all/window...
    - dataflow 3y ago
      Any responses to the other things I listed? Like how DCH driver packaging is a hardware security mitigation? > Depending on BIOS settings, it is entirely possible "Entirely possible" is quite a big umbrella that covers planned obsolescence quite well, too. It's not like using software to make hardware obsolete is lacking in historical precedent. > There isn't some grand conspiracy here, as far as I can tell. Well, it's "entirely possible", as far as I can tell. Though I'm not even claiming there is one - there isn't a particular need for a conspiracy here. > I also found an entire forum thread[1] of people struggling to update a Surface Studio 2 to Windows 11, so even that hardly seems cut and dry. All of those comments were posted in the span of the first 4 days Windows 11 was officially released. If you dig a bit more you see people have succeeded afterward. [1] So that was most likely just a bug on their side, which isn't surprising given their own device was an edge case they were trying to make an exception for. [1] https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/windows-11/windows-11-on-surface-studio-2/m-p/3164819/highlight/true#M2605 https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/windows-11/windows-11...
- WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
  > It only added 7th gen processors that have DCH driver support, which is the absolute minimum baseline for W11 support. I'm typing this on a T430 with an i7-3632QM running Win 11. The stupid thing is I never wanted Win 11 on it. MS suckered me into installing Windows 10 update ver 22000 (just after ver 19043) which didn't mention anything about Win 11.
  - Dalewyn 3y ago
    >Windows 10 update ver 22000 (just after ver 19043) which didn't mention anything about Win 11. That's because those are NT kernel version numbers, not Windows marketing version numbers. Windows 10 and 11 both identify internally as NT10.0.X.Y where the X and Y are the specific build numbers.
  - Kwpolska 3y ago
    Windows updates aren't advertised by the build number, at least if you're using release versions (no idea about the insider program).
- NayamAmarshe 3y ago
  No amount of reasoning is enough to justify that on consumer PCs, where the users don't know any better, TPM and other software side requirements were this necessary and not optional. So suddenly, all the Windows 10 computers are insecure or what? A normal person looking at "Windows 11 is not supported on your device" WILL think that their hardware is not good enough to run the authoritative OS. This is less about security and more about planning a strategy to sell more devices. Anybody denying this possibility is just ignoring on purpose. Here, I am not actually arguing against the addition of TPM or anything. I am arguing against them being a fixed requirement to run the OS that would otherwise run without any issues because it quite literally is a Windows 10 reskin, nothing more. This is proven by the fact that they broke their own requirements on their own surface devices. Which tells me that this is less about them being serious about security and more about declaring most fairly recent hardware obsolete. It's anti-consumer at best and deceitful attempt to sell more computers to non-tech folks at worst.
- MikusR 3y ago
  https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000058295/graphics.html https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000... "Intel® 6th Generation Core Processors or Newer Processors are supported by Windows DCH Drivers."

Dylan16807 3y ago

It's a neat little mitigation but it's ridiculous to label it necessary for a consumer OS and obsolete hundreds of millions of computers.

charcircuit 3y ago
It's pointless for a consumer OS unless most users support it. There will need to be a version that requires it sooner or later.
- Dylan16807 3y ago
  Having most users support it is largely just a matter of time. Screwing over a ton of people people because you want to make "most" happen a year sooner is not a good thing. Tens of millions of people are going to be forced out of perfectly good hardware years before they would have normally switched. Or left without necessary patches.
  - Dalewyn 3y ago
    Intel Coffee Lake and AMD Zen+ came out around 2017/2018, that's 5 to 6 years ago. I'm not even getting into processors that precede them. I'm well aware computing power for practical use cases has plateaued since around 2011, but those Coffee Lake and Zen+ systems (let alone older) are coming due for replacement/upgrade soon for anyone inside of a lifecycle cadence whether Windows 11 demanded it or not. For anyone who isn't who cares about hanging on to old hardware, it's perfectly fine to just keep running Windows 10. All those guys saying "yOuR sYStEM iS iNSeCurE!!1!1!1" are snake oil merchants wanting to sell you something.
    - TeMPOraL 3y ago
      > For anyone who isn't who cares about hanging on to old hardware, it's perfectly fine to just keep running Windows 10. Increasingly hard to get this days, especially through official channels. Currently, Microsoft actively prevents you from getting a Win10 installer/image, by redirecting all the relevant links to Windows 11 pages. > All those guys saying "yOuR sYStEM iS iNSeCurE!!1!1!1" are snake oil merchants wanting to sell you something. You mean like Microsoft? Saying that the new system is more secure is equivalent to saying your old system is insecure, given everyone's insistence that you either are fully secured or not at all.